I know this has been discussed ad nauseam here, however, I couldn't help but notice when they were discussing the draft
I don't recall if it was just prior to the draft or during the draft (pretty sure it was prior)
JS and DB we're having a discussion about QB's, JS basically mentioned that this QB/that QB etc were gone and wouldn't make it to the Giants. So we'll just get Daniel Jones a weapon by drafting Nabers. It almost seemed as if Daboll was disgusted with the fact that he was stuck with Jones, even Joe Schein was kind of trying to put a positive spin on this.
You wouldn't have to know anything about football or sports to see that they do not like Daniel Jones (I guess the one positive sign to this is the coach and GM are definitely on the same page)
As interesting as this show is, I kind of think it puts a not so good spin on management or the Giants for that matter. I'm not concerned about Danie Jones feelings whatsoever, considering the amount he is being paid, however, their reactions to essentially being "stuck" with him helps absolutely no one.
Just seems like a black eye to everyone and everything involved(it could be any team), I guess just the business side of it. These discussions were tame, considering they knew they were being recorded, could you imagine what these guys say in private about DJ?
I picked up things I missed the first couple of times I watched. I think you're on to something, but I will discuss in greater detail during the next BBI podcast, which will be taped tomorrow.
I found it very interesting
I'm positive they wanted to sign Saquon and tag DJ in 23, but unfortunately it didn't work out.
They really wanted a top tier QB in 2024, but again the 3 teams ahead of them were desperate for a QB. They made a serious offer to no avail.
I think there will be no holds barred attempt to draft a top QB in 2025 unless DJ gets them a playoff win.
They don't believe in him, but have an owner who thinks it's his son.
Oh, there's a path.
It can always get worse.
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To a top 5 pick with a QB, we are well coached and have enough talent to win games, where is jones successor going to come from? Maybe a team that just took a qb high has an awful year and we pay a kings ransom to trade up? It’s not ideal.
Oh, there's a path.
It can always get worse.
LOL.. Thanks for the reminder!!!
I found it very interesting
I watched his body language and 100% agree.
Sanders is a no for me.
Schoen also said that they planned on giving Jones 2 years and the tone implied that he sucked the 1st year and had better do something this year.
Daboll never says anything bad about Jones, only Schoen does. Daboll cannot denigrate Jones as he has to work with him.
If Jones keeps effing up in camp, I would not be surprised if he gets benched/bypassed. I would not say he is on a short leash, but it isn't very long.
They know Caleb and Daniels are not available. Maye might be and McCarthy will be. Russell Wilson also was for cheap.
Conclusion, in the minds of Joe and Brian:
Maye and McCarthy do not have the right stuff. Throw in Penix, Nix, Travis, Rattler, Milton and Leary. All of which were available to the Giants to shuffle for.
Russell Wilson @ 5 million dollars was not worth it. He's washed in the eyes of our coach and GM.
Actions have meaning. DJ and Lock are the chosen for 2024, and it was decided; Schoen clearly takes responsibility for it. I don't believe Daboll thinks he can't win with DJ/Lock, because Schoen would've paid or picked.
Y'all are reading way too much into a fraction of a second reaction from Daboll.
Schoen also said that they planned on giving Jones 2 years and the tone implied that he sucked the 1st year and had better do something this year.
Daboll never says anything bad about Jones, only Schoen does. Daboll cannot denigrate Jones as he has to work with him.
If Jones keeps effing up in camp, I would not be surprised if he gets benched/bypassed. I would not say he is on a short leash, but it isn't very long.
Personally, I'm not pro or anti Daniel Jones, with a gun to my head, I would definitely say he is not the answer though
In fairness, everyone knows the line was a hot mess last year, he definitely doesn't own all of this
They know Caleb and Daniels are not available. Maye might be and McCarthy will be. Russell Wilson also was for cheap.
Conclusion, in the minds of Joe and Brian:
Maye and McCarthy do not have the right stuff. Throw in Penix, Nix, Travis, Rattler, Milton and Leary. All of which were available to the Giants to shuffle for.
Russell Wilson @ 5 million dollars was not worth it. He's washed in the eyes of our coach and GM.
Actions have meaning. DJ and Lock are the chosen for 2024, and it was decided; Schoen clearly takes responsibility for it. I don't believe Daboll thinks he can't win with DJ/Lock, because Schoen would've paid or picked.
Y'all are reading way too much into a fraction of a second reaction from Daboll.
I respectfully disagree, it almost had your "Throw my hands up in the air" feeling. It seemed like frustration to me that no qb was available. The team wanted Maye, dollars to donuts
And you know this how?
What boxes are they looking to check?
They know Caleb and Daniels are not available. Maye might be and McCarthy will be. Russell Wilson also was for cheap.
Conclusion, in the minds of Joe and Brian:
Maye and McCarthy do not have the right stuff. Throw in Penix, Nix, Travis, Rattler, Milton and Leary. All of which were available to the Giants to shuffle for.
Russell Wilson @ 5 million dollars was not worth it. He's washed in the eyes of our coach and GM.
Actions have meaning. DJ and Lock are the chosen for 2024, and it was decided; Schoen clearly takes responsibility for it. I don't believe Daboll thinks he can't win with DJ/Lock, because Schoen would've paid or picked.
Y'all are reading way too much into a fraction of a second reaction from Daboll.
Wilson went to the Steelers because they are in a better position to make the playoffs. Had nothing to do with anything else.
And they would have taken Daniels or Maye.
Some still need a 'Come to Jesus' moment.
But he made Jones competent in 2022 with carefully placed training wheels. If he has to do it again with new training wheels or a different approach, he will figure go back to the lab for year six of the Daniel Jones Experience.
I ain't buying what Schoen is selling on his wishy-washiness with Jones. I still think he's a Jones guy who kicked the tires on a trade because they were so close to the "top three". But at the end of the day, he didn't go hard to the hole to make a deal.
If you ended up having to overpay a player because your owner could help but publicly gush over them. Wouldn't you be annoyed?
It's one thing to keep the player, that is understandable given the season 1000%. But to be forced to overpay because your owner takes away your leverage, that sucks.
Just because someone spends a huge amount of money on a house doesn't mean they love the house. And that is even less complicated than this because nobodies boss pressures them to buy a house.
But people walk around here like the money implies a love of the player. And while in some situations the evidence dictates that it certainly isn't true when you have an owner who is in full bloom love and can't keep his mouth shut, even in public. Even if only to help with a reasonable negotiation.
What a miserable first game at MetLife. Literally nothing to root for. Fortunately, I attended with 3 childhood friends, had a steak dinner and beer beforehand, picked up NY bagels and pizza the next day, which somewhat washed away the bad feeling from the game.
What a miserable first game at MetLife. Literally nothing to root for. Fortunately, I attended with 3 childhood friends, had a steak dinner and beer beforehand, picked up NY bagels and pizza the next day, which somewhat washed away the bad feeling from the game.
Ughh, that would suck.. Going to get to our 1st game at Met Life for a preseason game (wife and kids)
Perhaps some grandstanding by Daboll. Similar to the tablet toss.
The insider who posted a thread about a week before the draft might have had it correct imv. JS preferred the QB and BD wanted the WR (if they couldn't move up).
What an awful, awful, awful stadium. I doubt I ever go back for a football game. I did see Bruce there last LDW .
The Jones pass to Hyatt electrified the place (if I recall correctly, it was underthrown / should have been a touchdown).
Too bad that great experience was washed down the sewer after the Monday debacle at MetLife versus Seattle.
Not planning to go to any games this year.
OR
Lock does nothing but put the Giants in a deeper hole and with a top 5 draft pick assured, Devito gets to play the last 5 games with nothing on the line. Devito plays well enough to compete in 2025 with a new drafted QB or a veteran like Cousins or Prescott.
That was one of my favorite parts of the series when Carson Schoen told his dad to select Daniels because you "only get this job once..."
That's the real GM in the family... ;)
I don't doubt the Giants wanted to upgrade over Jones *if* it were for a blue chip prospect *and* if it didn't come at the expense of their other wants.
There's no reason the deal the Texans gave Minnesota to acquire pick 23 wasn't available to the Giants. That's the path to fill your war chest. With pick 6, 23, and a future first in play -- things get serious.
I agree, but as many others have said and keep saying, you don’t give a bridge QB the deal they gave Jones. The problem is they apparently didn’t think he was just a bridge QB until 2023
If the Giants were serious about 'no scholarships', there'd be an open QB competition after how Jones fared last season. He fucking sucked. Both his backup & the 3rd string QB off the street performed better. & who knows? Jones might win an open competition because we don't have '90 Steve Young on the roster. Jones might indeed be the best QB on the roster, which speaks more to Schoen assembling a QB room than anything else.
I thought the QB position sucked last year. It's even fucking worse this year.
But I'm sure if Jones struggles this year, it'll be because of the OL. Or a WR got injured. Or he's coming off an injury. Or something. The excuses for this dude never end. Maybe he's just not that good of a QB.
& I want him to succeed. I want to eat crow. I want the Snorkels & Jack Stroud to throw these posts back in my face if he's lighting it up & we're winning.
But I'm a realist. I think we know what we have in Jones.
They might. Couple intriguing prospects in it and I'm glad it won't be Sanders.
The insider who posted a thread about a week before the draft might have had it correct imv. JS preferred the QB and BD wanted the WR (if they couldn't move up).
The way Daboll answered Schoen if he would trade up for Daniels - a resolute yes - makes me think Daboll would have absolutely taken a more talented QB than the QB-by-numbers he currently has...
I’m sure good prospect QBs won’t always be on the 53.
Obviously, Daboll likes DJ a lot, although that is problematic for those that have a specific narrative.
Obviously, Daboll likes DJ a lot, although that is problematic for those that have a specific narrative.
I'm sure Schoen (and other GMs) salivate over Lynch in SF not only having a QB on a rookie contract, but a 7th round pick's salary.
The 49ers better win this year, because adding a $40M+ per year QB salary to their already messing salary cap situation could get ugly quickly.
I'm sure Schoen (and other GMs) salivate over Lynch in SF not only having a QB on a rookie contract, but a 7th round pick's salary.
Perhaps Schoen should take a page out of the 9er draft book and actually draft a QB.
Anywhere.
Yes, clearly they would have traded up if they had the opportunity but that’s the reality of the finances of football. DJ is not a top 5 QB, so if you have a chance to get better you go for it.
I think people are looking too hard to prove they don’t like Jones and looking for anything that says the coach and GM agree. You can’t get too much information from Hard Knocks. The Giants weren’t going to allow their feelings on Jones to be known 100%, it’s pure speculation. It can be true that they were looking for an upgrade but it could also be true that they like DJ.
I got the sense from Hard Knocks that Daboll didn’t necessarily want a QB and wants to roll with Nabers, but he also knows it’s hard to find a special QB and I think Daniels was the guy he really wanted but early on he couldn’t get him so turned his attention back to WR and Nabers was his #1. All speculation on my part but that what I saw in the very limited info we had access to.
Imagine if Daboll wins with Jones. The man will be in Canton.
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I don't think he's part of the future plans. Schoen values a cost controlled WR1 so he checked off that box this year.
I agree, but as many others have said and keep saying, you don’t give a bridge QB the deal they gave Jones. The problem is they apparently didn’t think he was just a bridge QB until 2023
They gave him a deal where they projected him to be the 12-15 best QB in the league with an out after 2 years. Not a crippling contract, they just haven't brought in anyone else which I don't understand.
Dabs - ( New Window )
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In comment 16565404 Sean said:
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I don't think he's part of the future plans. Schoen values a cost controlled WR1 so he checked off that box this year.
I agree, but as many others have said and keep saying, you don’t give a bridge QB the deal they gave Jones. The problem is they apparently didn’t think he was just a bridge QB until 2023
They gave him a deal where they projected him to be the 12-15 best QB in the league with an out after 2 years. Not a crippling contract, they just haven't brought in anyone else which I don't understand.
Because I'm starting to fear Joe actually believes in Jones. Which is terrifying, if true.
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How anyone could be satisfied w DJ as their QB
Some still need a 'Come to Jesus' moment.
I’d have thought the last they’d have 5 years worth by now
Just curious - like whom?
On paper, it certainly looks like Schoen wanted to make sure there was no disruption in the QB room. Jones is QB1.
The irony is, however, the other QBs in the room with Jones may actually be better players than Jones right now.
Good find, exactly what scene I was referring to
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I'm sure Schoen (and other GMs) salivate over Lynch in SF not only having a QB on a rookie contract, but a 7th round pick's salary.
Perhaps Schoen should take a page out of the 9er draft book and actually draft a QB.
Anywhere.
Perhaps if the Giants had the talent on the roster that the 49ers have, they would.
When the roster is complete and they don't have holes everywhere, then they could/should throw a pick to the wind on a QB.
EVERYONE knew they tried to trade up.
This is a business and JS structured the deal with the out after this season.
DJ got his and has a chance to show his value going forward.
Dabs is clearly not a patient dude.
His character was in full bloom while the cameras were rolling...
I think players want to play for him,I really do-he has that dog in him
Not sure how this mess continues. Just play DeVito.
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They would have brought in better competition that Lock.
Just curious - like whom?
On paper, it certainly looks like Schoen wanted to make sure there was no disruption in the QB room. Jones is QB1.
The irony is, however, the other QBs in the room with Jones may actually be better players than Jones right now.
I disagree 100%. If the actual coaches and GM thought Lock and / or DeVito were better there would be a competition. There isn’t. Jones is the QB of choice. Everyone always loves the backup until the backup is the full starter. Comparing Jones to DeVito from last year, Jones played against the top teams in the league without his 2 best offensive players in Thomas and Barkley. DeVito had wins against Wash and NE the teams picking 2nd and 3rd in the draft. If the Giants thought DeVito was legit they wouldn’t have signed Lock as the #2 QB. DeVito may not make the roster.
Lock was paid as a backup and told he was a backup. It’s probably the reason Wilson didn’t sign here, he wasn’t guaranteed the starting spot.
Perhaps if the Giants had the talent on the roster that the 49ers have, they would.
When the roster is complete and they don't have holes everywhere, then they could/should throw a pick to the wind on a QB.
The biggest hole on the team is arguably QB. And as others have stated ad nauseum, our handsome GM has refused to draft one for three drafts.
Sorry, but building the team first, and hoping you get that so right many QBs could function well on it, is not the best approach. The 9ers are a complete outlier for that blueprint...
So they aren’t sold on him, but they also don’t think he sucks.
It’s not that complicated and reading into what are probably staged scenes on HK isn’t wise.
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Perhaps if the Giants had the talent on the roster that the 49ers have, they would.
When the roster is complete and they don't have holes everywhere, then they could/should throw a pick to the wind on a QB.
The biggest hole on the team is arguably QB. And as others have stated ad nauseum, our handsome GM has refused to draft one for three drafts.
Sorry, but building the team first, and hoping you get that so right many QBs could function well on it, is not the best approach. The 9ers are a complete outlier for that blueprint...
Sorry, but you are wrong. You can build a winning team with VG players around a mediocre QB easier, than finding a superstar QB and then build the team.
In order to do the latter, you have to suck enough to get the #1 or #2(maybe #3) pick in a year where there are a couple franchise QBs. If you suck that bad, it takes quite a while to build the team to support him, if he doesn't get killed 1st.
Just because you get the franchise QB doesn't mean you have enough around him to make the final 4 - look at Herbert and Allen. Personally I think Herbert is overrated on BBI. He had excellent WRs and has barely made the playoffs.
Also, let's look at current examples:
Tua is a good, not special, QB with a VG team around him
Hurts is a good, not special, QB with an excellent team around him
Dak is a good QB, probably not special QB, with an excellent team around him
Goff is a good, not special QB, with a building VG team
Now each one of those is a better QB than Jones. Now put any of those QB in place of Jones with the weapons the Giants have now. How do you feel?
Agree on this, as I mentioned before, it just wasn't a good look. As interesting as the show is, if I was a GM I wouldn't want the entire world knowing how the organization goes to business (this could be any team)
No one had Jayden Daniels ranked high going into last season.
I can agree on Jones/Barkley even if it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
You are mostly wrong on your Neal take. Neal was not some reach OT that nobody expected to be taken in the top 10. He was #1 on the Cowboys board. Neal has been derailed by injuries which have crippled his development. Think of how Phil Simms was viewed 4 years into his career between multiple injuries and tons on INTs.
I also do not think Bobby Johnson did him any favors as coach. I am still hopeful that Carmen Bricillo can reach him.
IMHO, Neal was the correct pick at #7(yes over Wilson) and he had the credentials to be that pick. He is a hard working player, smart. powerful and somewhat athletic who has poor technique. Combined with injuries he simply has not developed.
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In comment 16565449 section125 said:
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Perhaps if the Giants had the talent on the roster that the 49ers have, they would.
When the roster is complete and they don't have holes everywhere, then they could/should throw a pick to the wind on a QB.
The biggest hole on the team is arguably QB. And as others have stated ad nauseum, our handsome GM has refused to draft one for three drafts.
Sorry, but building the team first, and hoping you get that so right many QBs could function well on it, is not the best approach. The 9ers are a complete outlier for that blueprint...
Sorry, but you are wrong. You can build a winning team with VG players around a mediocre QB easier, than finding a superstar QB and then build the team.
In order to do the latter, you have to suck enough to get the #1 or #2(maybe #3) pick in a year where there are a couple franchise QBs. If you suck that bad, it takes quite a while to build the team to support him, if he doesn't get killed 1st.
Just because you get the franchise QB doesn't mean you have enough around him to make the final 4 - look at Herbert and Allen. Personally I think Herbert is overrated on BBI. He had excellent WRs and has barely made the playoffs.
Also, let's look at current examples:
Tua is a good, not special, QB with a VG team around him
Hurts is a good, not special, QB with an excellent team around him
Dak is a good QB, probably not special QB, with an excellent team around him
Goff is a good, not special QB, with a building VG team
Now each one of those is a better QB than Jones. Now put any of those QB in place of Jones with the weapons the Giants have now. How do you feel?
"Build the team first" is not a thing. It's especially not a thing when the approach to accepting the QB is "we have to be in full bloom love".
Schoen: “we’re rolling with Daniel, you good with that?”
Daboll: “yeah”
That’s it???
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In comment 16565511 bw in dc said:
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In comment 16565449 section125 said:
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Perhaps if the Giants had the talent on the roster that the 49ers have, they would.
When the roster is complete and they don't have holes everywhere, then they could/should throw a pick to the wind on a QB.
The biggest hole on the team is arguably QB. And as others have stated ad nauseum, our handsome GM has refused to draft one for three drafts.
Sorry, but building the team first, and hoping you get that so right many QBs could function well on it, is not the best approach. The 9ers are a complete outlier for that blueprint...
Sorry, but you are wrong. You can build a winning team with VG players around a mediocre QB easier, than finding a superstar QB and then build the team.
In order to do the latter, you have to suck enough to get the #1 or #2(maybe #3) pick in a year where there are a couple franchise QBs. If you suck that bad, it takes quite a while to build the team to support him, if he doesn't get killed 1st.
Just because you get the franchise QB doesn't mean you have enough around him to make the final 4 - look at Herbert and Allen. Personally I think Herbert is overrated on BBI. He had excellent WRs and has barely made the playoffs.
Also, let's look at current examples:
Tua is a good, not special, QB with a VG team around him
Hurts is a good, not special, QB with an excellent team around him
Dak is a good QB, probably not special QB, with an excellent team around him
Goff is a good, not special QB, with a building VG team
Now each one of those is a better QB than Jones. Now put any of those QB in place of Jones with the weapons the Giants have now. How do you feel?
"Build the team first" is not a thing. It's especially not a thing when the approach to accepting the QB is "we have to be in full bloom love".
That is your opinion and opinion only.
My opinion is it most definitely easier to build a solid team while looking for a QB. It is the most common method because of the reasons I stated in my post. If a team is not in the top 3 picks, there is little chance assuring a top QB. It is much easier to build the team and then find a QB that can run it. It is more likely to find a QB like I listed above.
And as I wrote, while the listed QBs are good to very good, take them off those teams and those teams will still be solid. Place those QBs on mediocre teams and it is unlikely they elevate those teams.
We will disagree on this until the cows come home.
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Here’s the fact with Schoen. He completely whiffed on the Barkley and DJ situation and not to mention whiffed on a high 1st round pick in Neal. His conviction on signing a 27 year old RB to big money should have been his exact sentiment the year before. He should have let Barkley walk the year before and tagged DJ coming off of 1 decent season. He put his eggs in the DJ basket and is getting roasted by it. I wouldn’t give up on Schoen and Dabs until they got to groom their own QB but if they win 5 games this season you know it’s going to get hot on that seat and to me it’s their own fault.
I can agree on Jones/Barkley even if it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
You are mostly wrong on your Neal take. Neal was not some reach OT that nobody expected to be taken in the top 10. He was #1 on the Cowboys board. Neal has been derailed by injuries which have crippled his development. Think of how Phil Simms was viewed 4 years into his career between multiple injuries and tons on INTs.
I also do not think Bobby Johnson did him any favors as coach. I am still hopeful that Carmen Bricillo can reach him.
IMHO, Neal was the correct pick at #7(yes over Wilson) and he had the credentials to be that pick. He is a hard working player, smart. powerful and somewhat athletic who has poor technique. Combined with injuries he simply has not developed.
Are we so sure about that Cowboys report? I know it’s been cited ad nauseam here, but has it been confirmed? And even if true, whoopdedoo, Schoen is still responsible. Look, I wanted Neal in the draft, but I wasn’t hired to get these things right. Neal’s refusal to work out, even at his pro day, should have raised red flags. Schoen doesn’t get bonus points because Dallas MAY have wanted him too.
And I agree with all of your comments on Neal, he is by all accounts, a good teammate and a hard worker. He just may be too top-heavy to be an NFL OT.
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Tweet of the convo Dabs - ( New Window )
Schoen: “we’re rolling with Daniel, you good with that?”
Daboll: “yeah”
That’s it???
Just sharing the clip to go along with the OPs post. Video can come off a couple different ways.
1) Daboll isn't thrilled about this based on body language, facial expression and previously stating that he'd trade up for Daniels. So maybe he was hoping Joe took action and moved up for a QB, instead of sitting at 6.
2) Daboll doesn't give an F and hopes that Nabers is there at 6.
Everyone is trying to nitpick each episode so their opinion fits their narrative on Jones and the Giants. This is the closest anyone on this board will get to an idea of what happens behind the scenes and how decisions are made.
Giants would have taken Williams, Daniels or Maye if they could get to them. There was a cutoff and they had Nabers and Odunze above the next 3 QBs. Just wish they talked about it.
And as I wrote, while the listed QBs are good to very good, take them off those teams and those teams will still be solid. Place those QBs on mediocre teams and it is unlikely they elevate those teams.
We will disagree on this until the cows come home. [/quote]
Replace them with Daniel Jones and those teams will struggle and immediately prioritize replacing him. Why? Because the forces of attrition are eating away at the roster they built around the QB.
This current regime has had three years to find a quarterback and done nothing but pay Jones. Last year they wasted a year of the actual good players on the team. This year they will waste another. I expect that they will waste next year too.
People are now rationalizing Jones's presence by pointing out how much money is being doled out to other quarterbacks. The money Jones is getting is a problem, but the worst problem is the years.
The Giants are throwing away years.
That’s fair and I agree. He’s had a rough go of it so far. I’m also not floored with the Thibs pick or JMS pick yet, and his UFAs have underwhelmed too.
He also failed to acquire the AB he wanted when he was within striking distance.
They need something good to happen this year. We’re at the tipping point.
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In comment 16565435 jestersdead said:
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Tweet of the convo Dabs - ( New Window )
Schoen: “we’re rolling with Daniel, you good with that?”
Daboll: “yeah”
That’s it???
Just sharing the clip to go along with the OPs post. Video can come off a couple different ways.
1) Daboll isn't thrilled about this based on body language, facial expression and previously stating that he'd trade up for Daniels. So maybe he was hoping Joe took action and moved up for a QB, instead of sitting at 6.
2) Daboll doesn't give an F and hopes that Nabers is there at 6.
Everyone is trying to nitpick each episode so their opinion fits their narrative on Jones and the Giants. This is the closest anyone on this board will get to an idea of what happens behind the scenes and how decisions are made.
You are correct, people nit pick these episodes (just like I did). People can try and make a narrative, it is subjective after-all.
IMHO, again, this is strictly opinion.. His response was more of a "yeah, whatever". Definitely not a ringing endorsement to say the least.
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In comment 16565449 section125 said:
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Perhaps if the Giants had the talent on the roster that the 49ers have, they would.
When the roster is complete and they don't have holes everywhere, then they could/should throw a pick to the wind on a QB.
The biggest hole on the team is arguably QB. And as others have stated ad nauseum, our handsome GM has refused to draft one for three drafts.
Sorry, but building the team first, and hoping you get that so right many QBs could function well on it, is not the best approach. The 9ers are a complete outlier for that blueprint...
Sorry, but you are wrong. You can build a winning team with VG players around a mediocre QB easier, than finding a superstar QB and then build the team.
In order to do the latter, you have to suck enough to get the #1 or #2(maybe #3) pick in a year where there are a couple franchise QBs. If you suck that bad, it takes quite a while to build the team to support him, if he doesn't get killed 1st.
Just because you get the franchise QB doesn't mean you have enough around him to make the final 4 - look at Herbert and Allen. Personally I think Herbert is overrated on BBI. He had excellent WRs and has barely made the playoffs.
Also, let's look at current examples:
Tua is a good, not special, QB with a VG team around him
Hurts is a good, not special, QB with an excellent team around him
Dak is a good QB, probably not special QB, with an excellent team around him
Goff is a good, not special QB, with a building VG team
Now each one of those is a better QB than Jones. Now put any of those QB in place of Jones with the weapons the Giants have now. How do you feel?
Goff was also drafted 1OA and got LA to the SB and then paid.
How LAR built towards that SB run, despite losing, is exactly the model some of us believe in over dropping in a QB after everything else is set
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In comment 16565587 Doubledeuce22 said:
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Here’s the fact with Schoen. He completely whiffed on the Barkley and DJ situation and not to mention whiffed on a high 1st round pick in Neal. His conviction on signing a 27 year old RB to big money should have been his exact sentiment the year before. He should have let Barkley walk the year before and tagged DJ coming off of 1 decent season. He put his eggs in the DJ basket and is getting roasted by it. I wouldn’t give up on Schoen and Dabs until they got to groom their own QB but if they win 5 games this season you know it’s going to get hot on that seat and to me it’s their own fault.
I can agree on Jones/Barkley even if it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
You are mostly wrong on your Neal take. Neal was not some reach OT that nobody expected to be taken in the top 10. He was #1 on the Cowboys board. Neal has been derailed by injuries which have crippled his development. Think of how Phil Simms was viewed 4 years into his career between multiple injuries and tons on INTs.
I also do not think Bobby Johnson did him any favors as coach. I am still hopeful that Carmen Bricillo can reach him.
IMHO, Neal was the correct pick at #7(yes over Wilson) and he had the credentials to be that pick. He is a hard working player, smart. powerful and somewhat athletic who has poor technique. Combined with injuries he simply has not developed.
Are we so sure about that Cowboys report? I know it’s been cited ad nauseam here, but has it been confirmed? And even if true, whoopdedoo, Schoen is still responsible. Look, I wanted Neal in the draft, but I wasn’t hired to get these things right. Neal’s refusal to work out, even at his pro day, should have raised red flags. Schoen doesn’t get bonus points because Dallas MAY have wanted him too.
And I agree with all of your comments on Neal, he is by all accounts, a good teammate and a hard worker. He just may be too top-heavy to be an NFL OT.
There was a picture of Jerry and his son sitting in front of their board. It identified Thibodeaux as their #1 rated player and Neal as their #2 rated player.
It was blurred out a bit, but not only did the BBI sleuths figure it out but so did the beats.
Every draft pick is a mystery as to their outcome. A GM goes with the most highly rated player they have scouted. Seeing as how the Cowboys rarely miss on oline, it is just another confirmation that Evan Neal deserved the rating he was given.
Yes the GM is responsible for his picks. But Neal was not some schmoe that they were taking a chance on. He was a highly rated player from an elite winning program with excellent credentials.
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In comment 16565611 section125 said:
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In comment 16565587 Doubledeuce22 said:
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Here’s the fact with Schoen. He completely whiffed on the Barkley and DJ situation and not to mention whiffed on a high 1st round pick in Neal. His conviction on signing a 27 year old RB to big money should have been his exact sentiment the year before. He should have let Barkley walk the year before and tagged DJ coming off of 1 decent season. He put his eggs in the DJ basket and is getting roasted by it. I wouldn’t give up on Schoen and Dabs until they got to groom their own QB but if they win 5 games this season you know it’s going to get hot on that seat and to me it’s their own fault.
I can agree on Jones/Barkley even if it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
You are mostly wrong on your Neal take. Neal was not some reach OT that nobody expected to be taken in the top 10. He was #1 on the Cowboys board. Neal has been derailed by injuries which have crippled his development. Think of how Phil Simms was viewed 4 years into his career between multiple injuries and tons on INTs.
I also do not think Bobby Johnson did him any favors as coach. I am still hopeful that Carmen Bricillo can reach him.
IMHO, Neal was the correct pick at #7(yes over Wilson) and he had the credentials to be that pick. He is a hard working player, smart. powerful and somewhat athletic who has poor technique. Combined with injuries he simply has not developed.
Are we so sure about that Cowboys report? I know it’s been cited ad nauseam here, but has it been confirmed? And even if true, whoopdedoo, Schoen is still responsible. Look, I wanted Neal in the draft, but I wasn’t hired to get these things right. Neal’s refusal to work out, even at his pro day, should have raised red flags. Schoen doesn’t get bonus points because Dallas MAY have wanted him too.
