He’s added a 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 6, and a 7. He’s also added some decent vets. It a brand new secondary. They are probably a year away but pretty solid potential. He may need another high pick at CB but we’ll have to wait for that. Interested to see if guys like Flott, Nubin, Phillips, Belton display some real promise. The later pick like Hawkins and Owens as well. Lots to root for.
not necessarily in good ways. He's athletic, very long, too long imy since his rookie season. He's fast but his long frame is not suited to getting to top speed to keep up with fast WRs and his length also mitigates vs twitchiness. I thought his use in the slot was desperation last year--it didn't last. He's better on the boundary but still prone to get beaten by quickness.
In this vein I thought it was telling, in Eric's breakdown, when asked if he thought Bowen's system of more zone reliance (vs Wink's mtm) was more suited to his skillset: Flott's reply, oh yeah. I think Flott's 'skillset' might be better at S, problems there being it's crowded there and Flott is just not a good or reliable tackler. Might prove to be Schoen's poorest draft pick given where he was taken. all imv of course
The good news here is that there’s a lot of talent to work with. An amazingly young unit which inevitably will make mistakes, especially operating in a new system, but I expect the talent to eventually gel.
RE: It seems to me much depends on the pressure the Giants put on the QB
Todays NFL has made it too easy for the offense to throw the ball.
The Giants have young players with good to great traits.
I fear some mistakes will have some wide open WRs, but hopefully the mistakes will lessen and the backfield will get better and better.
The key is getting the QB under duress
Yup. It's all about the pass rush. If you pressure the QB with four, the manpower advantage alone covers up a host of sins; so does QB making the secondary cover less space for longer.
W're in OK shape at worst - too much talent amongst a lot of unproven players, or proven JAGs, for it not to get sorted.
the lines of what the coaches and players are saying, this is a massive scheme switch from Wink to Bowen that is likely going to take some time, as most of the DB's are the same.
I agree with Aaron Robinson as the darkhorse. Bowen's scheme is similar to Patrick Graham's, which Robinson was drafted for and acquitting himself well. The team was giving him a large role when he was available. Assuming health, Robinson is probably the most talented guy to start at CB2. Fits what Bowen says he wants.
Also wouldn't mind seeing him tried at S if CB isn't in the cards.
the lines of what the coaches and players are saying, this is a massive scheme switch from Wink to Bowen that is likely going to take some time, as most of the DB's are the same.
I agree with Aaron Robinson as the darkhorse. Bowen's scheme is similar to Patrick Graham's, which Robinson was drafted for and acquitting himself well. The team was giving him a large role when he was available. Assuming health, Robinson is probably the most talented guy to start at CB2. Fits what Bowen says he wants.
Also wouldn't mind seeing him tried at S if CB isn't in the cards.
We have to hope someone will emerge as a reliable #2 CB. I think someone will. I'm encouraged by who we have, but this will be one of the more intriguing stories in camp. And as others have noted, having a better pass rush with Burns should also help our secondary.
not necessarily in good ways. He's athletic, very long, too long imy since his rookie season. He's fast but his long frame is not suited to getting to top speed to keep up with fast WRs and his length also mitigates vs twitchiness. I thought his use in the slot was desperation last year--it didn't last. He's better on the boundary but still prone to get beaten by quickness.
In this vein I thought it was telling, in Eric's breakdown, when asked if he thought Bowen's system of more zone reliance (vs Wink's mtm) was more suited to his skillset: Flott's reply, oh yeah. I think Flott's 'skillset' might be better at S, problems there being it's crowded there and Flott is just not a good or reliable tackler. Might prove to be Schoen's poorest draft pick given where he was taken. all imv of course
I like Flott on the outside more than you do. At his size, safety is not an option
but I can't remember too many Giants teams that had the kind of depth at 3-4-5-6 they have.
Flott, McCloud, Robinson, Hawkins, Herndon, Phillips and Holmes.
With Banks, they've got 7 or 8 CBs on the roster that are NFL-calibre. I've been following the Giants a long time and I can't recall having this kind of depth.
everyone is cluing in on the need for tackling from CB's and even more so with the the Nickel.
In addition to that the thing that will be important is with the safeties getting the correct drops in the match up zone.
While I like the aggressive play of Belton and Pinnock I'm not sure how they will fair in a more calculated scheme. I know Nubin is here for this scheme but that's a lot for a rookie. Boy would it be nice if they paired Mckinney with Nubin.
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot.
