If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
RE: the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
But you have no idea what they think of JJM in comparison to Jones (or Penix and Nix for that matter), you just move the goalposts everytime info comes along disproving the faulty narrative you so desperately cling to. It's really quite adorable. Never give up!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
Quote:
They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
RE: RE: the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
But you have no idea what they think of JJM in comparison to Jones (or Penix and Nix for that matter), you just move the goalposts everytime info comes along disproving the faulty narrative you so desperately cling to. It's really quite adorable. Never give up!
I'm not the one moving the goalposts. Yes, they MAY think Jones is better than JJM. Happy now? That still changes nothing. My goalposts are firmly in place - you do not take a QB with a high 1st round pick unless you have a conviction on him. A slight upgrade doesn't move the needle, especially when a player is custom-built for your needs.
The only ones here that desperately cling to narratives are those who, like you, have tried to make every utterance of Jones's name on HK a confirmation of their belief in him.
You simply do NOT go looking at trading multiple firsts for an upgrade at the position, especially a slight upgrade!, if you believe in the guy you just signed to a $40M contract.
Do you think the Bengals were investigating trade up options to replace Burrow?
You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
You are such a tiresome troll. I said "small upgrade" as an example of why they might have any interest in JJM. You may be right, he may not be an upgrade over Jones. I honestly don't give a shit. He wouldn't move the needle one bit.
Meanwhile, you're the genius who thinks they should blow a high 1st rounder even if he's only a slight upgrade. But keep going on parsing my words.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
RE: RE: RE: the eagles are the most aggressive cap manipulator but for context
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
I get that, but Daboll and Schoen are likely thinking that they made the playoffs with Jones before. Fix he defense, the OL, add some weapons, and let's see what he can do. And making the playoffs likely takes them out a draft position to take a top QB, but there are other ways to handle it.
I'm not sure how much rope drafting a QB who likely wouldn't start for most of the season really gives him. They apparently tried like hell to get Maye, I'm sure DC said NFW to trading them the pick, but sorry, attempting to trade a massive haul to get a QB does not scream confidence in your starting QB.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
Carolina is next level dysfunction.
As far as PS, I don't see a similarity in their circumstances besides ushering in a new QB had they taken one.
So forgive me if this has been mentioned, but I remember someone here posting that Dabol played music when the cameras were around so they couldn’t use his private conversations. Well…. HBO just said nice try, we will just pay the licensing fees and incorporate the music into the show.
But apparently the trick worked in the 1st episode.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Some of these conversations are clearly had for HBO audience. Funny to think it actually works like, hey what are you thinking about our needs in three hours when free agency starts? WE saw that with the whole --I'm going to make an offer to our new defensive coordinator. Here is what his defense's ranked...
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
A lot of it is contrived nonsense but at least it gives a glimpse into the players they were interested in.
Chris Jones, Wilkins, Hunt etc.
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
First, I accounted for the fact that it is a show. Second, as FA is about to hit, do you really want our front office playing Acting 101? FA is an extremely fluid situation that Schoen talks about having to react to. So, either way, the whole thing is so stupid and cringeworthy. Next week, tune in to see how the Giants have no confidence in their franchise QB. The person who allowed this to happen on the NFL side and the team side should have their heads reexamined.
Some of these conversations are clearly had for HBO audience. Funny to think it actually works like, hey what are you thinking about our needs in three hours when free agency starts? WE saw that with the whole --I'm going to make an offer to our new defensive coordinator. Here is what his defense's ranked...
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
Kind of surprised that people wouldn't get that.
Exactly. I thought the session with Schoen and Daboll discussing OL FA’s was pretty clearly restaged. They sounded like a couple of rando BBI’ers at a bar.
It's a show, created for entertainment, with some tidbits on insight into the personalities that make up the Giants FO as a whole. I get that People will watch and see what they want to see, and have it conform to their opinions (me included). But seriously, sans hidden cameras in the walls at Giants HQ, are people truly expecting conversations that are not contrived for the show? Thinking they are going to garner real insight into what goes on behind closed doors where the actual "sausage" is made? I mean holy crap. lol
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
Seemed kinda weird that Mara mozies into Schoen’s offfice instead of summoning him to his. That would’ve made for more interesting viewing, Mara behind a big intimidating desk, and JS on a lower rickety stool. Indicative of who is in charge.
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
💯 agree
And that is comforting to know that JS is getting his way
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
Last line should include read, "...not manufactured or staged".
