Art Stapleton @art_stapleton
Have not seen Episode 4 of Hard Knocks, but sounds like walk-up and day of the NFL Draft is covered, right up until the start of the draft.
Joe Schoen teased a draft day meeting with John Mara, Steve Tisch and Brian Daboll on
@PSchrags
HK podcast.
Next week's finale, presumably, will be the draft and some spring wrap-up.
A player on notice.....stepping up
Watching that episode I had the sense Schoen never made an offer to
New England b/c they weren’t willing to move down unless it was for an insane haul.
Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, Marvin Harrison, Torrey Holt didn’t either. It’s not a requirement to be a stud receiver.
I always have an issue with that since each draft is independent of the priors. And we know teams get so desperate for QBs they over-draft them. So, it's a fun exercise, but not a precise statistical evaluation.
That segment particularly bothered me and I'm not sure if it was HBO or the Football Giants that determined which QBs were hits and which were misses. Bridgewater was a hit for a while until that devastating leg injury. Watson was a miss?
I'm not a scout or NFL exec, but I truly believe in evaluating an individual. Fuck trends. Evaluate the player. If you believe he's a franchise QB and have that conviction, that's all that matters. I don't care if the last 10 QBs were busts.
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On Jones echo what is being said here.
Watching that episode I had the sense Schoen never made an offer to
New England b/c they weren’t willing to move down unless it was for an insane haul.
Jerry Rice, Larry Fitzgerald, Marvin Harrison, Torrey Holt didn’t either. It’s not a requirement to be a stud receiver.
It’s not a requirement but it is important to Daboll, all else being equal.
- I agree the Pats weren’t serious about a trade unless Schoen made an over the top offer. The truth is, if a guy ends up being elite, an over the top offer is still worth it. I can see why some of you guys are making the case Schoen missed his shot at QB this year. I don’t know if it will end up being the right call or not, we’ll see
- from what they’ve shown, Daboll heavily influenced the Nabers pick. They know his personality may be a handful, but Daboll seems to like that about him
- I was also surprised they made no mention of JJ McCarthy. Their eval clearly had him a level below the other guys. Again, we’ll see
- Jones may not like all that went on, but he’s been gifted another year with a hopefully better OL and stud WR drafted. Even if he’s playing for another job elsewhere next season, he’s getting another shot to earn it many guys never get
- brief Mike Kafka appearance, but it really stands out they’re not showing him ask questions in any of the player interviews
- nothing about Mara bothered me tonight. He’s involved, but let Schoen make the call. I also agree the brief clips McDonnell and Chris Mara are painfully forced
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In comment 16558148 RCPhoenix said:
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On Jones echo what is being said here.
Watching that episode I had the sense Schoen never made an offer to
New England b/c they weren’t willing to move down unless it was for an insane haul.
Wolf said
They wanted 1, 2, 3 this year and 1,2 next year.
Obviously that’s way too much to give up for a team that has a ton of holes. Ultimately the Giants made the right choice and just took the BPA on their board at 6.
But Schoen never really countered as best as I could tell. It wasn’t a serious negotiation
The Patriots didn’t have a QB on their roster and needed to come out with one on this draft. Unless they were blown away they weren’t going to trade out of that 3rd pick. Obviously Schoen was willing to give up 6 this year, 1 next year and more, but it wasn’t enough for the Patriots. You can’t make a trade if the other team isn’t budging.
Scratch that. It seems like both the Jets wanted to move up (we don't know what they were offering) AND the Vikings wanted to move up (and were offering 11 and 23).
Haha, I thought the same thing. WTF was that? Fuck Saquon.
But Schoen never really countered as best as I could tell. It wasn’t a serious negotiation
Well, we'll never know for sure. Did Schoen go with a true BAFO?
It seemed to me Schoen was fishing for a bargain deal. And when Wolf indicated that he wanted to be "wowed", Schoen essentially shifted to Plan Jones.
If DJ was his guy the family would be going to bat for him. Instead of Carson reminding taking the position that he may regret sticking with Jones.
I don’t know how people don’t understand how designed this is to make it look like Mara stays out of it.
