you are often the voice of reason around here, but in this case, your bias is working against you.
Even with the edits, it's clear that Schoen wasn't keen at all in bringing back Barkley. The only possible contrary position is they still were talking to him on the day he signed with Philly, but Schoen said, "we're out."
Everything up to that point was Schoen saying he was a luxury the team could not afford.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Exactly…I haven’t understood why many don’t see that. The teams are in different places, they’re not apples to apples.
The Eagles have a lot of talent (although lost some on their OL and DL), and paying $13 million for Saquon in the hopes he pushes them over the top makes some sense
The Giants have so many needs everywhere that paying $13 million to a RB, with whom the offense has been horseshit the last few years anyway would have been foolish
Because it's their nature to find things to complain about when they really have no idea, like the rest of us, of what's going on.
Did Schoen offer Barkley a contract after 2022? According to Schoen himself, he did.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
Of course they did. But a year makes a heck of a difference. Barkley is a year old, coming off another injury-plagued season, on a team that took a major step backwards.
Different scenario now.
Again, this is coming from a guy who said trade him in October 2022. I'm no apologist for anyone here. But the situation changed.
The original sin was drafting him. That was followed by Gettleman not trading him. Then Schoen not trading him. But the contract situations in March 2023 and March 2024 were different. Barkley was coming off his second-best season as a NYG.
product they've been putting on the field the past decade has been them embarrassing themselves. Nothing in the show so far has added to that. I would criticize Mara if he forced the team to match Barkley's offer out of emotion for the player, but he didn't, so I'm not going to criticize him for being human and voicing his opinion whether right or wrong. He hired Schoen to make those decisions for him and it's up to Schoen to make the right decisions. Setting a hard limit for Barkley's numbers was the right decision. I wouldn't have paid him at the number they were willing to because Barkley is too much of a luxury for the Giant's roster right now. Some people have a good hard admitting that despite what you think of him and his time on the Giants, Barkley is a good NFL player despite losing some of his fastball from injuries. I expect him to have a very good year in Philly barring injuries, which is a real risk for him there.
product they've been putting on the field the past decade has been them embarrassing themselves. Nothing in the show so far has added to that. I would criticize Mara if he forced the team to match Barkley's offer out of emotion for the player, but he didn't, so I'm not going to criticize him for being human and voicing his opinion whether right or wrong. He hired Schoen to make those decisions for him and it's up to Schoen to make the right decisions. Setting a hard limit for Barkley's numbers was the right decision. I wouldn't have paid him at the number they were willing to because Barkley is too much of a luxury for the Giant's roster right now. Some people have a good hard admitting that despite what you think of him and his time on the Giants, Barkley is a good NFL player despite losing some of his fastball from injuries. I expect him to have a very good year in Philly barring injuries, which is a real risk for him there.
That's the weird thing. Mara didn't get his way. That's good.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
I just caught up on all 3 episodes last night very cool look into how things are done. Some of these conversations are painfully awkward but I dont really see anything as overtly embarassing for the giants. the fact is they are an easy target, right now this is the main story in the NFL and drama brings attention that is their goal.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
If the reporting from last year is correct, Schoen made a respectable offer that was probably dead on arrival because of the guarantees.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
we hear often from people in and around the league how the giants generally have a well run organization (onfield results aside purely in terms or organization structure and support) id venture a guess there are more than a handlful of other teams who would be coming off much worse in comparison.. i.e. the other side of the burns trade.
The Giants obviously felt that they had a choice: they could either sign SB and one low budget OL or they could get two quality OL and a Tier Two RB.
Seeing as how they had run their offense with something akin to the first option - and with spectacularly shitty results - they decided to go in a different direction in 2024. Can't blame them.
Hard Knocks isn't showing the Giants FA being stupid or incompetent or brilliant: it's showing them going through the process of evaluating where they are, where they want to be, and how a team makes decisions about making the magic happen.