Seemed kinda weird that Mara mozies into Schoen’s offfice instead of summoning him to his. That would’ve made for more interesting viewing, Mara behind a big intimidating desk, and JS on a lower rickety stool. Indicative of who is in charge.
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
It would be interesting to see Mara's office, I agree. But there isn't anything weird IMO about Mara visiting Schoen in his own office when it's just a conversation, not a formal meeting. If anything, I'd be more surprised to find out that Mara operated in the manner you suggest.
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
"Of course an owner should have input, what would you expect?" get violently ill when Tisch speaks, and I wonder why.
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
"Of course an owner should have input, what would you expect?" get violently ill when Tisch speaks, and I wonder why.
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
It was more in the past than now but some people really dont like it.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
and a disadvantageous position after those 3 years when he's on the wrong side of 30, not under contract, and yet still taking up cap space...it's a double edged sword and a risky strategy more generally.
The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
Now we have seen a few times in this series where he uses what I call a passive-aggressive approach on Schoen. In 2024, based on what we've seen so far, it didn't work.
I do question if it did work in 2023 offseason when Jones and Barkley were coming off relatively strong seasons.
I'm not naive enough to project the scripted for-TV version of any of these guys completely on their real life qualities. But the character played by John Mara is fucking annoying.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
I'm not naive enough to project the scripted for-TV version of any of these guys completely on their real life qualities. But the character played by John Mara is fucking annoying.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
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In comment 16554668 Milton said:
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In comment 16554624 Section331 said:
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
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In comment 16554752 Section331 said:
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In comment 16554668 Milton said:
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In comment 16554624 Section331 said:
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
It must be nice to operate is if every decision happens in a vacuum and doesn’t impact decisions down the road. It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
Get it now?
But the "game breaker" is dependant on the QB. He's not going to break any games if the QB is incapable of getting him the ball
Very true, but now they have the game breaker, they can figure out the QB thing next year, if they need to (a hat tip to the DJFC - I’m not totally ruling out him stepping up his play this year). You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
I didn’t think that would be so difficult to understand.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
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saquon barkley cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
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It’s not just a small upgrade at QB, it’s losing out on a game breaker at a position of weakness. The “small” upgrade at QB isn’t worth that price.
But you have no idea what they think of JJM in comparison to Jones (or Penix and Nix for that matter), you just move the goalposts everytime info comes along disproving the faulty narrative you so desperately cling to. It's really quite adorable. Never give up!
I'm not the one moving the goalposts. Yes, they MAY think Jones is better than JJM. Happy now? That still changes nothing. My goalposts are firmly in place - you do not take a QB with a high 1st round pick unless you have a conviction on him. A slight upgrade doesn't move the needle, especially when a player is custom-built for your needs.
The only ones here that desperately cling to narratives are those who, like you, have tried to make every utterance of Jones's name on HK a confirmation of their belief in him.
You simply do NOT go looking at trading multiple firsts for an upgrade at the position, especially a slight upgrade!, if you believe in the guy you just signed to a $40M contract.
Do you think the Bengals were investigating trade up options to replace Burrow?
Pretty much. They've covered their bases in case Neal flops again at RT---which I think he will.
But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
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You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
You are such a tiresome troll. I said "small upgrade" as an example of why they might have any interest in JJM. You may be right, he may not be an upgrade over Jones. I honestly don't give a shit. He wouldn't move the needle one bit.
Meanwhile, you're the genius who thinks they should blow a high 1st rounder even if he's only a slight upgrade. But keep going on parsing my words.
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
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In comment 16554751 Eric on Li said:
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saquon barkley cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 5.5m
singletary cap hits:
2024 = 3.8m
2025 = 6.25m
yes there's money for barkley beyond those 2 years that isn't there for singletary, but the giants are very likely back on a rookie QB scale by 2026 whereas the eagles aren't.
The NFL has to remove adding years beyond the contract length for cap purposes. Barkley signed a 3 year deal…..the entire contract must be used I up in those 3 years….no adding void years.
why? i think the way philly did the contract was stupid personally, but who cares?
the giants or any other team could have done the contract the same if they wanted to.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
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In comment 16554772 Scooter185 said:
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
I get that, but Daboll and Schoen are likely thinking that they made the playoffs with Jones before. Fix he defense, the OL, add some weapons, and let's see what he can do. And making the playoffs likely takes them out a draft position to take a top QB, but there are other ways to handle it.
I'm not sure how much rope drafting a QB who likely wouldn't start for most of the season really gives him. They apparently tried like hell to get Maye, I'm sure DC said NFW to trading them the pick, but sorry, attempting to trade a massive haul to get a QB does not scream confidence in your starting QB.