And I agree with all of your comments on Neal, he is by all accounts, a good teammate and a hard worker. He just may be too top-heavy to be an NFL OT.
There was a picture of Jerry and his son sitting in front of their board. It identified Thibodeaux as their #1 rated player and Neal as their #2 rated player.
It was blurred out a bit, but not only did the BBI sleuths figure it out but so did the beats.
Every draft pick is a mystery as to their outcome. A GM goes with the most highly rated player they have scouted. Seeing as how the Cowboys rarely miss on oline, it is just another confirmation that Evan Neal deserved the rating he was given.
Yes the GM is responsible for his picks. But Neal was not some schmoe that they were taking a chance on. He was a highly rated player from an elite winning program with excellent credentials.
Thanks for that. I remember someone posting here about the Cowboys liking Neal, but didn’t remember the context. And I agree that many teams likely had Neal in their top 10, but the unwillingness to participate in any pre-draft event should have been a huge red flag. There were other good OT prospects available who did participate. Take one or trade back.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but you have to nail your top ten picks. I would think a red flag like that would move him down the board a bit.
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In comment 16565639 Section331 said:
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In comment 16565611 section125 said:
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In comment 16565587 Doubledeuce22 said:
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Here’s the fact with Schoen. He completely whiffed on the Barkley and DJ situation and not to mention whiffed on a high 1st round pick in Neal. His conviction on signing a 27 year old RB to big money should have been his exact sentiment the year before. He should have let Barkley walk the year before and tagged DJ coming off of 1 decent season. He put his eggs in the DJ basket and is getting roasted by it. I wouldn’t give up on Schoen and Dabs until they got to groom their own QB but if they win 5 games this season you know it’s going to get hot on that seat and to me it’s their own fault.
I can agree on Jones/Barkley even if it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
You are mostly wrong on your Neal take. Neal was not some reach OT that nobody expected to be taken in the top 10. He was #1 on the Cowboys board. Neal has been derailed by injuries which have crippled his development. Think of how Phil Simms was viewed 4 years into his career between multiple injuries and tons on INTs.
I also do not think Bobby Johnson did him any favors as coach. I am still hopeful that Carmen Bricillo can reach him.
IMHO, Neal was the correct pick at #7(yes over Wilson) and he had the credentials to be that pick. He is a hard working player, smart. powerful and somewhat athletic who has poor technique. Combined with injuries he simply has not developed.
Are we so sure about that Cowboys report? I know it’s been cited ad nauseam here, but has it been confirmed? And even if true, whoopdedoo, Schoen is still responsible. Look, I wanted Neal in the draft, but I wasn’t hired to get these things right. Neal’s refusal to work out, even at his pro day, should have raised red flags. Schoen doesn’t get bonus points because Dallas MAY have wanted him too.
And I agree with all of your comments on Neal, he is by all accounts, a good teammate and a hard worker. He just may be too top-heavy to be an NFL OT.
There was a picture of Jerry and his son sitting in front of their board. It identified Thibodeaux as their #1 rated player and Neal as their #2 rated player.
It was blurred out a bit, but not only did the BBI sleuths figure it out but so did the beats.
Every draft pick is a mystery as to their outcome. A GM goes with the most highly rated player they have scouted. Seeing as how the Cowboys rarely miss on oline, it is just another confirmation that Evan Neal deserved the rating he was given.
Yes the GM is responsible for his picks. But Neal was not some schmoe that they were taking a chance on. He was a highly rated player from an elite winning program with excellent credentials.
Thanks for that. I remember someone posting here about the Cowboys liking Neal, but didn’t remember the context. And I agree that many teams likely had Neal in their top 10, but the unwillingness to participate in any pre-draft event should have been a huge red flag. There were other good OT prospects available who did participate. Take one or trade back.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but you have to nail your top ten picks. I would think a red flag like that would move him down the board a bit.
Non-participate in Combine events? How did that do for Nabers and Harrison, and Williams and Daniels.
The Combine is a good event for 2nd tier players. 1st tier players have film which is far more important. I think more and more upper level players are avoiding the Combine.
Now, it'll be interesting if Lock starts at all and performs capably, if Jones will even play.
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In comment 16565680 section125 said:
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In comment 16565639 Section331 said:
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In comment 16565611 section125 said:
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In comment 16565587 Doubledeuce22 said:
Quote:
Here’s the fact with Schoen. He completely whiffed on the Barkley and DJ situation and not to mention whiffed on a high 1st round pick in Neal. His conviction on signing a 27 year old RB to big money should have been his exact sentiment the year before. He should have let Barkley walk the year before and tagged DJ coming off of 1 decent season. He put his eggs in the DJ basket and is getting roasted by it. I wouldn’t give up on Schoen and Dabs until they got to groom their own QB but if they win 5 games this season you know it’s going to get hot on that seat and to me it’s their own fault.
I can agree on Jones/Barkley even if it isn't as simple as you make it out to be.