I still believe they elected to permit HBO into their offices in the first place was because they knew back in November that SB wasn't coming back and they wanted to document the steps that led to his departure. What they didn't expect was for him to walk to Philadelphia for only a few dollars more than they were ready to offer.
Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
I just caught up on all 3 episodes last night very cool look into how things are done. Some of these conversations are painfully awkward but I dont really see anything as overtly embarassing for the giants. the fact is they are an easy target, right now this is the main story in the NFL and drama brings attention that is their goal.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
+1 Looks a lot like the corporate world I've lived in since spring of 1986. Even in the companies with an effective culture.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: They're not doing themselves any favors
If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
They tried to move up in the draft to take the QB you continue to scream about. Can you at least acknowledge this fact even if you think they should have pivoted off the missed trade up and drafted ANY other QB in round 1? You seem to gloss over the facts and push your same take time and time again. Virtually every source under the sun has stated that the Giants tried to trade up to 3 for the QB.
Or, insist on saying they have their QB and must now pay for it with their lives if they don't go 11-6 while throwing for the end all be all 30 TDs. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
They tried to move up but couldn't. Then not only did they not take a QB at 6 they didn't take a QB at all anywhere. Their one addition was Drew Lock.
Daboll and Schoen are going to be judged on Jones success or failure this season, barring a surprise turn of events like benching him after 2 games.
Joe is getting a lot of input from people that, appear, to not know shit about football.
I think Chris Rossetti sounds like he could be a random guy on BBI. Not impressed with him or his analysis at all. Haven’t been impressed, one bit, by Tim McDonnell. He’s brought absolutely zero to the show.
Been impressed with Scheon, Brandon Brown, Dabs and scout Hannah Burnett.
RE: RE: I dont get it and never will with some of you
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
I'm not convinced of that. My gut tells me Schoen was very comfortable letting Team Barkley test the market. And he thought, because I think it was discussed at a meeting in Schoen's office, that some teams were going to have major interest in SB and conveniently knock NYG out of the bidding.
In fact, I sensed relief in Schoen and he just needed to make sure Mara didn't have cardiac arrest when the Eagles were the confirmed landing spot.
RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
I think the Schoen stuff with Barkley was performative too
I don't get the impression that he was actually interested outside of appeasing his boss. He wrote Barkley's "not really his number" on the markerboard and that's it. They staged it so it looked like they wanted him back and that it was Barkley who threw away the Ring of Honor for an extra million bucks. The Giants are controlling this production.
I disagree with you on Barkley. I think bw has it right. It was more of an example of managing Mara which Schoen will need to do if he has any success. He never wanted Barkley after this past season.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
My read of the situation is that if Schoen has had his way Barkley would be entering the second year of a lucrative contract (which was offered after 2022) with the Giants in 2024. That didn't materialize and they franchised him.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
JFC - so you don't interpret literally letting someone walk in FA as...letting someone walk in FA? They had a number in mind and stuck to it, not even attempting to meet the offer he received. That's letting someone walk. You can certainly make the argument that they shouldn't have even entertained resigning him, but they let him walk. It's exactly what they did.
It's as if you come up with your own definitions for things so you can contort situations in ways that mean you're never wrong. In this case, it appears you only count letting Barkley walk if they, what? Put all Barkley's stuff in a garbage bag in the parking lot before physically kicking him out of the building?
That's the weird thing. Mara didn't get his way. That's good.
I think mainly because it was painfully obvious he was wrong about franchising him last year. Mara was OK with letting him walk this year only because of how things turned out, but he wanted it portrayed so that it looked like "they tried." If there was some hidden camera Hard Knocks of last offseason, I think we'd see a very different picture. Mara's quotes say as much.
Are the Giants embarrassing themselves on Hard Knocks?
He was given a 3 yr 37.5 mil dollar deal with 26 million gtd
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Looks to me like Schoen was being realistic about Barkley. I even think Barkley wouldn't have stayed had the Giants matched. Past negotiations seem to have hurt the relationship, plus Barkley has a lot of connections with Pennsylvania beyond playing at Penn State.
