I think the nuance between John Mara running a football organization and Joe Schoen running a football team is lost on many fans.
John Mara in an ultra-minority owner of the Giants (less than 5%) -- he is the president and CEO of the organization. And part, but not all of it, is the football team.
RE: RE: RE: RE: My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: My issue is that Mara does influence decisions but not in a positive
way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
Fair enough, but the point is, you need a strong GM to be successful. I don't think we had that in DG. The fact that JS made the call with Barkley, clearly a very emotional decision for the owner, is a very good sign. That doesn;t mean Schoen is the guy --his actual selections still need to pan out, but at least what we saw here is a necessary condition for success. Namely, being strong enough to make the tough calls despite owner influence. That's all I'm saying.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
brian flores and daniel jones' 5yo would disagree with that observation.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
seeing the involvement by some of the guys who work the contract stuff. Those are massively important people who don't always get visibility. That was probably one of my favorite takeaways.
(I've only watched this once and had to deal with background noise in the house so I need to watch it again... also again, it's important to note this was edited so we don't have a totally honest/accurate picture...)
- The earlier episodes gave me the strong impression that Schoen didn't REALLY want to bring back Barkley at the price points being discussed. However, this episode suggests they were still willing to pay him big bucks to bring him back. Would Schoen have done so at the $12.5 million APY with the guaranteed money being discussed in that one call? Sounds possible.
- However, if they did re-sign Barkley, they would not have had money for others, possibly Brian Burns and at the very least one of the two OLs.
- Odd more focus was not on Xavier. That feels like editing.
- Interesting that in an ideal world, they wanted to bring in three starters on the OL.
- Something is fishy/off with the discussions between Daboll and Schoen. At times, it sounds like a couple of casual fans talking rather than the two key decision makers having an honest discussion. I find it difficult to believe they were having such a cavalier discussion about team needs like that. Was that re-enacted for the camera or do they truly spitball so casually like that?
- Mixed feelings on Mara at this point. There is nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. He pays the checks. But I agree with the posts above that he has to be managed somewhat (if he's reading these comments, he's probably offended by that, but that's they way it comes across). The show/edits give the strong impression (maybe intentional) that he is kept in the loop but is not calling the shots, which is good.
- Biggest take-away for me is that it is very clear that Drew Lock is an afterthought. He was not brought in to compete for the starting job. That was the most important thing this show told me.
- I understand why they didn't but I wished they focused more on the second-tier free agents, Jalen Mills, Isaiah McKenzie, Stinnie, Schlottman, Nelson, the tight ends, Jordon Phillips, etc.
- Overall, not as good as episode two, but part of that was a function of the content (free agency).
i think they were going to do 2 OL FAs not 3.
Had Hunt taken their offer which was presumably in the 13-15m range and not gotten $20m per year, I think it's likely they would have added him and Runyan and Burns. Even at the $100m cap number, Hunt's cap hit this year is 6.45m which is actually similar to Eluemeanor's 4.75m.
id imagine once hunt's price went to 20m/year they viewed him just like barkley as too expensive.
it appears they had a contract agreed with burns the entire time even as offers were out on hunt, runyan, singletary, which must have been negotiated before the day of FA opened since the entire decision was in tepper's lap.
remember 1 other thing with burns, at some point after he accepted the deal they revised his structure and lowered his year 1 cap hit to make the deal slightly less flat. i believe not long after that they did the hodgins/phillips/simmons contracts on above minimum deals, so it's possible they wanted to shift the money knowing they had some interest in bringing those guys in. either way the point is all of it was manageable. the prices went out of their comfort zone so they went to singletary/eluemeanor as 1-2 year stop gaps.
ive been critical of schoen but i would say this was his best episode, i appreciate that he has strong discipline in negotiations even when i dont agree with his decisions. it seemed like they had both runyan and hunt identified for their pass pro plus burns and i think that was an excellent plan A.
Mara maybe meddling BUT Schoen making the final calls
Year 3 of Schoen GM tenure and his signings and picks need to start paying off.
