1. Bye bye Saquon….thanks for years you gave us, glad you are now gone
2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
I didn't see what Brown and Rossetti suggested as unreasonable. I really wish we'd seen the deliberations between Brown and Schoen when they decided that the price tag was too high for Barkley.
On #6 - I can't help but wonder how Panthers fans feel about that trade after watching that episode. Although for all we know, the owner told Morgan to trade Burns and he didn't have real leverage in the negotiations with Schoen.
Also - what actual value does Tim McDonnell provide? I have yet to hear him contribute anything insightful and they keep showing him in these meetings, and he's useless. Oh, except where he provided stats about Burns' sacks compared to the other draft classes, which any 12 year old with Internet access could have done. A better point might have been how well he did in spite of how lousy the Panthers teams were.
Mara's comment about Barkley being the 'most popular player' was inane. Fortunately Schoen and Brown don't let sentiment get in the way of good decision making. At least, not in this past offseason.
It may have been said elsewhere, but I also find it encouraging that Schoen works with Brown to make these decisions. I had the sense that Gettleman just did whatever he wanted and didn't ask anyone for an opinion, or if he did, he ignored it. I also don't see how Brown isn't hired by another front office as a GM within the next few years. He's really impressive. No wonder the Eagles were so mad he got away.
RE: Cowherd criticizing Schoen for not respecting Mara
as many suspected, Tim McDonnell is not coming off particularly well. He was already behind the 8-ball due to his revealed texts with the Patriots.
1,000%. I keep hoping the beat writers will come away from these episodes wondering why he has the position he does. And asking questions about him. He reminds me of that useless family member in Casino that drove DeNiro crazy. I wonder if Schoen/Brown see him that same way.
Cowherd doesn't seem to realize that the Giants are also owned by Tisch. Who, in my opinion, told Mara he had to hire a GM from the outside and respect his decision making. And is smart enough not to look like a bumbling idiot on screen.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
Exactly right Milton! I think the Giants still believe they can win with Jones if they give him a supporting cast. I think they think he had "no chance" last year and most likely discount it. I also think they are very concerned about his injury history and don't see him as a TOP LEVEL QB.
Therfore you look at options to trade up if it is possible to get a QB who can be TOP LEVEL. Otherwise you roll with Jones and get him OL and better weapons. I believe they still think he can be successful, but are looking to hedge their bets.
The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
were those people denying that john mara was making comments like this publicly or just not paying attention?
Mar 28, 2022 "We're not shopping Saquon, but Joe's the general manager," Mara told reporters, per Pat Leonard of the NY Daily News. "If he and the head coach want to make a personnel decision and have a conviction about it, I'm not gonna interfere with it. But that's not something we're actively looking to do, let's put it that way."
3/27/2023, John Mara wants Saquon Barkley to be Giant for life, but no long-term offer is on table
'I told Saquon we want him to be a Giant for his entire career'
Mar. 27, 2023 = John Mara’s message to Giants’ Saquon Barkley: We want you back — but you’re not going to break the bank
3/24/24 = Giants’ John Mara ‘sick’ about losing Saquon Barkley
mara has been saying all the same things he said on HK re barkley publicly for the last 2+ years.
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
RE: RE: RE: Cowherd criticizing Schoen for not respecting Mara
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
winning organizations tend to be focused and working in lock step
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
I propose a by-law that the CEO doesn't get to have a favorite player unless that player contributed to a Super Bowl win. That way I at least get something out of it.
RE: RE: RE: It’s also not about Mara having an opinion
winning organizations tend to be focused and working in lock step
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Mara is not the only owner of this team. And to me, the most successful football organizations are ones where the owner lets the professionals make the decisions. Somehow I don't think Biscotti is whining to DeCosta about personnel decisions he makes for the Ravens.
I propose a by-law that the CEO doesn't get to have a favorite player unless that player contributed to a Super Bowl win. That way I at least get something out of it.
It's very disappoint not seeing you in this thread, btw... DSFC - ( New Window )
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It may be contrived for TV
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
the context of most owners opinions is usually worse than fan's feelings. certainly was for the snyders, wilpons, dolans, woody johnsons, jerry jones, charles wangs, maybe even hal steinbrenner at this point. those feelings can run the gamut anywhere from micromanaging egomaniacs, to flagrantly cheap, to rotten to the core illegal.
also who is to say that's exclusively where mara's feelings come from? is it possible he thinks barkley can help them win? id imagine that's what howie roseman and jeffrey lurie believe.