Schoen tried, but it seems like he pretty much knew Barkley wasn't going to be staying.
The writer ignores the Burns deal. Giants thought it would take a first rounder, maybe two. The Giants made a great deal based on their value for the player.
Most of the bashing by the writer is due to the Jones deal. That didn't happen during the Hard Knocks.
RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
None of this is actually accurate.
Many posters on here, myself included, have said that John Mara attempts to influence decisions, that he makes his opinion known, both privately and through the press, and that he expresses his preferences in ways that can be challenging for a subordinate to navigate.
All of that has been proven true.
No one, to my knowledge, has suggested that Mara issues strict mandates, although I think there's a reasonable case to be made that he may have historically favored management candidates who were already aligned with his POV and therefore his influence was more direct (this would apply to Gettleman in particular, including the farce of the search process to identify the new GM in 2017).
Nice strawman, but you're punching at air. You won an argument that no one was having.
He was given a 3 yr 37.5 mil dollar deal with 26 million gtd
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Pretty damn good post. I agree with a lot of this, especially the Jones observation. That situation was horribly misplayed. That decision can be further compounded if:
1) Jones throws in another clunker of a season and/or...
2) One of the three QBs we passed on is the real deal
Popular essentially means- what the fans care about
He is the owner thats his responsibility
And its what fans should want as well
It should’nt override football decisions and it didnt
But there is times it should - ask any Mets fan who saw Tom Seaver traded
Obviously this isnt the same situation but the owner needs to be the one asking these questions and testing the GM to decide what the situation calls for
It's pretty clear, in the modern NFL, paying a running back a big second contract is often proved to be a mistake. Both from a player wear and tear perspective, but also the fact that the rules offer advantages to passing teams.
People will point to CMC, but for every CMC, there are multiple Zeke Elliots.
I'd even say the Eagles would've been smarter to use the Barkley funds elsewhere on the roster - anyone they put behind the Oline seems to find success, and at a bargain price.
So let me get this straight. In this little IQ test scenario you've set up. You and the Giants are high IQ and the Eagles are low IQ?
It seems pretty low IQ to think you and a basement dwelling team are smarter than the Eagles.
I personally think it was the right move for both teams. And there are other teams it would have made sense for IE the Texans where there were rumblings they offered more. They are looking pretty smart these days as well...
Maybe a good idea for you is aknowleding there is more nuance to these things and giving people IQ awards for agreeing with you is a dumb practice.
I disagree with you on Barkley. I think bw has it right. It was more of an example of managing Mara which Schoen will need to do if he has any success. He never wanted Barkley after this past season.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
Maybe it was Mara that took ten years off his life the year before when they tagged SB and tried to work out a deal….
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
So you are using a heavily edited material to judge if JS has average intelligence and leadership abilities?
Or anyone else desperately stabbing at proving their competence.
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
Is that the Giants were basically stuck with Jones. They liked the top 3 QBs and if they had the opportunity to get one they probably would have. The reality is that it wasn’t available and I’m sure they weren’t going to be on camera saying Jones isn’t their guy.
They said nice things about Barkley but I never got the sense Schoen thought he was a priority. I think Schoen didn’t think Barkley was going to get a big payday and would be able to sign him for less than he previously offered. Then when Barkley did get the big offer Schoen didn’t think he was worth it. I think Schoen was thinking Barkley was going to get an offer in the $10 mil per and probably would have seriously considered a match.
I do think the Giants underestimated the market for all players and didn’t adjust enough for the cap increase so they did seem a little unprepared for that but seemed to pivot well.
Now that the off-season has concluded I am very happy with the results. I didn’t want a QB this year and I think the 3 WRs were the top 3 players in the draft with Harrison being 1A and Nabers being 1B. I saw Nabers as the better player but Harrison as the sure thing.
In my opinion Barkley may have 1 good season but definitely not 3 and even if he has 3 great seasons the contract was not worth the risk based on the info we have today.
Or anyone else desperately stabbing at proving their competence.