This is his team now. Like or not DJ is his QB. Have no idea about 2025 going forward at most important position on team
Daboll seems so disinterested imv
I really enjoyed episode 2 and 3.
Can’t wait for draft episode.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
exactly right especially the bold. head coach is the other layer of protection bc you need a strong head coach even more than a strong GM, and in that area i think we can be more confident with daboll than schoen.
Schoen was clearly focused on OL before any other position which is obviously smart. And they basically made offers to all of the top guards. Again, smart.
One comment that struck me was Rosetti saying Eleumenor was going to be either their "left guard or right tackle" meaning that Neal ultimately is now showing any kind of confidence in the front office. This also struck me as Runyan was clearly the right guard.
I think every Daboll-Schoen interaction is staged and scripted, just
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
It get it, but it's annoying.
RE: OMG with the meddling owner conspiracies.... LOL
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
RE: RE: I think every Daboll-Schoen interaction is staged and scripted, just
to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
Which is why episode 2 is still my favorite. We saw the real Daboll because you can't hide those Combine interviews.
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I remember someone here posting that Dabol played music when the cameras were around so they couldn’t use his private conversations. Well…. HBO just said nice try, we will just pay the licensing fees and incorporate the music into the show.
Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
I've thought about this too. The 3D chess move would be for Mara to fall on the sword and look like the boob to those who didn't want to pay Saquon and/or look like the hero who wanted to keep him.
not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
yes - i think some are thinking the clues in there are more of an indictment of neal than what they've said publicly (i agree with you, it's more what we suspected all along and they want to give Neal another chance).
Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
I have to watch this when others are not in the room because I rewind it to listen to certain scenes again.
RE: RE: OMG with the meddling owner conspiracies.... LOL
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
Not sure what you mean, lol.... but - my Opinion is 1000% that Mara doesn't "meddle" any more than any other owner in the league... lol.
not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
So does anyone think that owners don't express how they feel/think, on every team. Mara express himself than let them make the decision. Do you think guys like Jones and Kraft aren't expressing themselves ? I think may just think or want to think Mara is micromanaging. This Hard knocks is showing the truth. He says his piece and let's them make the call
So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I remember someone here posting that Dabol played music when the cameras were around so they couldn’t use his private conversations. Well…. HBO just said nice try, we will just pay the licensing fees and incorporate the music into the show.
HAHAHAHAH - noticed that too. Took it a step further with the poker game. I couldnt pay attention to the conversation, all I could try to figure out was. Did Daboll play Beyonce and thy checkmated him? Or were they able to dub out whatever he played, and played Beyonce song over whatever he played 😆
Then I realized why the Daboll played copywrited music thing was leaked out..HBO set that whole thing up lol
about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
It's ALMOST like he has a co owener who would know how to orchestrate this for a show too...
"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
i dont think anyone is moving any bars, have we seen 1 thing from mara different than what he's said publicly?
has he not said publicly 100x he wanted barkley to be a giant for life but that it was the GMs decision? same as he has always been supportive of jones despite the 5yo being declined and the team pursuing Maye/Daniels a couple months ago?
is the internal discussion of what re-signing Barkley would have meant for the other signings. You can't give Barkley that money without losing out on other players. Schoen obviously said that, but it was edited out.
That's a really, really good point Eric.
Is the running game as a whole better with Singletary and a better O Line, or Barkley and a lesser O Line?
Obviously, the passing game is better with a better O Line.
1. Bye bye Saquon….thanks for years you gave us, glad you are now gone
2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
Obviously, we couldn't do both...
It's a tough call. Given that Hunt would have been $10M per year cheaper and would not have cost any draft capital, that would have been my preference.
is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
If your GM can’t tune out an owner’s suggestions, you have the wrong GM. Every GM worries about being fired, but the last thing anyone would want to do is to be fired for doing what they thought the owner wanted. Act on your convictions, and if things don’t work out, so be it.
