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| Art Stapleton @art_stapleton · 5h No. I'm not expecting Giants to sign Gilmore or Howard. |
| Quote: |
| Gridiron Media @Gridiron_Media_ · 3h According to Art Stapleton, he's "not expecting" the Giants to sign free agent CB Stephon Gilmore. |
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
a 1 year deal in the presumed $5m range is in no way a detriment to sustained success. they could restructure a few more million off Dex and distribute over the life of his deal.
other than a big investment in burns the giants have been the opposite of aggressive spenders this offseason. extremely cap prudent.
this is the exact type of "extra good player" you give yourself flexibility to add by not paying the difference between singletary/barkley.
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And, on top of that, one injury will pretty much send this defense really backwards. We have two pass rushers on the edge and Dex inside. We are keeping our fingers crossed that they stay healthy and can be a great unit. But you lose any one of Burns, Thibs, Dex, or Okereke and we are talking about a completely different team. There is so much depending on these 4 guys staying healthy and, even then, they'll need rest as well.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
a 1 year deal in the presumed $5m range is in no way a detriment to sustained success. they could restructure a few more million off Dex and distribute over the life of his deal.
other than a big investment in burns the giants have been the opposite of aggressive spenders this offseason. extremely cap prudent.
this is the exact type of "extra good player" you give yourself flexibility to add by not paying the difference between singletary/barkley.
That is 5 million less next year to spend. Nobody is saying it isn't reasonable but is it the smart thing to do? We do this every year where our back is up against the wall with the cap and we do things like this. Then the next offseason people bitch that we have no money to spend. Gettleman fixed the cap in one year he was here but people kill him for going out and signing Golladay and Solder. Schoen has been here 3 years and still complains about the lack of funds to which fans still blame Gettleman.
Van Roten was the last decent signing unless we see real cap opened up. They have like $2-3M in space for an emergency fund right now after Van Roten, practice squad, and going from 51 to 53.
You don’t sign Gilmore as a starter if you really feel that a player already on the roster is going to develop into a solid starter by the end of the season. Do you think the Giants have one of those?
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In comment 16565060 robbieballs2003 said:
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And, on top of that, one injury will pretty much send this defense really backwards. We have two pass rushers on the edge and Dex inside. We are keeping our fingers crossed that they stay healthy and can be a great unit. But you lose any one of Burns, Thibs, Dex, or Okereke and we are talking about a completely different team. There is so much depending on these 4 guys staying healthy and, even then, they'll need rest as well.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
a 1 year deal in the presumed $5m range is in no way a detriment to sustained success. they could restructure a few more million off Dex and distribute over the life of his deal.
other than a big investment in burns the giants have been the opposite of aggressive spenders this offseason. extremely cap prudent.
this is the exact type of "extra good player" you give yourself flexibility to add by not paying the difference between singletary/barkley.
That is 5 million less next year to spend. Nobody is saying it isn't reasonable but is it the smart thing to do? We do this every year where our back is up against the wall with the cap and we do things like this. Then the next offseason people bitch that we have no money to spend. Gettleman fixed the cap in one year he was here but people kill him for going out and signing Golladay and Solder. Schoen has been here 3 years and still complains about the lack of funds to which fans still blame Gettleman.
their back isnt up against any wall with the cap. just not the right framing to start with. they have no FAs to resign of consequence hitting FA next year. they project to have 22m in space next year that can turn into 42m without jones. cut nacho they are over 45m.
by any metric they are a healthy team in terms of cap, entering the 3rd year of a rebuild with a roster this regime has spent like 1bn of resources fully reassembling between draft, FA, extensions. they are bottom 1/3 in dead money even with the waller retirement and have probably restructured less $ than at least 2/3 of the league this offseason.
adding a player who started every game at a premium position for one of the best defenses in football last year at 1 year 5m is the type of move any team should make if they can even if they are tighter to the cap than nyg.
