Art Stapleton @art_stapleton
Have not seen Episode 4 of Hard Knocks, but sounds like walk-up and day of the NFL Draft is covered, right up until the start of the draft.
Joe Schoen teased a draft day meeting with John Mara, Steve Tisch and Brian Daboll on
@PSchrags
HK podcast.
Next week's finale, presumably, will be the draft and some spring wrap-up.
I believe the names in blue were those still with the team that drafted them.
The better exercise would have been to compare Jones to some of those names in red. That would have been embarrassing.
I think you're describing how you would prefer things to operate. I am describing how -- with the aid of potentially the most transparent contemporary evidence afforded fans to a front office ever -- I believe they appear to be.
Schoen is a big part of the decision matrix, and the Giants need him to be a good at it.
I despise Gettleman for the destruction he oversaw. However, the one smart thing he said is that picking the wrong QB will set back a franchise 5 years. Sadly for us, that was a self fulfilling prophecy.
Too many on this board have this phobia of missing out on a high pick for QB.
But missing on the pick is actually fine IF you pivot quickly enough to move on to another solution.
Right now, Schoen looks like a total dolt for sticking with Jones for a sixth season.
I don't know about that, but I do think he leaned into the leadership thing a little too much. He mentioned it at the Combine and again at MetLife. You can't go into a locker room and automatically be a leader, you have to earn that.
I wonder if NYG thought he might be too much locker room lawyer. And I like Odunze, but I think the heavy focus on being a leader might have hurt him a bit, although I think the preference for Nabers and Harrison was purely based on their styles of play.
Quote:
This is a shitty thing to say, but I think Odunze is soft, and the Giants dinged him for that.
I don't know about that, but I do think he leaned into the leadership thing a little too much. He mentioned it at the Combine and again at MetLife. You can't go into a locker room and automatically be a leader, you have to earn that.
I wonder if NYG thought he might be too much locker room lawyer. And I like Odunze, but I think the heavy focus on being a leader might have hurt him a bit, although I think the preference for Nabers and Harrison was purely based on their styles of play.
It's ok for the WR to be a dawg (🤮), but the QB has to be John Glenn.
I hope a lot of what we've seen on HK has been scripted.
Quote:
In comment 16558417 JonC said:
Quote:
can't force another AB at #6, especially when a HoF talent at a position of extreme need had grabbed their souls.
That sounds familiar, like 2018.
At least they got the QB evals correct in 2018.
Did they? Two names...Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson.
Quote:
it doesnt matter how much $ daboll has in the bank right now, either he is that guy who will force the issue when he has a conviction or he isnt. this isnt just a sean payton thing either, kyle shannahan, pete carroll, sean mcvay, lafleur, have all had to lead similar difficult decisions. head coaches lead or they get fired.
I think you're describing how you would prefer things to operate. I am describing how -- with the aid of potentially the most transparent contemporary evidence afforded fans to a front office ever -- I believe they appear to be.
Schoen is a big part of the decision matrix, and the Giants need him to be a good at it.
we've seen transparent evidence both ways, and i would argue we've seen more evidence the way i am describing. neither of us knows how much additional evidence we didnt see other than it being likely we only saw a tip of the iceberg. whoever got 90% of the screentime was going to seem like the one in control and by his own design daboll didnt want that to be him.
we saw discussions re the importance of strength of "conviction" across multiple internal discussions. the coaches were asked point blank to convey their conviction in the QBs they were considering move up for. the WR that daboll was most enthused about from the combine episode is the guy they ended up targeting/picking at #6, not the one Schoen was portrayed initially to seem more enthused by prior to hearing from daboll. schoen's first walk over to the NE box in Indy appeared to be right after the daboll led interviews of the Qbs.
how strong the convictions actually/specifically were from whomever is an unknown but it doesnt matter. the results are going to be owned by the head coach first and foremost because that is how the NFL works - they get paid the most and fired fastest. get the decision right and you have a 9 figure successful career that spans the next couple decades. 2nd prize in failure is a public flogging and the high point of your future reputation being a leak to the post that "if it were up to me i'd have traded up for drake maye".
