Lets assume the Giants wouldn't trade him to Dallas or Philly. That leaves baltimore, buff, texans and maybe the Chiefs as the other likely interested teams.
Best case is probably one of those teams late 2nd which falls between 59-64 overall. 3rd rounder might be more likely but I think a late 2nd would have possible and definitely worth it.
But did he even try? Thats the fair criticism and something we probably don't know the real answer to.
Whatever draft compensation they could have gotten (my guess is a 3rd), is peanuts compared to the benefits of another few losses in the back half of the season
Based on their offseason activity, I think it's very reasonable to guess the Ravens would have traded their 2023 3rd round pick for Barkley at the deadline. Especially if the Giants picked up all but the prorated minimum salary.
1- Trading him would truly be like giving up on the season. That would is not a great message to the players
2- Barkley would need it to be the right team and at the right money - further limiting his trade value
Based on their offseason activity, I think it's very reasonable to guess the Ravens would have traded their 2023 3rd round pick for Barkley at the deadline. Especially if the Giants picked up all but the prorated minimum salary.
Huh?
The gave up nothing for Henry and are paying him $8mil/year
Not sure how that tracks?
The Ravens determined they needed a veteran running back on a short term deal.
If the Giants traded Barkley to Baltimore at the deadline last year - Baltimore gets 9 games of 2023 Barkley for less than 1M, and 2024 Barkley at a 12M option.
The Ravens determined they needed a veteran running back on a short term deal.
If the Giants traded Barkley to Baltimore at the deadline last year - Baltimore gets 9 games of 2023 Barkley for less than 1M, and 2024 Barkley at a 12M option.
That tracks.
OK, let's say the Ravens trade their 3rd rounder (I agree that is possible) but...
Then they Ravens become a much improved contender with all that hype as the season progresses - and the Giants get a 3rd rounder....
The PR would be brutal.
because it seemed like there was a high probability that Team Barkley was leaving. My guess is a day three pick would have been the best outcome since Barkley was heading to free agency and there was no guarantee of re-signing him.
1 game over 100 yards in a game where we did not throw the ball because Tommy was in and SB slid before the first down marker which would have won the game.
3 td 1 rushing 2 receiving and a fumble.
He was not lighting it up so what would you give for that performance? Plus he was injured during this time Link - ( New Window )
Given that, given the uncertainty of trade return for a player who missed most of the first half of the season with an injury that could recur, and given multiple real world reasons a deadline trade was never going to happen, from NYG's perspective, I don't see it as an issue that ranks very high, in the scheme of things.
And granted the comp projections are both mysteriously and fluid, but OTC projects the Giants will earn a 4th round comp pick as a result of McKinney, and Barkley is nullified because of Runyan.
And granted the comp projections are both mysteriously and fluid, but OTC projects the Giants will earn a 4th round comp pick as a result of McKinney, and Barkley is nullified because of Runyan.
If Barkley were not on the ledger, McKinney would have been nullified, and Giants get nothing. Doesn't matter that McKinney's projected pick is higher. You can see that if you look at all the ledgers, for comparison.
Real world, the trade was never going to happen because nobody was ready to go 1-15 or 2-14. They didn't know Jones was going to tear his ACL. The notion of Mara's paying Barkley's salary to play for someone else is real world preposterous.
1- Trading him would truly be like giving up on the season. That would is not a great message to the players
2- Barkley would need it to be the right team and at the right money - further limiting his trade value
They traded Leonard Williams...
I think JS was keeping his options open for this year
by not trading SB at the deadline and I don't think Mara would have reacted well if JS proposed a deadline deal last year. Personally I think every year the Giants should explore options to buy or sell depending on the market and return. Like the Burns deal this offseason, you never know what is possible unless you have talk to other teams.
I 100% get the benefit of hindsight in assessing plausibility and reception.
Do I think the Giants would have traded Barkley and paid his salary? No, their actions tell us otherwise. I don't possess the level of divination to reveal why, but what actually happened is good enough for me.
The question is simply, what could they have received? And maybe folded into that, would that have been a better outcome for the Giants?