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In comment 16565065 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16565060 robbieballs2003 said:
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And, on top of that, one injury will pretty much send this defense really backwards. We have two pass rushers on the edge and Dex inside. We are keeping our fingers crossed that they stay healthy and can be a great unit. But you lose any one of Burns, Thibs, Dex, or Okereke and we are talking about a completely different team. There is so much depending on these 4 guys staying healthy and, even then, they'll need rest as well.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
a 1 year deal in the presumed $5m range is in no way a detriment to sustained success. they could restructure a few more million off Dex and distribute over the life of his deal.
other than a big investment in burns the giants have been the opposite of aggressive spenders this offseason. extremely cap prudent.
this is the exact type of "extra good player" you give yourself flexibility to add by not paying the difference between singletary/barkley.
That is 5 million less next year to spend. Nobody is saying it isn't reasonable but is it the smart thing to do? We do this every year where our back is up against the wall with the cap and we do things like this. Then the next offseason people bitch that we have no money to spend. Gettleman fixed the cap in one year he was here but people kill him for going out and signing Golladay and Solder. Schoen has been here 3 years and still complains about the lack of funds to which fans still blame Gettleman.
their back isnt up against any wall with the cap. just not the right framing to start with. they have no FAs to resign of consequence hitting FA next year. they project to have 22m in space next year that can turn into 42m without jones. cut nacho they are over 45m.
by any metric they are a healthy team in terms of cap, entering the 3rd year of a rebuild with a roster this regime has spent like 1bn of resources fully reassembling between draft, FA, extensions. they are bottom 1/3 in dead money even with the waller retirement and have probably restructured less $ than at least 2/3 of the league this offseason.
adding a player who started every game at a premium position for one of the best defenses in football last year at 1 year 5m is the type of move any team should make if they can even if they are tighter to the cap than nyg.
Eric, to further your point...look how much the cap went up (unexpectely) this year. If such a trend continues, that's yet even more room next year to accommodate this sort of vet signing.
McCloud is already Fabian Moreau
And Flott and Hawkins have higher ceilings
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In comment 16565065 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16565060 robbieballs2003 said:
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And, on top of that, one injury will pretty much send this defense really backwards. We have two pass rushers on the edge and Dex inside. We are keeping our fingers crossed that they stay healthy and can be a great unit. But you lose any one of Burns, Thibs, Dex, or Okereke and we are talking about a completely different team. There is so much depending on these 4 guys staying healthy and, even then, they'll need rest as well.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
a 1 year deal in the presumed $5m range is in no way a detriment to sustained success. they could restructure a few more million off Dex and distribute over the life of his deal.
other than a big investment in burns the giants have been the opposite of aggressive spenders this offseason. extremely cap prudent.
this is the exact type of "extra good player" you give yourself flexibility to add by not paying the difference between singletary/barkley.
That is 5 million less next year to spend. Nobody is saying it isn't reasonable but is it the smart thing to do? We do this every year where our back is up against the wall with the cap and we do things like this. Then the next offseason people bitch that we have no money to spend. Gettleman fixed the cap in one year he was here but people kill him for going out and signing Golladay and Solder. Schoen has been here 3 years and still complains about the lack of funds to which fans still blame Gettleman.
their back isnt up against any wall with the cap. just not the right framing to start with. they have no FAs to resign of consequence hitting FA next year. they project to have 22m in space next year that can turn into 42m without jones. cut nacho they are over 45m.
by any metric they are a healthy team in terms of cap, entering the 3rd year of a rebuild with a roster this regime has spent like 1bn of resources fully reassembling between draft, FA, extensions. they are bottom 1/3 in dead money even with the waller retirement and have probably restructured less $ than at least 2/3 of the league this offseason.
adding a player who started every game at a premium position for one of the best defenses in football last year at 1 year 5m is the type of move any team should make if they can even if they are tighter to the cap than nyg.
Freeing up for Dak…🤪
age 31 darious williams got 3 years 22m with 15m gtd
gilmore is older but was better than both of them last year. nobody is advocating paying him some big contract if that's what he's holding out for, but if it's a reasonable 1 year deal it's a no brainer. i assume he has had offers like that on the table from other contenders he'd sooner take than NYG but who knows.
Eric, to further your point...look how much the cap went up (unexpectely) this year. If such a trend continues, that's yet even more room next year to accommodate this sort of vet signing.
yep, and the biggest thing the cap increase shows is how hard its going to be to get good players. the more the cap increases the more they all get overpriced by inflation.
so when you get the chance to get a guy at a discount because maybe they misplayed their hand in UFA, having flexibility to sign value deals is the best thing you can do with cap flexibility. it's exactly what just happened with Van Roten.
