Out with Wink's quirky and ineffective formations against the opponents' run game, HC Dabol all but pleaded for an NFL caliber run defense. Shane Bowen was hired in large part to make scheme changes and lead improvement. The interior DL is Dex and a lot of second tier guys, Nuñez-Roches, Davidson, Riley, Phillips--is there reason, other than scheme, to expect better?
But what of defense vs run game outside? Spiderman is the big FA signing and fans are excited. Pass rush, little doubt we'll be better and have balance and maybe a tad of depth if AO can stay healthy. But doubts linger, to me, that Bowen is going to be able to field a much better defense against the run. In a thread last week, gidiefor posted Burns' 20 minutes highlight film. I saw exactly one play, just before or after the 17-minute mark, of Burns defending a sweep/off tackle run--it was included in the highlights because, after he was washed well outside, he came back around and made a tackle from behind, much as we've witnessed NYG edge defenders do in the past few years. Nor is this Kayvon's strength, small butt, thin lower body, and not a lot of anchor to set the edge and blow up the play. Has he gotten better? Yes. Is he Strayhan-esque? No one on the roster comes close. We know it's the weakest part of AO's game. Ryder Anderson, Boogie Basham, both mentioned in HK, marginal players.
So, aside from no longer having LW or A'Shawn next to Dex, is better play against the run going to come from ILBs? Because I don't see it coming from the OLBs'. Is that wrongheaded? Thoughts?
You need to re-watch the Burns highlights. He makes several great plays vs the run.
You need to re-watch the Burns highlights. He makes several great plays vs the run.
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Correct me if I’m wrong. Now, don’t think he meant every down but as a base concept. Given we have for the last two years been watching a D that rarely, if ever, used more than two DLs this alone could make a difference. And we have to hope for some development from the Rileys/ Davidsons on the team. Bowen’s D is supposed to be far more conventional than Winks. It would seem having a plan and personnel for early down run D would be part of it.
Bill, agree that numbers alone along the front will help, can hardly be worse than Wink’s formations, but say what SB lines up resembles a traditional 3-4, how confident are you that if Philly takes aim at the edges, our athletic but lean guys on the edge can actually set it vs double team or a TE to help?
Don’t know really. But a better/different scheme is a decent starting place. This is the best edge talent we’ve had in a while. I looking forward to seeing them.
This defense will be the return on gang tackling because more zone and more guys with their eyes on the ball. So when one guy makes a good read and makes contact there will be another to come clean it up.
Yes I think with our DEs on the attack they are going to miss contain a couple times, you have to hope it is limited and hope your safeties and corners are going to barrel in once they see the handoff. In Bowens defense its an assumed risk that relies on players vision, instincts, and intelligence. The benefit of the pressure out weighs the occasional misses is the plan.
If you wanted to be concerned, I would focus more the the extremely new and young secondary and lack of coverage linebackers. They need to understand their assignments and adjust on the fly based on formations. If they fail at that, then it can get real ugly really quick with players running free.
It’s the million dollar question, along with our offensive line in general.
I would feel better with Leonard Williams and A’Shawn Robinson still wearing Blue.
I think we need to be patient and see how everything unfolds in Shane Bowen's new system.
The Titans in recent years, their edge defender included Harold Landry, Bud Dupree and Arden Key. I would suggest that Thibodeaux, Burns and Ojulari are at least on par as run defenders.
Looking at the Titans run defence's (yards per carry) over recent years:
2023: 3.8 YPC (equal 4th in NFL
2022: 3.4 YPC (equal 1st in NFL)
2021: 3.9 YPC (4th in NFL)
I think there are reasonable grounds to expect our run defence to significantly improve. Having said that, we do need to see the results on this field.
I am keen to see how this unfolds over training camp and preseason.
Btw, Barkley ran for 168 yards against them on opening day. Naturally, one of the few qb’s they stopped in 2022 was Daniel Jones.
2023 ? Teams either passed over them or ran over them. If they stopped the pass, the running game made roadkill of them and if the stopped the run, teams passed on them.
We’ll see. I think Dexter and Okerke better stay healthy and have good years.
This defense will be the return on gang tackling because more zone and more guys with their eyes on the ball. So when one guy makes a good read and makes contact there will be another to come clean it up.
