But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
"If your GM doesn't have the backbone to not give in to the owner, he wasn't the right guy anyway."
I agree with this sentiment, but *if* you believe this you also have to acknowledge that that effectively makes this job more difficult than it has to be.
That makes it difficult for an outsider to come into this building and have success, and one of the Giants' biggest failures in the past decade is insistence on being a closed bubble of insiders and friends 'n family.
It creates an added layer of difficulty for an already difficult job. A rookie GM is now not just having to learn the job but also how to navigate the maze of managing personalities that are supposed to be allies.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Speaking of moving goal posts, didn't you argue last week that the Giants' interest in QBs was all a ruse to get Nabers to fall to them? Now you're arguing that the Giants did have interest in trading up because they viewed one of the tops guys as a Mahomes level talent?
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
The fact that John is bemoaning letting him walk because he's a 'fan favorite'...WTF are we doing? I get he sells merch, but I'd rather Mara focus on winning.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
episode. Very interesting to see how the office works. These episodes fly by.
It is my humble opinion that Joe Schoen virtually runs everything his way. The meetings are in his office and even the owners come to his office. Even when JM comes in to briefly give his opinion, he walks away after Joe gives his. It is clear to me that JM does not know enough to meddle effectively. Someone posted that they were not impressed with his "presence". I agree he appears to be too timid to be a CEO.
Of course the way the show is produced it may be done to show Schoen as the real power in the org.
It was interesting the way they divided up the FA money and how having to up the ante on each player eliminated other player(s) from being signed. (Runyon, Eleumenor and losing Hunt). I was especially surprised that Runyon at guard received more money than Eleumenor and that was what was predicted from the beginning.
Burns is a pretty impressive physical guy. Seemed to dwarf everyone. I like how Schoen told Bowen that Burns was all he was getting during FA.
I also enjoy reading everyone's POVs. Some very insightful points.
I would be pretty optimistic on the season if they had been able to land one of their preferred QBs.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
A spy?
So silly….yea….I’m sure he he revealing super secret information that they won’t share with Mara
If John Mara had a good track record of hiring successful people, and exhibited a command of team building and courage when facing tough decisions, his involvement wouldn't be controversial.
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
If John Mara had a good track record of hiring successful people, and exhibited a command of team building and courage when facing tough decisions, his involvement wouldn't be controversial.
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
Garafolo seems to have a pretty tight relationship with Schoen; what he was reporting was pretty much what we saw behind the scenes. So remember that next time Mike says this is what he is hearing regarding Giants news it could be from Schoen.
Also the 'fuck the eagles' line was by the far the best line of the episode.
MG clearly has a source very close to/or is Schoen. I'm glad that is the case, because he's always been very fair to and respectful of the Giants. And every front office needs a trusted reporter they can funnel through.
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
MG clearly has a source very close to/or is Schoen. I'm glad that is the case, because he's always been very fair to and respectful of the Giants. And every front office needs a trusted reporter they can funnel through.
Also interesting that MG reported that he expected NYG to trade up for a QB around the combine.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
At the time of the combine, Garafolo said there was a better than 75% chance of the Giants drafting a first round QB. Somewhat jokingly, he called it a 76.9% chance.
And he said Giants had discussed trading up to the top 3 spots. He didn't directly say they were likely to trade up to get their first round QB.
In April, MG said the Giants would only trade up for Drake Maye, and it would only happen if Maye somehow fell to the number 4 spot. See link.
MG was living in the real world when he said this. He recognized that the top 3 teams were not trading out.
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best.
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best. nfl.com - ( New Window )
If you believe Rico is a reliable BBI Insider, the framework of a deal to move into the third spot was in place on draft day with New England. It sounded very much like the deal was near the finish line.
Whether Wolt got cold feet or was bluffing, or Schoen wouldn't add another piece to close the deal, the deal collapsed right before or shortly after 8pm.
So, it seems like it may have been more than a Hail Mary Idea. Hopefully, we get more info next week.
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
In winning organizations everyone shares the same opinion? Have we lost our mind? This is total media nonsense. In successful organizations there is open exchange of ideas on difficult decisions and healthy discussion. Cowherd is a moron.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Cowherd criticizing Schoen for not respecting Mara
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
I thought Mara accepted not signing Barkley but was annoyed with the decision.
It better work out or Schoen will be gone .
I give Schaboll credit for recognizing they need to upgrade quarterback. But bad marks for the previous commitment.