Get OL fixed.....and it sure seems like they are not just going to hope for the young guys to develop. They have options.
Could be just editing.....but the top 4 picks were all identified as targets.....so it comes across as a very solid draft.
I don't think Jones needs to be "pushed", I think even his biggest detractors will acknowledge that he works hard. The question is, have we already seen the best of him, or can he up his game?
The only reason picking the wrong QB would set a team back 5-7 years is if you refuse to acknowledge the mistake and keep trying to justify the pick. Sound familiar?
Quote:
In comment 16558438 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16558417 JonC said:
Quote:
can't force another AB at #6, especially when a HoF talent at a position of extreme need had grabbed their souls.
That sounds familiar, like 2018.
At least they got the QB evals correct in 2018.
Did they? Two names...Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson.
Those don't bother me, both had significant warts in their games and carried significant risks. NYG did well to avoid the top consensus QBs in a draft where they were wicked overhyped.
Because us rooting has zero impact on whether they win or lose.
I think you're describing how you would prefer things to operate. I am describing how -- with the aid of potentially the most transparent contemporary evidence afforded fans to a front office ever -- I believe they appear to be.
Schoen is a big part of the decision matrix, and the Giants need him to be a good at it.
we've seen transparent evidence both ways, and i would argue we've seen more evidence the way i am describing. neither of us knows how much additional evidence we didnt see other than it being likely we only saw a tip of the iceberg. whoever got 90% of the screentime was going to seem like the one in control and by his own design daboll didnt want that to be him.
Based on at least the ~20 years John Mara has been CEO the effective hierarchy of the Giants has been Mara > GM > Head Coach.
Going back to Accorsi, every GM has survived a coaching firing, and arguably actually fired the coach.
So up against the historical precedent, the way they both have presented themselves publicly over the last 3 years, and the way the sneak peak into the front office has framed it -- I'm pretty comfortable assuming the power dynamic between Schoen and Daboll is pretty evenly divided.
I think Schoen absolutely defers to Daboll when it comes to stack ranking players, but it's pretty obvious when it comes to which combination of players they can and do acquire is largely up to Schoen.
And just to revisit my initial comment, Daboll is demonstrably pretty good at the quarterback thing. The Giants need Schoen to be too.
That scene felt exactly like when he pulled up the Tennessee defensive stats.
I put more prep into my BBI threads than Daboll is doing for the cameras.
Exactly this. I think many are overreacting to clearly restaged scenes. And while I'm happy to see that Mara SEEMS to be allowing Schoen to call the shots, all of his scenes were obvious reshoots. Which means we don't know how things went off off-screen.
Quote:
In comment 16558499 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16558460 The Mike said:
Quote:
In comment 16558449 UberAlias said:
Quote:
2019.
This ^
But they're still in the 2019 mistake, and not trying to pull out of it.
I despise Gettleman for the destruction he oversaw. However, the one smart thing he said is that picking the wrong QB will set back a franchise 5 years. Sadly for us, that was a self fulfilling prophecy. With that said, the Giants clearly did not view McCarthy, Penix or Nix worth a top 10 pick. If DJ sucks as expected, the record will suck as well and the Giants will once again be picking high next year and moving on from DJ. One should presume they view the QB’s coming out next year more favorably then those 3.
Drafting the wrong QB doesn't set you back 5 years. Sticking to him does. Watching Mara say a potential test would give him heart palpitations was infuriating. Why? He can't be fired, the team stinks, and he doesn't have a QB! From Mara's perspective what is there to lose by trading up to get a QB?
Watching this show is like watching a car spin its wheels in quicksand.
The point is you have to give any QB at least 3 years and if he is a bust, then you are back to square one which could result in 1or 2 more years before the new guy produces.
