4.5 hours before the draft Schoen calls the Patriots, and temp checks with Wolf.
Wolf says they are probably picking a QB, and it would need to be something significant for them to trade out.
Your best guess, based on the timing and the appearant state talks were at:
A) The Giants were aggressively pursuing a trade with the Pats, and they seriously wanted to pick a QB
B) They were keeping options open, and just doing due diligence in case the price was right
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I believe Schoen. Jones is their guy.
This is completely incorrect.
This is spot on
If Schoen was ready to bet his job on a player by giving up several picks, I would think hours before the draft he would have called and had a serious package ready to offer.
Exactly, especially since Mara OK'd a move like that if Schoen was convicted about it, he wasn't, and the Pats didn't really want to trade, schoen simply did his due diligence to see if he could get a sweet deal, couldn't, and moved on. Didn't seem they ever thought they could really move up or had any interest in offering more than typical market value for a QB.
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I don’t see how you can ever overpay for a QB that is not even your QB1 in the draft class… Accorsi may have “overpaid” for Eli but he was his clear QB1
Well, if your second rated QB in a draft is better than your current QB option, I think you still pull the trigger. It's worth the stretch.
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Schoen has repeatedly brought up on HK how much money they're paying Jones, and he clearly said he still believes in Jones and that even Mahomes wouldn't have succeeded behind that line.
I believe Schoen. Jones is their guy.
You're off on this one. It's quite clear they wanted the QB and offered two #1s plus an additional pick in 2024 draft. They didn't want to give up more future assets.
If they're willing to give up that much for Maye, and not even consider one of McCarthy, Penix, or Nix even at 9 after a trade down...that is a questionable assessment in my opinion. But then again these are the same people that paid Jones.
In the real world, I would assume a call 4 hours pre-draft between serious people goes more like: We're prepared to make what we believe is a very fair and compelling offer ...
The pats weren't sitting for a second staged call for hard knocks. Schoen made no offer, because, as you say, he wasn't serious. Had he been convicted, he would have. He didn't, says all that needs to be said. Nabers was the real realistic target from the beggining.
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In comment 16557690 ChrisRick said:
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I wonder how many times the Giants casually called teams in the top 5 about top rookie qbs when Manning was in his prime.
p.s.--When was the last time Manning finished the season on IR? Oh, never. Let alone finished four of the last five season on IR. When you have a QB with well-established durability issues and you're drafting in the top ten, you absolutely have to explore potential franchise QBs that may be available. If management had lost faith in Jones's talent, they would've been looking at QBs up and down the draft, not just the franchise variety.
Fair point about the injuries. I am aligned with a common take that Schoen and Daboll felt Jones earned himself another shot at being a franchise qb which is why he did not a franchise qb deal when he was recently re-signed. He got a deal that would both give Jones another shot while not fully committing to him. I think Schoen and Daboll are on the fence whether Jones can actually be a franchise qb without even considering a he injuries. As for the draft, how do we know they weren’t looking at other qbs as the draft unfolded, what if they did not like the (qb) prospects available in regard to the value of their picks and the other players a available?
I think Schoen possibly targeting a top prospect like Maye was telling. That indicated to me they are concerned with Jones’ ability to play qb more than they are concerned with his availability.
Either way, I don’t see Jones’ relationship with Schoen and Daboll as clear cut.
Team B would like to improve it's QB and checks with Team A. Team A has consistently said we need a QB but if you have a great proposal, we will listen. Team B says how does X,Y and Z sound. Team A laughs and says we will also need next years X and Z.
Team B says no, I need players too and walks away.
Just before the draft Team B calls Team A and asks if there is any chance of reconsidering the trade. Team A says no.
End of game.
Either that or the Giants weren't ever really interested, and the Internet rumors stemmed from someone in the organization relaying the substance of that perfunctory call, and misunderstanding what that was.
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Four hours before the draft is certainly not the time the general "how open for business are you" conversation is had. So I believe that's got to be staged.
Either that or the Giants weren't ever really interested, and the Internet rumors stemmed from someone in the organization relaying the substance of that perfunctory call, and misunderstanding what that was.
Based on that call Wolf wanted a strong owner and Schoen cut the call off. I certainly hope that's for the cameras. It feels way too relaxed to be real.
Another clip has Mara saying he'll have palpitations if they do this deal. Looks like HK misdirection.