That said, it is true that we don’t know if Mara acted differently off-camera, but on every decision where he expressed concern with Schoen’s choice, Schoen went with his guy anyway. I don’t see anything that would lead me to believe that Schoen doesn’t have the final say.
Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
Have no re-watched but my read was that the plan was all 3 if they could make it work. Once they had to up the offer to Runyon they said it takes that off the table.
They needed 2 IOL added. They wanted to add 2IOL and OT.
I don't know if that was to hedge the injury to Neal or because they wanted 3 new starters.
the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
John Mara in an ultra-minority owner of the Giants (less than 5%) -- he is the president and CEO of the organization. And part, but not all of it, is the football team.
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In comment 16554640 UberAlias said:
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In comment 16554628 robbieballs2003 said:
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way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
But it also may be heavily edited for obvious reasons.
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
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In comment 16554646 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16554640 UberAlias said:
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In comment 16554628 robbieballs2003 said:
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way. There is nothing wrong with an owner/CEO being involved in decision making or at least be made aware. The issue seems to be that he is forming opinions based on feelings and not data or a vision of the team. It seems like more whining than having a productive conversation or argument.
But that's why Schoen is making the decisions. I mean, we know what happened, and clearly it was Schoen, not Mara who is calling the shots.
This is one decision. What about Eli? What about Jones and Barkley the season before. If I had to guess, Mara was a big reason why they did what they did. Now, I am sure Schoen saw what happened last year and is now trying to correct it. I think Mara realizes that it was the wrong move but still wants Barkley. That is why it looks the way it does now. This is only a snapshot of what goes on but for those that think Mara is the common theme of all these bad regimes, it is only supporting their case.
So basically, you have your views, and when shown to be wrong, you refuse to adjust your thinking. Gettleman was a puppet. He probably did whatever Mara wanted. But he's not GM anymore, and for good reason.
Are you talking to me or about Mara. What am I wrong about if that is what you neant? All I am talking about is how bad this team has been for the past decade plus. The common denominator is Mara. He has to look in the mirror. All I care about is results but when you have the same shitty results with multiple regimes (GMs, coaches, players, scouts, etc.) then you can't keep blaming those around you. I have never been on that side that Mara is the problem but nothing I have seen so far tells me he isn't influencing things in a negative way.
Fair enough, but the point is, you need a strong GM to be successful. I don't think we had that in DG. The fact that JS made the call with Barkley, clearly a very emotional decision for the owner, is a very good sign. That doesn;t mean Schoen is the guy --his actual selections still need to pan out, but at least what we saw here is a necessary condition for success. Namely, being strong enough to make the tough calls despite owner influence. That's all I'm saying.
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
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should be the best, and possibly the most informative in terms of any new actual information we didn't already know.
But it also may be heavily edited for obvious reasons.
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
- Something tells me 18 months ago Schoen would let himself be influenced by the Meddling but has gotten to a point where he realizes he needs to ignore it
brian flores and daniel jones' 5yo would disagree with that observation.
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is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
- The earlier episodes gave me the strong impression that Schoen didn't REALLY want to bring back Barkley at the price points being discussed. However, this episode suggests they were still willing to pay him big bucks to bring him back. Would Schoen have done so at the $12.5 million APY with the guaranteed money being discussed in that one call? Sounds possible.
- However, if they did re-sign Barkley, they would not have had money for others, possibly Brian Burns and at the very least one of the two OLs.
- Odd more focus was not on Xavier. That feels like editing.
- Interesting that in an ideal world, they wanted to bring in three starters on the OL.
- Something is fishy/off with the discussions between Daboll and Schoen. At times, it sounds like a couple of casual fans talking rather than the two key decision makers having an honest discussion. I find it difficult to believe they were having such a cavalier discussion about team needs like that. Was that re-enacted for the camera or do they truly spitball so casually like that?
- Mixed feelings on Mara at this point. There is nothing wrong with him voicing his opinion. He pays the checks. But I agree with the posts above that he has to be managed somewhat (if he's reading these comments, he's probably offended by that, but that's they way it comes across). The show/edits give the strong impression (maybe intentional) that he is kept in the loop but is not calling the shots, which is good.
