If you filter out scrambles and kneels, Jones rushed the ball 55 times for 345 yards in 2022. And if you filter out quarterback sneaks it's more like 40 for 286.
I think that's a pretty different view than the 120 rushes for 708 yards total overall numbers. That comes out to about 2.5 rushes per game where Jones had has his number called as a true rusher (not taking into consider reads where the quarterback decides who rushes).
Those numbers indicate to me the majority of times he ran the ball, it was on a pass play where he decided to take off. I was surprised to see that.
It'll be interesting to see if those numbers go way down this year.
It very much was a big part of his game. The real question is whether it needs to be.
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The idea that his running was or needs to be a big part of his game is overrated. He was being run out of the pocket on nearly every play. Running was a necessity.
It very much was a big part of his game. The real question is whether it needs to be.
Agreed.
Why also did Jones have dramatically more rush attempts; 120, in 2022- the season people say was his best OL?
He had put up 45, 62 and 64 rush attempts in the previous 3 seasons and it’s not like he great OL play or stellar “weapons” then.
The notion it's going to be 2:1 pass to rush seems pretty aspirational. And even then, 2K yards with fewer from Jones and more from the running back group seems fantastical.
I don't recall him evading pass rushers and improvising for over 5.5 yards per carry, but that is pretty damned good in my opinion.
I recall him being much more unathletic in the pocket, but maybe my memory is scarred by 2023.
What people? Dope smokers? This OL has been shit for 12 years.
WTF
I wouldn't expect too many designed runs in his 1st six or so games.
I would also expect an offense similar to 2022 with more downfield attempts. Yes, "short" passing game to Nabers and Robinson(as the run alternative). If Johnson gets out there, he will be the mid-range target and may very well be important in keeping the LBs off the line.
Whether he can function as a really good QB without running behind a really competent OL - who knows?
IMO, Jones can look competent behind a decent OL. Anybody in the NFL can. My question is, can he rise above competent. I'm not so sure.
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in 2022- the season people say was his best OL?
What people? Dope smokers? This OL has been shit for 12 years.
WTF
Ok, well if his OL was no better in 2022, then why was he terrible in 2020, 2021 & 2023. Why could he play well in 2022 with a bad OL but not any other season?
QB has running Stats
- subtract scrambles
- subtract kneels
- subtract sneaks
Shocked that if I negate all of those numbers he rushes less?
Also you said
"not taking into consider reads where the quarterback decides who rushes"
in 2022 they ran a ton of option read running, those are also designed runs and were a big part of the offense.
I am confused on what you thought you saw.
Do this same math on other QBs, how much different would it be for them?
Also in 2022 they were not all running for his life.
Remember the Bears game, there was a lot of passing plays where they just ignored DJ and didnt account for him taking off at all and he torched them.
For fun, the counterpoint to this is in 2022 we did not have the receiving weapons and speed we have today. So if DJ can get the ball where it belongs then the defense will have to respect the WRs and therefore open the lanes for himself again.
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will be realistic in 2024. We caught the NFL by surprise (to a certain extent), they were all keying on Barkley. So Jones would fake to Barkley, the LBs/etc follow him, and Jones goes around the other end. It really worked well for a while. Jones had some big holes and I don't think people realized how fast he was. Faking to Singletary won't have the same effect, the defenses will be playing things pretty straight up until we can get them scared about some aspect of our offense.
For fun, the counterpoint to this is in 2022 we did not have the receiving weapons and speed we have today. So if DJ can get the ball where it belongs then the defense will have to respect the WRs and therefore open the lanes for himself again.
I agree, which is why I put the last sentence in there. Before it was Barkley which defenses gameplanned for. Now we need to find something else. Like you said if Jones can actually drive a passing attack then the defense has to focus on stopping that (either via rush, dropping more players, etc.) and that may open up Jones to run effectively again. Until we show we can do something well though, it will be a base, vanilla D, just because the defenses can stop us like that
Why also did Jones have dramatically more rush attempts; 120, in 2022- the season people say was his best OL?
He had put up 45, 62 and 64 rush attempts in the previous 3 seasons and it’s not like he great OL play or stellar “weapons” then.
Because Joe judge was a fucking idiot.
I dont care if the pass is incomplete.
We need make the threat early every game. Get those safeties to stay back. Then work the underneath stuff with YAC, use running game to help stay on schedule.
To me I always felt we ran the ball too much for him to be successful because I think he would do better with more opportunities.
Too many drives where we would run it twice and DJ will have one shot to convert 3rd and 6. I would feel more comfortable giving him have 2 chances to convert 2nd and 8.
While this offense for better or for worse will need to rely on DJ to be successful, I would prefer to give him the chance of having less high pressure downs. But of course the line needs needs to be average, he is not an improviser style QB.
The one big thing I dont understand with DJ is: He came from Cutcliffe and DJ is apparently a smart dude. Why does he not do more field general things at the line of scrimmage? You saw how Daboll grilled the rookies in hard knocks, I dont think they would have gave DJ that contract if he was not intelligent enough to run Daboll's offense.
While, Yes, I have concerns over DJ pulling the trigger which needs to happen. I still dont understand why I have not seen him have more command at the line like Eli and Peyton.