Quote:
I despise Gettleman for the destruction he oversaw. However, the one smart thing he said is that picking the wrong QB will set back a franchise 5 years. Sadly for us, that was a self fulfilling prophecy.
Too many on this board have this phobia of missing out on a high pick for QB.
But missing on the pick is actually fine IF you pivot quickly enough to move on to another solution.
Right now, Schoen looks like a total dolt for sticking with Jones for a sixth season.
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Why not? The Giants are the test case for why you CAN move on after two years.
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Why not? The Giants are the test case for why you CAN move on after two years.
Sure. That strategy has worked well with Head Coaches so why wouldn’t it work well with a QB? Don’t pick a QB just to pick a QB. And certainly don’t mortgage the future to move up for a QB that you don’t feel strongly about.
Quote:
In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Why not? The Giants are the test case for why you CAN move on after two years.
Sure. That strategy has worked well with Head Coaches so why wouldn’t it work well with a QB? Don’t pick a QB just to pick a QB. And certainly don’t mortgage the future to move up for a QB that you don’t feel strongly about.
So full bloom love.
Why didn't we just keep Gettleman as GM, then?
It was just whether or not that QB is still with the team that drafted them.
And the point of the exercise was to show if you are going to put the resources - especially a high first round pick + the cost of a trade up- you better get it right or be screwed. Hence Daboll saying “take a Stroud” followed by someone saying or Josh (Allen)
Baffling people couldn’t comprehend that or just didnt fit their narrative that the Giants want to stick with Daniel Jones when every other piece of evidence shows they tried to trade up.
So full bloom love.
Why didn't we just keep Gettleman as GM, then?
I mean, yes, if you're going to have to trade multiple high draft picks to move up for a QB, you better damn well be in full bloom love with a QB. And if you're spending a high draft pick on a QB, you should have a conviction that they will be better than what you have already, especially when you're in position to draft a blue chip prospect at another position of need.
It's apparent that Schoen and co want to move on, couldn't work out a trand, and don't seem to think the three QBs you're harping on will be better than Jones while you do. That's fine. Maybe you're right. Maybe Schoen is wrong. But I think I'll probably hedge on the side of the guys who actually do this for a living and not the dude frothing at the mouth on his couch with a track record of being in full bloom love with the likes of Willis, Pickett, and Corral. Call me crazy.
Quote:
In comment 16558449 UberAlias said:
Quote:
2019.
This ^
But they're still in the 2019 mistake, and not trying to pull out of it.
A) Not eat giant dead cap on jones, while getting better at biggest need skill position, something they falt they had to do anyway. That may be intentional if they already know they plan to replace jones next year, either by free agency or the draft, and they didn't give away capital to do it, or try to do it in a year when they were already short on draft capital do to previous trades. You don't know what his plan is at QB. Your guessing he has none, I doubt that is the case.
[quote] In comment 16558318 Costy16 said:
Quote:
In comment 16558312 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 16558261 section125 said:
Quote:
Clearly they were looking to get at QB. Yes Wolf said, 1,2,3 and 1,2 - I am exaggerating...also clear the Wolf wanted a Qb and wasn't moving unless it was near a Rickey Wilson deal.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
It's not drafting a QB just to draft a QB. Those three are talented players that were drafted in the top twelve...one by a team that just paid Cousins, and the other two by teams with head coaches that know their QBs.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
They had already decided they weren't going to mortgage multiple future first rd picks on moving up for a QB. The objective of the offseason for offense was to get some OL protection and another playmaker at WR.
They didn't need to trade anything to get a QB that was on a par with (I'd argue better than) Drake Maye. If they had Maye worth trading the 2025 first rounder for but the other three not even with drafting at 9 after a trade down...I'd ask them what the hell they were watching on college football Saturdays. That is an enormous gap between Maye and the other three. [/quote It's interesting you say that when it's clear THEY didn't think any of the next 3 QBs were "on a par" with Maye.
I'll be interested to see how this grand plan unfolds.
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Why not? The Giants are the test case for why you CAN move on after two years.