I also feel we will get a lot of Mcloud on early downs and against more physical Wrs.
everyone is cluing in on the need for tackling from CB's and even more so with the the Nickel.
In addition to that the thing that will be important is with the safeties getting the correct drops in the match up zone.
While I like the aggressive play of Belton and Pinnock I'm not sure how they will fair in a more calculated scheme. I know Nubin is here for this scheme but that's a lot for a rookie. Boy would it be nice if they paired Mckinney with Nubin.
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot.
I also feel we will get a lot of Mcloud on early downs and against more physical Wrs.
I've harped on this a bit with my position previews, but the sum doesn't equal the parts. We have good run defenders on the defensive line, but our run defense sucked. People either were not in their gaps or we need to look in other places (linebackers and defensive backs). I suspect the defensive backs were a bigger problem than most realize.
that the Giants were able to secure depth/stop gaps veterans (Herndon & Mills) which they couldn't do in 2023. I suspect that they will help make the defensive system change over less painful.
Having said that, the only two players I have confidence in are Banks and Pinnock.
However, I do think there's potential in the room. Like Eric said, it's hard to predict how the DBs will function in a new system - we'll find out soon enough.
everyone is cluing in on the need for tackling from CB's and even more so with the the Nickel. ....
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot....
Good thoughts...last camp I was way high on "Houston, we've got a problem...", but if he doesn't get on the field soon, his hamstring is going to qualify for the ring of physical dishonor alongside ARob's repaired knee.
In vein of making plays, McCloud does, think DBs coach trusts him.
T
Banks - top 5 CB by 2025
Flott - legit #2 CB
Phillips - great slot CB
Hawkins - good #1 CB/ very good safety
McCloud - floor - below average #2CB
Ceiling - above average #2 CB
Nubin - i’ve heard several pundits say he could be better than McKinney
Belton - starter
Owens - really showed something before he got hurt - starter
Pinnock - already legit starter with room to improve
everyone is cluing in on the need for tackling from CB's and even more so with the the Nickel.
In addition to that the thing that will be important is with the safeties getting the correct drops in the match up zone.
While I like the aggressive play of Belton and Pinnock I'm not sure how they will fair in a more calculated scheme. I know Nubin is here for this scheme but that's a lot for a rookie. Boy would it be nice if they paired Mckinney with Nubin.
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot.
I also feel we will get a lot of Mcloud on early downs and against more physical Wrs.
I've harped on this a bit with my position previews, but the sum doesn't equal the parts. We have good run defenders on the defensive line, but our run defense sucked. People either were not in their gaps or we need to look in other places (linebackers and defensive backs). I suspect the defensive backs were a bigger problem than most realize.
Regarding the run defense, is it possibly the outside linebackers? One of the problems under Wink was that the edges/outside linebackers were standing most of the time, meaning they'd lose leverage out of the gate and could be forced out of position.
The Giants have young players with good to great traits.
I fear some mistakes will have some wide open WRs, but hopefully the mistakes will lessen and the backfield will get better and better.
The key is getting the QB under duress
In this vein I thought it was telling, in Eric's breakdown, when asked if he thought Bowen's system of more zone reliance (vs Wink's mtm) was more suited to his skillset: Flott's reply, oh yeah. I think Flott's 'skillset' might be better at S, problems there being it's crowded there and Flott is just not a good or reliable tackler. Might prove to be Schoen's poorest draft pick given where he was taken. all imv of course
The Giants have young players with good to great traits.
I fear some mistakes will have some wide open WRs, but hopefully the mistakes will lessen and the backfield will get better and better.
The key is getting the QB under duress
Yup. It's all about the pass rush. If you pressure the QB with four, the manpower advantage alone covers up a host of sins; so does QB making the secondary cover less space for longer.
W're in OK shape at worst - too much talent amongst a lot of unproven players, or proven JAGs, for it not to get sorted.
I agree with Aaron Robinson as the darkhorse. Bowen's scheme is similar to Patrick Graham's, which Robinson was drafted for and acquitting himself well. The team was giving him a large role when he was available. Assuming health, Robinson is probably the most talented guy to start at CB2. Fits what Bowen says he wants.
Also wouldn't mind seeing him tried at S if CB isn't in the cards.
I agree with Aaron Robinson as the darkhorse. Bowen's scheme is similar to Patrick Graham's, which Robinson was drafted for and acquitting himself well. The team was giving him a large role when he was available. Assuming health, Robinson is probably the most talented guy to start at CB2. Fits what Bowen says he wants.
