Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
Quit backtracking. This is in this context of their being called 2nd least talented roster in the league, will have top 5 pick next year, etc. You yourself have repeatedly pointed to Vegas odds for the upcoming season as if it's some superior insight. They may be bad, or they may not. But many on the negative angle continue to push their view with such certainty. With all the spamming that's come from that direction, if that's not how it plays out, the spammers more than deserve to be called on it.
I have no idea what your views on the team are. But to say that there haven't been more than enough such accusations over the months is flat out denial. There have been many bold accusatory statements levied against the team over and over again in the various threads. Perhaps because you share similar though more moderate views you have neglected to notice. But the bold harsh statements are out there, whether you or those who have made them chose to admit it or not.
The Giants are not embarrassing themselves. Some of it is a bit lighter than I was expecting, but get it given you don't want to air certain opinions (particularly negative) to the public.
But some of it has been really cool. The draft stuff was great, the narrowing down the list of FA's to pursue was interesting. Just seeing these guys in their natural surroundings has been great as well. I was drawing a lot of parallels to my business watching this...which reminded me that football is a business too.
The irony is when they finally do it, it seems to be the most access and most polarizing Hard Knocks yet. First, the offseason format is far more entertaining than training camp or in season. The consequences of it, the media is running with theories.
It seems the popular viewpoint is to make this a Mara vs Schoen issue. It's concerning that it may show a lack of alignment, but it's also very possible this stuff was played up for the camera.
It does also seem that a lot of the media criticized NYG for taking Barkley at 2. But, a lot of the same media is criticizing NYG for letting Barkley go to Philly?
Good organizations aren't about everyone having the same opinions and views. There is a process you have to go through where different views and angles are considered to get to the right decision. Open discussion with varying viewpoints is healthy, not a symptom of a problem. Anyone thinking that people should have the correct answers right at their finger tips and everyone should share from the start are living in fantasy land. But that's where we are in social media today, unfortunately.
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
Quit backtracking. This is in this context of their being called 2nd least talented roster in the league, will have top 5 pick next year, etc. You yourself have repeatedly pointed to Vegas odds for the upcoming season as if it's some superior insight. They may be bad, or they may not. But many on the negative angle continue to push their view with such certainty. With all the spamming that's come from that direction, if that's not how it plays out, the spammers more than deserve to be called on it.
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
People are either using HKs to prove their opinion one way or the other. If there is video showing one thing, they are twisting their logic to make a scene meet their opinion. People spend so much time digging in on an opinion it becomes almost impossible to change despite what they see.
Did Schoen offer Barkley a contract after 2022? According to Schoen himself, he did.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
I wouldn't take country mouse at his word unquestioningly. He said barkley agreed to come back and give them an opportunity to match. That's not actually what happenned. he suggested it, and got no clear answer. later claiming Barkley or his agent agreed to those terms is disingenuous, If not exactly an outright lie. He said what he said and heard what he wanted to hear, at best. At worst he was simply covering his ass with his misrepresentation, which I think is actually the case.
If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
Best Take. Schoen didn't want to pay for him and Barkley knew it. Schoen has been trying to spin this for over a year, and the strain of it is something he's glad to be out from under. If he could have resigned Barkley for 11 mil he would have done it, and then only because he would have had no cover not to. He knew all along what he was gonna get, that's why he never made an offer. Same reason they didn't touch McKenzie on the show with a 10 foot pole.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
The "most popular player" comment was embarrassing, yes.
Otherwise no, I don't think so. The Giants have been a punchline for a long time. So any aspect of the team that's open to interpretation is likely to be interpreted negatively.
Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
There was never an offer, even with barkley's agent dangling him in front of them and the price. Schoen never made an offer, and Barkleys agent would have been lying to him had he gone back to Saquon and said the Giants had.They didn't. They tried to confirm his price, that's it, and never indicated whether or not they would match, that's just fact. Trying taking that convo into a courtroom and try to get it ruled as being an offer, good luck.
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
All very fair imo. It's also a product of such few people actually having a proven track record at GM. It's hard. Not many can do it. The hope is Schoen can grow into the job.
It's designed to be light entertainment, and I'm aware of that too
They're not digging too deep on more sensitive subjects, again a limited field of vision being fed to us, as appropriate. We're seeing/hearing what they're ok with or want us to consume. But, I can't shake the instinct they're trying to play the game with a poor hand of cards too often.