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In comment 16565065 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16565060 robbieballs2003 said:
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And, on top of that, one injury will pretty much send this defense really backwards. We have two pass rushers on the edge and Dex inside. We are keeping our fingers crossed that they stay healthy and can be a great unit. But you lose any one of Burns, Thibs, Dex, or Okereke and we are talking about a completely different team. There is so much depending on these 4 guys staying healthy and, even then, they'll need rest as well.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
a 1 year deal in the presumed $5m range is in no way a detriment to sustained success. they could restructure a few more million off Dex and distribute over the life of his deal.
other than a big investment in burns the giants have been the opposite of aggressive spenders this offseason. extremely cap prudent.
this is the exact type of "extra good player" you give yourself flexibility to add by not paying the difference between singletary/barkley.
That is 5 million less next year to spend. Nobody is saying it isn't reasonable but is it the smart thing to do? We do this every year where our back is up against the wall with the cap and we do things like this. Then the next offseason people bitch that we have no money to spend. Gettleman fixed the cap in one year he was here but people kill him for going out and signing Golladay and Solder. Schoen has been here 3 years and still complains about the lack of funds to which fans still blame Gettleman.
their back isnt up against any wall with the cap. just not the right framing to start with. they have no FAs to resign of consequence hitting FA next year. they project to have 22m in space next year that can turn into 42m without jones. cut nacho they are over 45m.
by any metric they are a healthy team in terms of cap, entering the 3rd year of a rebuild with a roster this regime has spent like 1bn of resources fully reassembling between draft, FA, extensions. they are bottom 1/3 in dead money even with the waller retirement and have probably restructured less $ than at least 2/3 of the league this offseason.
adding a player who started every game at a premium position for one of the best defenses in football last year at 1 year 5m is the type of move any team should make if they can even if they are tighter to the cap than nyg.
They have cap space now? No, they don't. It means they have to take money from future years for this year. That is the same principle as trading away future picks. Why did Schoen not want to do that?
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In comment 16565068 robbieballs2003 said:
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In comment 16565065 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16565060 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
And, on top of that, one injury will pretty much send this defense really backwards. We have two pass rushers on the edge and Dex inside. We are keeping our fingers crossed that they stay healthy and can be a great unit. But you lose any one of Burns, Thibs, Dex, or Okereke and we are talking about a completely different team. There is so much depending on these 4 guys staying healthy and, even then, they'll need rest as well.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
a 1 year deal in the presumed $5m range is in no way a detriment to sustained success. they could restructure a few more million off Dex and distribute over the life of his deal.
other than a big investment in burns the giants have been the opposite of aggressive spenders this offseason. extremely cap prudent.
this is the exact type of "extra good player" you give yourself flexibility to add by not paying the difference between singletary/barkley.
That is 5 million less next year to spend. Nobody is saying it isn't reasonable but is it the smart thing to do? We do this every year where our back is up against the wall with the cap and we do things like this. Then the next offseason people bitch that we have no money to spend. Gettleman fixed the cap in one year he was here but people kill him for going out and signing Golladay and Solder. Schoen has been here 3 years and still complains about the lack of funds to which fans still blame Gettleman.
their back isnt up against any wall with the cap. just not the right framing to start with. they have no FAs to resign of consequence hitting FA next year. they project to have 22m in space next year that can turn into 42m without jones. cut nacho they are over 45m.
by any metric they are a healthy team in terms of cap, entering the 3rd year of a rebuild with a roster this regime has spent like 1bn of resources fully reassembling between draft, FA, extensions. they are bottom 1/3 in dead money even with the waller retirement and have probably restructured less $ than at least 2/3 of the league this offseason.
adding a player who started every game at a premium position for one of the best defenses in football last year at 1 year 5m is the type of move any team should make if they can even if they are tighter to the cap than nyg.
Eric, to further your point...look how much the cap went up (unexpectely) this year. If such a trend continues, that's yet even more room next year to accommodate this sort of vet signing.
When the cap goes up, it goes up for all teams. It isn't an advantage for us.