You don’t think Cowboy fans aren’t annoyed with Jerry Jones? They’re probably more annoyed than Giants fans are with Mara. How other owners operate isn’t relevant to the Giants.
There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that Mara doesn’t realize what it takes to turn around this franchise.
Reversing course on the Eli benching because of the fan outrage, and not moving on from Eli that offseason.
The way he’s spoken about Saqoun. Hanging on to Coughlin too long.
There’s more evidence to suggest that is where John’s feelings are coming from than not. Did he not mention the fans and jersey sales in the clip?
You don’t think Cowboy fans aren’t annoyed with Jerry Jones? They’re probably more annoyed than Giants fans are with Mara. How other owners operate isn’t relevant to the Giants.
Cowboy fans hate Jerry Jones with the fire of a thousand suns as they should since his ego blew up a real dynasty and has held them back for 3+ decades since and counting. Panther fans feel the same about Tepper, just a few years after he was the next great hope. If Jet fans knew half of how Woody Johnson runs the Jets they'd spontaneously combust. Aaron Rodgers almost did.
I disagree that how other owners operate isn't relevant because that's the competitive set. Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on. On the scale of owners Mara is probably average or above average and i can accept that bc no owner is winning a ring, it's the people they hire. If Schoen/Daboll are the goods the team will win. The complaints about him are so minor compared to what the real crappy owners do, which is first and foremost drive away anyone with any talent as jerry jones did with jimmy johnson. i dont understand anyone who has rooted for the other NY teams and experienced what its like with a wilpon/dolan owned team to not appreciate that at the least mara isnt even in that universe. but i guess there's a subset of mets fans that moronically complain about Steve Cohen so people can complain about anything.
RE: RE: We’re talking about John Mara not James Dolan
Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
winning organizations tend to be focused and working in lock step
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Lock step? Every organization has discussions about the team. You don't want a bunch of pollyannas, so they are in lockstep. I want varying views and opinions so that a more informed decision can be made.
You make it sound like John Mara should say Barkley is our favorite player and Joe schoen should agree and pay him. Everyone sings kumbaya.
The lockstep is in being able to voice different opinions and thoughts and yet supporting the guy who ultimately makes the decision.
John Mara has not publicly or any other way criticized Joe schoen for his decisions or undermined him in anyway.
that Schoen/Daboll were indeed eager to move on from Jones. And were very disappointed when they couldn't execute the trade with the Pats.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
respectfully im pretty sure the ghost chasing is being done by those trying to read into comments that are no different than public comments mara has made 100x. comments he has always conditioned that his gm has the autonomy to feel differently - exactly as has happened often since schoen got hired.
that Schoen/Daboll were indeed eager to move on from Jones. And were very disappointed when they couldn't execute the trade with the Pats.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
The fact that he is the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year is probably not enough of a clue for DJ to understand that he needs to elevate the offense this year if the team is to have a successful season. DJ's biggest problem after all has always been his inability to process things quickly. So good job by Joe Schoen in making this clear on HardKnocks!
I give Schaboll credit for recognizing they need to upgrade quarterback. But bad marks for the previous commitment.
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
"If your GM doesn't have the backbone to not give in to the owner, he wasn't the right guy anyway."
I agree with this sentiment, but *if* you believe this you also have to acknowledge that that effectively makes this job more difficult than it has to be.
That makes it difficult for an outsider to come into this building and have success, and one of the Giants' biggest failures in the past decade is insistence on being a closed bubble of insiders and friends 'n family.
It creates an added layer of difficulty for an already difficult job. A rookie GM is now not just having to learn the job but also how to navigate the maze of managing personalities that are supposed to be allies.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They did a good job of showing how quick and tense
You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Speaking of moving goal posts, didn't you argue last week that the Giants' interest in QBs was all a ruse to get Nabers to fall to them? Now you're arguing that the Giants did have interest in trading up because they viewed one of the tops guys as a Mahomes level talent?
