| So, within the context of that situation and the way the contract is structured, and the way last year went, yeah, I think that's a fair assessment that we need better in 2024. |
This is from the press conference today. Not sure if anyone had the chance to watch or read the transcript, but this caught my attention immediately. I don't ever recall Schoen talking about the structure of the Jones contract within these terms.
It's also the first time I'm hearing anyone from the organization call out Jones about needing to be better. This isn't McAdoo calling out Eli, but it's there. It's much more subtle, but the message is there.
Roger Staubach had to compete for the starting job. Terry Bradshaw had to fend off competitors; Joe Montana had to win the starting job. Daniel Jones? Anointed from the start, no competition and every excuse in the book tendered since. Never seen anything like it.
This ^
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In comment 16559099 HardTruth said:
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Schoen seems to have a funny way of showing it
Trying to draft Maye says hello
Joe Schoen’s 24 draft picks and 0 QBs selected says wasssup
And who would have have drafted?
Kenny Pickett?
Or….drafted a QB the same year they signed him to extension?
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But the 2023 contract negotiations were uncomfortable and if you read between the lines of the coverage that came out around that time, Schoen seemed frustrated a little bit at the demands of Jones’s camp. Then Jones comes out and embarrasses Schoen in 2023 and hurts his reputation.
There’s reason the MGM book has Jones’s o/u for passing TDs at 9.5, a number he’s cleared even during the Judge years. The job is his for now, and I think the team would love for him to succeed, but the leash will be pretty short.
I have to think that the TD O/U is based on Jones’s injury history. I don’t know how bad a healthy Jones would have to be for them to move on to Lock.
Even when he’s been injured - outside of 2023 - he’s still cleared 9.5 TDs in every season. This is an easy over bet if you assume he’d miss his average number of 3-5 games. To me this number indicates that benching risk is pretty baked in.
I agree that Locks sucks but I’d be willing to wager they’d just go to Devito. If the season is going so bad that both Jones and Lock played themselves out of a starting position, things will be so cooked that I doubt putting Jones back in would be on the table.
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doesn't need to be a first round pick. They drafted none since Jones. Given Jones' play the last 5 years, that is extraordinary. Even this season, he is paid as the unchallenged starter and is the unchallenged starter.
Roger Staubach had to compete for the starting job. Terry Bradshaw had to fend off competitors; Joe Montana had to win the starting job. Daniel Jones? Anointed from the start, no competition and every excuse in the book tendered since. Never seen anything like it.
This ^
I agree, if they didn't have holes at every single position on the field. A 4th or 5th round OG/DT/LB has a decent chance to make a team and play. A 4th or 5th round QB does not.
Once the team is pretty well set, I can see grabbing a QB. But at this point, there are too many holes to pass over a possible contributing player.
It was possible to do so this offseason, and they didn't.
It is, but they aren't doing anything about it! They should have moved heaven and earth to convince Russell Wilson to come here, drafted a Pratt or Milton in the sixth round and then cut DJ after June 1st. Wilson being available at vet minimum was like manna from heaven - and all it would have taken I believe was convincing him that he would be the starter for this team for 2024! No doubt in my mind that his brand would be infinitely more valuable here in NYC under a proven offensive guru like Brian Daboll than in Pittsburgh under a journeyman coach like Arthur Smith. And we would then be talking this morning about a legitimate playoff contending season instead of one that ends again before Halloween.
But they are still in the realm of denial with DJ. Very sad times for this once great franchise.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
I agree that Locks sucks but I’d be willing to wager they’d just go to Devito. If the season is going so bad that both Jones and Lock played themselves out of a starting position, things will be so cooked that I doubt putting Jones back in would be on the table.
If things really fall apart I agree DeVito should be given the chance.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
Yes, if they're laser focused on a prospect that's just out of reach and isn't that much better, if at all, than the prospects they could draft without a trade.
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if you don't watch the games but, instead, pour over statistics. If you actually watch the games Jones took a horrible roster, put it on his back and carried it into the playoffs in 2022. Then he won a ROAD PLAYOFF GAME something Dak Prescott has never done, despite his gaudy statistics. I learned a long time ago (Bart Starr taught it to me) that statistics don't mean shit when it comes to QB play.
He did not put them on his back. Saqoun put them on his back the first 8 weeks and when Saqoun started to tail off the Giants went 4-7-1 the rest of the way.
They didn't use a pass heavy offense with Kadarius Toney, Marcus Johnson, Richie James and David Stills? Remember Sterling Shepard started the season getting reps and got hurt. Slayton barely played; he had 18 snaps TOTAL in the first three games combined. Inactive Week 1. Week 1 snaps mostly were Golladay, Shep and James. Sills mixed in there, too. This was the WR group primarily the first three games. Fourth is when Slayton got some serious reps and they sat Kenny G.
