Art Stapleton @art_stapleton
Have not seen Episode 4 of Hard Knocks, but sounds like walk-up and day of the NFL Draft is covered, right up until the start of the draft.
Joe Schoen teased a draft day meeting with John Mara, Steve Tisch and Brian Daboll on
@PSchrags
HK podcast.
Next week's finale, presumably, will be the draft and some spring wrap-up.
I was happy to hear him talk about the player who will likely be the RT for the Giants though.
The end where Schoen walked Mara and Tisch through the scenarios was really good. Surprised we got that level of detail.
Quote:
to the Giants for releasing what they did. There was a ton of unnecessary filler in this show, but the substantive stuff was much more revealing than I expected.
The end where Schoen walked Mara and Tisch through the scenarios was really good. Surprised we got that level of detail.
That really stood out as did the really honest admission that they wanted a new QB.
Quote:
This is a shitty thing to say, but I think Odunze is soft, and the Giants dinged him for that.
I don't draw that conclusion at all.
Nabers and Harrison, Jr were/are just better prospects.
The quality Schoen and Daboll have repeated about Nabers wasn't physical, it was mentality. I think Nabers has that factor and Odunze doesn't.
I was never an Odunze fan, really, so I'm glad they didn't have him ahead of Nabers. I said it for many months leading into the draft that Nabers was the best prospect. I don't see Odunze having the total game Nabers has at all. If he did, that "dawg" factor wouldn't matter as much, IMV...
But I get your point...
If you look at the shot of the sheet with each team’s needs, for Atlanta QB is not listed in that first column. No one anticipated what Atlanta did. And if you remember the draft night after Atlanta’s pick Chicago ran to the podium to get Odunze.
Didn’t he say 1, 2 and 3 this year, 1 and 2 next year?
Who here would have done that for Maye?
And not that they would ever mention background stuff, but not even a hint with Nabers. All unbridled enthusiasm about his personality.
That really stood out as did the really honest admission that they wanted a new QB.
But the theme was more centered around Jones's health injury. That's been the mode most of the series...
Although there was an interesting small piece when Schoen did say to either Chris or Tim that DJ's first six games before the injury were not flattering...
- Clear they believe in Jones, a little bit. But the injury concerns they have are very real. And my favorite lart is they acknowledged Jones sucked before getting injured agai
- makes me feel much better with the Nabers pick. That he was clearly their top non QB in the draft
- the selerate on from Naber/Harrison to Odunze was enough, that they were comfortable enough to trade down to 9 and take Odunze. Or surprisingly Bowers.
- as much as they clearly LOVED Nabers. They seriously considered the Vikes offer of 11/23. And another teams offer. To not run up to the podium.
- OL coach talking to Barkley, NOT committing to where on the line the new guys were playing. Another HUGE subtle tell of what they thought of Neal
Quote:
That really stood out as did the really honest admission that they wanted a new QB.
But the theme was more centered around Jones's health injury. That's been the mode most of the series...
Although there was an interesting small piece when Schoen did say to either Chris or Tim that DJ's first six games before the injury were not flattering...
Should read "...Jones's health history..."
His old man also allegedly, very quietly unloaded a clip into a guy's car : )
Quote:
I don't see a "dawg" mentality in MHJ. He's just a super-talented guy with great pedigree who lets his play do the talking. Like his old man...
His old man also allegedly, very quietly unloaded a clip into a guy's car : )
I forgot about that...
Also, Nabers had a gun issue, too.
No. “Rolling with Daniel” was very clearly Plan B for 2024. That gives me some hope.
- Clear they believe in Jones, a little bit. But the injury concerns they have are very real. And my favorite lart is they acknowledged Jones sucked before getting injured agai
- makes me feel much better with the Nabers pick. That he was clearly their top non QB in the draft
- the selerate on from Naber/Harrison to Odunze was enough, that they were comfortable enough to trade down to 9 and take Odunze. Or surprisingly Bowers.
- as much as they clearly LOVED Nabers. They seriously considered the Vikes offer of 11/23. And another teams offer. To not run up to the podium.
- OL coach talking to Barkley, NOT committing to where on the line the new guys were playing. Another HUGE subtle tell of what they thought of Neal
I think they knew Neal’s health status for camp could be a problem.
And not to state the obvious but this is finally Jones’ last chance.
Agree. He can’t see this and not realize he is the QB simply because they couldn’t land a better option yet, but they are trying.
Well, it looks like Team Jones won again. First, the contract from Schoen and now the new offensive toy and rebuilt OL from Schoen, too. And now QB threat - again.
JFC, Jones is like a cat with nine lives...
Yep. They are settling with Jones this year, no question.