Link - ( New Window )
2. Schoen is a beast GM….he knew Morgan was a “friend” and they have a relationship to mutually benefit each other in the future. Schoen will probably throw him a bone soon.
3. Not happy Brandon Brown and Rossetti “encouraged” Schoen to reach out and make an offer to Saquon instead of letting him get back after testing the market
4. Dabs disappoints me in not wanting us to be “entertained”:
5. Glad we got Burns, all those OL guys, and Motor…not sure how I feel about Lock
6. Surprised Morgan accepted our offer for Burns. I thought it would have taken both 2s to get the deal done. I thought that is what he would have wanted…not a 2 and 5.
I didn't see what Brown and Rossetti suggested as unreasonable. I really wish we'd seen the deliberations between Brown and Schoen when they decided that the price tag was too high for Barkley.
On #6 - I can't help but wonder how Panthers fans feel about that trade after watching that episode. Although for all we know, the owner told Morgan to trade Burns and he didn't have real leverage in the negotiations with Schoen.
Also - what actual value does Tim McDonnell provide? I have yet to hear him contribute anything insightful and they keep showing him in these meetings, and he's useless. Oh, except where he provided stats about Burns' sacks compared to the other draft classes, which any 12 year old with Internet access could have done. A better point might have been how well he did in spite of how lousy the Panthers teams were.
Mara's comment about Barkley being the 'most popular player' was inane. Fortunately Schoen and Brown don't let sentiment get in the way of good decision making. At least, not in this past offseason.
It may have been said elsewhere, but I also find it encouraging that Schoen works with Brown to make these decisions. I had the sense that Gettleman just did whatever he wanted and didn't ask anyone for an opinion, or if he did, he ignored it. I also don't see how Brown isn't hired by another front office as a GM within the next few years. He's really impressive. No wonder the Eagles were so mad he got away.
Is there anyone in sports media worth listening to anymore?
Seriously.
1,000%. I keep hoping the beat writers will come away from these episodes wondering why he has the position he does. And asking questions about him. He reminds me of that useless family member in Casino that drove DeNiro crazy. I wonder if Schoen/Brown see him that same way.
Cowherd doesn't seem to realize that the Giants are also owned by Tisch. Who, in my opinion, told Mara he had to hire a GM from the outside and respect his decision making. And is smart enough not to look like a bumbling idiot on screen.
I could be wrong, but thought I saw him in the top right at the combine footage.
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I have not scanned the room when they have group shots. Has anyone seen Ryan Cowden?
I could be wrong, but thought I saw him in the top right at the combine footage.
You're right. I did think I spotted him briefly at the Combine. Curious to know if he's been in any of these meetings at the facility.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Tisch is part of the organization too, but he chooses not to mope around the building.
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If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Come on, NO ONE sees either Daniels or Mayes as the next Mahomes or Manning.
Then don't fucking draft them in the top 3!
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They were trying to upgrade the QB position. That they chose not to roll the dice with JJM merely means they thought he would not be enough of an upgrade over Jones.
Hahaha you crack me up the way you throw in the "enough of an upgrade" because you don't want to admit they didn't see him as an upgrade at all. According to you, they want to upgrade the QB position, but a small upgrade isn't good enough. If you think you need to upgrade the QB position and there's a prospect that succeeds in doing that, then you pull the trigger. The reality is Daniel Jones finished the year on IR. The same way he'd finished three of the prior four years. That's why you take a QB worthy of a top 3 pick when you have a shot at him, regardless of how satisfied with the talent level of your current injury-plagued QB who at the time was unable to pass a physical. To not pursue a worthy QB under those circumstances would be malpractice. It doesn't mean they had lost confidence in Jones when healthy.
Exactly right Milton! I think the Giants still believe they can win with Jones if they give him a supporting cast. I think they think he had "no chance" last year and most likely discount it. I also think they are very concerned about his injury history and don't see him as a TOP LEVEL QB.
Therfore you look at options to trade up if it is possible to get a QB who can be TOP LEVEL. Otherwise you roll with Jones and get him OL and better weapons. I believe they still think he can be successful, but are looking to hedge their bets.
Quote:
In comment 16554818 Eric from BBI said:
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The goal posts have definitely shifted. This has been an ongoing discussion for years with one side insisting Mara did not put his hands on the scale.