If anything, the Kibuki dance that there was almost a trade
is the story made up for HK, the reality is it was never close, and neither side did much more than their job descriptions require. Schoen had a responsibility to look for an upgrade while not overpaying, and that's really all he did, the pats were never in that kind of market or entertaining those kind of offers.
I take a lot of stock in what Rico says, there was a belief a deal was going to be done around 3pm eastern time on draft day. There were other NYG podcast personalities that said they thought it was done around that time. Kraft backed off. Rickey is reporting that too.
The call in the HK trailer? That feels made for TV. During the day of the draft the wind was blowing towards NYG trading for Maye for a brief window in the afternoon.
I'm of the belief there was legit interest.
Glad you brought up that draft day post by Rico. It was like recalling a submerged memory, like in a thriller. Totally whiplash for me. I bet we’ll learn the truth about the negotiations with the Patriots one day.
Well, if your second rated QB in a draft is better than your current QB option, I think you still pull the trigger. It's worth the stretch.
No, Mara's take was the best. You don't move up at any cost, but if you have the conviction onn the player, THEN you do whatever it takes, and we clearly didn't feel that way. You don't pay a kings ransom to marginally improve. Mara was right.
Who said at any cost?
So far, we don't even know if Schoen had a BAFO. His conversation with Wolf was very much a rough outline. Nothing close to getting down to brass tacks.
This makes me think Rico's Intel was soft...
So the Giants moved onto the next player they liked best, Nabers.
Wolf straight up said his communication had been poor. That's a very good indication of why the nature of the negotiations were so undeveloped the day of the draft.
Schoen was ultra prepared. That's been the theme since day one. He has contingency on top of contingency, and pre-negotiated trades in place before the draft starts. That can't happen 4 hours before. That's leg work that takes careful planning.
A trade might materialize at the 11th hour, but there's no way two serious parties are exchanging what appeared to be the broadest of parameters that close to the draft.
Wolf sounded like an unprepared amateur.
Due diligence - try to find out what other teams would have to give up if they were trading. Try to narrow down what was going to be there at 4-5-6.
Why do u insist on pushing this narrative? It's simply not true
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there was a serious thought of trading for Maye.
Due diligence - try to find out what other teams would have to give up if they were trading. Try to narrow down what was going to be there at 4-5-6.
Why do u insist on pushing this narrative? It's simply not true
In Sy's defense, and based on what we have been privy to, it doesn't sound like Schoen was desperate for a QB. If I had to compare it to water temperature, Schoen's interest was lukewarm.
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In comment 16557685 Sy'56 said:
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there was a serious thought of trading for Maye.
Due diligence - try to find out what other teams would have to give up if they were trading. Try to narrow down what was going to be there at 4-5-6.
Why do u insist on pushing this narrative? It's simply not true
In Sy's defense, and based on what we have been privy to, it doesn't sound like Schoen was desperate for a QB. If I had to compare it to water temperature, Schoen's interest was lukewarm.
They want a QB.
bob kraft, jonathan kraft, and even outside parties like consultants/brady were rumored to have some level of input into their discussions of prospects.
i think wolff clearly and correctly articulated the obvious reality that their situation dictated a QB selection but beyond that i think they were an organization that was in dysfunction evaluating the right way to go.
the giants clearly wanted drake maye from the combine on. it is on the level of 'faked moon landing' to suggest so much of what we have seen firsthand now as some kind of false flag.
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In comment 16558375 Woodstock said:
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In comment 16557685 Sy'56 said:
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there was a serious thought of trading for Maye.
Due diligence - try to find out what other teams would have to give up if they were trading. Try to narrow down what was going to be there at 4-5-6.
Why do u insist on pushing this narrative? It's simply not true
In Sy's defense, and based on what we have been privy to, it doesn't sound like Schoen was desperate for a QB. If I had to compare it to water temperature, Schoen's interest was lukewarm.
They want a QB.
Well they're welcome to draft one anytime. It's been five drafts without one.
I suspect - as is usually the case - one final offer was made when the Pats were on the clock.
Does everyone realize anything said on camera did not reveal the Giants true intentions. Outside people were inside the building. The information was insecure. You have to go by the actions. No offer was made, no real offer is made.