Yes I think with our DEs on the attack they are going to miss contain a couple times, you have to hope it is limited and hope your safeties and corners are going to barrel in once they see the handoff. In Bowens defense its an assumed risk that relies on players vision, instincts, and intelligence. The benefit of the pressure out weighs the occasional misses is the plan.
If you wanted to be concerned, I would focus more the the extremely new and young secondary and lack of coverage linebackers. They need to understand their assignments and adjust on the fly based on formations. If they fail at that, then it can get real ugly really quick with players running free.
Steel Giant, good post, your para 1 reflects what we saw too often, my eyes at least. We can hope that guys flying to the ball will work, new system, new personnel learning that and each other, it may take some time. My worry on the DEs/OLBs is not so much missing contain but raw capability, strength and leverage to hold edge rather than mis-reads, but of course there is that too
Pete, we will, I confess to need more training in SB system and understanding reads and responsibilities of DBs
HJ that sounds like a s..t show. Was it Titans we were gifted a late turnover?
But they didn't so the narrative stays the same... unless you think some plays shouldn't count...
Every team in the NFL can point to 2-3 plays that make or break a season. If you watch football you know this..
We have the LB's overall to stop the run but the DL outside of Lawrence is weak so I'm thinking we'll be "average" at best but better against the pass especially if Flott is for real as CB #2.
We have the LB's overall to stop the run but the DL outside of Lawrence is weak so I'm thinking we'll be "average" at best but better against the pass especially if Flott is for real as CB #2.
SGMen, only time will tell is a bet I'll take.
But I'll disagree in part LBs to stop the run: 1/OLBs I have concerns per the OP--how long does it take the League to figure out they can't or for KT and BB to prove they can; and 2/McFadden has core and strength as a good run stopper (reads are often off) but he lacks range, big time; with Okereke I think you're on solid ground.
In the passing game, as many have said, it's a very young unit, whether in stopping the run or pass defense. Banks is tough, his reads need to improve. I'm not sold on Flott vs run or pass--he's not a good tackler and I think his length hurts him vs twitchy, quick change of direction receivers and RBs, is why the experiment at slot was so short-lived. I don't know which part of d coaches put that out there as a possible solution.
Burns and KT might be a DE on one play or a OLB on another play.
Bowen has the front seven, DL and LB coaches, all working together in film room and practices. This was not the case in Wink's set up. The reason for this is, it is vital the DL knows what responsibilities of gap coverage the linebackers have on every play. The DL also needs to shift the correct spots based on the offense formation choice.
It is to my understanding that DL needs to be cognizant of the LBs role because they are being told to make sure they do not try to beat their man into the gap that a LB is planning on attacking. Bowen wants the DL attacking but wants them to make sure they are forcing their man to leave the place the linebackers plan on filling.
Point being the overall run run defense should improve because the front seven work together and maintain gap responsibility. Expect the ends to get up-field on stay wider and create interior holes for linebackers to shoot through on running plays. Interior's DL and Linebackers fill interior gaps and close the pocket pushing the play to wide DEs, and the DBs will have to be aware if DE missing the man pushed to them and help contain the edges.
Burns and KT might be a DE on one play or a OLB on another play.
blueblood, I'll do that and it makes me wonder how different DE vs OLB personnel for BB and KT would be to scheme against. Thanks!
Bowen has the front seven, DL and LB coaches, all working together in film room and practices. This was not the case in Wink's set up. The reason for this is, it is vital the DL knows what responsibilities of gap coverage the linebackers have on every play. The DL also needs to shift the correct spots based on the offense formation choice.
It is to my understanding that DL needs to be cognizant of the LBs role because they are being told to make sure they do not try to beat their man into the gap that a LB is planning on attacking. Bowen wants the DL attacking but wants them to make sure they are forcing their man to leave the place the linebackers plan on filling.
Point being the overall run run defense should improve because the front seven work together and maintain gap responsibility. Expect the ends to get up-field on stay wider and create interior holes for linebackers to shoot through on running plays. Interior's DL and Linebackers fill interior gaps and close the pocket pushing the play to wide DEs, and the DBs will have to be aware if DE missing the man pushed to them and help contain the edges.
another good one, Steel, sounds solid in theory but quite the learning curve to implement in practice...and in games.