Hell, no, but like I said, if your GM doesn't know how to handle an owners input, you have the wrong GM!
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In comment 16554772 Scooter185 said:
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
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In comment 16554794 Section331 said:
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In comment 16554772 Scooter185 said:
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But I don't see how "Gosh darn, DJ just didn't play well this year, welp we'll get a QB in April" doesn't have further reaching consequences, such as being in the HC market in 2025 as well.
Decisions aren't made in a vacuum but outcomes don't occur in one either
I'm not sure what you're point is. Drafting JJM likely has zero impact on this year, other than meaning that Malik Nabers wouldn't be a Giant WR. Even the most optimistic JJM fans felt he needed seasoning before taking the starting job. How does that play into Daboll's 2025 hopes?
I will say it for the umpteenth time, as I have said any number of times over the many years I've been here, you DO NOT take a QB with a high 1st unless you have a conviction on him. The idea of using that high a pick on a slight upgrade is quite honestly one of the dumbest things I have seen here.
As Schoen said, don't shop hungry. Blowing top picks on slight upgrades is shopping after a week-long fast.
And if Jones doesn't play well what are they going to be doing next season? Shopping after 40 days and 40 nights without food?
My point is that a bad year from Jones may cost Daboll his job and no one is going to give a damn about taking "the best player in the draft" if the Giants don't win games. Taking a QB would have bought him leash to develop said QB.
Would drafting a quarterback buy Daboll time? Drafting Jones bought Shurmer no time, to say nothing of Frank Reich and Bryce Young.
Carolina is next level dysfunction.
As far as PS, I don't see a similarity in their circumstances besides ushering in a new QB had they taken one.
But apparently the trick worked in the 1st episode.
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The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
Kind of surprised that people wouldn't get that.
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In comment 16554811 The Mike said:
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The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
Chris Jones, Wilkins, Hunt etc.
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
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In comment 16554829 5BowlsSoon said:
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In comment 16554811 The Mike said:
Quote:
The Burns trade still amazes me. Kudos to Schoen - all of the other moves dwarf in comparison in free agency to this success. Feels like Tepper is making precisely the same mistake with Young as the Giants made with DJ.
- On Barkley, this was the right outcome, but only after six years of mismanagement. He should never have been drafted second, he should have been traded at the last two trade deadlines and he should have been given the contract he wanted last year so as to franchise DJ. A tortuous path, but the proper ending. And the contract he got from the Eagles is precisely what a Super Bowl contender should do, and precisely what a rebuilding team should not do.
- Feel a bit better about not getting Robert Hunt. I thought this was the paramount move of the off season and was furious when they settled for Runyan. But it does appear from this episode that Schoen at least prioritized Hunt and tried. Again, when your injury prone middling quarterback has the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year there is only so much you can do.
- Eluemenor can't get to starting right tackle fast enough. It did appear from the episode that this is the expectation. Or maybe just a Freudian slip? Move Neal to guard asap and/or trade him at the trade deadline this year.
- On Mara, the issue has never been "meddling". It has always been utter and resolute incompetence. If Mara were a genius or a guru, we would expect him to be intimately involved with every football decision. But he isn't. So his way of influencing is to use passive aggressive meddling so as to shift all accountability to the GM. And if the GM is weak or unable to effectively push back, like Gettleman, then we are left with terrible decision making. The loud enunciation of "BY FAR" in reference to losing Saquon was for me the best example and most annoying moment of the entire series so far. So to me, it seems that Schoen is now at least now "passive aggressively" rejecting Mara's meddling and making sensible decisions. I do think this evolution though is a function of the massive mistake last year to bet the franchise on DJ, which I am certain now in hindsight that Schoen acquiesced to Mara's insanity rather than properly rejecting it.
But this is indeed Joe Schoen's team now. Is it so bogged down from the DJ disaster that Schoen won't have adequate runway to recover? Time will tell.
I don’t think Schoen has to worry about losing his job. He has done enough and has made many good decisions to benefit our team. I still can’t fault him that much for the Jones contract….after all, it basically tied us to him for only two years. After the good year Jones had in 2022, winning us a playoff game as well, I think he felt his hands tied to staying with him a bit longer to see further advancement. Last year was a nightmare with losing Thomas in game one and replacing him with Ezeudu, a guy who knew nothing about playing tackle.