Isn't this exactly what the Jets have done during the Giants/Jones era, twice? Draft Darnold, didn't work out so they moved on. Repeated with Zach Wilson. And somehow, many ppl in the league and media see the Jets as potential to win the AFC East and make a playoff push
I
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Quote:
In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Why not? The Giants are the test case for why you CAN move on after two years.
Isn't this exactly what the Jets have done during the Giants/Jones era, twice? Draft Darnold, didn't work out so they moved on. Repeated with Zach Wilson. And somehow, many ppl in the league and media see the Jets as potential to win the AFC East and make a playoff push
I
Each was given 3 years and they are now hoping a 40 yr old QB who did not last 4 plays last yr gets them across the finish line.
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Begging? He was barely audible.
Quote:
In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
The Steelers just did with Kenny Pickett. The Cardinals obviously did with Rosen.
It was clear as day after two years that Jones wasn't any good. It's been three years since that time, zero QBs drafted.
Quote:
In comment 16558868 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
The Steelers just did with Kenny Pickett. The Cardinals obviously did with Rosen.
It was clear as day after two years that Jones wasn't any good. It's been three years since that time, zero QBs drafted.
I won’t argue with this. But I will argue that they feel Jones + 2025 class > McCarthy, Penix, & Nix or mortgaging the future for Maye whom there was not consensus on anyway. I think the only QB they really liked and would stretch for was Daniels and he was not available. I’ve never liked DJ and would not have paid him, but in true Giants fashion, he leads them to the playoffs, Saquon refuses the same deal he accepts a year later, DJ predictably sucks, gets hurt and here we are. I think a yr from now the Giants will in fact have a new QB named either Carson or Quinn.
Quote:
In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Chicago waited three years on Fields.
Mac Jones got three years with the Pats, but he was so bad in year two that the Pats should have cut ties then...
Quote:
In comment 16558868 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Trey Lance, Mac Jones... I can't think of a single bad quarterback who isn't dealt after a very short period of time. Add in guys who were gone before a second contract and the list explodes - Trubisky, Mayfield, Mariota, Winston, etc. On every level, the initial selection, the endless evaluation and ultimately DJ's second contract has been an absolute abomination of managerial judgment by this franchise.
Why not offer NE #6, 2024 second, 2024 third, 2025 first & a 2025 second? Make Wolf reconsider.
When you plug in the names over the last few years at those draft slots, it's not that expensive. Now you've got Maye and you go from there.
Not sure how they plan to acquire their QB.
Why not offer NE #6, 2024 second, 2024 third, 2025 first & a 2025 second? Make Wolf reconsider.
When you plug in the names over the last few years at those draft slots, it's not that expensive. Now you've got Maye and you go from there.
Not sure how they plan to acquire their QB.
I don't think there was any way NE was trading that pick for any draft compensation. Would we have done so if we had that pick there? Absolutely not. The entire JJM subterfuge I believe was just an attempt to try to get NE to trade back. Kraft didn't buy it.
That has been the biggest change to come from the 2011 CBA that instituted a rookie wage scale. And like previous big changes to the league (the 1970 merger, 1994 FA & the salary cap), they have been followed by periods of Giants ineptitude.
If we are to take Hard Knocks seriously, what we see is an organization whose decisions are largely informed by its own past. So this current era of ineptitude makes sense.
Quote:
In comment 16558880 Bernie said:
Quote:
In comment 16558868 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
Quote:
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Trey Lance, Mac Jones... I can't think of a single bad quarterback who isn't dealt after a very short period of time. Add in guys who were gone before a second contract and the list explodes - Trubisky, Mayfield, Mariota, Winston, etc. On every level, the initial selection, the endless evaluation and ultimately DJ's second contract has been an absolute abomination of managerial judgment by this franchise.
