he's still an UDFA rookie and tne DL looks thin with only 5 guys. Dex is a likely HOF talent but we're missing both Big Cat and A'Shawn from opening day last year. Chatman is the only new blood on the 53. Nunez-Roches has been elevated to starter this year. He seems adequate and I giess that is a complement. Counting on Davidson and Riley, as young players, to improve I guess.
We seem thin and I sure hope we don't get injuries.
Low expectations for the 4 non-Dex guys. Can anyone think pf examples of an UDFA rookie DT having an impact?
I am more "worried" about the ILB situation with everyone (except Okereke) seemingly hurt. I think defense will be a bit porous to begin with.
Also, when looking at roster depth, you have to consider the PS. All of those guys are there for a reason and there’s more talent there then we’ve had in a long time.
I am more "worried" about the ILB situation with everyone (except Okereke) seemingly hurt. I think defense will be a bit porous to begin with.
Really? It's just a numbers thing. We have 5 guys for 3 positions. Now, yes, we'll see a lot of 4 man fronts and not necessarily 5 man but that is very thin. Meanwhile, we have a ton of ILB for 2 spots when we may be using just 1. I understand the injuries at ILB but you have to see why people are comcerned.
What? Dex got abused? When was this?
Based on the pecking order, the coaches clearly seemed to like Davidson more than Jordon Riley. Those two are the back-ups to Dexter at NT.
Chatman is more of the 3-technique back-up at the other spot. Ideally, they would have liked to have drafted someone here too, but they only had six picks and the DTs dried up pretty quickly in the draft.
Quote:
at DT. Nacho is not a bad player and they have some younger guys that they need to develop. Chatman stood out. Players only get better playing and there will be growing pains. Nobody has two Dexter Lawrences. Every team is thin some place.
I am more "worried" about the ILB situation with everyone (except Okereke) seemingly hurt. I think defense will be a bit porous to begin with.
Really? It's just a numbers thing. We have 5 guys for 3 positions. Now, yes, we'll see a lot of 4 man fronts and not necessarily 5 man but that is very thin. Meanwhile, we have a ton of ILB for 2 spots when we may be using just 1. I understand the injuries at ILB but you have to see why people are comcerned.
I have not seen 3 DTs on the field in three years. It has been 2 down DL. Basically, they play a 4-3 with two DTs and 2 OLB/ER/DE (call it what you want).
5 men for 2 positions. But if you want to say 5 men for 3 positions that is fine too, because it would be for only 2 downs.
Defense has:
2 DT
2 OLB
2 ILB
2 CB
2 Safety
1 Slot CB
Oline
DB
QB
Pass Rush
LB
because it would mean all of those positions passed the test, that would be amazing.
Quote:
Top teams almost always have a great DL rotation. Is Dex going to get abused again this year with playing near 90% of the snaps like he did not too long ago?
What? Dex got abused? When was this?
Do you think having a DT play this much is a good thing? The Giants didn't think so and knew it was an issue and changed it. So, yes, he was abused this year.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 16593698 section125 said:
Quote:
at DT. Nacho is not a bad player and they have some younger guys that they need to develop. Chatman stood out. Players only get better playing and there will be growing pains. Nobody has two Dexter Lawrences. Every team is thin some place.
I am more "worried" about the ILB situation with everyone (except Okereke) seemingly hurt. I think defense will be a bit porous to begin with.
Really? It's just a numbers thing. We have 5 guys for 3 positions. Now, yes, we'll see a lot of 4 man fronts and not necessarily 5 man but that is very thin. Meanwhile, we have a ton of ILB for 2 spots when we may be using just 1. I understand the injuries at ILB but you have to see why people are comcerned.
I have not seen 3 DTs on the field in three years. It has been 2 down DL. Basically, they play a 4-3 with two DTs and 2 OLB/ER/DE (call it what you want).
5 men for 2 positions. But if you want to say 5 men for 3 positions that is fine too, because it would be for only 2 downs.