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
RE: RE: RE: RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
You go right ahead and call me out. Except I've never declared they would be good, so not exactly sure what you'd be calling me out for.
RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
By season, this new group is 1-1. It's a young roster, but firmly Schoen's at this point (no excuses to fall back on for what was inherited, despite more work being required). Which all makes this a telling year, IMO.
RE: RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
you know who else is very often incorrect? every NFL team that hires a new coach, drafts a QB in the first round, or signs an expensive free agent. Anyone skeptical of anyone participating in any of those things is going to be right often.
i have plenty of criticisms of how schoen has handled different things but if you dont see that he clearly has a specific plan built on positional value i think you arent looking close enough. if there are points of disagreement with that plan by all means im not saying they are invalid, but to say they dont have a plan is eyes wide shut. if anything i believe it aligns way too much with mainstream orthodoxy fans have become way too religious about.
Schoen and Daboll were more of outside the building hires though
Many criticize Mara and others for asking questions. They read deeply into it as if the question implied what Mara wanted 100%.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
What a lame defense of Mara. Boiling down the problem with him of "liking to play devil's advocate."
If you can't look at the Jones situation and see all his public comments and our embarassing overpay of him as connected you are being willfully ignorant.
It doesn't really matter if he's asking questions or pounding on desks, it is clear that his feelings for players and ideas about "loyalty" are making this team bad.
His family is the common thread in an embarassing decade. Stop making excuses for them.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah, I think it's been clear for some time
Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
It’s not a matter of defending
It’s a matter of not having conclusive evidence as of yet to make a determination one way or the other
This is a big year and should be a especially for the aforementioned players you highlighted above
RE: Schoen and Daboll were more of outside the building hires though
not only outside the building hires, they were considered the top guys in that cycle. brandon brown was the runner up for harbough in LAC for gm.
if the criticism re the giants is they act like frat bros i can only imagine what the comments re dan campbell a couple summers ago when he was on HK. now he's the belle of the ball.
i get why being a nyg fan would turn someone into a skeptic but to me it comes off as naive to how difficult it is to turn a franchise around when it's key leadership needs to be entirely turned over. its enormously hard to find the right people to do that. we know that because 1/3 of the league tries to do it every january and only a small percentage of those teams succeed (and some years none succeed).
I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
Manhattan/Producer/Darwinism is back for his 4th go around
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
I was going to reply and tell Orville "They should stick to popping corn". lol
The court of public opinion has influenced John Mara's decision making before, so I wouldn't discount that as a possibility moving forward.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
The court of public opinion has influenced John Mara's decision making before, so I wouldn't discount that as a possibility moving forward.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
In real world terms, I completely agree. But I think a very likely scenario to play out would be:
- Keep Jones for 2025, at the cost of 1/30M
- Draft a quarterback in the top 70 in the 2025 draft
- Groom rookie and play when ready
- Cut Jones after 2025 season
I think Schoen would get an awful lot of shit doing that after the Hard Knocks edit portrays him as thinking Jones needs to prove it or else. But I just can't imagine the Giants dump Jones short of a disaster of a season. The economics and timing of the contract (12M guaranteed on 3/5, before the draft) make it very attractive to keep Jones as a bridge.
I certainly would not place that outside the realm of possibility.
In that scenario, then, I would hope for a more robust FA QB market that we could put that $30M towards. But, barring another injury to Jones, we would still need to actually be willing to cut the cord on Daniel Jones loyalty and good feelings be damned.
Add another wild card. Manning suffers a serious injury, say a torn something. Come March 5th if he can't pass a physical 23M of that 30M is his already.
For another 7M do they let him recover, and stay on the roster? They certainly kept Shepard around as designated rehabber for a few years.
I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
You just do not have any answers for what I said that is all. You are pretending it is something else. Pretending seems to be a core competency of yours.
And you people are as off about me being those others posters as you are on your takes. I'm glad you crack each other up.
But you are the actual jokes, you just do not know it because enough of you are in the same shared delusion that you are blissfully unaware.
I'm happy to have a civil discussion. If you are taking things said about the Giants personally that isn't on me. Nothing I said lacked civility towards you.
about not being able to respond to my points. IE making false accusations or pretending I'm trying to bait you.