The Cardinals moved on because they had the 1st pick and Kingsbury loved Kyler. Lance was the starter, suffered a season ending injury and Purdy killed it. All other teams gave at least 3 years before moving on and that was my original point made earlier. The mistakes with DJ were drafting him in the first place, not picking up the 5th yr option after deciding to give him a 4th yr, and then giving the 2nd contract. Other than Pickett, the 2 yr argument with any 1st round QB does not hold water from a pure evaluation perspective.
The whole NFL world was abuzz with gossip Wolf wasn't the guy in New England. I'm sure Schoen knew that.
I wanted to hear Schoen say: I hear what you're saying, so let me make you an official offer and I give you my word it's good up until the time you turn in the envelope. You don't have to answer right now. My first and second this year, my first and second next year.
That ways Wolf can bring it back to his masters and they either counter or reject.
That has been the biggest change to come from the 2011 CBA that instituted a rookie wage scale. And like previous big changes to the league (the 1970 merger, 1994 FA & the salary cap), they have been followed by periods of Giants ineptitude.
If we are to take Hard Knocks seriously, what we see is an organization whose decisions are largely informed by its own past. So this current era of ineptitude makes sense.
This is an insightful observation. Big changes to the league have been met very sluggishly by this franchise at a time when responsiveness to the changing dynamics of the game could not be a more important managerial core competency.
Quote:
Schoen says they are within striking distance. Schoen and Brown say they don't plan to be picking here again. They clearly like Maye. Wolf didn't sound confident in the conversation with Schoen, he left the door open.
The whole NFL world was abuzz with gossip Wolf wasn't the guy in New England. I'm sure Schoen knew that.
I wanted to hear Schoen say: I hear what you're saying, so let me make you an official offer and I give you my word it's good up until the time you turn in the envelope. You don't have to answer right now. My first and second this year, my first and second next year.
That ways Wolf can bring it back to his masters and they either counter or reject.
100% agree.
I also thought it was pretty cool to see our new OL coach speaking candidly about our FA acquisitions with our former star RB.
Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
That was the trade to make after we failed to get to the three spot.
I also thought it was pretty cool to see our new OL coach speaking candidly about our FA acquisitions with our former star RB.
Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
When a team meets with a player multiple times it probably means they can't all get on the same page. My guess is they wanted to get there with McCarthy but couldn't.
Quote:
I can understand not selecting a QB you don't like. However, I do find it concerning that with our extreme need at the position, we didn't like one of Penix, McCarthy or Nix enough to draft them in round 1?
I think you can conclude that they didn't view QB as an "extreme need".
Sure, they were willing to upgrade at the right price, but they weren't desperate. Unfortunately.
The mantra used by Schoen throughout this series has been Jones is a health risk. But, as far as I can tell, not really a risk as a talent. They believe in his talent.
If that is true, I find that very troubling.
If they actually believed in his talent they wouldnt have actively engaged in trading up. I just dont think this is worth being troubled over. The result isnt what they wanted and they told you that. If maye had been available they would have taken him.
That has been the biggest change to come from the 2011 CBA that instituted a rookie wage scale. And like previous big changes to the league (the 1970 merger, 1994 FA & the salary cap), they have been followed by periods of Giants ineptitude.
If we are to take Hard Knocks seriously, what we see is an organization whose decisions are largely informed by its own past. So this current era of ineptitude makes sense.
The Giants offense of the 90's sucked but they won a division title in 97 and went to a Super Bowl in 2000 and by 2004 they were well on their way. Calling that a period of Giants ineptitude is a stretch in my opinion. You should see stretches of time other franchises have.
Quote:
Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
That was the trade to make after we failed to get to the three spot.
It was the Vikings that tried to move up - #11 and #23 belonged to the Vikings. Jets were at #12.
There was a bit of confusion because Schoen mention Joe Douglas. I think the Jets may have enquired about a move up, but the picks offered that Schoen mentioned belonged to the Vikings.
He seems honest and genuine to a fault to me
That is useful to have the trust of the other GMs etc…
If that image is a bit cultivated and manufactured for the show, all the better.