Maybe a better, more succinct way to break it down is:
Kneels: 13 attempts, -15 yards
Scrambles: 53 attempts, 378 yards
Designed Runs (including sneaks): 55 attempts, 345 yards
If you subtract sneaks (that's a little bit of an arbitrary assessment) he ran outside on a designed run about 40 times.
I don't have the skills of divination some BBIers do when it comes to intent, so no guess on my part if Jones scrambled because of pressure, instruction, or failure by the pass catchers.
What I do know is 53 times there was a pass play called and Jones ran. And that if he runs less in those situations, the Giants need to gain more yards passing to have a statistical chance of improving their scoring offense.
Maybe a better, more succinct way to break it down is:
Kneels: 13 attempts, -15 yards
Scrambles: 53 attempts, 378 yards
Designed Runs (including sneaks): 55 attempts, 345 yards
If you subtract sneaks (that's a little bit of an arbitrary assessment) he ran outside on a designed run about 40 times.
I don't have the skills of divination some BBIers do when it comes to intent, so no guess on my part if Jones scrambled because of pressure, instruction, or failure by the pass catchers.
What I do know is 53 times there was a pass play called and Jones ran. And that if he runs less in those situations, the Giants need to gain more yards passing to have a statistical chance of improving their scoring offense.
I think this mostly comes down to O-Line play, the idea stays the same. Look down field and take off when the pressure is there. The need is that the O-line give more than 2 seconds to look down field before taking off. Last year, the loss of Thomas and lack of a skillful interior blockers cause way too much pressure early. Then DJ clock was ruined and he started taking off too early on plays making the assumption his protection sucked. He was not wrong but hopefully, BIG HOPE - I know :) He has some more trust in his line this year and steps into a pocket and delivers.
I don't have a data point as to the time-to-scramble. His average pocket time was a perfectly acceptable 2.5 seconds in 2022, but that's a dubious metric.
We all know he was under a lot of pressure that year, 5th most pressured QB, 8th highest number of pressured throws. So I don't discount pressure as a huge contributor to why he took off.
My broader concern is the short passing game, and the net result of taking off so frequently, is a combination of all the parts sucking. Including the QB.
Why also did Jones have dramatically more rush attempts; 120, in 2022- the season people say was his best OL?
He had put up 45, 62 and 64 rush attempts in the previous 3 seasons and it’s not like he great OL play or stellar “weapons” then.
well, truth be told our receiving corps was probably its worst in 2022. I mean Richie James, Hodgins (off waivers), Golliday (nada), Johnson, Slayton etc. wasn't exactly much to write home about.
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He had a 141, 161 and 104 rush attempts in his 3 years at Duke.
Why also did Jones have dramatically more rush attempts; 120, in 2022- the season people say was his best OL?
He had put up 45, 62 and 64 rush attempts in the previous 3 seasons and it’s not like he great OL play or stellar “weapons” then.
well, truth be told our receiving corps was probably its worst in 2022. I mean Richie James, Hodgins (off waivers), Golliday (nada), Johnson, Slayton etc. wasn't exactly much to write home about.
So you are saying Jones had a worse WR corp and an equally bad OL in 2022, yet he put up his best numbers.
So what explains why he has been worse with therefore better WRs in other seasons and an equally bad OL?
Jones isn’t a good enough QB but 2022 was the first time health and competent coaching collided, IMO.
Jones isn’t a good enough QB but 2022 was the first time health and competent coaching collided, IMO.
And why with that same HC and better weapons did he put up a historically bad 6 games? While being outplayed by his backups?
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I think that’s obvious, no? 2022 also featured Thomas playing almost 100% of the snaps at an all pro level. He was injured in 2021 and 2023.
Jones isn’t a good enough QB but 2022 was the first time health and competent coaching collided, IMO.
And why with that same HC and better weapons did he put up a historically bad 6 games? While being outplayed by his backups?
Is hat a serious question? For all of those 6 games, there was no Thomas and you had Ezeudu had LT. At timnes, you had what might possibly be the worst OL in the history of the nFL in front of him with Ezeudu, Bredeson, McKethan, and Neal. Name a worse collection of OL players. I challenge you.
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In comment 16557048 UConn4523 said:
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I think that’s obvious, no? 2022 also featured Thomas playing almost 100% of the snaps at an all pro level. He was injured in 2021 and 2023.
Jones isn’t a good enough QB but 2022 was the first time health and competent coaching collided, IMO.
And why with that same HC and better weapons did he put up a historically bad 6 games? While being outplayed by his backups?
Is hat a serious question? For all of those 6 games, there was no Thomas and you had Ezeudu had LT. At timnes, you had what might possibly be the worst OL in the history of the nFL in front of him with Ezeudu, Bredeson, McKethan, and Neal. Name a worse collection of OL players. I challenge you.
Thats really great. But Jones put up the lowest TD to pass attempts in NFL history with just 2 TDs in 160 pass attempts. Not one QB dating back to the 1940s has done worse than that.
Actually thats not correct. There is one other. Daniel Jones in 2020 who threw 2 TDs in 186 pass attempts
Another example of why watching something is still different than just pull out random stats.