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
His QB interviews showed he should absolutely be calling the plays this year. And I know it’s only a snippet from next week’s episode but it’s clear that he loves what he sees in Nabers’ tape.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
I agree that Mara does not appear to have the that dominating persona - looked like a doddering old man, frankly.
Yes, Barkley is a revenue generator for the team. But he was also the best offensive player by far. That cannot be po-poed in their view, Mara and McDonnell clinging to run 1st offense. And it also shows that Mara may not believe in DJ's ability to lead the offense by himself.
we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
The real issue is how Jerry Reese lost his grip on the team, because he started out brilliantly, and the caliber of GM's and their decisions that succeeded him.
Clearly when Gettleman was hired the old boy network was in full form, and they may have taken the little snippets that Mara and McDonnell dropped more to heart and felt they had to give in to them periodically. Take the hiring Dave Gettleman, and subsequent hiring of Ben McAdoo and of Joe Judge and his hiring of Jason Garrett. Much was made of Mara's role in these decisions. First you had Ernie Accorsie brought in to assist, and then wink wink nod nod and Gettleman was hired with Abrams a clear successor tapped. Then when Gettleman gets hired McAdoo was promoted when the Eagles showed interest in him. That shows the same time of opinion rendered and effecting the FO's decision. When McAdoo gets booted (which there was a quick exit) It was widely circulated that Mara called Belichick and was told Judge would be better than what you had there before. This was another wink, wink nod, nod hire, and Garrett was a product of Mara telling Judge how much he wouldn't mind having Garrett back in the fold. There was a clear difference in philosophies between Judge and Garrett.
I find it interesting. I perceive that Mara's comments, and McDonnell's comments like we are seeing in the Hard Knocks videos probably had a more outsize impact then they do now.
This is what gives me hope. The current Front Office seems to be much more professional then all that. They clearly accept what Mara says, then they run things through their "process" and make the decisions that the GM thinks are sound. They are managing McDonnell and Mara based on football acumen instead of wink, wink, nod nod. We are hearing things like football studies, stats, data, and in depth personality analysis being used to make football analysis.
Mara has allowed Schoen to surround himself with a lot of strong football intelligence, and he backs down when they tell him they are making football decisions and how they justify it.
So for me the issue is that what really went wrong was the end game of Reese's regime, and the duration of Gettleman's, how seemingly differently things are going now, and how professionally the FO staff was put together and both operates and behaves in my opinion.
That's my take away -- the Giants GM is not operating like a clown ship right now. They are operating like a professional team, with a lot of strong voices and football acumen in the room. They care deeply and are passionate about what they are doing, and they seem competent to me.
They may make mistakes from time to time, but they seem to be able to recover from it, make improvements and move forward. Again this gives me a lot of hope.
I am certainly not concerned that Mara and McDOnnell, does not allow the professional staff to do what they is is best for the team - these three shows we have watched clearly show this.
These aren't hidden cameras. Of course Mara is just going to come off as a concerned owner and nothing more.
What is telling is Schoen does not come off as a sentimental dummy. Quite the opposite. Which is why it's harder to believe there wasn't a thumb on the scale, if not an outright mandate from John, in regards to past personnel decisions. It would jive with John's public comments that indicate that he does have a major say in big decisions.
we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
Gidiefor: I think you need to review the timeline as you described it.
Who was the CEO and GM who put together the 2007 SB run? Who did the drafting? Who was director of pro personnel? Different cast for the 2011 SB run.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
the biggest impact mara had was not firing coughlin, which was a non-decision but against the grain.
the reality is i think he knows his odds of finding good football people sucks which is why hes generally been hesitant to fire people.
RE: Gidiefor: I think you need to review the timeline as you described it.
Who was the CEO and GM who put together the 2007 SB run? Who did the drafting? Who was director of pro personnel? Different cast for the 2011 SB run.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
I dispute that Wellington was running the FO - in his final years John Mara was in charge -- Wellington Mara was in decline
A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
That Spy is Wellington Mara's grandson... its a family business its literally asinine to think family isnt going to be involved.
1. burns was basically in the fold before they sent initial offers out at the beginning of UFA window and prior to getting an answer on barkley/with burns they had sent offers out to the 5 targets they mentioned (3 OL, singletary, tyrod). when the price went up on Runyan that's when they said to match they'd no longer have money for Hunt. so i think their plan A was runyan at a number not far from what eluemeanor got + hunt for a few million more than runyan, but obviously the market pushed both higher.