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
Nice spin on the coordinators and the sandwich in the car
Wink was treading in place - waiting for an HC spot, thought he was equal to or better than HC. and, look at the results he produced. addition by subtraction.
RE: Mara and his comments. He sounds like an owner who gets too emotionally attached to his players. His Dad (RIP) was the same way. He weighs in and let's the GM make the decisions. He owns the team he has a right to weigh in. Thank God he's giving JS a free hand.
Is a goober. Other than the 2 or 3 sycophants who he surrounds himself with (brown, rosetti and the white haired guy) he gets abused by everyone else in the league and also by those who work for him.
If you watch this and think that Daboll has anything other than a tolerance for working with JS then you aren't paying attention.
Many criticize Mara and others for asking questions. They read deeply into it as if the question implied what Mara wanted 100%.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
Qould the Giants ever allow HBO to air the FO being harshly critical
Can you imagine them saying that Barkley dances too much, slow to hit the hole, has suspect vision. is a poor pass blocker and allowing that to be aired. No player would ever want to come to the team and know they might get publicly trashed by the FO.
The same goes for the QB situation. Do you think the Giants can actually allow it to be aired that they do not believe in DJ when they know they have to roll with him this year.
Common sense tells you that a lot of this is performative. A massively watered down version of things. Perhaps some real shots of real conversation like the at the combine.
I would watch with a few large grains of salt, and assume that much of what you are seeing is staged. I don't think you can pass any judgements based on seeing this. Furthermore, you judge people by the results. In the end, they let Barkley go which was the right decision for the NY Giants. That is a good result. We will have to wait and see if these decisions were correct: Burns, Runyon/Eluemunor and the rest of OL signees, Nabers, Nubin (letting McKinney walk), etc. How a show like HK portrays getting to these decisions is interesting to fans but in the end doesn't mean much. If Shoen is getting the decisions right, then he will be praised, wrong and he better cover his ass on the way out.
RE: RE: There's a lot of retreating and rationalaztion going on
Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
Quit backtracking. This is in this context of their being called 2nd least talented roster in the league, will have top 5 pick next year, etc. You yourself have repeatedly pointed to Vegas odds for the upcoming season as if it's some superior insight. They may be bad, or they may not. But many on the negative angle continue to push their view with such certainty. With all the spamming that's come from that direction, if that's not how it plays out, the spammers more than deserve to be called on it.
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
Even with the edits, it's clear that Schoen wasn't keen at all in bringing back Barkley. The only possible contrary position is they still were talking to him on the day he signed with Philly, but Schoen said, "we're out."
Everything up to that point was Schoen saying he was a luxury the team could not afford.
And again, Mara didn't get his way.
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
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In comment 16555254 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
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Mara hasn’t done himself any favors.
Depends.
As I've said a number of times, I expect Barkley to put up big numbers behind the OL in Philly and with those surrounding weapons (let's be honest, the Eagles are loaded at the skill positions... teams can't focus on Barkley).
However, two things can be correct... that Barkley looks great on the Eagles and the Giants made the right move not paying him. There are those who won't agree with that.
Exactly…I haven’t understood why many don’t see that. The teams are in different places, they’re not apples to apples.
The Eagles have a lot of talent (although lost some on their OL and DL), and paying $13 million for Saquon in the hopes he pushes them over the top makes some sense
The Giants have so many needs everywhere that paying $13 million to a RB, with whom the offense has been horseshit the last few years anyway would have been foolish
Because it's their nature to find things to complain about when they really have no idea, like the rest of us, of what's going on.
"I tried to give him a lot of money last year and he didn't take it."
Of course they did. But a year makes a heck of a difference. Barkley is a year old, coming off another injury-plagued season, on a team that took a major step backwards.
Different scenario now.
Again, this is coming from a guy who said trade him in October 2022. I'm no apologist for anyone here. But the situation changed.
The original sin was drafting him. That was followed by Gettleman not trading him. Then Schoen not trading him. But the contract situations in March 2023 and March 2024 were different. Barkley was coming off his second-best season as a NYG.