Defense has:
2 DT
2 OLB
2 ILB
2 CB
2 Safety
1 Slot CB
I guess you don't watch games.
Tell that to Aaron Donald. Chatman is short, but has very long arms and is extremely strong - coach Patterson said maybe the strongest player on the team. And don't come back and tell me about comparing a rookie to Donald. Just comparing size and body type. Not even thinking about ability.
Dex did not play 95% snaps last year, not even close.
Davidson is ahead of Riley for now. I trust Patterson's eye for talent and ability to develop these players.
To my mind, it's the CB situation that may be the weakest link.
Quote:
In comment 16593707 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16593698 section125 said:
Quote:
at DT. Nacho is not a bad player and they have some younger guys that they need to develop. Chatman stood out. Players only get better playing and there will be growing pains. Nobody has two Dexter Lawrences. Every team is thin some place.
I am more "worried" about the ILB situation with everyone (except Okereke) seemingly hurt. I think defense will be a bit porous to begin with.
Really? It's just a numbers thing. We have 5 guys for 3 positions. Now, yes, we'll see a lot of 4 man fronts and not necessarily 5 man but that is very thin. Meanwhile, we have a ton of ILB for 2 spots when we may be using just 1. I understand the injuries at ILB but you have to see why people are comcerned.
I have not seen 3 DTs on the field in three years. It has been 2 down DL. Basically, they play a 4-3 with two DTs and 2 OLB/ER/DE (call it what you want).
5 men for 2 positions. But if you want to say 5 men for 3 positions that is fine too, because it would be for only 2 downs.
Defense has:
2 DT
2 OLB
2 ILB
2 CB
2 Safety
1 Slot CB
I guess you don't watch games.
Where am I wrong? Tell me what I listed isn't the standard defense the Giants have put on the field and the absolute reason why Wink couldn't stop the run.
I watch all the games and cannot recall seeing 3 DTs on the field and if it happened it was rare. I keep hearing about a 3-4 defense and all I see is 5 or 6 DBs in the game, which means there are only 2 down DTs.
Right. I like DJ. I saw a guy who was developing nicely. I still have hopes he will develop into a starter.
Lawrence - 37
Nunez Roches - 27
Williams - 32
Robinson - 20
Riley - 17
Quote:
In comment 16593712 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16593707 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 16593698 section125 said:
Quote:
at DT. Nacho is not a bad player and they have some younger guys that they need to develop. Chatman stood out. Players only get better playing and there will be growing pains. Nobody has two Dexter Lawrences. Every team is thin some place.
I am more "worried" about the ILB situation with everyone (except Okereke) seemingly hurt. I think defense will be a bit porous to begin with.
Really? It's just a numbers thing. We have 5 guys for 3 positions. Now, yes, we'll see a lot of 4 man fronts and not necessarily 5 man but that is very thin. Meanwhile, we have a ton of ILB for 2 spots when we may be using just 1. I understand the injuries at ILB but you have to see why people are comcerned.
I have not seen 3 DTs on the field in three years. It has been 2 down DL. Basically, they play a 4-3 with two DTs and 2 OLB/ER/DE (call it what you want).
5 men for 2 positions. But if you want to say 5 men for 3 positions that is fine too, because it would be for only 2 downs.
Defense has:
2 DT
2 OLB
2 ILB
2 CB
2 Safety
1 Slot CB
I guess you don't watch games.
Where am I wrong? Tell me what I listed isn't the standard defense the Giants have put on the field and the absolute reason why Wink couldn't stop the run.
I watch all the games and cannot recall seeing 3 DTs on the field and if it happened it was rare. I keep hearing about a 3-4 defense and all I see is 5 or 6 DBs in the game, which means there are only 2 down DTs.
Because both Wink and Bowen's base is a 3-4. That doesn't mean that is all they play. What a base defense means is that is where you start teaching the defense and adjust from there. Question for you, when Wink took over from Graham, where did Dex play? Ne never played over the nose under Graham and did under Wink. You don't play over the nose with 4 DL. Yes, teams take a DL off the field for sub packages. However, we didn't suck at stopping the run because we onoy had two DL on the field. I seriously don't know what you watched the last two years but we absolutely had 3 DL on the field. Right now we have 5 DL. So, again, it is a numbers game. It is not ideal but we know the situation we are in. This isn't a finished product but you can bet if there is a DL available early in the draft or in FA, that player will be a consideration. Look at their interest this year in hard knocks. It came down to a DT or Burns. They chose Burns. Just like corner, we have work to do.
I watch all the games and cannot recall seeing 3 DTs on the field and if it happened it was rare. I keep hearing about a 3-4 defense and all I see is 5 or 6 DBs in the game, which means there are only 2 down DTs.
Before the Williams trade they had 3 DL out 34% of the time, after 28%, so not the base but not completely rare either.
Quote:
I watch all the games and cannot recall seeing 3 DTs on the field and if it happened it was rare. I keep hearing about a 3-4 defense and all I see is 5 or 6 DBs in the game, which means there are only 2 down DTs.
Before the Williams trade they had 3 DL out 34% of the time, after 28%, so not the base but not completely rare either.
The stats should prove it to me, But I do not remember DexLaw, LeoW and another big body(I mean a real DT/DE type) on the field at the same time. I do remember Thibs, Ojulari, Ward or Boogie Basham out there all the time.
Now if you say the Basham or Ward actually were playing DE(3-4 style) and they only counted Thibs as the OLB then ok. But then that is not a 3-4, that is a 3-3-5.
I know it is semantics with the nomenclature of 3-4 etc and defense are more sophisticated than straight up 4-3 or 3-4. However, the Giants have not put 3 / 300+ lbs DL on the field in a while.
So my point is the 5 guys they have as NT/DT is plenty because their DEs are really more OLBs.
The base D will be:
Burns - DeLaw - Nacho - Thibs
Okereke - McFadden
Banks - Phillips- Pinnock- Nubin(Belton) - Flott(Jackson)
Methinks you know not what you are talking about. Chatman will not disappoint….I wouldn’t worry about him….Davidson, Riley….maybe worry about them instead…..
I keep seeing this narrative on here and it may play out this way where the young guys dont play well but people keep saying the Giants dont have a lot of tslent or there is no depth...
Its not deoth or no talent, its just very young talent and its not proven...you arent going to have proven talent at every position and depth at every position..
Quote:
In comment 16593730 section125 said:
Quote:
I watch all the games and cannot recall seeing 3 DTs on the field and if it happened it was rare. I keep hearing about a 3-4 defense and all I see is 5 or 6 DBs in the game, which means there are only 2 down DTs.
Before the Williams trade they had 3 DL out 34% of the time, after 28%, so not the base but not completely rare either.
The stats should prove it to me, But I do not remember DexLaw, LeoW and another big body(I mean a real DT/DE type) on the field at the same time. I do remember Thibs, Ojulari, Ward or Boogie Basham out there all the time.
Nope, doesn't count Ward or Basham. Here is the combos for week 9 after the Williams trade as an example
Ashawn-RNR-Dex-DJ: 1
Ashawn-RNR-Dex:8
Ashawn-RNR-DJ:8
Ashawn-DJ:2
Ashawn-Dex:11
Dex-RNR:10
RNR-DJ:8
Dex:12
That comes out to
4DL:1(1.67%)
3DL:16(26.67%)
2DL:31(51.67%)
1DL:12(20%)
Nope, doesn't count Ward or Basham. Here is the combos for week 9 after the Williams trade as an example
Ashawn-RNR-Dex-DJ: 1
Ashawn-RNR-Dex:8
Ashawn-RNR-DJ:8
Ashawn-DJ:2
Ashawn-Dex:11
Dex-RNR:10
RNR-DJ:8
Dex:12
That comes out to
4DL:1(1.67%)
3DL:16(26.67%)
2DL:31(51.67%)
1DL:12(20%)
Thanks for the stats.