2. i assume the wilkins pursuit was never mentioned because they were already basically set with burns. if they had a salary agreed with burns that means they'd been negotiating at least a few days prior to day of FA.
3. interesting that they sent an offer to singletary before knowing barkley's decision.
4. schoen's "he's their top guy" comment re eluemenor was present tense, so i now think he was referencing bricillo and the pro scouting department and that they graded him as the best T available in FA (not that he was the raiders top guy past tense). the top paid FA OT was conspicuously absent from the show and that is notable because it was Mike Onwenu who also played G/T for Bricillo. Both players had similar grades last year at RT, both players a non-prototypes for T which is why they've also played some guard, it's not impossible bricillo had a slight preference toward elumeanor and it then made no sense to shop for the more expensive player. or maybe they just didnt count Onwenu because NE was clear they were going to bring him back and they had a big deal fairly quickly? either way look at the OT board, only 3 OTs got paid more than eluemeanor so for him to be the "top guy" they only had to like him better than those guys.
eluemeanor is interesting, but damn would it have been nice to slot in Hunt and Runyan. Hunt has almost entirely played RG too so that probably would have meant Runyan at LG.
also interesting jets were interested in runyan since rodgers played with him, the way their org operates right now there is no way that wasnt something he'd weighed in on.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
Agree, I think Mara is trying to downplay the amount he gets involved, but I have a hard time not seeing his involvement in the SB saga, and what is arguably the most head-scratching contract in Giants history. We deserve the ridicule we get for that one.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
RE: Not just rodgers, theres a coordinator connection
yeah hackett is a moron though, and while im sure his opinion was involved rodgers has more sway in that org than anyone other than woody. he's changed how woody operates the team in some areas more than douglas or saleh were able to.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
RE: so everyone thinks Mara is a dunce for wanting
If they show anything meaningful inside the draft room (they have to show some), it could be a truly fantastic inside look.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: My thoughts from last night
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
If they show anything meaningful inside the draft room (they have to show some), it could be a truly fantastic inside look.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
i think most of the interesting stuff will be trade related.
the talks with NE obviously but also the tease about atlanta possibly offering to trade up. were there any other trade discussions we don't know about? was there someone falling out of round 1 they tried to move up for in round 2?
was when they were talking about Eluemunor. Mentioned that they considered him a potential starter at RT or RG, and that seemed JS' mind about making the deal.
RE: RE: so everyone thinks Mara is a dunce for wanting
to keep Saquon but everyone also likes Brandon Brown and Chris Rossetti and they seemed to want to bring him back as well.
and howie roseman, ryan poles, nick caserio were the ones lined up to pay saquon.
Paying Saquon certainly makes more sense to a team like Philly, that doesn't need him one bit, and that has plenty of extra money.
It does not make sense for the Giants, who had little money to spend, a lot of holes to fill, and spent 6 seasons fielding a bottom 5 offense with Barkley on it.
Sorry I don’t have the time to read through all this
And I just got to watch it
Did it seem like Schoens conversation about matching Saquons offer (12.5/yr 25 gtd) “ans then we have a press conference announcing that he’s staying a giant” was a quick conversation.
And then when he described it to Mara , he made it seem much more equivocal?
Editing?
My misperception?
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
I agree with this sentiment, but *if* you believe this you also have to acknowledge that that effectively makes this job more difficult than it has to be.
That makes it difficult for an outsider to come into this building and have success, and one of the Giants' biggest failures in the past decade is insistence on being a closed bubble of insiders and friends 'n family.
It creates an added layer of difficulty for an already difficult job. A rookie GM is now not just having to learn the job but also how to navigate the maze of managing personalities that are supposed to be allies.
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You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
In comment 16554605 Milton said:
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Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Speaking of moving goal posts, didn't you argue last week that the Giants' interest in QBs was all a ruse to get Nabers to fall to them? Now you're arguing that the Giants did have interest in trading up because they viewed one of the tops guys as a Mahomes level talent?
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Just watched it.
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
The fact that John is bemoaning letting him walk because he's a 'fan favorite'...WTF are we doing? I get he sells merch, but I'd rather Mara focus on winning.
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
It is my humble opinion that Joe Schoen virtually runs everything his way. The meetings are in his office and even the owners come to his office. Even when JM comes in to briefly give his opinion, he walks away after Joe gives his. It is clear to me that JM does not know enough to meddle effectively. Someone posted that they were not impressed with his "presence". I agree he appears to be too timid to be a CEO.
