There was another thread which apparently got deleted, but it had to do with a Philly sports radio host saying it was a dick move by the Giants to make public the phone conversation between Schoen and Barkley. I'm not sure how these things work, but it's likely (at least in my mind) that airing it was approved of by Barkley and his agent. I only say this because it was mentioned in another video I watched (I can't recall which one) that the Commanders got approval from Howie Roseman before posting the "you're a pain in the ass" video clip. I don't know if it's a courtesy or a requirement, but I don't think the Giants would allow HBO to air that phone conversation without first running it by Barkley and his agent.
p.s.--If this was already discussed in the thread that got deleted, I will delete this one as well. I only saw the beginning of that thread before my day took me elsewhere and now I can't find it (which is why I'm assuming it was deleted) and I felt this was an important point to make if it hasn't already been made.
Best of luck to Barkley in Philly. In a way, I think him being gone is a step in the right direction.
Di he go back to the Giants with the Philly offer? That we don't know yet (at least I think we don't). If he did, did the Giants decline to match or match and Barkley chose Philly? Again, we don't know.
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To go on Twitter the day after you sign with your former teams rival, get chippy with fans and claim you were never offered a contract when you knew there was a recording of you being offered one.
Best of luck to Barkley in Philly. In a way, I think him being gone is a step in the right direction.
Well, this recording didn't offer him a contract. It asked for a chance to hear what he was offered and decide if it makes sense for them to match.
Di he go back to the Giants with the Philly offer? That we don't know yet (at least I think we don't). If he did, did the Giants decline to match or match and Barkley chose Philly? Again, we don't know.
Saquon went on record the Giants never offered him anything. There’s a teaser at the end of the episode that confirms they offered him a contract. It didn’t happen during this conversation.
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In comment 16553001 Biteymax22 said:
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To go on Twitter the day after you sign with your former teams rival, get chippy with fans and claim you were never offered a contract when you knew there was a recording of you being offered one.
Best of luck to Barkley in Philly. In a way, I think him being gone is a step in the right direction.
Well, this recording didn't offer him a contract. It asked for a chance to hear what he was offered and decide if it makes sense for them to match.
Di he go back to the Giants with the Philly offer? That we don't know yet (at least I think we don't). If he did, did the Giants decline to match or match and Barkley chose Philly? Again, we don't know.
Saquon went on record the Giants never offered him anything. There’s a teaser at the end of the episode that confirms they offered him a contract. It didn’t happen during this conversation.
I do think Schoen came off sounding like a douche and was not convincing at all about trying to match. It sounded to me like just words to placate Barkley and try to prevent a PR problem. Again, I think it was the right call and I also understand 100% how that could annoy Barkley. I think he was right to go out and get what he could get and the Giants were right not to pay it. My only regret here is that he landed in Philly.
Not agreeing to that put a bad taste in both parties mouths; in Schoen's case he invested a ton of time/effort in negotiations and made a premium offer which was spurned over relative peanuts by a guy who professed to value being a Giant For Life. A guy who didn't want to be tagged and knew the tag was less cap favorable thus hindering Schoen's flexibility in improving the team with other signings.
Then comes the unexpected cap increase which let the Giants, the Eagles and everyone else aim higher in free agency. While also increasing the likely haul for top players at each position. Barkley and Burns were both in that group.
So essentially, the relationship fire was out, but embers were alive to re-sign Barkley at $7MM -- a number the Giants could swallow and in line with his likely value under the projected cap. But the higher cap doused the embers.
Even with the Hard Knock edits, it's pretty clear that Schoen was heavily leaning against re-signing Barkley as soon as the season ended. He repeatedly said it (wear and tear comments, positional value, etc.).
Barkley also didn't sound particularly "giddy" about coming back to the Giants when the season immediately ended. We know the Franchise tag pissed him off too.
This was a mutual breakup.
Trying to read more into it is silly.
Nothing else to see/analyze here.
I've been wondering the same thing. It seems like a false narrative is being forwarded which is all too common these days.
In any event, I think eric in LI summed it up nicely above. I'm in the camp that Schoen had no interest in re-signing him, and all his actions suggest he was trying to placate Mara while ultimately sticking to his evaluation.
He hid behind the "let the market establish your value" when in reality, if they really wanted him, they would've been proactive.
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Who has the editing rights? I read on here that the Giants DO NOT choose what is in the video. The only veto power they have is something that hurts the team from a competitive standpoint.
I've been wondering the same thing. It seems like a false narrative is being forwarded which is all too common these days.