If you WANT ONE THOSE QBS you must make a serious offer. The Pats are not telling them their want, they had all the leverage. It lis ike you have no idea how negotiating works. All Schoen did was touch base. Ignore the words and look at the actions.
NO OFFER
bob kraft, jonathan kraft, and even outside parties like consultants/brady were rumored to have some level of input into their discussions of prospects.
i think wolff clearly and correctly articulated the obvious reality that their situation dictated a QB selection but beyond that i think they were an organization that was in dysfunction evaluating the right way to go.
the giants clearly wanted drake maye from the combine on. it is on the level of 'faked moon landing' to suggest so much of what we have seen firsthand now as some kind of false flag.
I have also raised your point about Wolf. It's an almost impossible position to run an NFL draft with an interim GM title. He sounded overwhelmed on that call with Schoen.
I think the more interesting HK would have been filming the Pats right now without Belichick in the building. He ran everything.
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They wanted Daniels or Maye, but the conversation showed that the Pats were dragging their feet/asking too much.
I suspect - as is usually the case - one final offer was made when the Pats were on the clock.
Hilarious. They made no offer, yet you offer as evidence. There was one final offer that I was made when the Pats were on the clock. How long did the Pats take to make the pick Eric? You were wrong about this.
Does everyone realize anything said on camera did not reveal the Giants true intentions. Outside people were inside the building. The information was insecure. You have to go by the actions. No offer was made, no real offer is made.
If you WANT ONE THOSE QBS you must make a serious offer. The Pats are not telling them their want, they had all the leverage. It lis ike you have no idea how negotiating works. All Schoen did was touch base. Ignore the words and look at the actions.
NO OFFER
So the definition of a real offer are only the ones that become executed deals?
The new Mr. Art of the Deal.
There's a large contingent that believes that you only take a QB if you feel an absolute conviction on the prospect, regardless of your incumbent QB situation (this was a common topic on this board in 2018). If the Pats felt similarly, it wouldn't have been impossible for them to trade out of #3 overall.
Of course, the reality is that most teams do not pass on QB when the opportunity to draft even an imperfect premium QB prospect meets their need. But we had seen our own team do so fairly recently when they chose Barkley, and many fans don't accept easily the idea that the Giants make a lot of illogical choices (especially under Gettleman).
So there were many fans who asked, "what if the Patriots don't love any of the QB prospects in this draft?" It was only after the fact that they realized that there is a more pragmatic way to approach the QB position, which is to treat it like any other position - if you have a gaping hole at that spot, you address it with the best prospect you can find, rather than waiting for the perfect prospect (who might never come, or worse - might be even more imperfect in reality than the ones you couldn't commit to).
Exactly. They badly wanted Maye. Nabers was the consolation they appeared to be thrilled with. Seems they know they need a QB.
If that's true, then what has to happen for them to get one?
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Seems they know they need a QB.
If that's true, then what has to happen for them to get one?
Unfortunately, it feels like they will need to finish dead last and get the #1 overall pick.
Anything else brings complications and unwillingness to pull the trigger.
Does everyone realize anything said on camera did not reveal the Giants true intentions. Outside people were inside the building. The information was insecure. You have to go by the actions. No offer was made, no real offer is made.
If you WANT ONE THOSE QBS you must make a serious offer. The Pats are not telling them their want, they had all the leverage. It lis ike you have no idea how negotiating works. All Schoen did was touch base. Ignore the words and look at the actions.
NO OFFER
From what we heard on HK and the timeline they showed, I agree that I never heard Schoen offer an actual package. I heard a framework of a deal, some spit balling, but nothing definitive where Schoen said, "Okay, Eliot. Here is are BAFO...this year's one, next year's one, etc, etc..."
Of course, there were reports of a deal, but those reports could just as easily be what we heard. The Giants talked about a deal, but a real offer was never proposed.
Eliot said explicitly in that call we heard that they were taking a QB. And unless they heard a great offer, they weren't moving. At that point, Schoen basically indicated he was out, and onto the next plan.
Now, I'm not dismissing the idea he may have made one more check-in call right before the draft, but the meeting where Schoen hosted Mara, Tisch and Daboll an hour or so before the draft sounded very much like they were out with a Pats deal and exploring "what-ifs" based on picks 4 and 5. And contingencies around the results of those selections...
Schoen is a serious person. I'm sure he realized New England was not seriously negotiating. That was confirmed when Wolf apologized for his poor communication.
A team that is seriously considering trading the 3rd pick is in constant dialogue with suitors. You don't pick a cell phone carrier, let alone trade a coveted asset at the state Wolf was in on that call. You could tell he didn't have the authority or the approved opening bid from his masters.
I think Schoen was always serious about trading up, and made one final check-in just to make sure he wasn't missing an opportunity. But he knew the guy on the other end of the line was a not a serious person.
At what point did something have to give, though? Waiting until we have the #1 pick in a John Eleay draft obviously isn't a viable strategy. At some point you have to make a move...unless you're ok with the guy you're already paying.
Watching them on Hard Knocks I'm more convinced than ever Jones is the starter in 2025. What's the alternative? Trade up for Beck or Ewers? They just showed us they won't do that.
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perhaps there's an argument no price is too high. But, if not ...
At what point did something have to give, though? Waiting until we have the #1 pick in a John Eleay draft obviously isn't a viable strategy. At some point you have to make a move...unless you're ok with the guy you're already paying.
Watching them on Hard Knocks I'm more convinced than ever Jones is the starter in 2025. What's the alternative? Trade up for Beck or Ewers? They just showed us they won't do that.
No easy answers, as we're experiencing, until you embrace the suck and secure the high pick.
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In comment 16558769 JonC said:
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perhaps there's an argument no price is too high. But, if not ...
At what point did something have to give, though? Waiting until we have the #1 pick in a John Eleay draft obviously isn't a viable strategy. At some point you have to make a move...unless you're ok with the guy you're already paying.
Watching them on Hard Knocks I'm more convinced than ever Jones is the starter in 2025. What's the alternative? Trade up for Beck or Ewers? They just showed us they won't do that.
No easy answers, as we're experiencing, until you embrace the suck and secure the high pick.
Here we don't just embrace the suck; we pay it $160M!
If Schoen truly believes in Jones, he's fooked and so are NYG. Might as well allow him to grease the chute for his exit while he's at it.
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Seems they know they need a QB.
If that's true, then what has to happen for them to get one?
Full bloom love. I agree that it's an incorrect way to think.
If Schoen truly believes in Jones, he's fooked and so are NYG. Might as well allow him to grease the chute for his exit while he's at it.
That exit is taking a long time. It's looking like by the time he's gone Jones will be fourth all time in Giants QB starts behind only Manning, Simms, and Conerly. It's difficult to believe.
When they're sitting at 3-6 around Halloween we're apparently supposed to satisfy ourselves with "well they tried to trade for Maye".
@clt_ny
Schoen says to J Mara when talking about trading up to draft a QB, “We’re in striking distance…It goes back to ‘You should draft one every year.’ Well if you have a chance…”
Yet after 3 drafts, the only position Schoen hasn’t drafted is QB. 🤔
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If this isn't QB he'll, the forecast is certainly hot with a chance of fire.
When they're sitting at 3-6 around Halloween we're apparently supposed to satisfy ourselves with "well they tried to trade for Maye".
If the Giants are 3-6 at that point then I’ll be hoping for them to turn the season around. And if they don’t? Oh well, it is only football. I ain’t sayin it is the right way, but it is my way.
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In comment 16558814 christian said:
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If this isn't QB he'll, the forecast is certainly hot with a chance of fire.
When they're sitting at 3-6 around Halloween we're apparently supposed to satisfy ourselves with "well they tried to trade for Maye".
If the Giants are 3-6 at that point then I’ll be hoping for them to turn the season around. And if they don’t? Oh well, it is only football. I ain’t sayin it is the right way, but it is my way.
My way is the same as your way, except I'll also ask the question "Why do they keep doing things that make them 3-6 at Halloween?"
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In comment 16558823 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16558814 christian said:
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If this isn't QB he'll, the forecast is certainly hot with a chance of fire.
When they're sitting at 3-6 around Halloween we're apparently supposed to satisfy ourselves with "well they tried to trade for Maye".
If the Giants are 3-6 at that point then I’ll be hoping for them to turn the season around. And if they don’t? Oh well, it is only football. I ain’t sayin it is the right way, but it is my way.
My way is the same as your way, except I'll also ask the question "Why do they keep doing things that make them 3-6 at Halloween?"
I have mostly given up on that (why they make the decisions they do). I would like to keep the little amount of sanity that I have left 🙂