Quote:
is no way Jones watches this and comes away feeling good. No Christmas cards for Schoen's family.
Agree. He can’t see this and not realize he is the QB simply because they couldn’t land a better option yet, but they are trying.
Agreed. If this doesn’t light a fire under him nothing will. Nabers will get open. Jones needs to get him the ball.
Schoen, to me, comes off as very smart and capable. It's a difficult job. This show has really been about him; unlike other hard knocks when the players and coaches can be more of the focus. Happy he's our GM.
Schoen throwing around F-bombs doesn't sound natural.
Daboll is a natural with the F-bombs...
It would have been great to see the massive eye roll from Schoen prior to that meeting.
Quote:
I think I saw enough middle aged white dudes saying dawg to know squeaky clean isn't a priority for this group.
Schoen throwing around F-bombs doesn't sound natural.
Daboll is a natural with the F-bombs...
And the cigar. In a pool.
He should have done the same thing with Chris he did with his daughter -write some names down on a piece of paper and ask which one he likes.
I can hear the producers for HK pulling Schoen aside and saying:
"Chris wants to get some interaction with you for the show. He wants a scene where you are debriefing him on the possible QB trade. He ran it by John, and he was cool with it..."
Schoen:
"Sure. Let's knock it out now..."
(Under his breath, he seems to say something like "Jesus Christ...but it's not audible...)
Quote:
but it was such a LOL moment for me when the show opens with Schoen updating Chris Mara.
He should have done the same thing with Chris he did with his daughter -write some names down on a piece of paper and ask which one he likes.
"Mystik Dan is technically a horse, Chris."
@DDuggan21
Some Hard Knocks takeaways:
• Schoen's teenage son cut right to the chase when he said why not trade up for a QB because he may only get this job once. The toll the stress of the job takes on Schoen has been evident during this series. There was the scene of him sitting alone in his office on draft day with his hands covering his face. Last week, he pulled his hat down over his face due to the Saquon situation. And earlier he talked about how the Saquon negotiations took 10 years off his life.
• Daboll's affection for Jayden Daniels was clear. From calling Daniels "my guy" when greeting him during the 30 visit to confirming he'd trade up for Daniels without hesitation. Dennis Hickey echoed Daboll's endorsement of a trade-up for Daniels.
Kafka, who finally made an appearance, supported trading up for Maye but wasn't as unequivocal. Odd that we didn't see Daboll's response on Maye.
Overall, wish we got more of a look at the QB scouting process like we did with the combine interviews.
• The show never revealed the Giants' final offer for the No. 3 pick. The package was obviously going to entail a 2025 first-round pick plus more. Mara was clearly not going to be comfortable making the godfather type of offer that would have been required to get the Patriots to bite.
• I don't care how anyone spins it, this has to be very awkward for Daniel Jones. He obviously had an idea what was going on behind the scenes, but it's different when the world gets to see your team trying to move on from you. Imagine what he must be thinking entering this season as he already is faced with overcoming a major injury.
• Schoen seemed more comfortable navigating the draft process than free agency. Picking at No. 6, they had narrowed down their list to Caleb, Daniels, Maye, Harrison, Nabers and Odunze. There was no consideration of JJ McCarthy or Joe Alt based on what was shown.
It would have been a major curve ball if Nabers went fifth. That would have set off a trade back scenario if the Bears were moving up for a tackle. The Giants would have added a third and a fourth to go back to 9. The goal hope would have been landing Odunze, but Brock Bowers was a more serious consideration than I realized. That would have been a surprise move based on Schoen's emphasis on positional value. No talk of McCarthy (or Penix or Nix) even in a trade back scenario.
• Everything we saw from Odunze during the process supported the reports about his impeccable character. Meanwhile, Daboll did more drilling down on Nabers' personality. You can see the connection because Daboll also has a "hot temper." Daboll clearly likes Nabers' fire, referring to him as a "dawg" repeatedly. Schoen seemed a bit more concerned about how Nabers' "competitive drive" could become a problem if not properly channeled, but obviously they're comfortable with that.
Quote:
...doesn't sound like an endorsement to me.
No. “Rolling with Daniel” was very clearly Plan B for 2024. That gives me some hope.
I disagree, if they wanted to move on that badly they should have had plan B and C in place to do so. Rolling it back with Daniel should have been plan S
Daboll with the cigar in the pool…hilarious
They definitely were interested in moving up for a QB. Pats really not interested as they needed a QB badly.
Schoen running different draft scenarios to Mara,Tisch and Daboll was interesting.
P.S. I learned that Rome Odunze is soft on this thread. When that kid has a Larry Fitzgerald(ceiling)/ Mike Evans(floor) career, we’ll look bad on this thread and laugh.