Also wouldn't mind seeing him tried at S if CB isn't in the cards.
Problem is his knee may be shot.
We have to hope someone will emerge as a reliable #2 CB. I think someone will. I'm encouraged by who we have, but this will be one of the more intriguing stories in camp. And as others have noted, having a better pass rush with Burns should also help our secondary.
In this vein I thought it was telling, in Eric's breakdown, when asked if he thought Bowen's system of more zone reliance (vs Wink's mtm) was more suited to his skillset: Flott's reply, oh yeah. I think Flott's 'skillset' might be better at S, problems there being it's crowded there and Flott is just not a good or reliable tackler. Might prove to be Schoen's poorest draft pick given where he was taken. all imv of course
I like Flott on the outside more than you do. At his size, safety is not an option
Flott, McCloud, Robinson, Hawkins, Herndon, Phillips and Holmes.
With Banks, they've got 7 or 8 CBs on the roster that are NFL-calibre. I've been following the Giants a long time and I can't recall having this kind of depth.
I can also be convinced a few of these guys are going to take a step forward and we'll have a really good secondary.
I'm praying option 2 is what we see, but both are equally probable.
Woudld he be a cheap insurance policy for our DB group or would he be pushing out a better player at this point if he returned?
Just curious.
In addition to that the thing that will be important is with the safeties getting the correct drops in the match up zone.
While I like the aggressive play of Belton and Pinnock I'm not sure how they will fair in a more calculated scheme. I know Nubin is here for this scheme but that's a lot for a rookie. Boy would it be nice if they paired Mckinney with Nubin.
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot.
I also feel we will get a lot of Mcloud on early downs and against more physical Wrs.
In addition to that the thing that will be important is with the safeties getting the correct drops in the match up zone.
While I like the aggressive play of Belton and Pinnock I'm not sure how they will fair in a more calculated scheme. I know Nubin is here for this scheme but that's a lot for a rookie. Boy would it be nice if they paired Mckinney with Nubin.
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot.
I also feel we will get a lot of Mcloud on early downs and against more physical Wrs.
I've harped on this a bit with my position previews, but the sum doesn't equal the parts. We have good run defenders on the defensive line, but our run defense sucked. People either were not in their gaps or we need to look in other places (linebackers and defensive backs). I suspect the defensive backs were a bigger problem than most realize.
2- Have an elite QB
For 1 - we need these alter round picks to develop. The only way to do that, used to play them. If they suck…. #2
For 2- You need to be picking up the very top of the draft
Having said that, the only two players I have confidence in are Banks and Pinnock.
However, I do think there's potential in the room. Like Eric said, it's hard to predict how the DBs will function in a new system - we'll find out soon enough.
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot....
Good thoughts...last camp I was way high on "Houston, we've got a problem...", but if he doesn't get on the field soon, his hamstring is going to qualify for the ring of physical dishonor alongside ARob's repaired knee.
In vein of making plays, McCloud does, think DBs coach trusts him.
T
Banks - top 5 CB by 2025
Flott - legit #2 CB
Phillips - great slot CB
Hawkins - good #1 CB/ very good safety
McCloud - floor - below average #2CB
Ceiling - above average #2 CB
Belton - starter
Owens - really showed something before he got hurt - starter
Pinnock - already legit starter with room to improve
Quote:
everyone is cluing in on the need for tackling from CB's and even more so with the the Nickel.
In addition to that the thing that will be important is with the safeties getting the correct drops in the match up zone.
While I like the aggressive play of Belton and Pinnock I'm not sure how they will fair in a more calculated scheme. I know Nubin is here for this scheme but that's a lot for a rookie. Boy would it be nice if they paired Mckinney with Nubin.
I wouldn't rule out Owens making the team. He doesn't have stand out physical traits but he finds ways to make plays by reading the play and being in the right spot.
I also feel we will get a lot of Mcloud on early downs and against more physical Wrs.
I've harped on this a bit with my position previews, but the sum doesn't equal the parts. We have good run defenders on the defensive line, but our run defense sucked. People either were not in their gaps or we need to look in other places (linebackers and defensive backs). I suspect the defensive backs were a bigger problem than most realize.
Regarding the run defense, is it possibly the outside linebackers? One of the problems under Wink was that the edges/outside linebackers were standing most of the time, meaning they'd lose leverage out of the gate and could be forced out of position.