You are mostly wrong on your Neal take. Neal was not some reach OT that nobody expected to be taken in the top 10. He was #1 on the Cowboys board. Neal has been derailed by injuries which have crippled his development. Think of how Phil Simms was viewed 4 years into his career between multiple injuries and tons on INTs.
I also do not think Bobby Johnson did him any favors as coach. I am still hopeful that Carmen Bricillo can reach him.
IMHO, Neal was the correct pick at #7(yes over Wilson) and he had the credentials to be that pick. He is a hard working player, smart. powerful and somewhat athletic who has poor technique. Combined with injuries he simply has not developed.
Are we so sure about that Cowboys report? I know it’s been cited ad nauseam here, but has it been confirmed? And even if true, whoopdedoo, Schoen is still responsible. Look, I wanted Neal in the draft, but I wasn’t hired to get these things right. Neal’s refusal to work out, even at his pro day, should have raised red flags. Schoen doesn’t get bonus points because Dallas MAY have wanted him too.
And I agree with all of your comments on Neal, he is by all accounts, a good teammate and a hard worker. He just may be too top-heavy to be an NFL OT.
There was a picture of Jerry and his son sitting in front of their board. It identified Thibodeaux as their #1 rated player and Neal as their #2 rated player.
It was blurred out a bit, but not only did the BBI sleuths figure it out but so did the beats.
Every draft pick is a mystery as to their outcome. A GM goes with the most highly rated player they have scouted. Seeing as how the Cowboys rarely miss on oline, it is just another confirmation that Evan Neal deserved the rating he was given.
Yes the GM is responsible for his picks. But Neal was not some schmoe that they were taking a chance on. He was a highly rated player from an elite winning program with excellent credentials.
Thanks for that. I remember someone posting here about the Cowboys liking Neal, but didn’t remember the context. And I agree that many teams likely had Neal in their top 10, but the unwillingness to participate in any pre-draft event should have been a huge red flag. There were other good OT prospects available who did participate. Take one or trade back.
I know hindsight is 20/20, but you have to nail your top ten picks. I would think a red flag like that would move him down the board a bit.
Non-participate in Combine events? How did that do for Nabers and Harrison, and Williams and Daniels.
The Combine is a good event for 2nd tier players. 1st tier players have film which is far more important. I think more and more upper level players are avoiding the Combine.
I’m not talking about the Combine, Neal refused to work out at his own pro day. The only one you mentioned who didn’t was MHJ Jr, who was as blue chip as you’re going to find.
I’m not talking about the Combine, Neal refused to work out at his own pro day. The only one you mentioned who didn’t was MHJ Jr, who was as blue chip as you’re going to find.
Neal wasn't blue chip? You are right Nabers did go.
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I’m not talking about the Combine, Neal refused to work out at his own pro day. The only one you mentioned who didn’t was MHJ Jr, who was as blue chip as you’re going to find.
Neal wasn't blue chip? You are right Nabers did go.
I don’t think he was. MHJ Jr was one of the more hyped WR’s to come out in years, Neal played 3 positions in 3 years. Now that versatility is valuable, but I think a blue chip OT would have been locked in at LT early on, even at a program like Bama.
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In comment 16565449 section125 said:
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Perhaps if the Giants had the talent on the roster that the 49ers have, they would.
When the roster is complete and they don't have holes everywhere, then they could/should throw a pick to the wind on a QB.
The biggest hole on the team is arguably QB. And as others have stated ad nauseum, our handsome GM has refused to draft one for three drafts.
Sorry, but building the team first, and hoping you get that so right many QBs could function well on it, is not the best approach. The 9ers are a complete outlier for that blueprint...
Sorry, but you are wrong. You can build a winning team with VG players around a mediocre QB easier, than finding a superstar QB and then build the team.
In order to do the latter, you have to suck enough to get the #1 or #2(maybe #3) pick in a year where there are a couple franchise QBs. If you suck that bad, it takes quite a while to build the team to support him, if he doesn't get killed 1st.
Just because you get the franchise QB doesn't mean you have enough around him to make the final 4 - look at Herbert and Allen. Personally I think Herbert is overrated on BBI. He had excellent WRs and has barely made the playoffs.
Also, let's look at current examples:
Tua is a good, not special, QB with a VG team around him
Hurts is a good, not special, QB with an excellent team around him
Dak is a good QB, probably not special QB, with an excellent team around him
Goff is a good, not special QB, with a building VG team
Now each one of those is a better QB than Jones. Now put any of those QB in place of Jones with the weapons the Giants have now. How do you feel?
I don't get why people do this. Put any one of those QBs with our team and I'm excited about the potential of the season. As it is right now I'm dreading watching another wasted year where we bet too much on a QB that we should have already stopped betting on at all.
Any intelligent team francises him or lets him test the market last year.
We are not an intelligent team. And people can throw out all the thought exercises they want. Jones is not a QB that should get anyone excited that isn't living in a delusion.
Giants fans would love to be excited about our QB, no one has any personal disklike of Jones. It's his play on the field that is gross.
What you want to say about a QB is "that guy gives us a chance to win any game"
With Jones it is the opposite. He gives us a chance to lose any game.
I don't think that about the other QBs you named.