That argument is no longer made because of the video evidence.
what is there in video evidence that he hasn't said publicly multiple times? is the thinking he wasnt saying in private what he says publicly?
Eric, all I'm saying is that for months, we had numerous posters on this site saying John Mara did not weigh in on personnel matters in a significant way. It wasn't one or two or three people on this site.
were those people denying that john mara was making comments like this publicly or just not paying attention?
Mar 28, 2022 "We're not shopping Saquon, but Joe's the general manager," Mara told reporters, per Pat Leonard of the NY Daily News. "If he and the head coach want to make a personnel decision and have a conviction about it, I'm not gonna interfere with it. But that's not something we're actively looking to do, let's put it that way."
3/27/2023, John Mara wants Saquon Barkley to be Giant for life, but no long-term offer is on table
'I told Saquon we want him to be a Giant for his entire career'
Mar. 27, 2023 = John Mara’s message to Giants’ Saquon Barkley: We want you back — but you’re not going to break the bank
3/24/24 = Giants’ John Mara ‘sick’ about losing Saquon Barkley
mara has been saying all the same things he said on HK re barkley publicly for the last 2+ years.
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But if you don’t think Mara actually thinks the way he spoke about Saqoun, you’re fooling yourself.
I think, if anything, Mara toned down his support for resigning Saquon.
Right. Occam’s razor suggests it’s worse when the cameras are off, not non existent.
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In comment 16554929 ajr2456 said:
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But if you don’t think Mara actually thinks the way he spoke about Saqoun, you’re fooling yourself.
I think, if anything, Mara toned down his support for resigning Saquon.
Right. Occam’s razor suggests it’s worse when the cameras are off, not non existent.
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
Apparently Fox is parting ways with Bayless.
Cowherd should be next.
Imbecile.
what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
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as many suspected, Tim McDonnell is not coming off particularly well. He was already behind the 8-ball due to his revealed texts with the Patriots.
The Nephew is an idiot.
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. Link - ( New Window )
Apparently Fox is parting ways with Bayless.
Cowherd should be next.
Imbecile.
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
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He’s part of the organization of course he will.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Tisch is part of the organization too, but he chooses not to mope around the building.
Tisch has other business interests, this is John’s business.
The Mara bit on Saquon being the most popular Giant…
I just can’t with John.
You just can’t what? Lol
He’s speaking from an owner’s perspective. Do you not think Saquon was the most popular Giant before he left? Do you think there’s a single owner in the sport who wouldn’t have the same thoughts as Mara when it comes to a fan favorite?
He allowed Schoen to let him walk without us even making a formal offer. What else matters?
Unfortunately, Fox isn't parting ways with Bayless because he sucks and is a moron, but because nobody watches his show.
Right.
Cowherd is one of the biggest phonies in sports talk. And that is saying a lot.
For example, if Schoen re-signed SB and SB hit that inflexion point where his production curve nosedived, he would be first in line to criticize Schoen for making a big deal for a RB.
Schoen was handed the keys to run all football operations. Mara said it was important to let Schoen make those decisions. Based on the Gettleman era, I was very skeptical.
But I've seen enough evidence from his start date that Schoen is indeed swinging the final gavel. And a big part of his job is getting Mara comfortable with his final decisions.
Which is why I divert from many of my friends on this board that this is Schoen's team and he's not being strongarmed by Mara.
More time will tell if my assessment is correct...
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
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In comment 16554939 ajr2456 said:
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He’s part of the organization of course he will.
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
We saw it during the Eli benching. If the fans didn’t revolt they probably would have moved on from Eli that offseason.
Tisch is part of the organization too, but he chooses not to mope around the building.
Tisch has other business interests, this is John’s business.
I know, it's just painful to watch Mara and if he really cares what the fans think he'd spend less time there.
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Mara is not the only owner of this team. And to me, the most successful football organizations are ones where the owner lets the professionals make the decisions. Somehow I don't think Biscotti is whining to DeCosta about personnel decisions he makes for the Ravens.
It's very disappoint not seeing you in this thread, btw...
DSFC - ( New Window )
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what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
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In comment 16554991 Eric on Li said:
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what does occam suggest from the fact that barkley is in fact not a giant and joe schoen was in fact able to say "we're out" at his own discretion?