- Biggest take-away for me is that it is very clear that Drew Lock is an afterthought. He was not brought in to compete for the starting job. That was the most important thing this show told me.
- I understand why they didn't but I wished they focused more on the second-tier free agents, Jalen Mills, Isaiah McKenzie, Stinnie, Schlottman, Nelson, the tight ends, Jordon Phillips, etc.
- Overall, not as good as episode two, but part of that was a function of the content (free agency).
i think they were going to do 2 OL FAs not 3.
Had Hunt taken their offer which was presumably in the 13-15m range and not gotten $20m per year, I think it's likely they would have added him and Runyan and Burns. Even at the $100m cap number, Hunt's cap hit this year is 6.45m which is actually similar to Eluemeanor's 4.75m.
id imagine once hunt's price went to 20m/year they viewed him just like barkley as too expensive.
it appears they had a contract agreed with burns the entire time even as offers were out on hunt, runyan, singletary, which must have been negotiated before the day of FA opened since the entire decision was in tepper's lap.
remember 1 other thing with burns, at some point after he accepted the deal they revised his structure and lowered his year 1 cap hit to make the deal slightly less flat. i believe not long after that they did the hodgins/phillips/simmons contracts on above minimum deals, so it's possible they wanted to shift the money knowing they had some interest in bringing those guys in. either way the point is all of it was manageable. the prices went out of their comfort zone so they went to singletary/eluemeanor as 1-2 year stop gaps.
ive been critical of schoen but i would say this was his best episode, i appreciate that he has strong discipline in negotiations even when i dont agree with his decisions. it seemed like they had both runyan and hunt identified for their pass pro plus burns and i think that was an excellent plan A.
This is his team now. Like or not DJ is his QB. Have no idea about 2025 going forward at most important position on team
Daboll seems so disinterested imv
I really enjoyed episode 2 and 3.
Can’t wait for draft episode.
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In comment 16554660 Ben in Tampa said:
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is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
It's also not an issue if you have a strong GM. And if you don't have a strong GM, you aren't going to be successful. You can say "good decisions" but if he's not studying tape and pouring over analytics, how good can you expect that decision making to be compared to the full strength of competing team's scouting departments? Not very good, IMO.
I think the notion of a Owner who has zero involvement in the big decisions is fan fantasy. Ultimately what you need is the GM making the decisions. That's what we saw here.
exactly right especially the bold. head coach is the other layer of protection bc you need a strong head coach even more than a strong GM, and in that area i think we can be more confident with daboll than schoen.
Exactly, I had the same impressions. Perfect Gif.
Schoen was clearly focused on OL before any other position which is obviously smart. And they basically made offers to all of the top guards. Again, smart.
One comment that struck me was Rosetti saying Eleumenor was going to be either their "left guard or right tackle" meaning that Neal ultimately is now showing any kind of confidence in the front office. This also struck me as Runyan was clearly the right guard.
This is my sense, but it's just a guess.
lol
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
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about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Barkley is a nationally known player. X is not. It’s as simple as that. Hard Knocks lives on forever and focusing on a little known safety is not something Skydance, NFL Films and HBO are going to do. Giants fans are just a small part of the audience watching the show.
It get it, but it's annoying.
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
I assumed the 3rd OL mentioned was about plan B for RT. But who knows.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
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to get Daboll on the show a little. Its clear he doesn't want to do it. Did you watch him leave after that cryptic 30 seconds of brainstorming session in Schoens office? He was almost running down the hall, and the look on his face was get me off this set now.
I think the same thing, but the result is that Daboll sometimes comes off looking clueless/disinterested.
Which is why episode 2 is still my favorite. We saw the real Daboll because you can't hide those Combine interviews.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
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about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
I've thought about this too. The 3D chess move would be for Mara to fall on the sword and look like the boob to those who didn't want to pay Saquon and/or look like the hero who wanted to keep him.
yes - i think some are thinking the clues in there are more of an indictment of neal than what they've said publicly (i agree with you, it's more what we suspected all along and they want to give Neal another chance).
