Art Stapleton @art_stapleton
Have not seen Episode 4 of Hard Knocks, but sounds like walk-up and day of the NFL Draft is covered, right up until the start of the draft.
Joe Schoen teased a draft day meeting with John Mara, Steve Tisch and Brian Daboll on
@PSchrags
HK podcast.
Next week's finale, presumably, will be the draft and some spring wrap-up.
[quote] In comment 16558318 Costy16 said:
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In comment 16558312 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16558261 section125 said:
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Clearly they were looking to get at QB. Yes Wolf said, 1,2,3 and 1,2 - I am exaggerating...also clear the Wolf wanted a Qb and wasn't moving unless it was near a Rickey Wilson deal.
Also obvious Nabers was the plan at 6.
Going through the expected scenarios with the owners was excellent and like a lot of you Bowers being on the table at 9 was "shocking" or a surprise.
I think the session with the QBs drafted in the last 10 was just Daboll brain storming and showing that just drafting a QB does not mean they pan out. So to Terps dismay, they were not going to draft a QB to draft a QB. Williams, Daniels or Maye, yes. Anyone else, no.
There was a lot more, but this was a great episode.
It's not drafting a QB just to draft a QB. Those three are talented players that were drafted in the top twelve...one by a team that just paid Cousins, and the other two by teams with head coaches that know their QBs.
We were going to draft a TE at 9 over one of those 3 QBs? I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that.
They had already decided they weren't going to mortgage multiple future first rd picks on moving up for a QB. The objective of the offseason for offense was to get some OL protection and another playmaker at WR.
They didn't need to trade anything to get a QB that was on a par with (I'd argue better than) Drake Maye. If they had Maye worth trading the 2025 first rounder for but the other three not even with drafting at 9 after a trade down...I'd ask them what the hell they were watching on college football Saturdays. That is an enormous gap between Maye and the other three. [/quote It's interesting you say that when it's clear THEY didn't think any of the next 3 QBs were "on a par" with Maye.
I'll be interested to see how this grand plan unfolds.
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Why not? The Giants are the test case for why you CAN move on after two years.
Isn't this exactly what the Jets have done during the Giants/Jones era, twice? Draft Darnold, didn't work out so they moved on. Repeated with Zach Wilson. And somehow, many ppl in the league and media see the Jets as potential to win the AFC East and make a playoff push
I
Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
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In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Why not? The Giants are the test case for why you CAN move on after two years.
Isn't this exactly what the Jets have done during the Giants/Jones era, twice? Draft Darnold, didn't work out so they moved on. Repeated with Zach Wilson. And somehow, many ppl in the league and media see the Jets as potential to win the AFC East and make a playoff push
I
Each was given 3 years and they are now hoping a 40 yr old QB who did not last 4 plays last yr gets them across the finish line.
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Begging? He was barely audible.
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In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
The Steelers just did with Kenny Pickett. The Cardinals obviously did with Rosen.
It was clear as day after two years that Jones wasn't any good. It's been three years since that time, zero QBs drafted.
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In comment 16558868 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
The Steelers just did with Kenny Pickett. The Cardinals obviously did with Rosen.
It was clear as day after two years that Jones wasn't any good. It's been three years since that time, zero QBs drafted.
I won’t argue with this. But I will argue that they feel Jones + 2025 class > McCarthy, Penix, & Nix or mortgaging the future for Maye whom there was not consensus on anyway. I think the only QB they really liked and would stretch for was Daniels and he was not available. I’ve never liked DJ and would not have paid him, but in true Giants fashion, he leads them to the playoffs, Saquon refuses the same deal he accepts a year later, DJ predictably sucks, gets hurt and here we are. I think a yr from now the Giants will in fact have a new QB named either Carson or Quinn.
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In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Chicago waited three years on Fields.
Mac Jones got three years with the Pats, but he was so bad in year two that the Pats should have cut ties then...
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In comment 16558868 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Trey Lance, Mac Jones... I can't think of a single bad quarterback who isn't dealt after a very short period of time. Add in guys who were gone before a second contract and the list explodes - Trubisky, Mayfield, Mariota, Winston, etc. On every level, the initial selection, the endless evaluation and ultimately DJ's second contract has been an absolute abomination of managerial judgment by this franchise.
Why not offer NE #6, 2024 second, 2024 third, 2025 first & a 2025 second? Make Wolf reconsider.
When you plug in the names over the last few years at those draft slots, it's not that expensive. Now you've got Maye and you go from there.
Not sure how they plan to acquire their QB.
Why not offer NE #6, 2024 second, 2024 third, 2025 first & a 2025 second? Make Wolf reconsider.
When you plug in the names over the last few years at those draft slots, it's not that expensive. Now you've got Maye and you go from there.
Not sure how they plan to acquire their QB.
I don't think there was any way NE was trading that pick for any draft compensation. Would we have done so if we had that pick there? Absolutely not. The entire JJM subterfuge I believe was just an attempt to try to get NE to trade back. Kraft didn't buy it.
That has been the biggest change to come from the 2011 CBA that instituted a rookie wage scale. And like previous big changes to the league (the 1970 merger, 1994 FA & the salary cap), they have been followed by periods of Giants ineptitude.
