Joe Schoen cameo on the season finale of Hard Knocks

And I'll keep telling you as long as the Giants are stupid enough to keep trotting this bullshit out.

I am certain Mbavaro is a dupe of a long time poster. gidie owes me a favor - how about outing this one?

In comment 16594986 HBart said:

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In comment 16594974 SFGFNCGiantsFan said: Quote: In comment 16594931 Go Terps said: Quote: It's irritating when comps are made to unrelated players or situations to make a point. The NFL has been around a century; you can find a comp to support any claim. Phil Simms getting off to a slow start has nothing to do with Daniel Jones. Blaine Gabbert got off to a slow start too...why not cite him? It is amazing how some either don’t get this or just use this to comfort themselves about Jones. But I’m part of the non DJ ‘ilk’ so…🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️. You guys are that dense? A high drafted QB's career arc is unrelated to the one before him which is unrelated to one before that? And, since you brought it up, same with tackle. Damn...that's like mental depleted uranium.

I guess that answers my question as far as whether your misleading and intellectually dishonest post earlier was intentional or not.

Name-calling is a lazier alternative than doing any sort of contextualization with era-adjusted indexing, right?

In comment 16595041 Go Terps said:

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And I'll keep telling you as long as the Giants are stupid enough to keep trotting this bullshit out. I am certain Mbavaro is a dupe of a long time poster. gidie owes me a favor - how about outing this one?

Nice spin and incorrect on calling me a dupe
Ask Eric if I’m a dupe if you are so confident
And that doesn’t change the fact that you do literally repeat the SAME exact thing day after day after day

What the F do you literally hope to accomplish by repeating the same thing on multiple threads literally every single day?

Bizarre behavior

In comment 16595025 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16594994 Snorkels said: Quote: ... that Schoen and the Giants can walk and chew gum at the same time. Is it possible that the Giants are fully aware of what Jones' limitations are and would dearly add an elite QB if they could but are realists at the same time and realize a) that elite QBs are effing hard to find but that b) given the actual options they have had, Jones remains their best option to win games, especially if provided with a better supporting cast. If that's the case they'd better win games in 2024. But truthfully if they concluded that Jones/Lock/DeVito was their best option to win games in 2024 I wonder if they can chew gum and walk at the same time. There is no excuse for paying $54M for this group of QBs in 2024.

So basically if they win you are still going to say they are wrong and if they lose well obviously you will be here to tell us how you were right....

So either way you are right...Nice way for you to lay it out

Let's try and get to the nature of the argument without the insults.

I *think* the purpose of a comparative argument is to glean probability. Something like: given the various challenges Simms, Manning, and Jones faced early in their career, does that the first two won a Super Bowl indicate there is a chance Jones will?

I think there is a non-zero chance Jones wins a Super Bowl in his career. Probably somewhere less than .01%.

The only empirical tether between the three is they are quarterbacks and they play for the Giants. Completely different era, completely different league, completely different rules, completely different roster, and completely different staff.

And there is how Simms and Manning overcame their challenges. Simms came in 2nd in OROY voting and then had a comedy of injuries. Manning's ceiling was a good regular season quarterback who blossomed into a great quarterback against the best teams in 2007, including arguably the best team ever.

So now let's factor that in if the comparables are relevant to the argument. What is the probability Jones markedly improves his durability, is consistently a good regular quarterback, and elevates his game to greatness throughout 4 playoff games?

In comment 16594994 Snorkels said:

Quote:

... that Schoen and the Giants can walk and chew gum at the same time. Is it possible that the Giants are fully aware of what Jones' limitations are and would dearly add an elite QB if they could but are realists at the same time and realize a) that elite QBs are effing hard to find but that b) given the actual options they have had, Jones remains their best option to win games, especially if provided with a better supporting cast.

elite QBs are hard to find which is why the giants should start trying to find one.

Of course Schoen and Daboll believe Jones was their best available option and can win.

What everyone is disagreeing with is whether that is true.

What confounds me is that idea that QBs better than Daniel Jones are hard to find. You don't exactly need to land Joe Montana to upgrade.

In comment 16594965 Snorkels said:

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In comment 16594961 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 16594936 MOOPS said: Quote: Eli had an OL and receivers. Just sayin. Ok. What should we assume on the inverse? That Eli would be just as poor as Jones if he was QBing the team the last five seasons? Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin'

And the giants waited too long to replace him

In comment 16594994 Snorkels said:

Quote:

... that Schoen and the Giants can walk and chew gum at the same time. Is it possible that the Giants are fully aware of what Jones' limitations are and would dearly add an elite QB if they could but are realists at the same time and realize a) that elite QBs are effing hard to find but that b) given the actual options they have had, Jones remains their best option to win games, especially if provided with a better supporting cast.

elite QBs are hard to find which is why the giants should start trying to find one.

There is no guarantee once the Giants move on from Jones there will be a QB solution waiting for them.

This debate truly scraped the logical barrel often. The most important variable for an NFL team is whether you have a quarterback your staff can develop into a championship contender.

That doesn't dismiss the value of the pass targets, the run game, or the line. But it is the most important variable.

And if Nix, Penix, or JJM develop into a championship contender, and the Giants are still sitting on their dicks -- this says something about Daboll or Schoen.

For the giants not to draft any QB in the past 5 years.

His age/ injuries certainty factor in, but from a pure football point the best QB on the roster last year is now a Jet. They somehow downgraded the QB position from last year.

and hate club thing is moronic. The few posters who seem to use it the most don't even understand the QB position or offensive football very much.

In comment 16595146 Lines of Scrimmage said:

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and hate club thing is moronic. The few posters who seem to use it the most don't even understand the QB position or offensive football very much.

The truth is there is no DJ fan club here or anywhere. However, there are Giants' fans who live in the real world who are cheering fr him because he's the Giants QB this year. The whole DJFC is supposed to be an insult made up and peddled by the likes of the crowd that has once again taken over yet another thread with their incessant whining and bleating who are like little pampered princes mad because they didn't get their way.

There are number of BBIers who believe Jones is a good quarterback, and has been on the losing end of bad coaching and bad team construction.

That's not a surprising or sensibility offending position, if defended with evidence and facts.

In comment 16594992 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 16594983 compton said: Quote: He did. Simms won a Wild Card game against the Rams in 84 and 'Skins in 85. Also, if Scott Brunner could lead them to a win against the Eagles in 1981, I feel pretty confident in saying that Simms would have as well.

I'm quite certain Scott Brunner couldn't lead the Giants to the playoff win against Minnesota.

In comment 16595156 Snorkels said:

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In comment 16595146 Lines of Scrimmage said: Quote: and hate club thing is moronic. The few posters who seem to use it the most don't even understand the QB position or offensive football very much. The truth is there is no DJ fan club here or anywhere. However, there are Giants' fans who live in the real world who are cheering fr him because he's the Giants QB this year. The whole DJFC is supposed to be an insult made up and peddled by the likes of the crowd that has once again taken over yet another thread with their incessant whining and bleating who are like little pampered princes mad because they didn't get their way.

The truth is there was and still is. Before it was because they blindly believed in anything NY Giants, so Jones was it.

Then when he struggled it was just blame the coaches, supporting cast or injuries. Anything other than realize and change your mind that you possibly could ever be wrong that he just sucks at QB.

Then he got paid and that was obviously a big mistake, so it became there weee no other options to push the mistake further down the road.

Now we are 6 years in and now it has become no one still is really DJ supporter posting here. Yet they are just waiting for Giants to finally like someone else better. But yet Schoen can’t get there so you all just wait. And wait.

However, it is same group that just can’t wait for DJ to have a 2td-200 yard game to raise the victory flag. Revenge Tour? Not that it something special in 2024 for a QB, but because it is the closest they can come to and say “see, I told you he was good”.

Good lord.

with many contentious posts is the indicator that there is a fan club.

The Giants OL has not been good. It has not been a starting caliber OL. This is obviously true. There are no arguments about this because there is nobody to argue with. There is no OL fan club.

The Giants QB has not been good. He is not a starting caliber QB. There are massive arguments about it. Because the bad QB has dedicated fans.

And the really catastrophic thing about it for people who care about the Giants being good is that we do try to improve the OL. We do not try to improve at QB.

And it's frustrating. Is it repetitive? Sure. But this has never happened. There has not been a fan base subjected to a QB as bad as Jones being handed the starting position for 6 straight years this century. Yeah, it's going to get people worked up.

In comment 16595089 Greg from LI said:

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What confounds me is that idea that QBs better than Daniel Jones are hard to find. You don't exactly need to land Joe Montana to upgrade.

That’s fair. But isn’t it also fair to not chase that qb at the expense of a talent like Nabers?

I don’t get the confusion. Far too many here act like there are half dozen ready made pro qbs in every draft. There aren’t and they sure as fuck aren’t after round 2. So you’re drafting the next tannenhill instead of nabers. You’re drafting the next DANIEL JONES instead of Thibs. You’re drafting the next Sam darnold instead of Nubin. Or maybe, maybe the next Dak which would be great.


And you know how it gets easier and easier to draft the next Dak or purdy or Romo or hurts??? By building a roster that will nurture and enable that QB. Just a theory. Call me crazy. It’s what I believe. The teams that steal that qb usually have a kick ass roster in place.

Landed on teams that were already good. Even going back to Dallas and Danny white. White was a 3rd round pick. He went on to have a damn good career even if he he never won a Super Bowl. He was drafted by a good team. This is just a theory I’m not trying to say you’re wrong I’m right. I wanna learn the secret sauce to the NFL and quarterback development, or at least try to. I feel like it’s the biggest mystery in pro sports and fans act like they know so much yet dozens of NFL GMs who know the game inside and out fail miserably at QB evaluating. Why? I think it’s timing more than anything else. You can’t tell me all these QBs coming out of college over the years, literally dozens and dozens of qbs that failed were all just bad football players who would fail no matter what or sucked, even in a vacuum. There’s something else going on. Something deeper. It’s timing. You can’t tell me that if the Falcons draft Joe Montana in 1979 he goes on to have the same career or even a quarter of the same career. You just can’t tell me that, there’s too many variables.

Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.

In comment 16595349 djm said:

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Landed on teams that were already good. Even going back to Dallas and Danny white. White was a 3rd round pick. He went on to have a damn good career even if he he never won a Super Bowl. He was drafted by a good team. This is just a theory I’m not trying to say you’re wrong I’m right. I wanna learn the secret sauce to the NFL and quarterback development, or at least try to. I feel like it’s the biggest mystery in pro sports and fans act like they know so much yet dozens of NFL GMs who know the game inside and out fail miserably at QB evaluating. Why? I think it’s timing more than anything else. You can’t tell me all these QBs coming out of college over the years, literally dozens and dozens of qbs that failed were all just bad football players who would fail no matter what or sucked, even in a vacuum. There’s something else going on. Something deeper. It’s timing. You can’t tell me that if the Falcons draft Joe Montana in 1979 he goes on to have the same career or even a quarter of the same career. You just can’t tell me that, there’s too many variables. Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.

Hypothetically let's say NYG have the #1 pick next year (yes I know realistically they won't)

Do you take a QB who may have a lower grade than the top 3 from this year or a WR who may be be graded higher than Nabers?

Nothing is black and white, and where a QB is drafted to also matters, but Sometimes you do know when a player is a bust early.

Jamarcus Russell was always going to fail, imo. Darnold, Rosen, Fields, Zack Wilson all failed quickly.

One of the best head coaches in the best built environment for success in pro football quit on Trey Lance immediately. Belichick got it wrong with Mac Jones. Vrabel got it wrong with Malik Willis.

Some guys need time. Not all of them. sometimes they fail on their own merit because they dont have it. We convince ourselves with hope that patience is logical and prudent. Coaches do it too. And sometimes its just optimism instead of pragmatism because none of this is exact or scientific.

In comment 16595349 djm said:

Quote:

Landed on teams that were already good. Even going back to Dallas and Danny white. White was a 3rd round pick. He went on to have a damn good career even if he he never won a Super Bowl. He was drafted by a good team. This is just a theory I’m not trying to say you’re wrong I’m right. I wanna learn the secret sauce to the NFL and quarterback development, or at least try to. I feel like it’s the biggest mystery in pro sports and fans act like they know so much yet dozens of NFL GMs who know the game inside and out fail miserably at QB evaluating. Why? I think it’s timing more than anything else. You can’t tell me all these QBs coming out of college over the years, literally dozens and dozens of qbs that failed were all just bad football players who would fail no matter what or sucked, even in a vacuum. There’s something else going on. Something deeper. It’s timing. You can’t tell me that if the Falcons draft Joe Montana in 1979 he goes on to have the same career or even a quarter of the same career. You just can’t tell me that, there’s too many variables. Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent.

Bingo!

Steve Young and Steve Bono both had success on an already established good team. We can then go over to the Jaguars QB's under Coughlin. Even Mahomes walked on to a team with two hall of fame talents in Kelce and Hill.

The established good teams are good in large part because they are run by intelligent people. Bill Walsh, who was as intelligent as anyone the NFL has seen, new that a QB was too valuable an asset to pass on even if you already had a good one.

So imagine what his reaction would be if he learned that a lousy QB like Daniel Jones was the roadblock to getting a QB.

In comment 16594668 Eric from BBI said:

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In comment 16594659 Chris684 said: Quote: Yet passed on 3 potential studs while our QB room actually got worse this offseason. And which "studs" are these?

Clearly I'm talking about Penix, Nix and McCarthy. Notice too, my use of the word potential so I'm recognizing there's no guarantee. But a shot worth taking if you're NYG, no? These guys went 2, 4 and 6 spots after we selected. The league feels they are potential studs as well.

In comment 16595056 Mbavaro said:

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In comment 16595041 Go Terps said: Quote: And I'll keep telling you as long as the Giants are stupid enough to keep trotting this bullshit out. I am certain Mbavaro is a dupe of a long time poster. gidie owes me a favor - how about outing this one? Nice spin and incorrect on calling me a dupe Ask Eric if I’m a dupe if you are so confident And that doesn’t change the fact that you do literally repeat the SAME exact thing day after day after day What the F do you literally hope to accomplish by repeating the same thing on multiple threads literally every single day? Bizarre behavior

I assume you intend this response for posters like HBart and Terps, since both of them say the exact same thing over and over again on all DJ threads?

Or does it not bother you when HBart does it because you view his posts as being logical arguments since you agree with them?

It's ok to be biased - everyone is to a degree. But there are no Dj threads on this board where Terps is posting over and over again and nobody is arguing with him. And it is not different people arguing with him.

In comment 16595354 Scooter185 said:

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In comment 16595349 djm said: Quote: Landed on teams that were already good. Even going back to Dallas and Danny white. White was a 3rd round pick. He went on to have a damn good career even if he he never won a Super Bowl. He was drafted by a good team. This is just a theory I’m not trying to say you’re wrong I’m right. I wanna learn the secret sauce to the NFL and quarterback development, or at least try to. I feel like it’s the biggest mystery in pro sports and fans act like they know so much yet dozens of NFL GMs who know the game inside and out fail miserably at QB evaluating. Why? I think it’s timing more than anything else. You can’t tell me all these QBs coming out of college over the years, literally dozens and dozens of qbs that failed were all just bad football players who would fail no matter what or sucked, even in a vacuum. There’s something else going on. Something deeper. It’s timing. You can’t tell me that if the Falcons draft Joe Montana in 1979 he goes on to have the same career or even a quarter of the same career. You just can’t tell me that, there’s too many variables. Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent. Hypothetically let's say NYG have the #1 pick next year (yes I know realistically they won't) Do you take a QB who may have a lower grade than the top 3 from this year or a WR who may be be graded higher than Nabers?