Again, making an argument that isn’t there.
Meddling doesn’t mean Mara gets his way on everything or even at all (as I said in previous posts).
If you actually read my posts instead of jumping for a fight you’d realize I said Mara voicing his opinion isn’t the bad part, it’s that the context and thought process of his opinions are bad.
that's fair but would we ever expect that to not be true of any owner?
the guys who make enough money to buy/own teams aren't likely to have done so bc of football acumen and there are endless examples of other acumen's not translating (snyder, tepper, etc). im pretty sure the best anyone can hope for of an owner is that they give their GM the autonomy that schoen clearly has.
Again, see my post at 2:44pm
It’s the context of his actual opinions that are troubling. They’re not rooted in wining, they’re rooted in feelings and what the fans will think.
the context of most owners opinions is usually worse than fan's feelings. certainly was for the snyders, wilpons, dolans, woody johnsons, jerry jones, charles wangs, maybe even hal steinbrenner at this point. those feelings can run the gamut anywhere from micromanaging egomaniacs, to flagrantly cheap, to rotten to the core illegal.
also who is to say that's exclusively where mara's feelings come from? is it possible he thinks barkley can help them win? id imagine that's what howie roseman and jeffrey lurie believe.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that Mara doesn’t realize what it takes to turn around this franchise.
Reversing course on the Eli benching because of the fan outrage, and not moving on from Eli that offseason.
The way he’s spoken about Saqoun. Hanging on to Coughlin too long.
There’s more evidence to suggest that is where John’s feelings are coming from than not. Did he not mention the fans and jersey sales in the clip?
Cowboy fans hate Jerry Jones with the fire of a thousand suns as they should since his ego blew up a real dynasty and has held them back for 3+ decades since and counting. Panther fans feel the same about Tepper, just a few years after he was the next great hope. If Jet fans knew half of how Woody Johnson runs the Jets they'd spontaneously combust. Aaron Rodgers almost did.
I disagree that how other owners operate isn't relevant because that's the competitive set. Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on. On the scale of owners Mara is probably average or above average and i can accept that bc no owner is winning a ring, it's the people they hire. If Schoen/Daboll are the goods the team will win. The complaints about him are so minor compared to what the real crappy owners do, which is first and foremost drive away anyone with any talent as jerry jones did with jimmy johnson. i dont understand anyone who has rooted for the other NY teams and experienced what its like with a wilpon/dolan owned team to not appreciate that at the least mara isnt even in that universe. but i guess there's a subset of mets fans that moronically complain about Steve Cohen so people can complain about anything.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
And exactly how would he do that even if he wanted to being that he owns 50% of the team?
Owner + GM/head of football ops + Head coach + QB.
The Giants are not operating in lockstep. Schoen and Daboll are for the most part. But there's clearly something missing with Schoen and ownership and Daboll and Jones.
Based on how Schoen is being positioned and highlighted, I can see him losing a lot of power depending on the next head coach.
Lock step? Every organization has discussions about the team. You don't want a bunch of pollyannas, so they are in lockstep. I want varying views and opinions so that a more informed decision can be made.
You make it sound like John Mara should say Barkley is our favorite player and Joe schoen should agree and pay him. Everyone sings kumbaya.
The lockstep is in being able to voice different opinions and thoughts and yet supporting the guy who ultimately makes the decision.
John Mara has not publicly or any other way criticized Joe schoen for his decisions or undermined him in anyway.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
This is the kind of motivation that will surely propel Jones to mediocrity.
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Nobody gets to choose to fire the owner just like most people don't get to choose to fire their boss. All you can do is accept either situation or choose the freedom to move on.
I literally that in multiple posts. You’re once again arguing with ghosts.
It’s a message board, we can discuss the episode of a TV show and what occurred on the TV show. You can accept the situation or choose the freedom to move on.
respectfully im pretty sure the ghost chasing is being done by those trying to read into comments that are no different than public comments mara has made 100x. comments he has always conditioned that his gm has the autonomy to feel differently - exactly as has happened often since schoen got hired.
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that Schoen/Daboll were indeed eager to move on from Jones. And were very disappointed when they couldn't execute the trade with the Pats.
It will then be interesting if the series shows how Schoen smooths things over with Team Jones.