Of course the way the show is produced it may be done to show Schoen as the real power in the org.
It was interesting the way they divided up the FA money and how having to up the ante on each player eliminated other player(s) from being signed. (Runyon, Eleumenor and losing Hunt). I was especially surprised that Runyon at guard received more money than Eleumenor and that was what was predicted from the beginning.
Burns is a pretty impressive physical guy. Seemed to dwarf everyone. I like how Schoen told Bowen that Burns was all he was getting during FA.
I also enjoy reading everyone's POVs. Some very insightful points.
I would be pretty optimistic on the season if they had been able to land one of their preferred QBs.
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
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In comment 16554589 Biteymax22 said:
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
A spy?
So silly….yea….I’m sure he he revealing super secret information that they won’t share with Mara
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
Mara's involvement is controversial because he's sucked at hiring people and says stupid shit regularly.
This
Also the 'fuck the eagles' line was by the far the best line of the episode.
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In comment 16554589 Biteymax22 said:
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Also interesting that MG reported that he expected NYG to trade up for a QB around the combine.
Imagine Maye and Jones on the roster. Now that would be some drama!
Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
And he said Giants had discussed trading up to the top 3 spots. He didn't directly say they were likely to trade up to get their first round QB.
In April, MG said the Giants would only trade up for Drake Maye, and it would only happen if Maye somehow fell to the number 4 spot. See link.
MG was living in the real world when he said this. He recognized that the top 3 teams were not trading out.
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best.
nfl.com - ( New Window )
Were the Giants living in the same real world? My view of the Drew Lock signing, which was two weeks after the combine, is that the Giants knew trading into the top 3 to get the QB they wanted was a very long shot, at best. nfl.com - ( New Window )
If you believe Rico is a reliable BBI Insider, the framework of a deal to move into the third spot was in place on draft day with New England. It sounded very much like the deal was near the finish line.
Whether Wolt got cold feet or was bluffing, or Schoen wouldn't add another piece to close the deal, the deal collapsed right before or shortly after 8pm.
So, it seems like it may have been more than a Hail Mary Idea. Hopefully, we get more info next week.
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Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
In winning organizations everyone shares the same opinion? Have we lost our mind? This is total media nonsense. In successful organizations there is open exchange of ideas on difficult decisions and healthy discussion. Cowherd is a moron.
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Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
I thought Mara accepted not signing Barkley but was annoyed with the decision.
It better work out or Schoen will be gone .
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I give Schaboll credit for recognizing they need to upgrade quarterback. But bad marks for the previous commitment.
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
His QB interviews showed he should absolutely be calling the plays this year. And I know it’s only a snippet from next week’s episode but it’s clear that he loves what he sees in Nabers’ tape.
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Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
Look, that's fine with me. Because when the dust settled and smoke cleared, Schoen clearly had the final call. And Mara accepted it, albeit crestfallen.
Mara looks like a very nice man, but he had no leadership presence at all. Having worked for three Fortune 100 companies (two in the top ten), it's pretty easy to spot someone who is not C-suite material. And Mara doesn't. I worked for Dave Wichmann, former CEO for UNH, when he was running the M&A department, and that guy commanded a room when he walked into it. People wanted to hitch their wagons to the guy and follow his lead.
I'd be curious what the cadence was with the Bills and what Schoen was exposed to working for Beane who worked for Terry Pegula, the owner and self-made billionaire. And how that experience may have helped him manage someone like Mara...
I agree that Mara does not appear to have the that dominating persona - looked like a doddering old man, frankly.
Yes, Barkley is a revenue generator for the team. But he was also the best offensive player by far. That cannot be po-poed in their view, Mara and McDonnell clinging to run 1st offense. And it also shows that Mara may not believe in DJ's ability to lead the offense by himself.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
The real issue is how Jerry Reese lost his grip on the team, because he started out brilliantly, and the caliber of GM's and their decisions that succeeded him.
Clearly when Gettleman was hired the old boy network was in full form, and they may have taken the little snippets that Mara and McDonnell dropped more to heart and felt they had to give in to them periodically. Take the hiring Dave Gettleman, and subsequent hiring of Ben McAdoo and of Joe Judge and his hiring of Jason Garrett. Much was made of Mara's role in these decisions. First you had Ernie Accorsie brought in to assist, and then wink wink nod nod and Gettleman was hired with Abrams a clear successor tapped. Then when Gettleman gets hired McAdoo was promoted when the Eagles showed interest in him. That shows the same time of opinion rendered and effecting the FO's decision. When McAdoo gets booted (which there was a quick exit) It was widely circulated that Mara called Belichick and was told Judge would be better than what you had there before. This was another wink, wink nod, nod hire, and Garrett was a product of Mara telling Judge how much he wouldn't mind having Garrett back in the fold. There was a clear difference in philosophies between Judge and Garrett.