If Barkley leaving as an UFA is part of the alchemy that spits out a 4th round 2025 compensatory pick, that's fair. I think we can all agree a 3rd round 2024 common pick is a better outcome.
If trading Barkley also would have kept him out of the division, I think that's a silver lining as well. Kill Schoen? I'm not in a mood for that. But in hindsight I wish better things had happened for the Giants.
Well given we're contemplating a hypothetical, and fantasies offend your sensibilities, this probably isn't the thread for you.
At the very least, I've prevented you from spreading misinformation about how comp picks work.
You are a modern day defender of the vale.
Quote:
And granted the comp projections are both mysteriously and fluid, but OTC projects the Giants will earn a 4th round comp pick as a result of McKinney, and Barkley is nullified because of Runyan.
I 100% get the benefit of hindsight in assessing plausibility and reception.
Do I think the Giants would have traded Barkley and paid his salary? No, their actions tell us otherwise. I don't possess the level of divination to reveal why, but what actually happened is good enough for me.
The question is simply, what could they have received? And maybe folded into that, would that have been a better outcome for the Giants?
If Barkley leaving as an UFA is part of the alchemy that spits out a 4th round 2025 compensatory pick, that's fair. I think we can all agree a 3rd round 2024 common pick is a better outcome.
If trading Barkley also would have kept him out of the division, I think that's a silver lining as well. Kill Schoen? I'm not in a mood for that. But in hindsight I wish better things had happened for the Giants.
Lets assume the Giants wouldn't trade him to Dallas or Philly. That leaves baltimore, buff, texans and maybe the Chiefs as the other likely interested teams.
Best case is probably one of those teams late 2nd which falls between 59-64 overall. 3rd rounder might be more likely but I think a late 2nd would have possible and definitely worth it.
But did he even try? Thats the fair criticism and something we probably don't know the real answer to.
How is it a fair criticism if you don't know if he tried or not?
The guy was back only couple weeks from yet another injury
Well given we're contemplating a hypothetical, and fantasies offend your sensibilities, this probably isn't the thread for you.
At the very least, I've prevented you from spreading misinformation about how comp picks work.
You are a modern day defender of the vale.
Quote:
And granted the comp projections are both mysteriously and fluid, but OTC projects the Giants will earn a 4th round comp pick as a result of McKinney, and Barkley is nullified because of Runyan.
If Barkley were not on the ledger, McKinney would drop down in his place and be cancelled out, because there would then be just as many NYG FAs going as coming.
You can see this if you look at the Jets ledger for comparison. Bryce Huff is projected as a 4, but he is still cancelled out by a 6.
As for the premise of this thread, it was about the bashing of Schoen for not getting what he could have gotten. If he could never have gotten Mara to pay SB's salary to pay for someone else, then it's pertinent to point that out.
I agree. And so if the comp picks go as expected they get a 3rd in 2025 rather than a 4th in 2024. Same thing. And you can spin the story to players that you are loyal as a franchise.
Gersh, I don't know we even disagree. For factors that require a level of guessing I'm certainly not equipped to make, the Giants didn't do it.
In a vacuum could they have received a 3rd or possibly 4th round common pick? I think that comfortably sits in the realm of possibilities.
I agree. and that does answer the question I posed.
Where I think we disagree is the fallout from such a trade.
I believe it would have been significantly negative.
That said, a big part of me wishes we lost a few more games last season. If DJ went down before the trade deadline, I'm not sure how that would have effected the decision to no trade Barkley.
This same team with Caleb, Daniels or Maye (even without Nabers, would make me much more hopeful).
Is it fair to say that if Barkley had agreed to a $10 million contract
Under that set of facts Barkley is worth 10 million. A player worth 10 million would certainly have trade value.
The Giants got some 'splaining to do.
But the question is not - what's his value? (as a UFA)
It is what is his trade value knowing he demanded (and received) significantly more than $10 mil/year
The answer seems to be a 3rd or 4th rounder
I'll tread lightly on why Barkley was a sacred cow, but Leonard Williams, a better and more valuable player was not. It doesn't pass the intellectual threshold, the emotional criteria is best debated by more clairvoyant BBIers.