In any event, I think eric in LI summed it up nicely above. I'm in the camp that Schoen had no interest in re-signing him, and all his actions suggest he was trying to placate Mara while ultimately sticking to his evaluation.
He hid behind the "let the market establish your value" when in reality, if they really wanted him, they would've been proactive.
There have been a number of statements from media types that have said the teams have the ability to remove content they are not comfortable with. Rich Eisen talked about this when thanking the Giants for releasing what they have released.
Nothing else to see/analyze here.
This is probably right, too. An awkward situation where neither party wanted to get anything done, but both felt the need to make it seem like they did.
This might be one of those situations where an inexperienced GM let things get too personal during negotiations, which ironically he was warning Daniel Jones about at the same time.
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In comment 16552914 M.S. said:
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and I deleted it. Eric said that the Philly radio guy who called Joe Schoen an ass — Erskin - comes with a lot of baggage. I’d never heard of the guy before so I just deleted the thread.
The guy is an unstable nutjob. It's not hyperbole.
And a scumbag. He's been barred from Citizen Bank Park and the Sixers training facility for making a pass at an Aramark employee without her consent. Apparently it was on video. Link - ( New Window )
I'm a bit confused, or maybe I'm just not up on current dating practice, but how do you go about getting permission to make a pass at someone? I understand if you make a pass and get rebuffed, move on ... but getting prior permission?
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In comment 16553010 robbieballs2003 said:
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Who has the editing rights? I read on here that the Giants DO NOT choose what is in the video. The only veto power they have is something that hurts the team from a competitive standpoint.
I've been wondering the same thing. It seems like a false narrative is being forwarded which is all too common these days.
In any event, I think eric in LI summed it up nicely above. I'm in the camp that Schoen had no interest in re-signing him, and all his actions suggest he was trying to placate Mara while ultimately sticking to his evaluation.
He hid behind the "let the market establish your value" when in reality, if they really wanted him, they would've been proactive.
There have been a number of statements from media types that have said the teams have the ability to remove content they are not comfortable with. Rich Eisen talked about this when thanking the Giants for releasing what they have released.
There has to be some sort of limit or more specific language though right? I can't imagine they're "comfortable" releasing any of it.
A: Why didn’t I make Saquon? I wasn’t going to move him. We had a conversation about it, it wasn’t even a – I think some of you guys asked a question about that maybe a couple weeks before the trade deadline or the week of and just to eliminate distraction. I think we just said he’s one of our most productive offensive players right now. To move that guy, it just didn’t make any sense and we didn’t take any calls or receive any calls on him.
They weren't ready to tank. At the point they're making the decision, they're 2-5 with a game against Jets/Zach Wilson coming up they think they can win (and almost did) and their $40 million dollar QB coming back the week after that.
They didn't know Jones was going to tear his ACL.
When I say "they" didn't want to tank:
Mara certainly didn't want to tank for a draft pick QB, with Jones being his guy. And Mara is embarrassed by losses and always wants to win every game.
Daboll didn't want to gut his offense and pile losses on his resume.
Schoen would have shared that concern and not even thought about picking a fight on the subject. Trading Leonard Williams was one thing; Barkley another, entirely.
link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16553001 Biteymax22 said:
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To go on Twitter the day after you sign with your former teams rival, get chippy with fans and claim you were never offered a contract when you knew there was a recording of you being offered one.
Best of luck to Barkley in Philly. In a way, I think him being gone is a step in the right direction.
Well, this recording didn't offer him a contract. It asked for a chance to hear what he was offered and decide if it makes sense for them to match.
Di he go back to the Giants with the Philly offer? That we don't know yet (at least I think we don't). If he did, did the Giants decline to match or match and Barkley chose Philly? Again, we don't know.
Saquon went on record the Giants never offered him anything. There’s a teaser at the end of the episode that confirms they offered him a contract. It didn’t happen during this conversation.
if we havent seen what happened yet why are we getting over our skis saying he lied? doesnt that remain to be seen? obviously there were prior contract offers last year. So far we have seen hard knocks through the tag deadline in march and there were in fact 0 offers from schoen, confirmed directly from him multiple times.
I do think Schoen came off sounding like a douche and was not convincing at all about trying to match. It sounded to me like just words to placate Barkley and try to prevent a PR problem. Again, I think it was the right call and I also understand 100% how that could annoy Barkley. I think he was right to go out and get what he could get and the Giants were right not to pay it. My only regret here is that he landed in Philly.
i think this is all exactly right.
The not tanking argument makes zero sense.
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Q. Why did you make Saquon unavailable at the trade deadline?