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Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
I have to watch this when others are not in the room because I rewind it to listen to certain scenes again.
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"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
Not sure what you mean, lol.... but - my Opinion is 1000% that Mara doesn't "meddle" any more than any other owner in the league... lol.
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
Obviously, we couldn't do both...
HAHAHAHAH - noticed that too. Took it a step further with the poker game. I couldnt pay attention to the conversation, all I could try to figure out was. Did Daboll play Beyonce and thy checkmated him? Or were they able to dub out whatever he played, and played Beyonce song over whatever he played 😆
Then I realized why the Daboll played copywrited music thing was leaked out..HBO set that whole thing up lol
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about McKinney... he got way more money than Saquon. But the show completely focuses on Saquon.
Since SB was the "most popular player", I wouldn't put it past co-director/producer Mara to want to make sure the fan base knows they tried really hard to keep Barkley with this version of Hard Knocks.
It's ALMOST like he has a co owener who would know how to orchestrate this for a show too...
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"Holy Shit!! The owner of the team has a personal opinion on the players that play on the team that he owns! And he expresses them to his GM! ERMAHGERD!! Oh what a world, what a world! The Nerve!! The Cheek!! The GALL!! Now Schoen is on the hot seat!! THAT'S SO WHY we are still trotting out Daniel Jones!!"
lol
At least you're moving the bar. Just a a few months ago, it was "conspiracy theory" to say John had any significant say in personnel matters.
At least you're making progress.
i dont think anyone is moving any bars, have we seen 1 thing from mara different than what he's said publicly?
has he not said publicly 100x he wanted barkley to be a giant for life but that it was the GMs decision? same as he has always been supportive of jones despite the 5yo being declined and the team pursuing Maye/Daniels a couple months ago?
That's a really, really good point Eric.
Is the running game as a whole better with Singletary and a better O Line, or Barkley and a lesser O Line?
Obviously, the passing game is better with a better O Line.
Seems clear what Schoen felt
2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
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not sure why fans are making a big deal out of Eluemunor being an option at two spots. Didn't we all know this?
Right. After the signing, that was a big talking point - Eluemunor's versatility; and the possibility he could be the solution at RT with Neal's history of injuries and poor play.
I've been thinking more about this. What would have helped the team more? Using money and draft capital to acquire Burns or going for a big upgrade at G with Hunt?
Obviously, we couldn't do both...
It's a tough call. Given that Hunt would have been $10M per year cheaper and would not have cost any draft capital, that would have been my preference.
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is if its more or less the same for every owner in the NFL? Is it more or less than owner class who act as CEOs of their teams?
I tend to believe billionaires who run hugely successful business' and also own NFL teams probably voice their opinion about as much as Mara did in that episode.
I was also relieved to see that while Schoen placated Mara, it never really seemed like he was being influenced by what he was saying.
Again, the "meddling" isn't an issue if your owner has good judgment.
But if he is George Costanza...
If your GM can’t tune out an owner’s suggestions, you have the wrong GM. Every GM worries about being fired, but the last thing anyone would want to do is to be fired for doing what they thought the owner wanted. Act on your convictions, and if things don’t work out, so be it.
That said, it is true that we don’t know if Mara acted differently off-camera, but on every decision where he expressed concern with Schoen’s choice, Schoen went with his guy anyway. I don’t see anything that would lead me to believe that Schoen doesn’t have the final say.
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Like I said, I will have to go back and re-watch because I know I missed out on some stuff. I may have missed the 2 versus 3 OL thing.
yea i do the same and havent rewatched yet either, pretty sure it was more of a 2/3 thing but they didnt know which 2 they could get and dropped down to eluemeanor once hunt got too expensive.
They needed 2 IOL added. They wanted to add 2IOL and OT.
I don't know if that was to hedge the injury to Neal or because they wanted 3 new starters.
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
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In comment 16554624 Section331 said:
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball