Art Stapleton @art_stapleton
Have not seen Episode 4 of Hard Knocks, but sounds like walk-up and day of the NFL Draft is covered, right up until the start of the draft.
Joe Schoen teased a draft day meeting with John Mara, Steve Tisch and Brian Daboll on
@PSchrags
HK podcast.
Next week's finale, presumably, will be the draft and some spring wrap-up.
And for all those people saying Mara makes the decisions, and not Schoen, that is NOT what is happening here. If anything, he gives Schoen way too much of a leash.
I agree that Schoen is running the show. But I don't think it's too much of a leash. He needs to have the freedom to make his own decisions.
Now, whether he is the right guy to do that remains to be seen.
He wasn't even a thought in the top 10 for the Giants.
The Giants obviously had their top 3 QBs the same as everyone with a big gap between them and the next QB.
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We all know your hell bent on a QB every time until we get it right but I don’t think it’s smart to take a QB you don’t even believe in and clearly they didn’t believe in the guys outside the top 3.
Said another way, the believed in Jones more than Penix, McCarthy, and Nix. A conclusion like that may come back and haunt this organization for many, many years if Jones continues to be Jones and any of those three pop.
Schoen's son gave his dad great advice - go get the QB.
Maybe, but I doubt it. While I was in the "just get a QB" camp for a while, I can see why that is not a smart thing. Nabers is virtually a sure thing(as were Harrison and Odunze). McCarthy, Nix and Penix were viewed a step below.
They obviously felt Williams, Daniels and Maye were worth the juice. The rest were not top ten players. I think that was Daboll's point on the last ten drafts with QBs segment.
I don't believe in Jones. But I do believe in Nabers.
Shouldnt have won meaningless games.
Maybe, but I doubt it. While I was in the "just get a QB" camp for a while, I can see why that is not a smart thing. Nabers is virtually a sure thing(as were Harrison and Odunze). McCarthy, Nix and Penix were viewed a step below.
They obviously felt Williams, Daniels and Maye were worth the juice. The rest were not top ten players. I think that was Daboll's point on the last ten drafts with QBs segment.
I don't believe in Jones. But I do believe in Nabers.
I like Daboll, but his exercise of looking at past drafts as an indicator of future results for QBs was frankly dumb. And embarrassing. The talent in each draft is independent of any prior draft. I really hope Schoen doesn't think similarly.
Keep this in mind, too. I'm fairly sure I have this right in that WR is the biggest bust position in the first round of the draft. So, I would be very careful calling Nabers a sure thing.
I expect the OL and DL to be improved. They have the majority of the pieces in place now. Jones has this year to produce consistent wins or we move on in 2025 I also noted the vast majority of Scouts changed since the show " finding Giants" Schoen is running things long term we are on the right track
That scene felt exactly like when he pulled up the Tennessee defensive stats.
I put more prep into my BBI threads than Daboll is doing for the cameras.
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even more depressing that we didn't draft a QB.
And for all those people saying Mara makes the decisions, and not Schoen, that is NOT what is happening here. If anything, he gives Schoen way too much of a leash.
More Mara, less Schoen? Ummm....
That doesn't mean I want Mara making more in charge, more-so that Schoen needs to step it up alittle. Not super-impressed thus far.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
+1. I thoroughly enjoyed Schoen and Daboll sitting with ownership right before the draft and Schoen laying out all the scenarios with what they could do and who they could trade with depending on who came off the board at respective picks. Liked Daboll's input he got from Saban about Nabers and Bowers being major matchup issues for Bama when they played them.
My impression of Schoen is pretty strong, he has good leadership qualities. Definitely relies on his inner circle for input, but he is firm with his decisions. GM is definitely a position where paralysis by analysis can lead to indecision.
Shouldnt have won meaningless games.
Players will never lose on purpose.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
It's not drafting a QB just to draft a QB. Those three are talented players that were drafted in the top twelve...one by a team that just paid Cousins, and the other two by teams with head coaches that know their QBs.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
And Daboll with the feet up and apparently the uncontrolled temper. I'm not impressed with him at all. He may be a personification of the Peter principle.
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Clearly they were looking to get at QB. Yes Wolf said, 1,2,3 and 1,2 - I am exaggerating...also clear the Wolf wanted a Qb and wasn't moving unless it was near a Rickey Wilson deal.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
It's not drafting a QB just to draft a QB. Those three are talented players that were drafted in the top twelve...one by a team that just paid Cousins, and the other two by teams with head coaches that know their QBs.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
They had already decided they weren't going to mortgage multiple future first rd picks on moving up for a QB. The objective of the offseason for offense was to get some OL protection and another playmaker at WR.
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Clearly they were looking to get at QB. Yes Wolf said, 1,2,3 and 1,2 - I am exaggerating...also clear the Wolf wanted a Qb and wasn't moving unless it was near a Rickey Wilson deal.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
It's not drafting a QB just to draft a QB. Those three are talented players that were drafted in the top twelve...one by a team that just paid Cousins, and the other two by teams with head coaches that know their QBs.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
You couldn't believe your eyes even after they went through the list of first round qbs the last 10 years?
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We all know your hell bent on a QB every time until we get it right but I don’t think it’s smart to take a QB you don’t even believe in and clearly they didn’t believe in the guys outside the top 3.
Said another way, the believed in Jones more than Penix, McCarthy, and Nix. A conclusion like that may come back and haunt this organization for many, many years if Jones continues to be Jones and any of those three pop.
Schoen's son gave his dad great advice - go get the QB.
At the end of the day, based on comments (I'll be watching tonight) I like that they had conviction on the WR and the QBs and they stuck to their board rather than reach (remember the last #6?).
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In comment 16558261 section125 said:
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Clearly they were looking to get at QB. Yes Wolf said, 1,2,3 and 1,2 - I am exaggerating...also clear the Wolf wanted a Qb and wasn't moving unless it was near a Rickey Wilson deal.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
It's not drafting a QB just to draft a QB. Those three are talented players that were drafted in the top twelve...one by a team that just paid Cousins, and the other two by teams with head coaches that know their QBs.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
They had already decided they weren't going to mortgage multiple future first rd picks on moving up for a QB. The objective of the offseason for offense was to get some OL protection and another playmaker at WR.
They didn't need to trade anything to get a QB that was on a par with (I'd argue better than) Drake Maye. If they had Maye worth trading the 2025 first rounder for but the other three not even with drafting at 9 after a trade down...I'd ask them what the hell they were watching on college football Saturdays. That is an enormous gap between Maye and the other three.
You couldn't believe your eyes even after they went through the list of first round qbs the last 10 years?
I couldn't believe my eyes that a professional football team would waste five minutes on such an exercise. I have to believe that was done at the behest of HBO - it was that stupid.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
I think Bowers is going to be one helluva a player, but that did stand out.
I wonder if Schoen had a first round grade on any of the "next three QBs".
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We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
I think Bowers is going to be one helluva a player, but that did stand out.
I wonder if Schoen had a first round grade on any of the "next three QBs".
Daboll liked Jaylen Daniels alot.
They didn't need to trade anything to get a QB that was on a par with (I'd argue better than) Drake Maye. If they had Maye worth trading the 2025 first rounder for but the other three not even with drafting at 9 after a trade down...I'd ask them what the hell they were watching on college football Saturdays. That is an enormous gap between Maye and the other three.
some real hard hitting analysis there from the same nostradamous that claimed the only reason they didnt draft malik willis at 5 was the color of skin, and still argues passing on him was a mistake even though he's 2 years in without a passing td.
but hey, at least we can now see there's no more racism in the decision making and jayden daniels wasnt off their board. progress!
Daboll has plenty of history helping quarterbacks improve their play, but Schoen really has no history showing he's a good evaluator of quarterback talent. That's the big problem.
The risk in trading up for Eli was colossal - not only would they have to trade the picks, but they had to pay Eli one of the biggest contracts in the league right off the bat. They were also passing on two QBs that were arguably (and proved to be) just as good.
Trading up for Maye (if they were really even trying to) isn't comparable at all.