This isn't complicated.
They won against Houston that year by passing, not running. Barkley had 35 rushes against Houston but their scoring drives were when they passed the ball. Jones had over 300 plus yards and scores against Jax. They only had 238 offensive yards against Baltimore and won, mainly due to taking advantage of Lamar Jackson turning it over twice in the final moments of the game. They beat Green Bay, which was their other notable game and Barkley had 13 runs while Jones passed 27 times. Scored 27 points and won. Marcus Johnson was the second leading receiver that day for the Giants.
Second half of year, losses to Dallas (again), Philly, Seattle (Richie James 2x fumble game) and Detroit (whole team got beat). And you are counting the last game started by Davis Webb as a loss to Jones for whatever reason.
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
4000 yards/27-30 TDs/15 ints/8.0 Y/A.
I would take that along with a competitive season.
Long shot IMO.
Barkley carried the team in 2022, not Jones. The whole league knows this, and that’s why everyone was amazed that John got the long-term deal and not Barkley.
The only way Jones gets cut is if he has a disaster of a season and stays healthy.
I guess I'm blind.
Because if they were really finished with Team Jones, like Payton was with Wilson in Denver, we would have done something about it already.
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is patently obvious that Schoen and Daboll want to replace Jones as quickly as possible.
It was possible to do so this offseason, and they didn't.
Cutting him before June 1 would have meant a whopping $69M cap hit. That isn't realistic. That number drops to $22M after this season, which would still be the largest dead cap hit ever for the Giants.
Go watch the Nabers tape. Think about what Saban told Daboll. Now remember Eli the year before OBJ and the year after.
When slants and crosses start going to the house.
This is why Saban said Nabers was a problem. Problems change the way you play a team. We drafted the right guy. Jones is going to look good.
Welcome to the new world.
EVERYTHING CHANGES.
If we protect Jones for 2.5 seconds and Nabers looks like he did in the SEC he is going to put up stats. The system they are running works, it is complicated and depends on playmakers. Is Tua great? We didn’t have the playmakers. Watch
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the keyboard -- the contract makes Jones cheaper and easy to keep in 2025.
The only way Jones gets cut is if he has a disaster of a season and stays healthy.
Agree 100%
Also agree. Jones could easily be the Giants starting QB in 2025. And that's true even if the Giants draft a QB in the first or second round.
Its clear they had QBs they liked. Its also clear NE liked and needed a QB a great deal. I would feel not great if they had to trade this years 1+2, and next year's 1+2, plus more.
Surely if youre sober-minded you can agree that the opportuity wasnt great. Things did not break their way.
Right now it looks like Schoen walked away without a BAFO.
Because that last call Scoen had with Wolf in E4 was about as milquetoast as it gets for a negotiation. To me, it looked like Schoen checked his box, told his owners he tried, and happily found Jones a weapon at #6.
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In comment 16559172 christian said:
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I'll say this until I'm blue in the keyboard -- the contract makes Jones cheaper and easy to keep in 2025.
The only way Jones gets cut is if he has a disaster of a season and stays healthy.
Agree 100%
Also agree. Jones could easily be the Giants starting QB in 2025. And that's true even if the Giants draft a QB in the first or second round.
Jones was going to be on the roster this year even if we drafted Maye. We were stuck with his salary this year so at minimum he would be here as a backup... but we were NOT moving on from him this season. Plus, even as a backup he knows the Daboll system.. so dont be stupid.
Once he was signed to the contract a year ago, he was going to be on the roster for two seasons.
Step away from the forum for a while. Go walk the dog and if you dont have a dog, then walk the neighbor's dog. Get a hobby or anything that can take your mind away from Daniel Jones.
But once the rumors of Lock having a chance to start were publicly shot down, it was clear there was no intent to challenge young Daniel.
Barkley was the better and more valuable player that year for the Giants and its not close. It's funny how that aspect always get left out of the argument that Jones "has no weapons"...
Jones was going to be on the roster this year even if we drafted Maye. We were stuck with his salary this year so at minimum he would be here as a backup... but we were NOT moving on from him this season. Plus, even as a backup he knows the Daboll system.. so dont be stupid.
Once he was signed to the contract a year ago, he was going to be on the roster for two seasons.
Step away from the forum for a while. Go walk the dog and if you dont have a dog, then walk the neighbor's dog. Get a hobby or anything that can take your mind away from Daniel Jones.
Come on, even his biggest critics acknowledge that Jones’s will be on the roster this year, and probably next. It’s him being handed the starting job no matter how poorly he plays that is the problem.
Sure the odds are low, but their heads might literally explode. Although they will twist themselves into a million knots trying to explain it away….
f
Shouldn't a good year be the expectation of 6th year QB making 20% of your salary cap?
The fact that its a pie in the sky scenario is the problem with Jones. You should be hoping for a "great year" and fully expecting a "good year".
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
It would take a freakin' miracle of a season for me to change my mind at this point.
It would take a freakin' miracle of a season for me to change my mind at this point.
Look at it from their perspective though. What's the alternative?
1. Pay a Darnold type to start for a year? Might as well just stick with Jones.
2. Pay Dak (if available) $60M and eat Jones's money? Seems unlikely.
3. Force the QB pick in a a weak QB draft? They're not supposed to do that. And even if they do, why get rid of Jones?
Jones's 2024 is almost certainly going to look better than his 2023, and he'll be cheaper. Why get rid of him?
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
If you keep 'em, even if he's cheaper, you're now making a two year financial commitment whether you cast him aside after 2025 or not b/c your gotta eat the 11 mil dead cap hit the following year b/c you certainly can't pay him what he's projected to make in 2026.
1.) If you take the hit on DJ's contract this year - can't pay a Sam Darnold the next
2.) You also can't afford a Dak
3.) I get the force a QB pick b/c it's a weak QB class - but a lot can happen on that front in one year...there's plenty of examples of that (ie #1 Joe Burrow) The NYG will almost be forced to go QB which might be what it takes to get the NYG to move off DJ...like until he retires - ugh.
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 16559575 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3. Link - ( New Window )
While QB1 and QB2 appear lower than what you had in the 2024 crop, looking at who is on the watch list the QB3-QB6 could actually be stronger (or at the very least not worse) than 2024. Granted there are a number of names on the 2025 list where you are saying that with the assumption of development in their draft year based on the flashes to date. If they don't take the next step suddenly the class does become quite shallow.
They didn't use a pass heavy offense with Kadarius Toney, Marcus Johnson, Richie James and David Stills? Remember Sterling Shepard started the season getting reps and got hurt. Slayton barely played; he had 18 snaps TOTAL in the first three games combined. Inactive Week 1. Week 1 snaps mostly were Golladay, Shep and James. Sills mixed in there, too. This was the WR group primarily the first three games. Fourth is when Slayton got some serious reps and they sat Kenny G.
This isn't complicated.
They won against Houston that year by passing, not running. Barkley had 35 rushes against Houston but their scoring drives were when they passed the ball. Jones had over 300 plus yards and scores against Jax. They only had 238 offensive yards against Baltimore and won, mainly due to taking advantage of Lamar Jackson turning it over twice in the final moments of the game. They beat Green Bay, which was their other notable game and Barkley had 13 runs while Jones passed 27 times. Scored 27 points and won. Marcus Johnson was the second leading receiver that day for the Giants.
Second half of year, losses to Dallas (again), Philly, Seattle (Richie James 2x fumble game) and Detroit (whole team got beat). And you are counting the last game started by Davis Webb as a loss to Jones for whatever reason.
So how did Jones put them on his back if they didn’t use a heavy pass offense? Let’s go week by week of the wins.
Week 1: 238 rushing yards, 164 by Barkley. Jones almost lost them the game with a redzone pick that was overturned.
Week 2: The defense keeps them in the game while the Giants manage 6 points in the first half and score one TD.
Week 4: Jones had two rushing touchdowns but the Giants leaned heavily on Barkley with 31 Carrie’s for 146 yards.
Week 5: an efficient but unspectacular game from Jones, but he was their best player on offense that day.
Week 6: the defense put the Giants on their back in the 4th quarter
Week 7: Jones 11 carries for 107 and a score carried the Giants we can agree there.
Week 10: there’s no spin to this one, Saqoun and the running game carried the Giants
Saqoun falls off they don’t win again until week 15, another sub 200 yard passing game. Saqoun and the defense carried the Giants.
The Lions loss Jones was one of the main culprits. He gave the Lions the ball twice, once on the Giants 13 in a game they lost by two tds. Sure Richie James fumbled twice against Seattle but Jones didn’t do much either.
Jones was fine enough in 2022, but the idea he “put them on his back” is the fakest narrative written on this site. The Giants were probably a 4 win team without Saqoun and the defense playing above their heads.
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In comment 16559600 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16559575 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3. Link - ( New Window )
While QB1 and QB2 appear lower than what you had in the 2024 crop, looking at who is on the watch list the QB3-QB6 could actually be stronger (or at the very least not worse) than 2024. Granted there are a number of names on the 2025 list where you are saying that with the assumption of development in their draft year based on the flashes to date. If they don't take the next step suddenly the class does become quite shallow.
Obviously there is a lot of college football to be played. Hopefully the QB class explodes.
But it struck me when Sy said that right now none of the 2025 class would be top 6 in the 2024 class, and that the 2025 class looks just as strong at WR.
Unfortunately, I don't feel as optimistic as you on this one.
Rare I would agree with ajr, but I think SB was the big key offensively during the 7-2 start. The run game did fall off significantly the back end of the season at the RB spot. Jones was good and AT was great.
In the Detroit and Seattle games, SB had low carries and below 2.5 ypc. That makes it tough on the QB. Consistent theme for Jones and the Giants the past 2 seasons. In the three games SB was out last season Giants RB's averaged 16c/38y/2.3. Terrible OL and subpar skill group is tough sledding.
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In comment 16559603 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559600 Mike in NY said:
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In comment 16559575 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16559293 UberAlias said:
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It didn't work out, and since they have not exactly hid their willingness to take another. They've said it, and their actions have shown it.
But they haven't taken another QB anywhere in three drafts. So what happens next spring if they go 7-10 and Jones has another lousy season? Do they draft QB3 in a weaker 2025 draft? That would be drafting a QB to draft a QB, wouldn't it...the very thing they aren't supposed to do.
If they didn't "pick a QB to pick a QB" in 2024, why are they going to do it in 2025? Jones will still be under contract.
Most roads - not all, but most - point to Jones being the opening day starter in 2025. That will be year 7.
Who says that the QB available when the Giants pick will be weaker than JJM, Penix, Nix?
Sy did, for one. And if you look around you'll find plenty of articles similar to the one linked below. And bear in mind the Giants are unlikely to be picking in the top 3. Link - ( New Window )
While QB1 and QB2 appear lower than what you had in the 2024 crop, looking at who is on the watch list the QB3-QB6 could actually be stronger (or at the very least not worse) than 2024. Granted there are a number of names on the 2025 list where you are saying that with the assumption of development in their draft year based on the flashes to date. If they don't take the next step suddenly the class does become quite shallow.
Obviously there is a lot of college football to be played. Hopefully the QB class explodes.
But it struck me when Sy said that right now none of the 2025 class would be top 6 in the 2024 class, and that the 2025 class looks just as strong at WR.
I think you are underestimating that WR is a position that is easier to have success early, both at collegiate and NFL level. Outside of Caleb Williams and Drake Maye, none of the other 4 QB's in Round 1 of 2024 Draft were at that level in April 2023. While none of us have access to the scouting reports the Giants had of JJM, Penix, and Nix, each of them had enough questions where it was reasonable to have them in a tier that was significantly below where Nabers was slotted. I don't think you get out of Daniel Jones disaster by drafting another Daniel Jones.
Week 2: The defense keeps them in the game while the Giants manage 6 points in the first half and score one TD.
Basically a gift 6 points off CAR turnovers. Drives started at the CAR 22 and CAR 40.
None of those three are unrecruited, unproductive QBs from Duke. Just because Jones sucks doesn't mean the next QB we draft will. To be fair the next QB we draft might not even be born yet so who knows.
As for receivers, I think it's pretty easy to find receivers all over the draft. I wouldn't have drafted Nabers over any of the QBs or Alt.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I think that would be 14.7 on Kenny G...right?
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I think there's a decent chance he's plays out the entire contract, it is restructured. The one caveat could be if they have a shot at Arch Manning. That would be full bloom love.
Without receiving trade comp, I believe the most is the 14.7M in dead money from cutting Golladay.
Your first point should not be underestimated. As of April Jones was recovering well from his ACL tear and ontrack to be ready for camp.
Anyone who doesn't think part of Schoen's calculation was about his own credibility, when Mara still owed Jones 36M in new cash, is naive.
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I think it's clear their plan is for him to be here at least through 2024, and quite possibly 2025. To reverse on that decision is a tough one to answer to ownership for, especially when they love the player in question. What's the most $ the Giants have ever eaten on a contract? And, how quickly did it occur from signing.
I've resigned myself to him being here. It's one reason I've posted less and less since the draft, interest is waned.
I think there's a decent chance he's plays out the entire contract, it is restructured. The one caveat could be if they have a shot at Arch Manning. That would be full bloom love.
Your QB evaluation skills are amazing being that Arch Manning played a total of 1 series last year
Kudos 😂😂😂😂