I'm merely pointing out severe flaws in your logic. Or in the case of Bavaro giving him a very detailed answer on the question he gave me and getting no response to that.
Perhaps he'd like to make the case of why JS is smart and a great leader?
Anyway respond to the points, don't respond to the points I don't really care. Just don't act like I have some problem that I don't because you cannot refute my points.
I'm not any 4th version of anyone or trying to conduct myself in any other way than chat about the team.
I have no idea who this Orville dude is. I'm more than happy to discuss views with anyone who comes with well thought out ideas and can avoid accusing people of scapegoating, pushing their same claim down the road when the coach and GM are inevitably fired, called a pretender, childish, called a joke, and delusional, lol. That doesn't exactly instill confidence one's intentions.
I've been consistent in my view. Year one was very positive, with clearly some overachieving. Last year was a mess, but also crippled by injuries, especially early on. Not just the injuries alone, the way thing went down right out the gate, this team was all out of sorts and took a very long time to get out.
Between all that, it's hard to get a clear read on last year. I'm not convinced we didn't see the opposite side of the overachieving from year 1 only in reverse last season. By the end of the year they were playing competitive football. Is that the only way to interpret? Absolutely not. But IMO those who outright dismissing are putting too much into what they know verses what they believe.
Either way, it's a extremely young team. If you say 3 years to get a read on a draft class, we aren't even there with the year 1 class yet. Which is why I broadly see it as one good year, one bad, but ultimately remaining open to outcome with emphasis on what we see in 2024. Grace period is over, now the pressure is on.
I haven't seen anything so dramatic in 3 episodes of Hard Knocks to pull me off that view.
If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
Best Take. Schoen didn't want to pay for him and Barkley knew it. Schoen has been trying to spin this for over a year, and the strain of it is something he's glad to be out from under. If he could have resigned Barkley for 11 mil he would have done it, and then only because he would have had no cover not to. He knew all along what he was gonna get, that's why he never made an offer. Same reason they didn't touch McKenzie on the show with a 10 foot pole.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
RedRightHand, I don't often agree with you, but this time I do...
From the clip I saw, I thought Shoen was covering his ass for Mara and the public. I don't believe he wanted SB back.
and then pointed to a pattern of behavior displayed by fans and the media all guided by the owners designed to foist blame on others.
For saying that jokes were made about me, childish ones. And it wasn’t until you questioned my intentions while sticking your fingers in your ears and saying “na na na” that you were then called childish. So cry me a river with your victim card.
But you also want to play the victim card on the injuries. We were a shit team from the jump last year. Stop with the endless excuses.
That is your basic problem. You tried to act like you were the voice of reason coming in preaching patience. But the only problem with that is that view is quite unreasonable given what we’ve seen from the owners far beyond hard knocks but very much confirmed.
You and everyone are entitled to their views you just don’t get to pass your hopes and dreams off as logic and expect that to fly.
Much like the others who came at me for stupid shit about “who I was” and “my intentions” you do it because you don’t want to face unpleasant truths. I’m just tired of watching this shitty cycle play out again and again and you seem to be cool with that.
You have a right to be cool with it and I have a right to be not cool with that. You don’t need to try to make me out to be a bad person for it. That’s lame
2.) Anyone who believes we’re getting an authentic, transparent look into their decision making with personnel .
Don’t get me wrong, there’s some cool moments to me as a fan, particularly seeing Daboll working with draft prospects on Xs and Os. That said, I’d be hard pressed to believe that the Giants just so happened to agree to let Hard Knocks do something they’ve never done in covering a FO through free agency and the draft, before the offseason they let the “face of the franchise” walk (SB), and nearly traded up in Rd1 to replace their $40M QB, and it’s not a spin job. This wreaks of preemptive damage control.
All speculation on my part of course, but this seems like Schoen’s olive branch to Mara about moving on from “his” guys in Barkley and DJ, and allowing Mara to separate himself from the decisions and try to “save face.” That line from Mara of “I’d have trouble sleeping if he ended up in the division” re:Barkley sticks out.
Also, I certainly don’t think we’re getting real insights on any of Mara, Schoen, or Daboll’s real opinions on current players worth or anything like that. It would be stupid to televise what he thinks, even if it’s true: the window of time in which Saquon will still be a top tier back will not align with the window in time where the Giants will be contenders, so to spend that money on a running back is just bad business. His position requires him to make those judgements, but with the Lombardi’s of the world, he’d get crucified for saying it on camera.