I find it interesting. I perceive that Mara's comments, and McDonnell's comments like we are seeing in the Hard Knocks videos probably had a more outsize impact then they do now.
This is what gives me hope. The current Front Office seems to be much more professional then all that. They clearly accept what Mara says, then they run things through their "process" and make the decisions that the GM thinks are sound. They are managing McDonnell and Mara based on football acumen instead of wink, wink, nod nod. We are hearing things like football studies, stats, data, and in depth personality analysis being used to make football analysis.
Mara has allowed Schoen to surround himself with a lot of strong football intelligence, and he backs down when they tell him they are making football decisions and how they justify it.
So for me the issue is that what really went wrong was the end game of Reese's regime, and the duration of Gettleman's, how seemingly differently things are going now, and how professionally the FO staff was put together and both operates and behaves in my opinion.
That's my take away -- the Giants GM is not operating like a clown ship right now. They are operating like a professional team, with a lot of strong voices and football acumen in the room. They care deeply and are passionate about what they are doing, and they seem competent to me.
They may make mistakes from time to time, but they seem to be able to recover from it, make improvements and move forward. Again this gives me a lot of hope.
I am certainly not concerned that Mara and McDOnnell, does not allow the professional staff to do what they is is best for the team - these three shows we have watched clearly show this.
No one is defending anything
Now answer the question I posed instead of a childish and inaccurate response
What is telling is Schoen does not come off as a sentimental dummy. Quite the opposite. Which is why it's harder to believe there wasn't a thumb on the scale, if not an outright mandate from John, in regards to past personnel decisions. It would jive with John's public comments that indicate that he does have a major say in big decisions.
which I understand.
Schoen comes across very nicely. Daboll not so much...
Mara... well he meddles but seems to let Joe make the decisions, which is good.
McDonnell appears clueless....
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
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we are definitely getting a view of how things actually work at Giants central.
Those of you who are taking a dim view of John Mara I think are missing a key point.
Mara has clearly been himself throughout the time he's been running the franchise. It was under his rein that Eli was drafted, Jerry Reese was promoted to GM, Tom Coughlin was hired, and the Giants won two Super Bowls. I find it hard to believe that he was any different then, then he is now.
While John Mara reportedly played a role in convincing his father to sign off on Accorsi's plan to acquire Eli Manning, he was not running the franchise when they made either that decision or the decision to hire Tom Coughlin.
Reese was a logical choice to succeed Accorsi as one of his deputies (and candidate endorsed by him), but I guess I'll give Mara minimal credit for not hiring his brother Chris for the job.
While I would contend that George Young and Accorsi deserve the lion's share of the credit for the Giants four Super Bowl titles, the decision to turn the search for Reese's replacement over to Accorsi is a damning indictment of Mara's ability to run the franchise. It was a complete farce.
the biggest impact mara had was not firing coughlin, which was a non-decision but against the grain.
the reality is i think he knows his odds of finding good football people sucks which is why hes generally been hesitant to fire people.
Who put together the teams post 2011 that gave us 10 years of lousy football? Who hired McAdoo? Who fired McAdoo?
The Giants are a family business and have always operated that way. And families have disagreements and power struggles. Fans may wish that this isn’t a family business, but look around at how other teams are structured and which ones have been most successful long term.
Much of the successes you describe were generated by Wellington Mara - not by John Mara. We have a business that has operated for 100 years with the same ownership and has won championships (I believe) in every decade except one (1970s). They have not changed the way they do business except once (1970s). One can claim that the business is too “old school” but that business has had success in each of the past 4 decades. The business has changed and will continue to change but it is hard to argue with the way it has been operated. So the changes are slow in coming.
I dispute that Wellington was running the FO - in his final years John Mara was in charge -- Wellington Mara was in decline
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In comment 16554589 Biteymax22 said:
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A passive aggressive meddler who's words say one thing, but actions say another
Precisely. Honestly, either meddle like you mean it, or just offer a clear idea once in a while for consideration. I saw a passive aggressive guy who worries and grumbles, whines and nudges, but doesn't actually give helpful input whatsoever. Super annoying.