What I wish had happened is the Giants traded Barkley out of the division for an outcome better than the contribution to a 4th round 2025 compensatory pick.
I think a 3rd round common pick in the low 90s would have been fair.
And I think the delta in value between a low 90s pick in 2024 and presumed pick in the 130s in 2025, would have been worth it.
Best case is probably one of those teams late 2nd which falls between 59-64 overall. 3rd rounder might be more likely but I think a late 2nd would have possible and definitely worth it.
But did he even try? Thats the fair criticism and something we probably don't know the real answer to.
But did he even try? That's the fair criticism and something we probably don't know the real answer to.
KC gets Barkley and Pitt gets the pick the Giants are still owed from NO in the Shockey trade.
Who says no?
It's almost as if you think there have never been player-for-pick trades at the deadline that we could use as comps.
Quote:
But did he even try? That's the fair criticism and something we probably don't know the real answer to.
But if we don't know the answer, how can it be a fair criticism?
He's stated he didn't try to trade him and I would tend to believe that. But he 100% should have gauged his value and in my opinion traded him.
I don't think Schoen had any intention whatsover in resigning him.
But it would have involved a RB, in season, with no contract. I’ll say a 3rd.
2- Barkley would need it to be the right team and at the right money - further limiting his trade value
Huh?
The gave up nothing for Henry and are paying him $8mil/year
Not sure how that tracks?
Leo was the second best DT on the team
It was expected he'd leave
Barkley was the face of the franchise
MUCH different
If the Giants traded Barkley to Baltimore at the deadline last year - Baltimore gets 9 games of 2023 Barkley for less than 1M, and 2024 Barkley at a 12M option.
That tracks.
If the Giants traded Barkley to Baltimore at the deadline last year - Baltimore gets 9 games of 2023 Barkley for less than 1M, and 2024 Barkley at a 12M option.
That tracks.
OK, let's say the Ravens trade their 3rd rounder (I agree that is possible) but...
Then they Ravens become a much improved contender with all that hype as the season progresses - and the Giants get a 3rd rounder....
The PR would be brutal.
3 td 1 rushing 2 receiving and a fumble.
He was not lighting it up so what would you give for that performance? Plus he was injured during this time
Link - ( New Window )
Given that, given the uncertainty of trade return for a player who missed most of the first half of the season with an injury that could recur, and given multiple real world reasons a deadline trade was never going to happen, from NYG's perspective, I don't see it as an issue that ranks very high, in the scheme of things.
If the 2-5 Giants traded Barkley to the Ravens for a 3rd round pick, my guess is everyone would have thought the same.
At a minimum the PR wouldn't be as bad as getting skull fucked in the media on Hard Knocks and Barkley going to Philly.
I doubt he randomly mentioned that for no reason.
He was playing on the tag. Not really "cheap" for the acquiring team
I suppose that is possible, the Giants subsidize the trade, and basically paying the remaining salary to buy a draft pick. I still think a 3rd is high
I suppose that is possible, the Giants subsidize the trade, and basically paying the remaining salary to buy a draft pick. I still think a 3rd is high
Sure, I'm guessing 3rd but maybe a 4th.
My broader point is the receiving team would get a near-free 9 game trial, and the option to buy another year at 12M.
If Barkley were not on the ledger, McKinney would have been nullified, and Giants get nothing. Doesn't matter that McKinney's projected pick is higher. You can see that if you look at all the ledgers, for comparison.
Real world, the trade was never going to happen because nobody was ready to go 1-15 or 2-14. They didn't know Jones was going to tear his ACL. The notion of Mara's paying Barkley's salary to play for someone else is real world preposterous.
Why spin fantasies.
Quote:
The Giants would have paid his salary, like they did with Williams. Cap-wise he would have been ultra cheap.
I suppose that is possible, the Giants subsidize the trade, and basically paying the remaining salary to buy a draft pick. I still think a 3rd is high
Sure, I'm guessing 3rd but maybe a 4th.
My broader point is the receiving team would get a near-free 9 game trial, and the option to buy another year at 12M.
I still think its unlikely, but possible. I mean, Gettlemen did it with Williams
For our friend Shyster, for the avoidance of any doubt.