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In comment 16555463 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
That's the weird thing. Mara didn't get his way. That's good.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
But they literally "let him walk in FA". *grin*
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
By definition, they let him leave in free agency.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
I'm as surprised as anyone, but Team Barkley was correct. The market for guaranteed cash dollars paid to Barkley for the 2023, 2024, and 2025 seasons was 36M.
Set aside the money he received in 2023. I don't think being a year older, another ankle injury, and a worse performance made Barkley more valuable. Even cap inflation doesn't tell the entire story.
The Eagles have version 2024-2026 more money than the Giants offered version 2023-2025.
No way in retrospect was he taking Schoen's best and final.
The Giants obviously felt that they had a choice: they could either sign SB and one low budget OL or they could get two quality OL and a Tier Two RB.
Seeing as how they had run their offense with something akin to the first option - and with spectacularly shitty results - they decided to go in a different direction in 2024. Can't blame them.
Hard Knocks isn't showing the Giants FA being stupid or incompetent or brilliant: it's showing them going through the process of evaluating where they are, where they want to be, and how a team makes decisions about making the magic happen.
I still believe they elected to permit HBO into their offices in the first place was because they knew back in November that SB wasn't coming back and they wanted to document the steps that led to his departure. What they didn't expect was for him to walk to Philadelphia for only a few dollars more than they were ready to offer.
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In comment 16555466 Mbavaro said:
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In comment 16555463 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16555460 djm said:
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Ill say it again. The second NYG gave Barkley the FT this relationship was all but over.
Schoen never wanted to sign this guy long term. ACTIONS. Not words. IF he wanted him long term he signs him long term. Gimme a break people.
He tried to sign him long term. Barkley turned him down.
Wrong again
An offer wasn’t made to him for Barkley to refuse
Just more BS
Guess he wasn’t a “big ticket item”
So they didn't offer Barkley a contract after 2022?
Ah…so now you are moving the bar from 2022 to 2023
Nice spin
They did not offer him a contract this off season so there was nothing to turn down
Try as you might….you’re making a fool of yourself
When Schoen said to Ed Berry earlier this offseason (as shown on Hard Knocks), "If I offer $12.5M APY with $25M guaranteed, is he a Giant?" that's not an offer?
Once Berry hesitated there, it was already over. Schoen asked for the chance to match, and then asked again if matching was good enough to sign him. If you want to claim that Schoen would have reneged in that scenario if Berry had said yes, I guess that's your prerogative, but I think you're splitting hairs on the "there was never an offer" point.
The only thing I took away from this was Mara's presence, pretty uninspiring to say the least. I think people are really overblowing his "pressure" to keep saquon, he said a couple backhanded comments but didnt really push at all imo and its completely naive to think he wouldnt have a say in a move like that.
+1 Looks a lot like the corporate world I've lived in since spring of 1986. Even in the companies with an effective culture.
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In comment 16555317 barens said:
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If they didn't have their QB, then why didn't they draft McCarthy or Penix? That disputes your theory.
It actually confirms my theory. I think they think they have their QB.
They tried to move up in the draft to take the QB you continue to scream about. Can you at least acknowledge this fact even if you think they should have pivoted off the missed trade up and drafted ANY other QB in round 1? You seem to gloss over the facts and push your same take time and time again. Virtually every source under the sun has stated that the Giants tried to trade up to 3 for the QB.
Or, insist on saying they have their QB and must now pay for it with their lives if they don't go 11-6 while throwing for the end all be all 30 TDs. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
They tried to move up but couldn't. Then not only did they not take a QB at 6 they didn't take a QB at all anywhere. Their one addition was Drew Lock.
Daboll and Schoen are going to be judged on Jones success or failure this season, barring a surprise turn of events like benching him after 2 games.
The maneuvering of cap dollars is more dynamic. The Giants followed up the first wave of UFA with trading and paying Burns a 140M.