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Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
But some of it has been really cool. The draft stuff was great, the narrowing down the list of FA's to pursue was interesting. Just seeing these guys in their natural surroundings has been great as well. I was drawing a lot of parallels to my business watching this...which reminded me that football is a business too.
It seems the popular viewpoint is to make this a Mara vs Schoen issue. It's concerning that it may show a lack of alignment, but it's also very possible this stuff was played up for the camera.
It does also seem that a lot of the media criticized NYG for taking Barkley at 2. But, a lot of the same media is criticizing NYG for letting Barkley go to Philly?
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In comment 16555493 UberAlias said:
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Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
Quit backtracking. This is in this context of their being called 2nd least talented roster in the league, will have top 5 pick next year, etc. You yourself have repeatedly pointed to Vegas odds for the upcoming season as if it's some superior insight. They may be bad, or they may not. But many on the negative angle continue to push their view with such certainty. With all the spamming that's come from that direction, if that's not how it plays out, the spammers more than deserve to be called on it.
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
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In comment 16555468 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555466 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555463 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
All very fair imo. It's also a product of such few people actually having a proven track record at GM. It's hard. Not many can do it. The hope is Schoen can grow into the job.
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
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In comment 16555501 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555493 UberAlias said:
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Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
Cool. And if they're bad again you'll deserve to be called out for this ridiculous stance you keep pushing...but it isn't important enough to bother remembering.
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
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In comment 16555950 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
💯
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
you know who else is very often incorrect? every NFL team that hires a new coach, drafts a QB in the first round, or signs an expensive free agent. Anyone skeptical of anyone participating in any of those things is going to be right often.
i have plenty of criticisms of how schoen has handled different things but if you dont see that he clearly has a specific plan built on positional value i think you arent looking close enough. if there are points of disagreement with that plan by all means im not saying they are invalid, but to say they dont have a plan is eyes wide shut. if anything i believe it aligns way too much with mainstream orthodoxy fans have become way too religious about.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
What a lame defense of Mara. Boiling down the problem with him of "liking to play devil's advocate."
If you can't look at the Jones situation and see all his public comments and our embarassing overpay of him as connected you are being willfully ignorant.
It doesn't really matter if he's asking questions or pounding on desks, it is clear that his feelings for players and ideas about "loyalty" are making this team bad.
His family is the common thread in an embarassing decade. Stop making excuses for them.
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In comment 16555954 JonC said:
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In comment 16555950 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555942 JonC said:
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Schoen was managing the SB situation in order to let him go. No surprise there. As soon as Berry finally produced figures, Schoen replied "we're out".
D HOS, as another poster mentioned, I don't sense a smart GM, good scouting talent or leadership, or a cohesive longterm plan or approach. It feels like a big bunch of college bros who got really lucky with their career path(s) and who they know, more than are they any good at it. Granted, these are edited snippets being fed to us, obviously a limited field of vision, etc. But, I've said since Schoen arrived their approach is often need-heavy and win-now, and they're constantly in plugging leaks mode. Little shown, outside of Daboll quizzing the QB prospects during interviews, has really raised an eyebrow as a wow they're know what they're doing. My $.02
How can you find to come to those conclusions when we have seen at best 2% of what really goes on behind the scenes ?
I think that’s a bit if a stretch to say the least
Because I'm intelligent and instinctive and often correct? lol. It's not all entirely based on the tv show, obviously, I've posted my opinions on the matter for awhile now. YMMV, but I'm more a skeptic than a fan these days, which kinda sucks. In some respects, I envy the fans here but they're very, very often incorrect on matters such as challenging the leadership and results.
I disagree as I don’t think that one can draw any conclusions one way or the other
Only time will tell and we all hope for the best
What I've read of you here is mostly fan mode or defending the regime, no offense. To each their own. The product on the field is the biggest tell, and there's little yet to suggest the arrow's pointing up. The tv show doesn't inspire either, tho I wouldn't categorize it as embarrassing themselves. Just a ton of green in the building.
This is a huge year : the Jones situation, young bucks eg Thibs and Thomas and more need to play to pedigree, Burns is a significant gamble on potential, there's a long list of things that need to go in NYG's favor this season.