I don't get the bashing Schoen over this, but your point is taken.
2- Barkley would need it to be the right team and at the right money - further limiting his trade value
They traded Leonard Williams...
At the very least, I've prevented you from spreading misinformation about how comp picks work.
Do I think the Giants would have traded Barkley and paid his salary? No, their actions tell us otherwise. I don't possess the level of divination to reveal why, but what actually happened is good enough for me.
The question is simply, what could they have received? And maybe folded into that, would that have been a better outcome for the Giants?
If Barkley leaving as an UFA is part of the alchemy that spits out a 4th round 2025 compensatory pick, that's fair. I think we can all agree a 3rd round 2024 common pick is a better outcome.
If trading Barkley also would have kept him out of the division, I think that's a silver lining as well. Kill Schoen? I'm not in a mood for that. But in hindsight I wish better things had happened for the Giants.
At the very least, I've prevented you from spreading misinformation about how comp picks work.
You are a modern day defender of the vale.
Do I think the Giants would have traded Barkley and paid his salary? No, their actions tell us otherwise. I don't possess the level of divination to reveal why, but what actually happened is good enough for me.
The question is simply, what could they have received? And maybe folded into that, would that have been a better outcome for the Giants?
If Barkley leaving as an UFA is part of the alchemy that spits out a 4th round 2025 compensatory pick, that's fair. I think we can all agree a 3rd round 2024 common pick is a better outcome.
If trading Barkley also would have kept him out of the division, I think that's a silver lining as well. Kill Schoen? I'm not in a mood for that. But in hindsight I wish better things had happened for the Giants.
Well defended. We will agree to disagree.
Best case is probably one of those teams late 2nd which falls between 59-64 overall. 3rd rounder might be more likely but I think a late 2nd would have possible and definitely worth it.
But did he even try? Thats the fair criticism and something we probably don't know the real answer to.
How is it a fair criticism if you don't know if he tried or not?
We're talking a 5th rounder.
Quote:
Well given we're contemplating a hypothetical, and fantasies offend your sensibilities, this probably isn't the thread for you.
At the very least, I've prevented you from spreading misinformation about how comp picks work.
You are a modern day defender of the vale.
Quote:
And granted the comp projections are both mysteriously and fluid, but OTC projects the Giants will earn a 4th round comp pick as a result of McKinney, and Barkley is nullified because of Runyan.
If Barkley were not on the ledger, McKinney would drop down in his place and be cancelled out, because there would then be just as many NYG FAs going as coming.
You can see this if you look at the Jets ledger for comparison. Bryce Huff is projected as a 4, but he is still cancelled out by a 6.
As for the premise of this thread, it was about the bashing of Schoen for not getting what he could have gotten. If he could never have gotten Mara to pay SB's salary to pay for someone else, then it's pertinent to point that out.
In a vacuum could they have received a 3rd or possibly 4th round common pick? I think that comfortably sits in the realm of possibilities.
In a vacuum could they have received a 3rd or possibly 4th round common pick? I think that comfortably sits in the realm of possibilities.
I agree. and that does answer the question I posed.
Where I think we disagree is the fallout from such a trade.
I believe it would have been significantly negative.
That said, a big part of me wishes we lost a few more games last season. If DJ went down before the trade deadline, I'm not sure how that would have effected the decision to no trade Barkley.
This same team with Caleb, Daniels or Maye (even without Nabers, would make me much more hopeful).
Under that set of facts Barkley is worth 10 million. A player worth 10 million would certainly have trade value.
The Giants got some 'splaining to do.
Under that set of facts Barkley is worth 10 million. A player worth 10 million would certainly have trade value.
The Giants got some 'splaining to do.
But the question is not - what's his value? (as a UFA)
It is what is his trade value knowing he demanded (and received) significantly more than $10 mil/year
The answer seems to be a 3rd or 4th rounder
What I wish had happened is the Giants traded Barkley out of the division for an outcome better than the contribution to a 4th round 2025 compensatory pick.
I think a 3rd round common pick in the low 90s would have been fair.
And I think the delta in value between a low 90s pick in 2024 and presumed pick in the 130s in 2025, would have been worth it.