They had myriad ways to move cap dollars around to accommodate the grocery list they ended with and still retain Barkley.
Whether that represented good value and whether they were comfortable with the consequences of those moves is the real story.
Joe is getting a lot of input from people that, appear, to not know shit about football.
I think Chris Rossetti sounds like he could be a random guy on BBI. Not impressed with him or his analysis at all. Haven’t been impressed, one bit, by Tim McDonnell. He’s brought absolutely zero to the show.
Been impressed with Scheon, Brandon Brown, Dabs and scout Hannah Burnett.
They got outbid for Barkley. They didn't "let him walk". They wanted him back, and the talk surrounding him was that of a much better player than he actually is.
I'm not convinced of that. My gut tells me Schoen was very comfortable letting Team Barkley test the market. And he thought, because I think it was discussed at a meeting in Schoen's office, that some teams were going to have major interest in SB and conveniently knock NYG out of the bidding.
In fact, I sensed relief in Schoen and he just needed to make sure Mara didn't have cardiac arrest when the Eagles were the confirmed landing spot.
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
Then after 2023 they had a number at which they would sign him and they weren't going to go over that number. When the Eagles offered more, they said bye-bye.
I don't interpret that as "letting him walk in FA". I think if the best market offer for Barkley was $11M/year, Barkley would be back with the Giants making $12M/year for the next three years pursuing that "Ring of Honor" bullshit Schoen was selling.
JFC - so you don't interpret literally letting someone walk in FA as...letting someone walk in FA? They had a number in mind and stuck to it, not even attempting to meet the offer he received. That's letting someone walk. You can certainly make the argument that they shouldn't have even entertained resigning him, but they let him walk. It's exactly what they did.
It's as if you come up with your own definitions for things so you can contort situations in ways that mean you're never wrong. In this case, it appears you only count letting Barkley walk if they, what? Put all Barkley's stuff in a garbage bag in the parking lot before physically kicking him out of the building?
I think mainly because it was painfully obvious he was wrong about franchising him last year. Mara was OK with letting him walk this year only because of how things turned out, but he wanted it portrayed so that it looked like "they tried." If there was some hidden camera Hard Knocks of last offseason, I think we'd see a very different picture. Mara's quotes say as much.
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Schoen tried, but it seems like he pretty much knew Barkley wasn't going to be staying.
The writer ignores the Burns deal. Giants thought it would take a first rounder, maybe two. The Giants made a great deal based on their value for the player.
Most of the bashing by the writer is due to the Jones deal. That didn't happen during the Hard Knocks.
None of this is actually accurate.
Many posters on here, myself included, have said that John Mara attempts to influence decisions, that he makes his opinion known, both privately and through the press, and that he expresses his preferences in ways that can be challenging for a subordinate to navigate.
All of that has been proven true.
No one, to my knowledge, has suggested that Mara issues strict mandates, although I think there's a reasonable case to be made that he may have historically favored management candidates who were already aligned with his POV and therefore his influence was more direct (this would apply to Gettleman in particular, including the farce of the search process to identify the new GM in 2017).
Nice strawman, but you're punching at air. You won an argument that no one was having.
This deal is coming off an additional season of wear and tear, a worse season and from a perennial Super Bowl contender
The NY Giants offered Barkley a worse deal than this a year ago and decided to tag him and sign Jones to 4/160 instead of tagging him and signing Barkley to 3/36 back then
In fact we even reportedly pulled the offer we made earlier in the season to him when he was leading the NFL in rushing after 9 weeks and the team was 7-2
Schoen even says on the show to allow Barkley to test the market
They never allowed Jones to test the market when they had a 1/29 tag available for him that would of cost a team 2 first rounders to sign him to. The Giants had match rights anyway . No team ever would have considered such a ridiculous move but we didnt
Thats why the Giants dont look good over Barkley-Jones
The market showed how out of touch we were. Barkley was offered a better deal more than a year and a half later by a much better team and after he played worse.
If Jones had been tagged last season and he now hit FA, whats his market value? 1 yr 10 mil ?