The Schoen I am watching and again I realize it is edited, seems out of his depth. The conversations they were having about FA five minutes before it started seem to be conversations they should have been having months before, especially that conversation with Daboll right before FA startred. With that said, I do realize that this conversation could have been staged etc for the cameras to get some narrative about FA. The thing that strikes me about Schoen is how reactive he seems to be. But again, its hard to know what is genuine and what is not. However, you would have to think the Giants FO is cringing watching this knowing that their players are watching this. Unlike Hard Knocks which usually focus's on bottom of the roster, this process is going to the core elements of our team. I can't imagine these guys like this.
Dude, it is a SHOW.. The talk is cleary designed for that episode specifically and was most LIKELY talked ad nauseum before that. Come on.. You think Schoen woke up that day and goes, wait what if we offer Barkley this can we do that- and never had discussed it before...
First, I accounted for the fact that it is a show. Second, as FA is about to hit, do you really want our front office playing Acting 101? FA is an extremely fluid situation that Schoen talks about having to react to. So, either way, the whole thing is so stupid and cringeworthy. Next week, tune in to see how the Giants have no confidence in their franchise QB. The person who allowed this to happen on the NFL side and the team side should have their heads reexamined.
Meanwhile, what we really know about the defensive coordinator is that it was a long process with several candidates being interviewed. Blatantly done for the audience.
Kind of surprised that people wouldn't get that.
Exactly. I thought the session with Schoen and Daboll discussing OL FA’s was pretty clearly restaged. They sounded like a couple of rando BBI’ers at a bar.
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
Daboll: "This is bullshit."
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
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The Maranoia stuff is hilarious. The GMs job is to get input from all involved. He should want Mara’s input even if it’s annoying. To expect the guy to not even have an opinion? Cmon now.
That said, as stated above all of these conversations seem manufactured. The real conversations happened sometime else. Or at least I hope so.
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
💯 agree
And that is comforting to know that JS is getting his way
No one should be surprised Mara skulks around and has these interactions with the GM he hired. Totally expected.
To me, the biggest confirmation of this series is Schoen is getting his way with personnel decisions. And managing Mara along the way. If Mara really wanted to keep his "most popular player" Barkley would have signed. It's as simple as that. He loves Barkley and the how he impacts other revenue streams...
I'm pretty sure that is manufactured or staged. Other stuff? Sure.
Last line should include read, "...not manufactured or staged".
Good chance his office is like a museum of football history, with memorabilia and photos dating back a hundred years (ie the centennial season).
It would be interesting to see Mara's office, I agree. But there isn't anything weird IMO about Mara visiting Schoen in his own office when it's just a conversation, not a formal meeting. If anything, I'd be more surprised to find out that Mara operated in the manner you suggest.
Hard Knocks: "This is bullshit. We don't have any material on Daboll. The fucker keeps playing his hip hop music over every conversation and runs from us every time he sees a camera."
Hanlon: "Relax. We'll figure something out. We'll get him to play along."
PR team to Daboll: "This is part of your job description. Give us 5 minutes and we'll stage a faux conversation and let you get back to work."
Daboll: "This is bullshit."
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
Bingo
So you're saying he doesn't have the Kate Mara acting gene. ;)
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But if you don’t think Mara actually thinks the way he spoke about Saqoun, you’re fooling yourself.
So you're saying he doesn't have the Kate Mara acting gene. ;)
Or the looks
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"Of course an owner should have input, what would you expect?" get violently ill when Tisch speaks, and I wonder why.
Perhaps my memory is off, but I don't remember much of that. In fact, I remember the opposite where people were calling for Tisch to get more involved.
It was more in the past than now but some people really dont like it.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Because for the next 3 years the Eagles have very little salary cap being used on a guy making 37 million. They did the same, even worse, regarding Hurts. Hurts’ big cap hit is in 2029. That gives them about 4 years to add players because their cap space is not be affected in a big way based on their contracts.
This allows for them to buy many more assets, which puts them at an advantage for the next 3 or so years.
and a disadvantageous position after those 3 years when he's on the wrong side of 30, not under contract, and yet still taking up cap space...it's a double edged sword and a risky strategy more generally.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
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The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
Now we have seen a few times in this series where he uses what I call a passive-aggressive approach on Schoen. In 2024, based on what we've seen so far, it didn't work.
I do question if it did work in 2023 offseason when Jones and Barkley were coming off relatively strong seasons.
I think, if anything, Mara toned down his support for resigning Saquon.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
Write that guy off the show please.
He's shuffling around in his half zip and Skethcers, mumbling inaudibly and quipping about silly stuff.
Write that guy off the show please.
LOL