Depends — if the qb is highly rated enough where you think he can be the difference maker here you take him. I definitely think you should account for need and positional value at times but it depends on how high you rate that qb. Are we choosing between a qb prospect rated 85 and a DE rated 89? Is that QB “only” an 82?

If the qb is one you love you take him even if the other player is rated higher, but there’s exceptions. Nabers at 91 vs JJM or Nix at an 80 is tough to swallow especially if the staff might have jones at around a 76. Who knows but yes I’d take the qb if he was good enough. Im not that rigid and I don’t think most GMs are.

In comment 16595362 Go Terps said:

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The established good teams are good in large part because they are run by intelligent people. Bill Walsh, who was as intelligent as anyone the NFL has seen, new that a QB was too valuable an asset to pass on even if you already had a good one. So imagine what his reaction would be if he learned that a lousy QB like Daniel Jones was the roadblock to getting a QB.

There’s no road block In jones. The roadblock is availability and it’s been 3 drafts. One of which had no qbs in the top 10 (22) none good enough in the bottom 20s (23) and this last one which is really the only one you lose your mind over, and it’s been covered. Im not going back n forth. Have a good day.

In comment 16595361 Giantsbigblue said:

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In comment 16595349 djm said: Quote: Landed on teams that were already good. Even going back to Dallas and Danny white. White was a 3rd round pick. He went on to have a damn good career even if he he never won a Super Bowl. He was drafted by a good team. This is just a theory I’m not trying to say you’re wrong I’m right. I wanna learn the secret sauce to the NFL and quarterback development, or at least try to. I feel like it’s the biggest mystery in pro sports and fans act like they know so much yet dozens of NFL GMs who know the game inside and out fail miserably at QB evaluating. Why? I think it’s timing more than anything else. You can’t tell me all these QBs coming out of college over the years, literally dozens and dozens of qbs that failed were all just bad football players who would fail no matter what or sucked, even in a vacuum. There’s something else going on. Something deeper. It’s timing. You can’t tell me that if the Falcons draft Joe Montana in 1979 he goes on to have the same career or even a quarter of the same career. You just can’t tell me that, there’s too many variables. Doesn’t mean I am bypassing the QB if I can get one. Of course not. But I do think you have better odds at finding and developing a good QB if the roster is good around them. And I think you can fuck up a QB with a bad roster. I just think the QB development plan is not so simple. You don’t just chase QBs and then throw them away 5-6-7 weeks in and move to the next guy. It’s a process. It takes time. Eli manning needed time. Phil simms needed even more time than Eli. This isn’t about Daniel Jones. This is about not picking the wrong qb and wasting more time and worse, missing out on a HOF talent in Nabers. If the giants had the choice of Caleb Williams, Maye or Daniels or Nabers that’s another story. They take the qb. They had to choose between nabers and 2-3 lesser qb talents. You trust your scouts and you bypass the qbs because the consensus is they aren’t that good. It’s a cliché, but you don’t draft for need, at least not always, you draft talent. Bingo! Steve Young and Steve Bono both had success on an already established good team. We can then go over to the Jaguars QB's under Coughlin. Even Mahomes walked on to a team with two hall of fame talents in Kelce and Hill.

Sure, but citing previous examples of 2nd and third day QBs excelling isn't really very comforting to me given that the Giants don't currently afford other QBs an opportunity to come out of nowhere and surprise.

In comment 16594981 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16594965 Snorkels said: Quote: Just FTR Eli was 9-26 his final two years with pretty much the same supporting cast, at least early on. Just sayin' Same supporting cast as what? And Eli was 37 and 38 years of age his final two years. JFC.