Get OL fixed.....and it sure seems like they are not just going to hope for the young guys to develop. They have options.
Could be just editing.....but the top 4 picks were all identified as targets.....so it comes across as a very solid draft.
Quote:
In comment 16558080 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...doesn't sound like an endorsement to me.
No. “Rolling with Daniel” was very clearly Plan B for 2024. That gives me some hope.
I disagree, if they wanted to move on that badly they should have had plan B and C in place to do so. Rolling it back with Daniel should have been plan S
For the life of me I can not figure out why some of you folks are having such trouble with the concept. The Giants really wanted a shot at one of the top 3 QBs, not so much because they wanted to move on from Jones; had that been the case they would have taken the next QB on their list at #6. They most likely wanted one of those guys because they saw a chance to get a QB with legit elite potential. Failing that they felt their next best option was to 'roll with Daniel' but not just Daniel but Daniel supported by a WR with elite potential.
P.S. I learned that Rome Odunze is soft on this thread. When that kid has a Larry Fitzgerald(ceiling)/ Mike Evans(floor) career, we’ll look bad on this thread and laugh.
I don’t think he is a soft player at all. He was soft spoken which some on this thread seem to be conflating with being a soft player.
Get OL fixed.....and it sure seems like they are not just going to hope for the young guys to develop. They have options.
Could be just editing.....but the top 4 picks were all identified as targets.....so it comes across as a very solid draft.
If the guy needs a fire lit under him in year 6 then they really did a poor job scouting him.
Watching that episode I had the sense Schoen never made an offer to
New England b/c they weren’t willing to move down unless it was for an insane haul.
Quote:
For showing way more than I expected on this show. The breakdown between Schoen and Daboll explaining the scenarios to Mara and Tisch was top notch.
P.S. I learned that Rome Odunze is soft on this thread. When that kid has a Larry Fitzgerald(ceiling)/ Mike Evans(floor) career, we’ll look bad on this thread and laugh.
I don’t think he is a soft player at all. He was soft spoken which some on this thread seem to be conflating with being a soft player.
He doesn’t have an alpha personality.
2. Mike Groh's favorite wide receiver in the draft was Nabers. Also, in the WR room, MHJ and Odunze seemed the most focused, but they clearly loved Nabers on the field and that may have taken priority over everything.
3. The narrative has been throughout the series that we've been smitten with Daniels and we wanted to move up for him in particular. Yet, even up until Draft Day, we were still talking with the Patriots about moving up to the 3rd pick, thinking the Commanders were going with Maye, leaving Daniels at 3. So did we have equal or near equal grades on Maye and Daniels?
4. If the three quarterbacks, MHJ, and Nabers had been taken, we might have moved down a spot with the Titans and taken Rome Odunze, or traded down with the Bears (the deal would've been #6 and our fifth-rounder for #9, Chicago's third, and Chicago's fourth). Then at #9, we would've taken Odunze or Brock Bowers.
5. Based on the previews of next episode, Jets wanted to trade up to #6. I know they were offering #11, but it's not clear what else ("so we get 11, 23..."). 23? What's 23?
6. Schoen is not a fan of Daniel Jones. Towards the end of the talk with Dabes, Mara, and Tisch, you could tell he felt resigned to rolling with DJ again. Daboll also seemed disappointed at the prospect of sticking with DJ.
My main takeaway is the true uncertainty of Draft Day. Even NFL GMs don't know who the other teams are going to take. While some uncertainty is expected, you'd think there'd be a bit more inside knowledge. It really seemed like we thought Maye was going #2 to the Commanders.
Watching that episode I had the sense Schoen never made an offer to
New England b/c they weren’t willing to move down unless it was for an insane haul.
Wolf said
They wanted 1, 2, 3 this year and 1,2 next year.
Obviously that’s way too much to give up for a team that has a ton of holes. Ultimately the Giants made the right choice and just took the BPA on their board at 6.
Yep. I guess they were as surprised as everyone else.
Quote:
On Jones echo what is being said here.
Watching that episode I had the sense Schoen never made an offer to
New England b/c they weren’t willing to move down unless it was for an insane haul.
Wolf said
They wanted 1, 2, 3 this year and 1,2 next year.
Obviously that’s way too much to give up for a team that has a ton of holes. Ultimately the Giants made the right choice and just took the BPA on their board at 6.
But Schoen never really countered as best as I could tell. It wasn’t a serious negotiation
If the guy needs a fire lit under him in year 6 then they really did a poor job scouting him.
And re-signing him... ;)
It's just amazing that the Daniel Jones Experience enters year six. This is truly one of the most bizarre things I've seen in professional team sports...