It will be interesting to get Dex's candid takes on SB scheme, because he's the fulcrum around which so much hinges. From all you say, it's going to look a LOT different from WM, which probably isn't bad, but will it be much more effective and get the O back on the field in decent field position?
+1 swapping out old DC for a new won't change fundamental football want to and sticking your face in the opponent's mid-section
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We will see. Scheme can make a big difference.
You need to re-watch the Burns highlights. He makes several great plays vs the run.
scheme should help, but Reale show me the way on that tape—I’m not talking QB flushed out of the pocket runs.
There was a play near the goal line, a blown up draw, a chase down from behind, and a blown up off tackle for sure. All were TFL where he beat his man quickly. I don't disagree where he might have more issues with downhill power right at him. A lot of players have trouble with that.
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he talked a lot about the differences this year (1 gap) vs the prior 2 years w/ wink (2 gap, with exotic pressure packages).
Thanks, Eric, from early spring?
the LB interviews with schmelk from last week - okereke's interview in particular (the first 10 min or so).
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=647792 - ( New Window )
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Another big change between Wink and Bowen is gap responsibility. There is a lot more gap responsibility in Bowen's system.
Bowen has the front seven, DL and LB coaches, all working together in film room and practices. This was not the case in Wink's set up. The reason for this is, it is vital the DL knows what responsibilities of gap coverage the linebackers have on every play. The DL also needs to shift the correct spots based on the offense formation choice.
It is to my understanding that DL needs to be cognizant of the LBs role because they are being told to make sure they do not try to beat their man into the gap that a LB is planning on attacking. Bowen wants the DL attacking but wants them to make sure they are forcing their man to leave the place the linebackers plan on filling.
Point being the overall run run defense should improve because the front seven work together and maintain gap responsibility. Expect the ends to get up-field on stay wider and create interior holes for linebackers to shoot through on running plays. Interior's DL and Linebackers fill interior gaps and close the pocket pushing the play to wide DEs, and the DBs will have to be aware if DE missing the man pushed to them and help contain the edges.
another good one, Steel, sounds solid in theory but quite the learning curve to implement in practice...and in games.
It will be interesting to get Dex's candid takes on SB scheme, because he's the fulcrum around which so much hinges. From all you say, it's going to look a LOT different from WM, which probably isn't bad, but will it be much more effective and get the O back on the field in decent field position?
It is quite the learning curve, which is why I do not expect this defense to be top notch THIS year. They still need some guys and there is a lot communication errors that will most likely happen when installing this kind of defense.
On the flip side, when you hear all the players in their interviews, pro and college, they all played some version of this defense because it is way more standard than Winks. So most of them are comfortable with it and some of them are even more excited. Some were even quoted that they like this defense because "its more like playing defense" meaning in Wink system the jobs and positions changed a lot, but this one is more set with responsibilities, put the onus on the players to do their job, and gives all of them the ability to make plays because their eyes on the ball.
My personal take is some players that Wink liked because they are good man might not be successful in this defense and other guys who were written off might actually shine.
My 2 dark horse candidates that could have surprising seasons by years end are Tre Hawkins and Alex Johnson. Hawkins played well enough in Wink's defense but then got destroyed when on an island, but if you look at his write up he actually projected to be zone corner because he did not have elite speed to play man in the NFL. Alex Johnson was paid significant money as a UDFA but his highlight show great read and anticipation of the quarterback and blew up some screen passes.
I think Jordan Riley will have the inside track to earn the job as a DT for pass rush and Boogie/Davidson to compete to handle run support. In a perfect world they will try to upgrade this position.
My personal biggest concern is the LBs, This is every important spot in Bowen's defense we simply do not top notch guys outside of Okereke. I expect this will be another major upgrade next off season.
This season will have growing pains but I expect a really good defense next year. Anything great that happens this year will be big plusses for next year. We are very young on that side of the ball.
They're the ones who watch the player every game, every play.
The linked thread on Burns is from mid-November of last season. There are a range of opinions. If you read all the way to the end, you will see several opinions about BB as a run defender. "Average" is the most complimentary comment; some are less so.
Several posters in the thread express the view that BB needs to be paired with another plus pass rusher for him to be at his most effective. Giants can hope KT provides that element, but there is the question of whether BB and KT are too much the same type of player overall, rather than complements.
r/panthers - ( New Window )
Steel, have to circle back