Pretty damn good post. I agree with a lot of this, especially the Jones observation. That situation was horribly misplayed. That decision can be further compounded if:
1) Jones throws in another clunker of a season and/or...
2) One of the three QBs we passed on is the real deal
Popular essentially means- what the fans care about
He is the owner thats his responsibility
Popular essentially means- what the fans care about
He is the owner thats his responsibility
And its what fans should want as well
It should’nt override football decisions and it didnt
But there is times it should - ask any Mets fan who saw Tom Seaver traded
Obviously this isnt the same situation but the owner needs to be the one asking these questions and testing the GM to decide what the situation calls for
They just signed a pass rusher for $28 million/year. Get him out there. We have an All-Pro Lineman whose nickname is "Sexy". Can you work that?...
School/Daboll are trying to build a team that can win football games. That's how you measure success for a GM/HC.
It's pretty clear, in the modern NFL, paying a running back a big second contract is often proved to be a mistake. Both from a player wear and tear perspective, but also the fact that the rules offer advantages to passing teams.
People will point to CMC, but for every CMC, there are multiple Zeke Elliots.
I'd even say the Eagles would've been smarter to use the Barkley funds elsewhere on the roster - anyone they put behind the Oline seems to find success, and at a bargain price.
So let me get this straight. In this little IQ test scenario you've set up. You and the Giants are high IQ and the Eagles are low IQ?
It seems pretty low IQ to think you and a basement dwelling team are smarter than the Eagles.
I personally think it was the right move for both teams. And there are other teams it would have made sense for IE the Texans where there were rumblings they offered more. They are looking pretty smart these days as well...
Maybe a good idea for you is aknowleding there is more nuance to these things and giving people IQ awards for agreeing with you is a dumb practice.
He would have signed him a year earlier at a number he was comfortable with, but he clearly draws a line in the sand with age and RB value.
Lastly, an organization which is successful DID pay Barkley. And the Texans were right there too among other teams as well.
I have no issue with how Schoen handled Barkley this offseason. He was managing Mara.
Maybe it was Mara that took ten years off his life the year before when they tagged SB and tried to work out a deal….
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
They've just elminated any plausable deniability that they are running an intelligent, well functioning organization.
There is a GM of average intelligence and leadership abilities needing to placate/fend off/pick his battles against people making decisions based on their feelings. And/or some imagined version of what fans want that I'd bet coincidentally frequently align with those feelings!
This is cemented by the fact that i'd bet they thought they would come out looking good. Their self awareness and self scouting are abysmal.
I'm reminded about a quote from the office where someone asks when they get work done with all the distractions from Michael Scott and it is something like "We find little times here and there"
That's what it feels like to watch hard knocks. Like the job of the GM is to coax spoiled billionairs with over inflated egos away from making bad, emotional decisions.
It's pretty apparent why we are one of the worst teams the last decade. And that is the only embaressment what we put on the field. This is just watching an episode of "How it's made" and having it fill in the blanks of the exact mechanisms at play. "Oh I didn't know they made the roster like that, I can see how they are so bad."
So you are using a heavily edited material to judge if JS has average intelligence and leadership abilities?
Seriously?
Amazing the narratives that people create
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
They said nice things about Barkley but I never got the sense Schoen thought he was a priority. I think Schoen didn’t think Barkley was going to get a big payday and would be able to sign him for less than he previously offered. Then when Barkley did get the big offer Schoen didn’t think he was worth it. I think Schoen was thinking Barkley was going to get an offer in the $10 mil per and probably would have seriously considered a match.
I do think the Giants underestimated the market for all players and didn’t adjust enough for the cap increase so they did seem a little unprepared for that but seemed to pivot well.
Now that the off-season has concluded I am very happy with the results. I didn’t want a QB this year and I think the 3 WRs were the top 3 players in the draft with Harrison being 1A and Nabers being 1B. I saw Nabers as the better player but Harrison as the sure thing.