Quote:
In comment 16593738 Blue Baas said:
Quote:
In comment 16593730 section125 said:
Quote:
I watch all the games and cannot recall seeing 3 DTs on the field and if it happened it was rare. I keep hearing about a 3-4 defense and all I see is 5 or 6 DBs in the game, which means there are only 2 down DTs.
Before the Williams trade they had 3 DL out 34% of the time, after 28%, so not the base but not completely rare either.
The stats should prove it to me, But I do not remember DexLaw, LeoW and another big body(I mean a real DT/DE type) on the field at the same time. I do remember Thibs, Ojulari, Ward or Boogie Basham out there all the time.
Nope, doesn't count Ward or Basham. Here is the combos for week 9 after the Williams trade as an example
Ashawn-RNR-Dex-DJ: 1
Ashawn-RNR-Dex:8
Ashawn-RNR-DJ:8
Ashawn-DJ:2
Ashawn-Dex:11
Dex-RNR:10
RNR-DJ:8
Dex:12
That comes out to
4DL:1(1.67%)
3DL:16(26.67%)
2DL:31(51.67%)
1DL:12(20%)
Did Ojulari play that game? How many of those 3 DT lineups had only 1 edge? How many had 2?
if they only had 1 edge on the field than it wasnt a 3-4 and if Ojulari was out it was probably out of necessity with 3 DL...
Also who were they playing?
its also taken completely out of context, doesnt mention if Ojulari played or how many of those 3 down linrman lineups had 2 edge or 1 edge on the field
Quote:
Nope, doesn't count Ward or Basham. Here is the combos for week 9 after the Williams trade as an example
Ashawn-RNR-Dex-DJ: 1
Ashawn-RNR-Dex:8
Ashawn-RNR-DJ:8
Ashawn-DJ:2
Ashawn-Dex:11
Dex-RNR:10
RNR-DJ:8
Dex:12
That comes out to
4DL:1(1.67%)
3DL:16(26.67%)
2DL:31(51.67%)
1DL:12(20%)
Thanks for the stats.
No problem, I know where you are coming from.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/qotloYDHppM
Link - ( New Window )
So?
You have to have young players on rookie contracts to keep costs down. Young players have to play. You play them knowing they will show their inexperience. Sometimes they'll break your heart.
But then, in a few months or next season, they stop being inexperienced and play like veterans. You do that with 10 young players and—if they develop—you have a better team down the road. You fail to develop young players, you're constantly overpaying for veteran free agents. We've seen that for what seems like forever.
The kid played his heart out and won a job. He's a developmental guy right now, but you have to let him develop. That's not going to happen in practice. Bite the bullet and play the kid, knowing it's going to hurt at times.
Off the top of my head I can’t remember how many DL we had on the 53 last year.
Quote:
Size and Length when you talking the interior DL. His deficiencies will show up on tape when we go against run heavy teams. Relying solely on Dexter Lawrence for the 3rd straight year to play 95%+ of the snaps is going wear him down quickly!
Tell that to Aaron Donald. Chatman is short, but has very long arms and is extremely strong - coach Patterson said maybe the strongest player on the team. And don't come back and tell me about comparing a rookie to Donald. Just comparing size and body type. Not even thinking about ability.
Dex did not play 95% snaps last year, not even close.
He has 'very long arms'? They are less than 33 inches. I think Chatman is intriguing, but people need to temper their excitement a little. He made a great play running down the ball carrier. But his one sack was a coverage sack. He had 2 solo tackles and 3 assists. Most of his plays were 'hustle' or 'effort' plays. That's good, but he was also playing against a lot of guys who won't be suiting up this weekend. And there were a lot of plays where he just didn't quite get there.