It’s not a matter of defending
It’s a matter of not having conclusive evidence as of yet to make a determination one way or the other
This is a big year and should be a especially for the aforementioned players you highlighted above
not only outside the building hires, they were considered the top guys in that cycle. brandon brown was the runner up for harbough in LAC for gm.
if the criticism re the giants is they act like frat bros i can only imagine what the comments re dan campbell a couple summers ago when he was on HK. now he's the belle of the ball.
i get why being a nyg fan would turn someone into a skeptic but to me it comes off as naive to how difficult it is to turn a franchise around when it's key leadership needs to be entirely turned over. its enormously hard to find the right people to do that. we know that because 1/3 of the league tries to do it every january and only a small percentage of those teams succeed (and some years none succeed).
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
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I think there's certainly enough information to go by to formulate an opinion. It's the bold certainty in light of incomplete data where people need to be more realistic about that the actually know verses believe. The two biggest mistakes I see are putting the last 10 all on the current group (IMO this current group is much better than DG in certain ways where DG was never going to succeed) and two is failing to account for the youth on the roster. With his first draft class reaching year 3, I again point to this year as important. Neal is the glaring draft pick failure, but as such a consensus player I'm not so inclined to crucify him on one pick, especially if we do so improvement with added health.
You are ignoring how thoroughly embarassing last season was. Our $40 QB was 1-5 and that win required a big comeback against a team picking ahead of us at 6.
He then got outplayed by BOTH of his backups.
The other teams we beat were either other teams ahead of us in the draft order or a team with nothing to play for. Other than 1 win. We go to the playoffs one year and follow it with 1 quality win.
We don't trade our most tradable asset on this lost season then see him go to a division rival.
Yeah sure, they could turn it around. But with who at QB? This same dud taking up way too much of the cap that is injured regularly. The worse backup QB than we had last year?
This last year has been a huge embarassment and plenty of people are rightfully calling out the organization for it.
I'm sure you'll be saying incomplete, incomplete, then scapegoating the next coach, GM and then we can repeat this fun cycle again!
Manhattan/Producer/Darwinism is back for his 4th go around
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
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I could actually acknowledge some of what you say and discuss it further in a civil way, but it's clear that's not your intention here, so I think I'll pass on that. If that's how you feel, I don't have issue with it. It's going to play out one way or the other, no?
it will, but by then his handle will be "pop secret".
I was going to reply and tell Orville "They should stick to popping corn". lol
If people are worried about what their Eagle-fan friends say, don't. If you care what idiots behind a keyboard say, I'm sorry.
Management needs to do better. Seems like they're starting to do some positive things. Time will tell.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
I think one unforced error of Hard Knocks will be if Jones has a perfectly mediocre season like 2022, and the fans and media revolt.
How will Schoen handle keeping Jones on the roster after the tepid vote of confidence the story line on the program has shown?
Seems like the best case scenario for the offense this upcoming season would be something similar to 2022 - but with much less featured QB runs and more nifty short passing featuring the improved WR corp.
I think it would be much easier to move on if the success of the offense can be pinned less on "Daniel Jones - dual threat QB" and more on the Daboll/Kafka crafty offensive designs.
In real world terms, I completely agree. But I think a very likely scenario to play out would be:
- Keep Jones for 2025, at the cost of 1/30M
- Draft a quarterback in the top 70 in the 2025 draft
- Groom rookie and play when ready
- Cut Jones after 2025 season
I think Schoen would get an awful lot of shit doing that after the Hard Knocks edit portrays him as thinking Jones needs to prove it or else. But I just can't imagine the Giants dump Jones short of a disaster of a season. The economics and timing of the contract (12M guaranteed on 3/5, before the draft) make it very attractive to keep Jones as a bridge.
So...basically a coin flip? Hah.
For another 7M do they let him recover, and stay on the roster? They certainly kept Shepard around as designated rehabber for a few years.
You just do not have any answers for what I said that is all. You are pretending it is something else. Pretending seems to be a core competency of yours.
And you people are as off about me being those others posters as you are on your takes. I'm glad you crack each other up.
But you are the actual jokes, you just do not know it because enough of you are in the same shared delusion that you are blissfully unaware.