This league is getting to be like prized paintings in a museum being thrown around in hopes the damage isn't too great.
It is absolutely crazy what QB's are being paid now and other positions are catching up. This can't continue for much longer because it isn't sustainable.
They have cap space now? No, they don't. It means they have to take money from future years for this year. That is the same principle as trading away future picks. Why did Schoen not want to do that?
draft picks and cap space are not equally valued or similarly manipulated assets. the nature of the CBA is such that draft picks by design are underpaid surplus value assets while the bulk of veteran contracts end up under water.
draft picks cant be manipulated without another team's mutual participation whereas teams can manipulate their cap however they want, so theres more risk if you trade draft picks (which exist in a fixed quantity to secure surplus assets) than use cap space (which is flexibly manipulated and most often only secure underwater assets).
a 1 year deal ~1-2% of the cap is a snickers bar at the checkout line.
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They have cap space now? No, they don't. It means they have to take money from future years for this year. That is the same principle as trading away future picks. Why did Schoen not want to do that?
draft picks and cap space are not equally valued or similarly manipulated assets. the nature of the CBA is such that draft picks by design are underpaid surplus value assets while the bulk of veteran contracts end up under water.
draft picks cant be manipulated without another team's mutual participation whereas teams can manipulate their cap however they want, so theres more risk if you trade draft picks (which exist in a fixed quantity to secure surplus assets) than use cap space (which is flexibly manipulated and most often only secure underwater assets).
a 1 year deal ~1-2% of the cap is a snickers bar at the checkout line.
You are missing the point completely. Why manipulate it? What is your long term vision? Any idiot can spend. What is the point and how does it fit your vision? I was 100% in favor of Van Roten. We have players at CB. Let them play. Let's see what we have first before we just spend to spend.
I love the direction this team is heading. There was a long time that we had a lot of depth but needed top tier talent. We are headed there are defense but now our depth is lacking. The goal should be to not look for quick fixes right now but continue to build this team for sustained success.
As usual same page for me. Pretty much word for word. We need one more off-season but that take is contingent on the belief that this season goes pretty well. By well I mean Thibs and Burns are bad ass edges. The secondary sees Banks and the FS/SS find their way and the OL at least comes close to the 2000 OL. And the WRs need to show they are very good and capable of forging the identity on offense. IF those things happen, you can zero in on fat guys for the D and O next draft and...oh yea QB....play it by ear lol.
If they don't sign someone in the next few days, I think the starting 3 are conditionally set.
That's exactly who I was thinking of, too.
This Giants D could potentially be very good with a pretty badass looking DL. I think it's worth it to bring in a vet CB2 to stabilize the starting lineup.
You are missing the point completely. Why manipulate it? What is your long term vision? Any idiot can spend. What is the point and how does it fit your vision? I was 100% in favor of Van Roten. We have players at CB. Let them play. Let's see what we have first before we just spend to spend.
isnt this entire discussion premised on:
1. Knowing well what they have on the roster, THEY (the NYG FO) have considered CB a major need all offseason yet missed on all top targets (williams, white, lassiter, mckinstry)
2. Seeing isn't just once the regular season starts - based on those who are seeing them now the guys in camp aren't looking so hot
my long term vision is very simple, accumulate assets at good prices. adding is adding, so im always for adding more depth smartly vs doing nothing. A $5m starter at a premium position of need assuming there's a fit isn't interfering with anything long term. Heck if the season tanks he could be a trade asset before the deadline. I'd happily eat the full $5m for a 4th/5th/6th round pick if things go south.
when you are in year 3 and have already turned over the entire roster, it's time to start winning football games or else someone else's vision is going to be guiding the future any way. a great way to not win football games is to hope that unproven young guys at important positions step up. that's how you end up with 6 of your 9 rostered week 1 OL being ezeudu, jms, neal, mckethan, lemiuex, peart.
I'm not a huge fan of laying out $5mm+ guarenteed r/n. I'd rather them have options during the year.
I could certainly understand deciding to spend on Connor Williams > Gilmore. Or more generally waiting to decide how to prioritize resources until they see how camp moves along. Every team loses on average 2 players to season ending injuries in camp so there may be another area that needs it more even though Gilmore is probably the best player avail.