Daboll has plenty of history helping quarterbacks improve their play, but Schoen really has no history showing he's a good evaluator of quarterback talent. That's the big problem.
i am not arguing in support of schoen here, but isn't this a pretty big misnomer? who has that experience other than andy reid and maybe sean payton? belichick is the best ever and his hit rate isnt even that great. saban wasnt very good at it until kiffin and for decades he had his pick of basically any HS prospects in the country (w/ no need of draft picks).
- Loved the approach to the draft and surprised/pleased Groh had Nabers as the top receiver. Schoen's leading Mara and Tisch through the multi-variate strategy was fantastic. The trade up Schoen offered to NE for Maye was fair. Anything more, and the risk/reward would have been off base. But it CLEARLY demonstrates the strong desire to go get a quarterback to replace DJ. Nix and JJM were clearly not top ten graded players - that was clear when Schoen gave his list of four to his daughter. Penix, I believe, was off their board because of the injury history/risk. The draft played out as expected and the Giants made the right choice in Nabers.
- I actually found myself feeling sorry for Mara watching this. He has clearly lost any credibility given his decade of bad decisions, but his love for the people and franchise are self-evident. Telling stories to Brandon Brown about the glory days and how great Ernie Accorsi was in going for Eli, leads me to believe that he does have the self-awareness to recognize his own limitations and probably feels let down by the people he has unfortunately surrounded himself with since Accorsi was here. Most of whom didn't have the talent/moxie to save him from himself. Maybe Schoen has begun to move the needle?
- Clearly, Schoen is not thrilled with DJ, which leads me to believe again that he was just appeasing Mara last year with that disastrous contract. Daboll's love of Jayden Daniels was crystal clear and was clearly in contrast with his sigh of acceptance that the team would be rolling it back with Daniel. And can we stop with the idiotic coddling of DJ? Opening this program by walking on egg shells explaining why they might have to take a quarterback? Is this kid as blind as he is bad? For God's sake - the guy is the fifth highest cap hit in the NFL this year and arguably the worst quarterback ever to play the position in the NFL. Many on this thread believe that this will get him motivated, but naturally Daniel's reaction was exactly the opposite - "I'm not fired up about it!" Good lord, the DJ era can't end fast enough.
- Hannah Burnett will soon be a media superstar and be a regular NFL analyst on ESPN or the NFL Network. Her combination of beauty, personality and savvy as to NFL scouting is extraordinary. I would say she might become the first female NFL GM, but my guess is she will make a fortune in front of the camera in sports media.
Schoen is 0/1 in making high resource decisions at quarterback as the principal decision maker. It's a matter of both experience and one big mistake.
In the context of whether JJM, Penix, or Nix have the upside to be good starting quarterbacks, I don't think we have enough information to believe Schoen is an authority in the space.
those scenes where they put all the visiting prospects through the mental aspects of the offense and sight adjustments etc, especially the 3 WR in the same room together, was just gold.
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Clearly they were looking to get at QB. Yes Wolf said, 1,2,3 and 1,2 - I am exaggerating...also clear the Wolf wanted a Qb and wasn't moving unless it was near a Rickey Wilson deal.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
It's not drafting a QB just to draft a QB. Those three are talented players that were drafted in the top twelve...one by a team that just paid Cousins, and the other two by teams with head coaches that know their QBs.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
Being drafted in the Top 12 does not mean one is a talented QB. The game is littered with guys like Cade McNown, Blaine Gabbert, Daniel Jones, etc. Sean Payton had Drew Brees who was a Pro Bowler and a top 5 AP OPOY before he came to New Orleans. He has not drafted a QB who has proven to be an NFL caliber starter. What has O'Connell with evaluating rookie QB's? Minnesota has been horrible with drafting since Kwesi and he came on board. Atlanta, don't even get me started with that clusterf**k.
These are not guys we passed on who then slipped into rounds 2 and 3. No, offensive minds like Kevin O'Connell and Sean Payton and then a team that had just signed Kirk Cousins took each one of these guys just about right after our selection.