If he could we wouldn’t be overpaying QB who could be gone if we made the obvious choice and franchised.
Mara knows his scapegoating is losing its effectiveness. He could buy himself another scapegoat if he shows everyone how “hands off” he is.
He said he trusted Ernie on Eli. But JS gives him palpitations. I wonder what that is?
That segment particularly bothered me and I'm not sure if it was HBO or the Football Giants that determined which QBs were hits and which were misses. Bridgewater was a hit for a while until that devastating leg injury. Watson was a miss?
I'm not a scout or NFL exec, but I truly believe in evaluating an individual. Fuck trends. Evaluate the player. If you believe he's a franchise QB and have that conviction, that's all that matters. I don't care if the last 10 QBs were busts.
Totally agree. It's not the best look. Lazy thing, IMV...
A player on notice.....stepping up
Phrase it how you want…you are suggesting this will be added motivation for Jones this year. The question stands…why has the motivation not hit that level yet? Why hasn’t Jones’ effort and intensity hit 100% yet?
I’ll answer my own question. I think Jones has given 100% his whole career. I think we have all seen everything he has to give. I hope I am wrong, but I see no evidence I am wrong.
“So last two years you’ve drafted 4 ol’s and signed a couple more fa’s. This year you’ve signed 5 more fa ol’s, do you think you might find somebody who can play at some point???”
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Giants tried
Didn’t he say 1, 2 and 3 this year, 1 and 2 next year?
Who here would have done that for Maye?
I'm pretty sure that right after Wolf said that, he added, "I'm exaggerating obviously..." so presumably the Pats would have taken less.
I don’t get that feeling at all. If we have a terrible season and Schoen’s draft picks don’t progress, both Schoen and Daboll will be fired. The roster isn’t a ton better than when they took the job 3 years, 2.5 years ago.
“So last two years you’ve drafted 4 ol’s and signed a couple more fa’s. This year you’ve signed 5 more fa ol’s, do you think you might find somebody who can play at some point???”
Whether it's editing or not, everything is pretty cordial. You won't see anyone chewing out anyone or John Mara interrogating Joe Schoen.
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season, unless the wheels REALLY, REALLY fall off, Daboll and Schoen are going to be retained and given the opportunity to draft their QB of the future in 2025.
I don’t get that feeling at all. If we have a terrible season and Schoen’s draft picks don’t progress, both Schoen and Daboll will be fired. The roster isn’t a ton better than when they took the job 3 years, 2.5 years ago.
I think everyone realizes DJ's a huge problem. We tried to replace him, but unfortunately it didn't come to fruition.
But yes, the reason wny DJ is still on the roster is because he was given an exorbitant extension by Schoen.
And for all those people saying Mara makes the decisions, and not Schoen, that is NOT what is happening here. If anything, he gives Schoen way too much of a leash.
And for all those people saying Mara makes the decisions, and not Schoen, that is NOT what is happening here. If anything, he gives Schoen way too much of a leash.
More Mara, less Schoen? Ummm....
I’m really glad the trades down didn’t end up in play. A little surprised there didn’t seem to be much consideration of alt. Guess we don’t need to pay attention to those who reported he was the trade up target anymore.
And even if their screen times were indicative of how they behaved all the time, haven't you ever worked with people with different types of personalities before? I know some people who come across as quiet but are absolute killers at their jobs.
People talk about Mara interfering. He didn't interfere, he outright laid hands on. He re-stated his position to Bowen, who seemed to welcome the input.He encouraged Schoen to go for it if he was a true believer, and believed that one of them was worth the kind of trade they made for Eli, and bottom line, Schoen didn't really feel that way about any of them, but would have jumped on a chance for an upgrade at QB if the price was right, it wasn't, never even seemed close. JS did his due dilligence. Mara's input was wise. Further, he was the last one to speak, and made it clear if Nabers or Harrison was there, he wanted Nabers, and that's what they did.
It's the one day a year that Mara, in my opinion, is supposed to have real input on team composition, he definitely did, it was appropriate, and held schoen accountable for his reasoning behind his approach, and then stood behind it. I actually thought it was an example of Mara doing the job he is supposed to without overstepping schoens prerogative.
