This week's Hard Knocks and the QB discussions had me thinking about 2004. Obviously lots of differences (e.g. new head coach in 2004 with Coughlin) and some similarities (e.g. multiple highly rated QBs in the draft) between 2004 and 2024.
The fact that the Giants couldn't work out a trade before the draft or before the first pick was made on draft day, took a different QB rather than drafting a non-QB (as they did in 2024) or didn't trade down was of interest.
I had to go back and review the chronology of 2004 relative to Kerry Collins and Kurt Warner.
NEW YORK, April 28 (UPI) -- The NFL's New York Giants Wednesday released Kerry Collins, their starting quarterback since 1999.
[The Giants acquired quarterback Eli Manning, the No. 1 pick in the 2004 draft last week, and the 31-year-old Collins refused to accept a pay cut to stay with the team. |
How Daniel Jones would have reacted if the Giants had been successful trading up for Maye or had taken McCarthy/Penix/Nix at 6th we'll never know. Salary cap considerations mean Jones couldn't be released as Collins was.
and
| While no one knew it at the time, the story still had years to go before its conclusion. On June 1, 2004, the Rams released veteran quarterback Kurt Warner. |
and
| Just two days after being released by the St. Louis Rams, Kurt Warner signed a one-year, $3 million contract with the New York Giants, a deal that included a second-year option worth twice that amount. |
So Kurt Warner came to Giants after Eli was drafted, so he knew he was likely a "one year rental". Might the Giants have tried to sign Warner anyway to compete against Collins?
I'll keep my What If to Collins, since he was still the Giants QB when Eli was drafted. My What If seeks to compare the "move on from our current QB" decision in 2004 versus the "stick with our current QB" for at least one more year decision made in 2024.
I know this is very likely a futile request, but I'd like to keep the extreme Dan Jones Haters Club and the Daniel Jones Fan Club millering out of the discussion.
For reference, here's the top 12 picks in the 2004 draft:
1 San Diego Chargers Eli Manning QB
2 Oakland Raiders Robert Gallery OT
3 Arizona Cardinals Larry Fitzgerald WR
4 New York Giants Philip Rivers QB
5 Washington Redskins Sean Taylor S
6 Cleveland Browns Kellen Winslow II TE
7 Detroit Lions Roy Williams WR
8 Atlanta Falcons DeAngelo Hall CB
9 Jacksonville Jaguars Reggie Williams WR
10 Houston Texans Dunta Robinson CB
11 Pittsburgh Steelers Ben Roethlisberger QB
12 New York Jets Jonathan Vilma LB |
In the 2024 draft, there were several players (M Harrison, M Nabers) rated as high as the "2nd Tier QBs" (McCarthy, Nix & Penix) by many.
So Eli, Gallery and Fitzgerald are off the board. You're Accorsi & Coughlin, your brains have been altered to stick with Kerry Collins:
1) Who do you pick at 4th overall (trying to use the "conventional wisdom" of the time, not 20/20 hindsight)?
2) Does the player you take in 2004 have the buzz / potential that Nabers has in 2024?
I chose to not dig into the Giants 2004 roster, just going from memory. The Giants had Shockey at TE and Toomer and Hilliard at WR, with Tiki at RB. So drafting Winslow or Roy Williams seems unlikely based on need at least.
Seems like you either take De Angelo Hall (don't recall the 2004 CBs) or Sean Taylor.
I don't see offensive line talent worthy of the 4th overall pick.
My bottom line is there was more non-QB talent in the top 10 in 2024 than there was in 2004 (only time will tell). Since the Giants did want to move off of Collins in 2004, it would also be interesting to see how Rivers would have done in NY. I don't think either Rivers or Big Ben had the personality for the NY market.
Anyway, an exercise for the "minimal news" portion of the offseason.
And then I imagine they pick Rodgers in the 2005 draft.
The offensive line would likely still be a weak point.
In hindsight, I would not want a rapist on the Giants under any circumstances.
Some media were saying he would “change the position” in an LT like way. I think that would have been the pick.
As good as it turned out with Eli, that's a scenario that might have been as good or better. Subtracting that Roth was an asshole rapist, of course...
First you have to remember that Eli was not likely to be available to us since we were picking at 4. But there were lots of Eli v. Ben debates nonetheless. Basically nobody thought Rivers was good.
The big debates were QB vs. Gallery vs. Taylor. And a little bit of Fitz. Gallery had huge support here.
And there were plenty of people who wanted to keep Collins. It had been long time since the Giants had a dangerous downfield passing game. Really, 2002 might have been the best, most exciting Giants offense we had ever seen. It was not crazy to want to keep Collins and build around him.
That draft was so deeply discussed and debated. I learned a lot from it and it's still very interesting to analyze.
This. I was disappointed that KC wanted out, but totally understood it.
Quote:
and especially in hindsight. Non-QB answer is Taylor. He was talked about as possibly the best overall player in that class.
In hindsight, I would not want a rapist on the Giants under any circumstances.
No one would Galahad, it's a point that really shouldn't need to be mentioned. This thread was a hypothetical about the 2004 draft which to that point was merely about player skill and roster building. You're a great guy tho.
I think Collins could have been everything Daboll wants in a QB. They may have been looking for a QB to groom to replace Collins over the next 3-4 seasons but not looking for someone to be the 2024 starter if Collins flopped.
First you have to remember that Eli was not likely to be available to us since we were picking at 4. But there were lots of Eli v. Ben debates nonetheless. Basically nobody thought Rivers was good.
The big debates were QB vs. Gallery vs. Taylor. And a little bit of Fitz. Gallery had huge support here.
And there were plenty of people who wanted to keep Collins. It had been long time since the Giants had a dangerous downfield passing game. Really, 2002 might have been the best, most exciting Giants offense we had ever seen. It was not crazy to want to keep Collins and build around him.
That draft was so deeply discussed and debated. I learned a lot from it and it's still very interesting to analyze.
The 2002 team is one of my all-time favorites, especially on offense
I loved Collins though. Dude had a cannon. Of course he wasn't mobile @ all so he needed a good OL to keep him clean.
I loved Collins though. Dude had a cannon. Of course he wasn't mobile @ all so he needed a good OL to keep him clean.
I really liked Kerry also and wanted to keep him in 2004 and rebuild the O-Line starting with Robert Gallery however there’s absolutely no way he would have been able to do with Eli did in those two incredible Super Bowl wins
As for Gallery, that would have been a disaster, especially if we traded up for him. The only other player I viewed as worthy of that pick was Taylor and I'm not sure I would have gone S there.
As for Collins himself, I loved him and I respect the Hell out of him. But, I also think he already took the Giants as far as he could and it was time to move on, especially with a new coach. To me the biggest question is not should we have drafted a QB to replace him, but rather would we have been better with him returning as the #1 to mentor the rookie? Warner was a nice bridge to keep us competitive, but he was not a great mentor.
This is an interesting conversation. But, I was thrilled once we had Manning in tow and love the career he had.
The bigger disappointment was how the Giants squandered his last years here with bad drafting and bad HC coaching after TC.
The bigger disappointment was how the Giants squandered his last years here with bad drafting and bad HC coaching after TC.