Link - ( New Window )
I also believe they will see how McCloud, Flott and Hawkins do through camp. McCloud appears to be doing well and Hawkins is a year more experienced and less likely to be blinded by the limelights like last year. Hawkins started by seem paralyzed in season - perhaps not trusting himself.
There will also be CBs cut in late August that are experienced and cap cuts.
I think they want to go youth.
age 31 darious williams got 3 years 22m with 15m gtd
gilmore is older but was better than both of them last year. nobody is advocating paying him some big contract if that's what he's holding out for, but if it's a reasonable 1 year deal it's a no brainer. i assume he has had offers like that on the table from other contenders he'd sooner take than NYG but who knows.
Then they went with Tre Herndon. I watched exactly 0 Jags games last year, but PFF gave him a 70.8. They changed DCs so might not have been a fit anymore. He plays both slot and outside. I haven't heard anything from him at camp but I'm surprised he was forgotten so quickly.
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age 29 tredavious white got 1 year 4.25m gtd with incentives to max out at 10m
age 31 darious williams got 3 years 22m with 15m gtd
gilmore is older but was better than both of them last year. nobody is advocating paying him some big contract if that's what he's holding out for, but if it's a reasonable 1 year deal it's a no brainer. i assume he has had offers like that on the table from other contenders he'd sooner take than NYG but who knows.
Then they went with Tre Herndon. I watched exactly 0 Jags games last year, but PFF gave him a 70.8. They changed DCs so might not have been a fit anymore. He plays both slot and outside. I haven't heard anything from him at camp but I'm surprised he was forgotten so quickly.
Tre Herndon got a minimum salary and exactly $0 guaranteed.
What does that tell you about how the entire league of teams views him? Any team could have used a 90 man roster spot on him for free and yet he had to try out to get his spot with NYG.
Like I said in my first reply, they seem to be trying to hope to get lucky like they did with Fabian Moureau in 2022. If it were that easy to do so, starting corners wouldnt cost on average about $10m/year.
I also believe they will see how McCloud, Flott and Hawkins do through camp. McCloud appears to be doing well and Hawkins is a year more experienced and less likely to be blinded by the limelights like last year. Hawkins started by seem paralyzed in season - perhaps not trusting himself.
There will also be CBs cut in late August that are experienced and cap cuts.
I think they want to go youth.
white and williams were 29 and 31 respectively. they didnt visit those guys for no reason, or without any prior understanding of what the costs would likely be. both understandably chose LAR - and in White's case the price ended up very fair. he is on the books (1 yr, 4.25m + incentives) for less than im suggesting for gilmore may cost.
obviously - but players tend to get more reasonable once they get closer to missing paychecks and costing themselves whatever the best they can get at the moment is.
i guarantee off a strong season where he started all 17 games without giving up a sack Van Roten was hoping to get more than 3m and just 920k guaranteed.
obviously - but players tend to get more reasonable once they get closer to missing paychecks and costing themselves whatever the best they can get at the moment is.
i guarantee off a strong season where he started all 17 games without giving up a sack Van Roten was hoping to get more than 3m and just 920k guaranteed.
Agree with the bold. Hopefully, we have had some general discussions with Team Gilmore.
I always prefer going with a youth movement, especially teams like the Giants don't appear ready to challenge for big trophies anytime soon. And I could see Team Gilmore looking to chase another ring to enhance his HoF credentials.
But for a one-year rental, a guy like Gilmore would be a good add to help a young secondary.
vs
we only need a few more pieces to be really good now.
vs
we only need a few more pieces to be really good now.
in reality i think almost every team is somewhere in between those emotional poles.
last year LAR did a ton of cutting and led the league in dead money yet still competed. their entire defense other than Donald was minimum salaried players. Same with all their skill players minus Kupp (who was injured most of year). this year BUF did the same type of cutting.
WAS has a whole new coaching staff, regime, new QB, had a TON of draft picks, and they still used A TON of cap space on veterans throughout the roster. a guy like bobby wagner in theory has no place in washington, yet he's there likely because Dan Quinn knows him and knows he can help him win games, and he knows winning games is ultimately the best way to develop a team. losing typically just begets more losing.