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to the Giants for releasing what they did. There was a ton of unnecessary filler in this show, but the substantive stuff was much more revealing than I expected.
The end where Schoen walked Mara and Tisch through the scenarios was really good. Surprised we got that level of detail.
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went through the last ten years of first round QBs drafted and the "hit" rate.
I always have an issue with that since each draft is independent of the priors. And we know teams get so desperate for QBs they over-draft them. So, it's a fun exercise, but not a precise statistical evaluation.
That segment particularly bothered me and I'm not sure if it was HBO or the Football Giants that determined which QBs were hits and which were misses. Bridgewater was a hit for a while until that devastating leg injury. Watson was a miss?
I'm not a scout or NFL exec, but I truly believe in evaluating an individual. Fuck trends. Evaluate the player. If you believe he's a franchise QB and have that conviction, that's all that matters. I don't care if the last 10 QBs were busts.
I agree with this completely. I find myself really hoping they did that for the benefit of HBO and not as a real exercise. I'm finding that to be the case often as I watch this show.
I can't believe they were willing to trade up for Maye but clearly didn't even consider one of the other three QBs. Not just that...if they'd traded down to 9 they would have taken a fucking tight end over one of the quarterbacks.
"A weapon for Daniel" is SO FUCKING DEPRESSING.
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...doesn't sound like an endorsement to me.
No. “Rolling with Daniel” was very clearly Plan B for 2024. That gives me some hope.
I thought that too. Seemed disrespectful to the players he was talking to.
Watching that episode I had the sense Schoen never made an offer to
New England b/c they weren’t willing to move down unless it was for an insane haul.
I'm fairly certain Schoen and Daboll are safe even if this year is a disaster because they would have finally proved they did everything they could to support Jones.
For Judge....whatever you do...."do not turn over ball"....so he played ultra conservative.
I think watching show.....
He is not paid to hand the ball to the RB.
Having Dawg
I feel
Jones will be a more aggressive player coming out of it......
And if anyone gets their feelings hurt.....they are in the wrong business.
It sounds like a business decision
I hope Jones will take it as such....and prove everyone wrong.
They drafted their top (non-QB) player in draft.
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th picks were all noted as players that the Giants showed interest and seemed impressed....granted could also just be good editing.
Hopefully, the FA haul and new OL coach will "fix" OL.
The defense has enough raw talent to become solid.
Adding a stud WR to the top of the WRs.....should make all of them better.
So....it will go as far as the QB takes us!
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Coach Daboll... get your feet off of the coffee table and sit up.
I thought that too. Seemed disrespectful to the players he was talking to.
It really was a small thing but I am a little old school. Coughlin probably was yelling at the tv if he watched the episode.
My thought was if we say any of the players do that in the interviews with the coach there would be a whole thread about it but we are all in a place of liking Daboll. If the team ever falls apart for being undisciplined and not professional, this image will come back to be the poster.
Once again. Something small. I don’t really care too much, but was strange and it does send some message to the players—the message could be, just be your self and win and we don’t care about some of this social/business protocol.
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And to be honest.....I think this will push the best out of Jones.
Get OL fixed.....and it sure seems like they are not just going to hope for the young guys to develop. They have options.
Could be just editing.....but the top 4 picks were all identified as targets.....so it comes across as a very solid draft.
If the guy needs a fire lit under him in year 6 then they really did a poor job scouting him.
you do realize who scouted and drafted him....
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In comment 16558013 bw in dc said:
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went through the last ten years of first round QBs drafted and the "hit" rate.
I always have an issue with that since each draft is independent of the priors. And we know teams get so desperate for QBs they over-draft them. So, it's a fun exercise, but not a precise statistical evaluation.
That segment particularly bothered me and I'm not sure if it was HBO or the Football Giants that determined which QBs were hits and which were misses. Bridgewater was a hit for a while until that devastating leg injury. Watson was a miss?