If we are to take Hard Knocks seriously, what we see is an organization whose decisions are largely informed by its own past. So this current era of ineptitude makes sense.
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In comment 16558880 Bernie said:
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In comment 16558868 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16558762 Bernie said:
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Define quickly. They are high first round picks, you can’t move on after 2 years?
Chargers knew about Herbert after a year. Cincinnati knew about Burrow after year two. Ravens knew after year two with LJax. Buffalo knew after year two with Allen. Packers and Texans knew after one year of Stroud and Love starting, respectively.
Thus, I would say it seems reasonable to know after two seasons.
Right, easy to point to the success stories after 2 yrs. Who moved on after 2 yrs after mediocre play? Notwithstanding my previous post re: the Jets, they did try to move on after 2 yrs of Wilson. Who else?
Arizona with Rosen, Chicago with Fields.
Trey Lance, Mac Jones... I can't think of a single bad quarterback who isn't dealt after a very short period of time. Add in guys who were gone before a second contract and the list explodes - Trubisky, Mayfield, Mariota, Winston, etc. On every level, the initial selection, the endless evaluation and ultimately DJ's second contract has been an absolute abomination of managerial judgment by this franchise.
The Cardinals moved on because they had the 1st pick and Kingsbury loved Kyler. Lance was the starter, suffered a season ending injury and Purdy killed it. All other teams gave at least 3 years before moving on and that was my original point made earlier. The mistakes with DJ were drafting him in the first place, not picking up the 5th yr option after deciding to give him a 4th yr, and then giving the 2nd contract. Other than Pickett, the 2 yr argument with any 1st round QB does not hold water from a pure evaluation perspective.
The whole NFL world was abuzz with gossip Wolf wasn't the guy in New England. I'm sure Schoen knew that.
I wanted to hear Schoen say: I hear what you're saying, so let me make you an official offer and I give you my word it's good up until the time you turn in the envelope. You don't have to answer right now. My first and second this year, my first and second next year.
That ways Wolf can bring it back to his masters and they either counter or reject.
That has been the biggest change to come from the 2011 CBA that instituted a rookie wage scale. And like previous big changes to the league (the 1970 merger, 1994 FA & the salary cap), they have been followed by periods of Giants ineptitude.
If we are to take Hard Knocks seriously, what we see is an organization whose decisions are largely informed by its own past. So this current era of ineptitude makes sense.
This is an insightful observation. Big changes to the league have been met very sluggishly by this franchise at a time when responsiveness to the changing dynamics of the game could not be a more important managerial core competency.
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Schoen says they are within striking distance. Schoen and Brown say they don't plan to be picking here again. They clearly like Maye. Wolf didn't sound confident in the conversation with Schoen, he left the door open.
The whole NFL world was abuzz with gossip Wolf wasn't the guy in New England. I'm sure Schoen knew that.
I wanted to hear Schoen say: I hear what you're saying, so let me make you an official offer and I give you my word it's good up until the time you turn in the envelope. You don't have to answer right now. My first and second this year, my first and second next year.
That ways Wolf can bring it back to his masters and they either counter or reject.
100% agree.
I also thought it was pretty cool to see our new OL coach speaking candidly about our FA acquisitions with our former star RB.
Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
That was the trade to make after we failed to get to the three spot.
I also thought it was pretty cool to see our new OL coach speaking candidly about our FA acquisitions with our former star RB.
Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
When a team meets with a player multiple times it probably means they can't all get on the same page. My guess is they wanted to get there with McCarthy but couldn't.
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I can understand not selecting a QB you don't like. However, I do find it concerning that with our extreme need at the position, we didn't like one of Penix, McCarthy or Nix enough to draft them in round 1?
I think you can conclude that they didn't view QB as an "extreme need".
Sure, they were willing to upgrade at the right price, but they weren't desperate. Unfortunately.
The mantra used by Schoen throughout this series has been Jones is a health risk. But, as far as I can tell, not really a risk as a talent. They believe in his talent.
If that is true, I find that very troubling.
If they actually believed in his talent they wouldnt have actively engaged in trading up. I just dont think this is worth being troubled over. The result isnt what they wanted and they told you that. If maye had been available they would have taken him.
That has been the biggest change to come from the 2011 CBA that instituted a rookie wage scale. And like previous big changes to the league (the 1970 merger, 1994 FA & the salary cap), they have been followed by periods of Giants ineptitude.
If we are to take Hard Knocks seriously, what we see is an organization whose decisions are largely informed by its own past. So this current era of ineptitude makes sense.
The Giants offense of the 90's sucked but they won a division title in 97 and went to a Super Bowl in 2000 and by 2004 they were well on their way. Calling that a period of Giants ineptitude is a stretch in my opinion. You should see stretches of time other franchises have.
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Also looks like Jets offered us two 1s to move up to 6. That must’ve been tempting.
That was the trade to make after we failed to get to the three spot.
It was the Vikings that tried to move up - #11 and #23 belonged to the Vikings. Jets were at #12.
There was a bit of confusion because Schoen mention Joe Douglas. I think the Jets may have enquired about a move up, but the picks offered that Schoen mentioned belonged to the Vikings.
He seems honest and genuine to a fault to me
That is useful to have the trust of the other GMs etc…
If that image is a bit cultivated and manufactured for the show, all the better.