Schoen knew he was being recorded. He didn’t sugarcoat what he said for a reason. JS wants DJ to know that he’s an albatross around the teams next if he doesn’t perform and he’s gonna know exactly where he stands. If he didn’t already. I could be wrong.
The fact that he is the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year is probably not enough of a clue for DJ to understand that he needs to elevate the offense this year if the team is to have a successful season. DJ's biggest problem after all has always been his inability to process things quickly. So good job by Joe Schoen in making this clear on HardKnocks!
Some thick irony there considering how much Schoen ponied up for Team Jones... ;)
Yep
I really like Daboll. I like his arrogance, his grumpiness, his salt of the earth vibe. I think he thinks he can coach anybody up...but would certainly prefer a real talent.
He seems 100% more genuine than his predecessor Joe Cliche.
But the discussion of meddling often misses the most important points and focuses on dumb ones.
It doesn’t matter the extent other owners are involved or if they should be. It’s unreasonable to expect any owner would not have influence on their multi-billion dollar baby.
But it would also be unreasonable to suggest that the Mara’s do not care about their perception. As we've seen them try hard to downplay their involvement. The sad thing is that we are seeing the sanitized version on Hard Knocks given that.
The only important thing is the dark matter. We cannot see it any more than we can see John Mara banging the gavel on dumb choices. But we can see what their forces exert on their surroundings.
While the argument that Mara is calling the shots is dumb. It is insane to suggest that it was on the table for JS to let Jones really test the market and perhaps leave. And that exerted a force on the negotiations that took away JS’s leverage. Hard to say it didn’t when team Jones had an ask of $50M with his resume. Any other team doesn't counter, they laugh, and laugh.
That is what makes us laughed at, why players on other teams speak up. Beyond committing to Jones we got swindled by a guy that wouldn't start for most teams. While we took a hard negotiating line with a player that starts for most teams. Even KT said this. How many people in the locker room felt the same?
The same emotionally heavy decision making we have seen on their best behavior in Hard Knocks fits into a nice horizon. The force that the Mara's exert makes us one of the worst teams in the league, accross various GMs and coaches the mark of that force is clear.
Muddle in the meddling semantics all you want. It comes down to if you want to let the Mara's convice you to downplay their involvement and impact. Tell you this regime is different and look at how they redid all the technology in the draft room! They have figured it out!
Or you are willing to sit in the uncomfortable truth that we are a low ceiling team?
As long as they keep selling enough of you on that next coach, that next GM turning it around! He's learned his lesson! He will be hands off! Daboll is the best coach we've had since TC by far. And this is heading in a direction that we lose him. Sad.
P.S. Tim looks worse, I shudder to think that we'd actually be worse off without John.
I agree with this sentiment, but *if* you believe this you also have to acknowledge that that effectively makes this job more difficult than it has to be.
That makes it difficult for an outsider to come into this building and have success, and one of the Giants' biggest failures in the past decade is insistence on being a closed bubble of insiders and friends 'n family.
It creates an added layer of difficulty for an already difficult job. A rookie GM is now not just having to learn the job but also how to navigate the maze of managing personalities that are supposed to be allies.
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You simply do not pass up on a guy who could be a gold jacket WR for a small upgrade at QB. You take a QB that high only if you have a conviction on him.
So according to you--with absolutely no evidence to support your contention--Schoen/Daboll didn't have a conviction on JJM, but did perceive him to be a small upgrade over the QB to whom they gave $84M in guaranteed money. That's another way of saying you think Schoen and Daboll are incompetent!
In comment 16554605 Milton said:
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Schoen: “Would you trade up for Daniels?” Daboll: “Absolutely.” But they weren’t looking for a QB.
If you have a shot at the next Patrick Mahomes or Peyton Manning, you explore it regardless of who your QB is, especially when your QB has finished four of the past five years on IR. It doesn't mean you're "looking for a QB." If they were looking for a QB, they would've taken a chance on the other three that went in the top 12 (or tried their luck later in the draft on the next tier of QBs).
Speaking of moving goal posts, didn't you argue last week that the Giants' interest in QBs was all a ruse to get Nabers to fall to them? Now you're arguing that the Giants did have interest in trading up because they viewed one of the tops guys as a Mahomes level talent?