I'm not a scout or NFL exec, but I truly believe in evaluating an individual. Fuck trends. Evaluate the player. If you believe he's a franchise QB and have that conviction, that's all that matters. I don't care if the last 10 QBs were busts.
I agree with this completely. I find myself really hoping they did that for the benefit of HBO and not as a real exercise. I'm finding that to be the case often as I watch this show.
I can't believe they were willing to trade up for Maye but clearly didn't even consider one of the other three QBs. Not just that...if they'd traded down to 9 they would have taken a fucking tight end over one of the quarterbacks.
"A weapon for Daniel" is SO FUCKING DEPRESSING.
We all know your hell bent on a QB every time until we get it right but I don’t think it’s smart to take a QB you don’t even believe in and clearly they didn’t believe in the guys outside the top 3.
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went through the last ten years of first round QBs drafted and the "hit" rate.
I always have an issue with that since each draft is independent of the priors. And we know teams get so desperate for QBs they over-draft them. So, it's a fun exercise, but not a precise statistical evaluation.
That segment particularly bothered me and I'm not sure if it was HBO or the Football Giants that determined which QBs were hits and which were misses. Bridgewater was a hit for a while until that devastating leg injury. Watson was a miss?
I'm not a scout or NFL exec, but I truly believe in evaluating an individual. Fuck trends. Evaluate the player. If you believe he's a franchise QB and have that conviction, that's all that matters. I don't care if the last 10 QBs were busts.
They didnt say they were misses, they said who left the team they were drafted by. Watch it again.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
In these threads I've ridiculed Mara as coming across as an out of it grandpa wandering through the facility and I joked at the notion he was controlling things. I have to say he came across the best he has so far in this episode. I thought the convo he had with Brandon Brown about the Eli trade and having the conviction in a QB was telling. I did think Brown was a little awkward and distant during it but that may have been because of the tv cameras. Mara was the prototypical supportive owner offering sage advice when prompted throughout the draft process. This episode obviously drove home the concept that this is Schoen's team and he is in charge. The way he can run through all these possible draft scenarios and the contingent move-ups/downs really gave me confidence that he knows what he is doing. It's just a matter of making the right calls on personnel. He's had some hits and some crucial misses. Time will tell. He'll get another year or 2 almost guaranteed. I like Daboll a lot but he sends off some serious class clown vibes and they are all having a lot of fun with it, but another lousy year and it could really cost him.
We all know your hell bent on a QB every time until we get it right but I don’t think it’s smart to take a QB you don’t even believe in and clearly they didn’t believe in the guys outside the top 3.
Said another way, the believed in Jones more than Penix, McCarthy, and Nix. A conclusion like that may come back and haunt this organization for many, many years if Jones continues to be Jones and any of those three pop.
Schoen's son gave his dad great advice - go get the QB.
Think it was just to make the players feel loose and not feel like an interview situation.
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In comment 16558013 bw in dc said:
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went through the last ten years of first round QBs drafted and the "hit" rate.
I always have an issue with that since each draft is independent of the priors. And we know teams get so desperate for QBs they over-draft them. So, it's a fun exercise, but not a precise statistical evaluation.
That segment particularly bothered me and I'm not sure if it was HBO or the Football Giants that determined which QBs were hits and which were misses. Bridgewater was a hit for a while until that devastating leg injury. Watson was a miss?
I'm not a scout or NFL exec, but I truly believe in evaluating an individual. Fuck trends. Evaluate the player. If you believe he's a franchise QB and have that conviction, that's all that matters. I don't care if the last 10 QBs were busts.
I agree with this completely. I find myself really hoping they did that for the benefit of HBO and not as a real exercise. I'm finding that to be the case often as I watch this show.
I can't believe they were willing to trade up for Maye but clearly didn't even consider one of the other three QBs. Not just that...if they'd traded down to 9 they would have taken a fucking tight end over one of the quarterbacks.
"A weapon for Daniel" is SO FUCKING DEPRESSING.
I agree Terps. Plan A was extreme longshot trade up/hope one of the top 3 makes a surprise pick and plan b was run it back with Jones.
There was no in-between?
No conviction when asked his opinion.