A: Why didn’t I make Saquon? I wasn’t going to move him. We had a conversation about it, it wasn’t even a – I think some of you guys asked a question about that maybe a couple weeks before the trade deadline or the week of and just to eliminate distraction. I think we just said he’s one of our most productive offensive players right now. To move that guy, it just didn’t make any sense and we didn’t take any calls or receive any calls on him.
They weren't ready to tank. At the point they're making the decision, they're 2-5 with a game against Jets/Zach Wilson coming up they think they can win (and almost did) and their $40 million dollar QB coming back the week after that.
They didn't know Jones was going to tear his ACL.
When I say "they" didn't want to tank:
Mara certainly didn't want to tank for a draft pick QB, with Jones being his guy. And Mara is embarrassed by losses and always wants to win every game.
Daboll didn't want to gut his offense and pile losses on his resume.
Schoen would have shared that concern and not even thought about picking a fight on the subject. Trading Leonard Williams was one thing; Barkley another, entirely.
link - ( New Window )
and this is something you can add to the list of schoen handling reactively vs proactively with strategy.
if he truly wanted to resolve himself of barkley, why was he considered such an important piece relative to leonard williams?
schoen had the power at the deadline, last offseason, and again this offseason. at all points he made the decision to maintain status quo instead of getting to yes in whichever way he chose (trade, extension, etc).
its like a few good men. why the 2 orders general? is barkley an important piece to helping the team (23 tag, 22-23 extension discussions, refusal to trade) or is he someone you just wanted to move on from (the way he handled 2024 offseason)? by his actions it seemed like they ended up the latter which is fine except he still contradicts himself when he says things like wanting the right to match an offer whether its for pr reasons or he means it. barkley got paid close in scale (24.5m) to what jon runyan (20.75m) will get over the next 2 years. the scale of this decision financially was a mole hill being made into a mountain. with any foresight they'd have closer to the amount they guaranteed singletary ($9.5m) of guaranteed $ remaining on Barkley's deal if they took the extension proposal MikeG/Dunleavey reported barkley offered last year (22-23m guaranteed, including the $10m tag amount nyg actually paid him).
The not tanking argument makes zero sense.
100% agree. if we pretend nobody had interest interest in LW or they decided to keep him, would they have had any discussion of franchise tagging him this past offseason? i highly doubt it.
schoen said it clearly when ed berry asked him directly "do you want to move on from him?" and schoen said "i dont know".
indecision from schoen is a consistent attribute of the 2 year saga.
That is the more interesting question to me as well.
Maybe I don't understand the protocols, but I was a bit surprised Schoen called Barkley after speaking with his agent. Why couldn't the agent tell Barkley about the decision?
I also wonder if Mara snuck a call into Barkley somewhere along the line. If not, that should be more evidence that Schoen is running the show.
Daboll's response to reporters makes his feelings on the subject obvious. The offense is his baby. Daboll would have had an ally in Mara, who would not have looked favorably, and in fact may not have approved, sabotaging the offense in the first year of Jones' big money deal.
Highly unclear what kind of mid-season return Barkley would have brought back. To get any kind of decent return, Giants may have had to agree to pay Barkley's salary for the rest of the year, as the Jets did in the Leonard Williams' trade.
Imagine asking Mara to do that.
By my reading of the Over the Cap comp pick ledger, the net of Barkley's free agency departure is that the Giants get a 4th round comp pick that they wouldn't otherwise.
If traded, Barkley may not have brought back more than a third.
that's not happening - ( New Window )
I fully believe Daboll did not want to trade Barkley. I'd guess if anyone wanted to trade him, it was Schoen.
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and I deleted it. Eric said that the Philly radio guy who called Joe Schoen an ass — Erskin - comes with a lot of baggage. I’d never heard of the guy before so I just deleted the thread.
The guy is an unstable nutjob. It's not hyperbole.
Eric is right. His son, Spike, became the program director of WFAN. Eskin Sr. is a known piece of doggy doo-doo.
I'm not sure how I feel about the private conversation. The fact that Schoen put it on speaker phone tells me that they wanted to make it a scene for HBO. Otherwise, I would imagine Schoen doesn't have Barkley on speaker.
On the other hand, at least we had a chance to hear both sides speak versus trying to figure out what Barkley was saying and what his tone was.
IMO, it's only disrespectful if both parties are unaware it's being recorded. I think everyone knew which is why Barkley was so checked out on the call, he knew it was being recorded and didn't want to say anything of value which is why he said, "you know how I feel" or something along those lines.
Talk taking hard knocks as gospel is super silly.
The cool parts to me is seeing the interviews. I’m especially thought Nabers has more of “that dog” in him versus Odunze and MHJ. Excited to see him get out there.