In my opinion Barkley may have 1 good season but definitely not 3 and even if he has 3 great seasons the contract was not worth the risk based on the info we have today.
JS expresses that they need a backup plan for Jones and for another consecutive year of idiocy they don’t draft a backup plan.
JS expresses that they can’t afford Barkley and Jones. Which overpaying Jones was an unforced error exacerbating that. He adds later that if you are patient you can get a bargain on an RB.
They aren’t patient, they end up paying Singletary double what he made last year on a longer contract for absolutely no reason given the year Singletary had. He had less TDs and a lower YPC than the year before on a similar number of yards. Only a desperate person would do that, ignoring his own good advice to boot. And that desperate stab has Singletary and Barkley at pretty much the same cap numbers the next two years.
Not being able to execute your own ideas as the decision maker doesn’t display good intelligence or leadership.
Him eating in the car and talking about his career path makes him sound like some middle manager trying to impress his mother in law. But that isn’t important just kind of more of a joke.
What is important is that his work has been unimpressive on the field, not reflecting good intelligence.
He almost lost 2 coordinators in one offseason and not because they were promoted. The infighting among the people that work for him does not reflect good leadership.
Nice spin on the coordinators and the sandwich in the car
Go back to making popcorn
RE: Mara and his comments. He sounds like an owner who gets too emotionally attached to his players. His Dad (RIP) was the same way. He weighs in and let's the GM make the decisions. He owns the team he has a right to weigh in. Thank God he's giving JS a free hand.
If you watch this and think that Daboll has anything other than a tolerance for working with JS then you aren't paying attention.
But read any decision making literature since the 50s and it all says you want people to play devils advocate and ask questions. It’s a proven way to avoid groupthink. “Without SB what is our identity on offense?” is just that - a questIon. It’s not even an especially hard one hopefully. Because knowing they could lose SB they should have an answer, or at least ideas based on the potential draft. If I’m the owner of a company I’m sure as hell asking my GM questions, about the strategy and the sales.
It’s be one thing if they let that question change the course of what happened. They didn’t. Schoen had a price for a talented, oft injured RB approaching his likely drop off point. Mara didn’t push him past it and we let him walk. Seems to me they did the job of checking on the thinking and asking questions, but letting JS make the call.
The bottom line is if you think that price was too high for us for SB, letting him walk was correct , JS did it, JM let him. All good.
The rest is inferential guesswork based on edited snippets of conversations on a reality TV show.
That would be really bad for business.
Can you imagine them saying that Barkley dances too much, slow to hit the hole, has suspect vision. is a poor pass blocker and allowing that to be aired. No player would ever want to come to the team and know they might get publicly trashed by the FO.
The same goes for the QB situation. Do you think the Giants can actually allow it to be aired that they do not believe in DJ when they know they have to roll with him this year.
Common sense tells you that a lot of this is performative. A massively watered down version of things. Perhaps some real shots of real conversation like the at the combine.
I would watch with a few large grains of salt, and assume that much of what you are seeing is staged. I don't think you can pass any judgements based on seeing this. Furthermore, you judge people by the results. In the end, they let Barkley go which was the right decision for the NY Giants. That is a good result. We will have to wait and see if these decisions were correct: Burns, Runyon/Eluemunor and the rest of OL signees, Nabers, Nubin (letting McKinney walk), etc. How a show like HK portrays getting to these decisions is interesting to fans but in the end doesn't mean much. If Shoen is getting the decisions right, then he will be praised, wrong and he better cover his ass on the way out.
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Absolute certainty that Mara calls all the shots. Certainty that Giants are all in on Jones. etc. And it's still out there that this team is train wreck. Ok, maybe, maybe not. And if they're not, then what? More retreat more rationalities? At some point you would hope the realization might sink in that we don't always know as much as we pretend and that maybe our absolute certainty isn't always as solid as we tell ourselves (and others).
"What if they're good" isn't really an argument. They HAVE been bad, and the rationalizations have all been coming from those trying to convince themselves that they haven't been bad.