+1
And has a spy, his nephew, literally on the GM's staff.
That Spy is Wellington Mara's grandson... its a family business its literally asinine to think family isnt going to be involved.
2. i assume the wilkins pursuit was never mentioned because they were already basically set with burns. if they had a salary agreed with burns that means they'd been negotiating at least a few days prior to day of FA.
3. interesting that they sent an offer to singletary before knowing barkley's decision.
4. schoen's "he's their top guy" comment re eluemenor was present tense, so i now think he was referencing bricillo and the pro scouting department and that they graded him as the best T available in FA (not that he was the raiders top guy past tense). the top paid FA OT was conspicuously absent from the show and that is notable because it was Mike Onwenu who also played G/T for Bricillo. Both players had similar grades last year at RT, both players a non-prototypes for T which is why they've also played some guard, it's not impossible bricillo had a slight preference toward elumeanor and it then made no sense to shop for the more expensive player. or maybe they just didnt count Onwenu because NE was clear they were going to bring him back and they had a big deal fairly quickly? either way look at the OT board, only 3 OTs got paid more than eluemeanor so for him to be the "top guy" they only had to like him better than those guys.
eluemeanor is interesting, but damn would it have been nice to slot in Hunt and Runyan. Hunt has almost entirely played RG too so that probably would have meant Runyan at LG.
also interesting jets were interested in runyan since rodgers played with him, the way their org operates right now there is no way that wasnt something he'd weighed in on.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
Agree, I think Mara is trying to downplay the amount he gets involved, but I have a hard time not seeing his involvement in the SB saga, and what is arguably the most head-scratching contract in Giants history. We deserve the ridicule we get for that one.
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Some of you really try to bend things to fit the narrative you want.
Passive aggressive? WTF.
The owner would like to keep his favorite player. BFD. He really didn't push very hard, if any to keep Barkley.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
yeah hackett is a moron though, and while im sure his opinion was involved rodgers has more sway in that org than anyone other than woody. he's changed how woody operates the team in some areas more than douglas or saleh were able to.
Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
and howie roseman, ryan poles, nick caserio were the ones lined up to pay saquon.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
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Keep his favorite player or most popular? Because SB being the most popular player was squarely on his mind. And popularity is essentially another way of saying generates more revenue...
I think Mara said "he's our most popular player". That was his big concern. That's messed up.
His only concern should be building a winner regardless of whether it includes the "fan favorites". Once they build a winner, there will be plenty of popular guys and fan favorites and that will generate the most revenue.
That really stood out for me in E3. And that compounded the old school thinking Mara revealed in E2 when he basically said Barkley was our offense and it's hard for him to imagine losing Barkley.
He loves his 1980s view of the running game, and he loves seeing those #26 jerseys in the crowd for home games.
Now, you have to give the old man some credit. He broke tradition by hiring a GM who had no ties to the Giants Way. So, getting out of that box was a major step for Mara. And it seems to me it's clear he's willing to let Schoen move the Giants into modern football thinking.
At least we've removed on half of the Jones-Barkley Era. It's too bad Schoen couldn't deliver on the other part - numerous times...
I agree.
There will be discussion about players leading up to the pick--we know they work that way. This will be fascinating to see on camara and what players are discussed/debated. Obviously we hope get some specifics regarding what actually went down on any trade talks (no way do we get a full access look, but there major insights, no doubt).
i think most of the interesting stuff will be trade related.
the talks with NE obviously but also the tease about atlanta possibly offering to trade up. were there any other trade discussions we don't know about? was there someone falling out of round 1 they tried to move up for in round 2?
Quote:
to keep Saquon but everyone also likes Brandon Brown and Chris Rossetti and they seemed to want to bring him back as well.
and howie roseman, ryan poles, nick caserio were the ones lined up to pay saquon.
Paying Saquon certainly makes more sense to a team like Philly, that doesn't need him one bit, and that has plenty of extra money.
It does not make sense for the Giants, who had little money to spend, a lot of holes to fill, and spent 6 seasons fielding a bottom 5 offense with Barkley on it.
Did it seem like Schoens conversation about matching Saquons offer (12.5/yr 25 gtd) “ans then we have a press conference announcing that he’s staying a giant” was a quick conversation.
And then when he described it to Mara , he made it seem much more equivocal?
Editing?
My misperception?