I watched episode 1, and came away thinking this is ultra staged. At no point did I think I was a fly on the wall watching decision making in progress. More a white washed re-creation of 'inspired by true events'. Wouldn't surprise me if SB/Schoen had already had their talk, or that word was already sent through the agent.
As for 'no contract offered', I've seen cases where this is a mere technicality. Both sides know 95% of what is on the table, but it wasn't typed up and presented as a formal offer. It counts as 'no offer', but doesn't represent reality. Whether that is the case with SB is unknown, but my guess is that both sides knew the score.
This little episode of the franchise with these two can’t end soon enough.
I suspect we'll find out this Tuesday whether it advances the storyline, but you're correct it didn't do anything the call with the agent didn't already establish.
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In comment 16552914 M.S. said:
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and I deleted it. Eric said that the Philly radio guy who called Joe Schoen an ass — Erskin - comes with a lot of baggage. I’d never heard of the guy before so I just deleted the thread.
The guy is an unstable nutjob. It's not hyperbole.
Eric is right. His son, Spike, became the program director of WFAN. Eskin Sr. is a known piece of doggy doo-doo.
I fully believe Daboll did not want to trade Barkley. I'd guess if anyone wanted to trade him, it was Schoen.
I think this rings true. If I had a guess, Mara-of course-& Dabs didn't want to move Saquon in season while Joe did.
which is what we have been for over 10 years?
The Giants also likely signed an agreement protecting them from any legal fallout from what is aired.
Next, put yourself in the position of a team who is interested in Barkley.
You already know what he is asking for which everyone feels is too much. So, you are trading for a guy in November whose contract is about to expire and you may not have the ability to re-sign to keep him after the season.
That leaves only a team who thinks Barkley is the missing piece for a championship LAST year. That team may not exist.
Barkley wanted to get paid. Plain and simple. If we offered a contract last year to what he wanted, he would still be here. Let's not make this about wanting to win.
Next, put yourself in the position of a team who is interested in Barkley.
You already know what he is asking for which everyone feels is too much. So, you are trading for a guy in November whose contract is about to expire and you may not have the ability to re-sign to keep him after the season.
That leaves only a team who thinks Barkley is the missing piece for a championship LAST year. That team may not exist.
And Barkley has several injuries in the beginning of 2023. I suspect trade offers, if any, were 6th round type offers.
The not tanking argument makes zero sense.
2-6 while playing horrendous football. The season was over.
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the Giants were 2-6 and they traded Leonard Williams.
The not tanking argument makes zero sense.
2-6 while playing horrendous football. The season was over.
Mara didn't think so, and was quoted as saying they were not trading Barkley. I don't understand the hate on Schoen when Mara is saying no trade is happening
The ROH stuff is the Mara identify and "once a giant, always a giant", IMO. So that's the line that Schoen has to walk balancing the Giants culture and doing what's best for the team.
“It's always been about competitive balance and protecting the integrity of a team–not disclosing almost inadvertently to our not understanding of it,” Camarata said.
In other words, the objective wasn’t to paint the team or any one individual in a specific light. Rather, it was to protect the team from having anything it felt might offer their opponents a competitive edge disclosed on the air.
“It's always critical when we do these shows–and the Giants were no different–where we establish that trust is that we're gonna cut the show, we're gonna tell the story, but you're gonna have a chance to look at it and approve the content,” Camarata said.
With three episodes still to go, Camarata promised viewers would see additional information about some of the storylines introduced in the first two episodes. Although he didn’t go into specifics, those will likely include free agency decisions like the fallout from the Saquon Barkley talks and possibly even some talks surrounding safety Xavier McKinney.
There will also be a peek at some of the big name acquisitions the Giants made during free agency shown before the series turns to the draft.
“We know who they drafted in the first round, but I think we’ll see the why,” Camarata teased.
Link - ( New Window )
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real discussion here is who determined/why didn't they move him in October?
Because the team was struggling mightily on offense and he was their biggest weapon. We don't know what anyone offered. You're applying hindsight here. The fans would have been rioting if the offense didn't improve. If we're talking 5 or a 6, of course that wasn't going to happen.
No hindsight.
I called for it at the time.
Rioting? The team was 2-6 and everyone knew the season was dead.
Rioting? The team was 2-6 and everyone knew the season was dead.
The attachment a good portion of this fanbase has had for both Jones & Barkley is one of the strangest things I've ever seen.
The Jones/Barkley Era has revealed one thing very clearly - any talk of the NYG fan base being one of the smartest has been annihilated.