And please stop with the Donald comparisons until he does something worth it other than being short? Donald had 29.5 sacks in FOUR years and 51 games at Pitt. Chatman had 13.5 in FIVE years and 60 games at SMU. His top year was 4.5. Donald's worst total as a starter was 5.5 sacks and twice had 11.
Quote:
In comment 16593718 bluewave said:
Quote:
Size and Length when you talking the interior DL. His deficiencies will show up on tape when we go against run heavy teams. Relying solely on Dexter Lawrence for the 3rd straight year to play 95%+ of the snaps is going wear him down quickly!
Tell that to Aaron Donald. Chatman is short, but has very long arms and is extremely strong - coach Patterson said maybe the strongest player on the team. And don't come back and tell me about comparing a rookie to Donald. Just comparing size and body type. Not even thinking about ability.
Dex did not play 95% snaps last year, not even close.
He has 'very long arms'? They are less than 33 inches. I think Chatman is intriguing, but people need to temper their excitement a little. He made a great play running down the ball carrier. But his one sack was a coverage sack. He had 2 solo tackles and 3 assists. Most of his plays were 'hustle' or 'effort' plays. That's good, but he was also playing against a lot of guys who won't be suiting up this weekend. And there were a lot of plays where he just didn't quite get there.
And please stop with the Donald comparisons until he does something worth it other than being short? Donald had 29.5 sacks in FOUR years and 51 games at Pitt. Chatman had 13.5 in FIVE years and 60 games at SMU. His top year was 4.5. Donald's worst total as a starter was 5.5 sacks and twice had 11.
I guess reading comprehension is an issue with you? I clearly said I was comparing Chatman's size with Donald, not his ability. Is that too hard to comprehend?
33 inch arms on a 6 footer are long. HIs short stature gets him up and underneath the pads of taller OL.
I haven't a clue as to how he will do, but don't undersell him because of his height was the message.
Quote:
In comment 16593725 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 16593718 bluewave said:
Quote:
Size and Length when you talking the interior DL. His deficiencies will show up on tape when we go against run heavy teams. Relying solely on Dexter Lawrence for the 3rd straight year to play 95%+ of the snaps is going wear him down quickly!
Tell that to Aaron Donald. Chatman is short, but has very long arms and is extremely strong - coach Patterson said maybe the strongest player on the team. And don't come back and tell me about comparing a rookie to Donald. Just comparing size and body type. Not even thinking about ability.
Dex did not play 95% snaps last year, not even close.
He has 'very long arms'? They are less than 33 inches. I think Chatman is intriguing, but people need to temper their excitement a little. He made a great play running down the ball carrier. But his one sack was a coverage sack. He had 2 solo tackles and 3 assists. Most of his plays were 'hustle' or 'effort' plays. That's good, but he was also playing against a lot of guys who won't be suiting up this weekend. And there were a lot of plays where he just didn't quite get there.
And please stop with the Donald comparisons until he does something worth it other than being short? Donald had 29.5 sacks in FOUR years and 51 games at Pitt. Chatman had 13.5 in FIVE years and 60 games at SMU. His top year was 4.5. Donald's worst total as a starter was 5.5 sacks and twice had 11.
I guess reading comprehension is an issue with you? I clearly said I was comparing Chatman's size with Donald, not his ability. Is that too hard to comprehend?
33 inch arms on a 6 footer are long. HIs short stature gets him up and underneath the pads of taller OL.
I haven't a clue as to how he will do, but don't undersell him because of his height was the message.
Well, you didn't say he has long arms for someone 5-10, you said he has 'very long arms'. His arms may be 'long' for someone 5-11, but they aren't very long, or even long, when considering average defensive tackles.
My comment about the Donald comparisons wasn't just for you, but for everyone who keeps bringing that up. But bringing up 6-1 Donald as an example of why 5-11 Chatman can be good and saying you're not comparing talent is pretty silly. The entire comparison is based on success being based on talent, not size.
Bingo.
Step one, get a contract. Step two, make the cut. Step three be productive at the position.