I love Nabers as a player, I don't think this has to do with him. However, I'm fairly certain that one of Nix, Penix or McCarthy is going to be a big time player but obviously for our sake I now hope I'm wrong about that.
And it's way more complex than just scouting. It's scouting, plus understanding the quality of your staff's development capabilities, and then building a roster where the quarterback is asked to do a job proportional to his upside.
Correct.
those scenes where they put all the visiting prospects through the mental aspects of the offense and sight adjustments etc, especially the 3 WR in the same room together, was just gold.
That was my favorite part, before the draft Groh just snap answered that Nabers was his favorite even over MHJ. There were rumblings that some evaluators and coacheshad Nabers at 1 and Groh was apparently one. It makes sense from the coaching perspective, they want the raw talent and upside. It may be confirmation bias as well because I thought Nabers would be the WR that Daboll would gravitate to most before the draft but I get the sense he favored Nabers as well.
I don't blame them for skipping on a QB at 6. What I do find curious is the pipeline. Lock is an abomination, and DeVito has long road ahead of him to be a reliable pinch hitter.
That sounds familiar, like 2018.
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can't force another AB at #6, especially when a HoF talent at a position of extreme need had grabbed their souls.
That sounds familiar, like 2018.
The difference is a stud WR is important for doing well in the NFL these days. A stud RB does not move the needle as you can get better production from RB by committee for a lot less money.
It's just going to be in another year or two, when the Giants finally get a guy under center who is both durable and talented enough.
And it's way more complex than just scouting. It's scouting, plus understanding the quality of your staff's development capabilities, and then building a roster where the quarterback is asked to do a job proportional to his upside.
i think assigning it to schoen is wrong. the qb decisions start with daboll, just as those qb combine interviews and whiteboard sessions started with him. his track record is not incomplete it's the best part of his resume. he has won games and gotten the best out of a lot of different qbs. jordan love is about to get $200m+ and he beat him with tommy devito. almost beat philly with davis freaking webb. may have beaten josh allen with tyrod freaking taylor if taylor doesnt call a moronic audible on the goaline.
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can't force another AB at #6, especially when a HoF talent at a position of extreme need had grabbed their souls.
At least they got the QB evals correct in 2018.
That sounds familiar, like 2018.
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can't force another AB at #6, especially when a HoF talent at a position of extreme need had grabbed their souls.
That sounds familiar, like 2018.
At least they got the QB evals correct in 2018.
JS chose not to use the NEFT with Jones. He had another chance this draft and chose MN's. TBD if that was the right move. As long as the season is fairly successful he will have a chance to address the QB again if needed imv.
This ^
And it's way more complex than just scouting. It's scouting, plus understanding the quality of your staff's development capabilities, and then building a roster where the quarterback is asked to do a job proportional to his upside.
i think assigning it to schoen is wrong. the qb decisions start with daboll, just as those qb combine interviews and whiteboard sessions started with him. his track record is not incomplete it's the best part of his resume. he has won games and gotten the best out of a lot of different qbs. jordan love is about to get $200m+ and he beat him with tommy devito. almost beat philly with davis freaking webb. may have beaten josh allen with tyrod freaking taylor if taylor doesnt call a moronic audible on the goaline.
I have zero misgivings about Daboll's ability to assess talent and develop quarterbacks.
I think you underestimate what part Schoen plays in the ultimate decision to acquire and retain the quarterbacks who play for Daboll.
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can't force another AB at #6, especially when a HoF talent at a position of extreme need had grabbed their souls.
I don't blame them for skipping on a QB at 6. What I do find curious is the pipeline. Lock is an abomination, and DeVito has long road ahead of him to be a reliable pinch hitter.
Agreed, and this is what happens when you blow evals on a Jones.
it's BCI. big consternation interactive.
I think you can conclude that they didn't view QB as an "extreme need".
Sure, they were willing to upgrade at the right price, but they weren't desperate. Unfortunately.
The mantra used by Schoen throughout this series has been Jones is a health risk. But, as far as I can tell, not really a risk as a talent. They believe in his talent.
If that is true, I find that very troubling.