I'm happy to have a civil discussion. If you are taking things said about the Giants personally that isn't on me. Nothing I said lacked civility towards you.
It’s Manhattan/Producer/Darwinism
4th go around😁😁😁
I'm merely pointing out severe flaws in your logic. Or in the case of Bavaro giving him a very detailed answer on the question he gave me and getting no response to that.
Perhaps he'd like to make the case of why JS is smart and a great leader?
Anyway respond to the points, don't respond to the points I don't really care. Just don't act like I have some problem that I don't because you cannot refute my points.
I'm not any 4th version of anyone or trying to conduct myself in any other way than chat about the team.
I've been consistent in my view. Year one was very positive, with clearly some overachieving. Last year was a mess, but also crippled by injuries, especially early on. Not just the injuries alone, the way thing went down right out the gate, this team was all out of sorts and took a very long time to get out.
Between all that, it's hard to get a clear read on last year. I'm not convinced we didn't see the opposite side of the overachieving from year 1 only in reverse last season. By the end of the year they were playing competitive football. Is that the only way to interpret? Absolutely not. But IMO those who outright dismissing are putting too much into what they know verses what they believe.
Either way, it's a extremely young team. If you say 3 years to get a read on a draft class, we aren't even there with the year 1 class yet. Which is why I broadly see it as one good year, one bad, but ultimately remaining open to outcome with emphasis on what we see in 2024. Grace period is over, now the pressure is on.
I haven't seen anything so dramatic in 3 episodes of Hard Knocks to pull me off that view.
Quote:
If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
Best Take. Schoen didn't want to pay for him and Barkley knew it. Schoen has been trying to spin this for over a year, and the strain of it is something he's glad to be out from under. If he could have resigned Barkley for 11 mil he would have done it, and then only because he would have had no cover not to. He knew all along what he was gonna get, that's why he never made an offer. Same reason they didn't touch McKenzie on the show with a 10 foot pole.
The Kibuki dance with Barkley was already as much as he could manage.
RedRightHand, I don't often agree with you, but this time I do...
From the clip I saw, I thought Shoen was covering his ass for Mara and the public. I don't believe he wanted SB back.
For saying that jokes were made about me, childish ones. And it wasn’t until you questioned my intentions while sticking your fingers in your ears and saying “na na na” that you were then called childish. So cry me a river with your victim card.
But you also want to play the victim card on the injuries. We were a shit team from the jump last year. Stop with the endless excuses.
That is your basic problem. You tried to act like you were the voice of reason coming in preaching patience. But the only problem with that is that view is quite unreasonable given what we’ve seen from the owners far beyond hard knocks but very much confirmed.
You and everyone are entitled to their views you just don’t get to pass your hopes and dreams off as logic and expect that to fly.
Much like the others who came at me for stupid shit about “who I was” and “my intentions” you do it because you don’t want to face unpleasant truths. I’m just tired of watching this shitty cycle play out again and again and you seem to be cool with that.
You have a right to be cool with it and I have a right to be not cool with that. You don’t need to try to make me out to be a bad person for it. That’s lame
2.) Anyone who believes we’re getting an authentic, transparent look into their decision making with personnel .
Don’t get me wrong, there’s some cool moments to me as a fan, particularly seeing Daboll working with draft prospects on Xs and Os. That said, I’d be hard pressed to believe that the Giants just so happened to agree to let Hard Knocks do something they’ve never done in covering a FO through free agency and the draft, before the offseason they let the “face of the franchise” walk (SB), and nearly traded up in Rd1 to replace their $40M QB, and it’s not a spin job. This wreaks of preemptive damage control.
All speculation on my part of course, but this seems like Schoen’s olive branch to Mara about moving on from “his” guys in Barkley and DJ, and allowing Mara to separate himself from the decisions and try to “save face.” That line from Mara of “I’d have trouble sleeping if he ended up in the division” re:Barkley sticks out.
Also, I certainly don’t think we’re getting real insights on any of Mara, Schoen, or Daboll’s real opinions on current players worth or anything like that. It would be stupid to televise what he thinks, even if it’s true: the window of time in which Saquon will still be a top tier back will not align with the window in time where the Giants will be contenders, so to spend that money on a running back is just bad business. His position requires him to make those judgements, but with the Lombardi’s of the world, he’d get crucified for saying it on camera.