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What Do We Think Of The 2 DL 'Starting Defense'?

Trainmaster : 8/4/2024 5:02 pm
Quote:
The Giant Take Podcast
@TheGiantTakePod

Starting Defense Today:

DT Dexter Lawrence
DT Ryder Anderson
EDGE Brian Burns
EDGE Kayvon Thibodeaux
LB Bobby Okereke
LB Isaiah Simmons
CB Dru Phillips
CB Deonte Banks
CB Cordale Flott
S Jason Pinnock
S Dane Belton


First, this "starting defense" seems like it will be the typical 3rd and long defensive personnel, not a 1st down defense necessarily.

I understand the classic 3-4 (80s, early 90s) versus 4-3 (mid 90s through mid 10s) defenses that Giants employed are not the same clear distinction in player body type, size etc. in today's defenses. The relatively new term "Edge" is part of that change.

Quote:
From the Roster section, key Defensive Linemen:

99 Jordan Phillips DT 6-6 330
98 D.J. Davidson DT 6-5 320
90 Ryder Anderson DT 6-6 280
91 Casey Rogers DT 6-5 305
97 Dexter Lawrence NT 6-4 340
93 Rakeem Nunez-Roches NT 6-2 305
95 Jordon Riley NT 6-5 315


and key OLB from Linebackers:

Quote:
0 Brian Burns OLB 6-5 250
5 Kayvon Thibodeaux OLB 6-5 258
51 Azeez Ojulari OLB 6-3 240
55 Boogie Basham OLB 6-3 274
45 Tomon Fox OLB 6-2 245


Given my 80s Giants bias, the defensive linemen in a classic 3-4 are all 300+ pounders. In my very limited detailed knowledge, in a classic 3-4 the defensive linemen play "2 Gap" and hence need for "beef" to regularly take on double teams. Leonard Marshall, Eric Dorsey etc.

The classic 4-3 the linemen play a "1 Gap", right? Don't need quite as much beef. Ryder Anderson doesn't seem to have the beef (i.e. much less than 300+ lbs) to play a classic 2 Gap I'd assume. I'm probably traumatized from Winks playing 2 DL on obvious running downs with Dex getting double teamed and the Giants giving up huge yardage.

When I look at size and weight of Thibs and Burns, I see guys that are very close to size and weight of some classic 4-3 defensive ends. Osi and particularly Strahan played in the 260s, maybe even high 250s late in his career I believe.

Based on this review, it seems to me that Bowen's likely 3rd down defense should be more thought of as a 4-3, with Thibs and Burns more playing a defensive end role. Is this a 2 Gap or 1 Gap defense in this alignment?

I think I heard Bowen say his defense is a 3-4. So my guess is on first and second downs, we'll see a more classic 3-4 look, with three DLs along with Thibs and Burns, Okereke at MLB/ILB and either McFadden as a true 3-4 ILB or in some situations, Simmons as the ILB/3rd Safety ("Money")?

I know I'm getting hung up on the older, more strictly distinct 1 Gap 4-3 versus 2 Gap 3-4 definitions, which are more blurred today.

I am a little concerned that other than maybe Basher, the Giants really don't have Edge players beyond Burns and Thibs to play the Edge/4-3 DE role.

Bottom line after reviewing the roster height and weight of the key front 7 personnel, I'm less concerned with the DT Dex, DT ??? Edge Thibs, Edge Burns alignment on 3rd down.

Anyway, my two cents. I appreciate corrections / other thoughts.
This isn’t new  
Jaenyg : 8/4/2024 5:21 pm : link
We were probably in this lineup more than any other last year. Teams do jot 3 WRs out there on first down.
Never been a fan of the wide 9  
j_rud : 8/4/2024 5:45 pm : link
I know Bowens defenses in Tenn featured strong run D, but aside from Dex and Okereke I don't think we have the horses.
Ryder Anderson  
Jon In NYC : 8/4/2024 5:58 pm : link
becoming a good, reliable DL would be huge for this team.
Leonard Marshall  
FGiant : 8/4/2024 6:11 pm : link
Leonard Marshall DE-DT 6-3, 288lb did play pretty well.
...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 8/4/2024 6:22 pm : link
I actually think the defense will be pretty good. Dex, Burns, Bobby O, Thibs, & Banks are all legit players. I'm also probably higher on Pinnock than most...I think he can be really good.

I think the defense will keep up in a lot of games.
RE: Leonard Marshall DE-DT 6-3, 288lb did play pretty well.  
Trainmaster : 8/4/2024 6:47 pm : link
Fair point, but linemen today, in general, are larger than they were in the 80s and 90s.

Look at "Jumbo Elliott" 6' 7" 308 lbs. In that era, 300 lbs offensive linemen were a rarity as I recall.
I get the john Mendenhall vibe  
xman : 8/4/2024 9:39 pm : link
with Chatman
From what I've read here  
Bill in UT : 8/4/2024 9:41 pm : link
Ryder Anderson has bulked up to over 300 lbs
RE: From what I've read here  
Bill in UT : 8/4/2024 9:43 pm : link
In comment 16568313 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
Ryder Anderson has bulked up to over 300 lbs


He's still listed on Giants.com as 280. Eric, what the story?
Lots of bbiers  
AROCK1000 : 8/4/2024 9:45 pm : link
Cried about Wink and his 2-5-4
That isn't the base defense  
ElitoCanton : 8/4/2024 9:52 pm : link
That is the defense you will see largely against 11 personnel.
RE: Never been a fan of the wide 9  
JoeSchoens11 : 8/5/2024 7:16 am : link
In comment 16568209 j_rud said:
Quote:
I know Bowens defenses in Tenn featured strong run D, but aside from Dex and Okereke I don't think we have the horses.
That’s exactly how I see it. If we had a JPP or OV (or both) we could hold up pretty well. But having KT and Burns out there with Simmons in run support seems like a really, really bad base run defense.
Until we see teams  
Blueworm : 8/5/2024 9:29 am : link
Open and stay with 22 personnel, the days of those defenses are gone.
I thought Bowen told the scouts  
jeff57 : 8/5/2024 4:43 pm : link
On Hard Knocks that he played a 3-4.
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