I look at ‘13 as the year that gives me hope for DJ. At that point Eli was still in his (pocket passer) prime but had horrible OL play throwing to the Golladay-version of Nicks as his #1. His numbers were brutal but we all knew he was a good-to-great QB in a bad situation.

Looking back, that OL played as well or better than anything DJ has had and Cruz was still as good as any WR DJ has played with. That’s obviously not proof that DJ can be good on a decent roster but his bad stats and W/L record is something only a couple QBs could have dramatically improved on, and even so I’m not sure any of them could be successful.

I actually like to look at actual numbers and here are some numbers on QBs drafted in the past decade (or at least 2013-2022) and counted exactly how many would be upgrades to Jones. What I didn't count were guys taken with the first 5 picks but did break them down 6-9, rest of the 1st half and all other rounds. What I came up with was 2 taken 6-9, 4 taken 10-32, and 4 taken in later rounds. In that time period a total of 96 QBs were taken after the 5th pick. Turns out drafting is actually pretty easy when you do it several years later; on the day not so much.

In comment 16595674 Snorkels said:

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I actually like to look at actual numbers and here are some numbers on QBs drafted in the past decade (or at least 2013-2022) and counted exactly how many would be upgrades to Jones. What I didn't count were guys taken with the first 5 picks but did break them down 6-9, rest of the 1st half and all other rounds. What I came up with was 2 taken 6-9, 4 taken 10-32, and 4 taken in later rounds. In that time period a total of 96 QBs were taken after the 5th pick. Turns out drafting is actually pretty easy when you do it several years later; on the day not so much.

What numbers are you basing that on? Because there's no actual data here.

If we're talking pure counting statistics, some of the noise there is that Jones has gotten 60 starts based largely on his draft position, whereas someone drafted later in the draft would not have that luxury.

Not to mention your own personal bias.

since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time.

The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible.

I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense.

In comment 16595674 Snorkels said:

Quote:

I actually like to look at actual numbers and here are some numbers on QBs drafted in the past decade (or at least 2013-2022) and counted exactly how many would be upgrades to Jones. What I didn't count were guys taken with the first 5 picks but did break them down 6-9, rest of the 1st half and all other rounds. What I came up with was 2 taken 6-9, 4 taken 10-32, and 4 taken in later rounds. In that time period a total of 96 QBs were taken after the 5th pick. Turns out drafting is actually pretty easy when you do it several years later; on the day not so much.

List the guys you said would be an upgrade to Jones. And the ones who would not.

Thanks in advance.

In comment 16595826 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time. The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible. I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense.

Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks.

In comment 16596235 JOrthman said:

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In comment 16595826 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time. The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible. I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense. Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks.

Yes. We don't have a ton of advanced stats tracking back to the 00s, but Football Outsiders has the DYAR metric which had Eli as around league average in 2005 and 2006. He was terrible in DYAR in 2007 but obviously made that irrelevant with his playoff run, then in 2008 he was top-10 in that metric.

Outside of 2022, Jones's resume in this area simply does not compare.

In comment 16595318 barens said:

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In comment 16594992 Greg from LI said: Quote: In comment 16594983 compton said: Quote: He did. Simms won a Wild Card game against the Rams in 84 and 'Skins in 85. Also, if Scott Brunner could lead them to a win against the Eagles in 1981, I feel pretty confident in saying that Simms would have as well. I'm quite certain Scott Brunner couldn't lead the Giants to the playoff win against Minnesota.

I'm quite certain Tim Tebow once beat the Steelers (who had the #1 scoring defense in the NFL that year) in the playoffs, and I'm also quite certain that Blake Bortles once reached the AFC Championship Game.

I wouldn't be quite so adamant about a single playoff victory representing a divining rod for QB greatness, or ruling out a crappy QB from being able to produce a single outlier playoff victory tucked into an otherwise mediocre career resume.

Is it meant to pump up Jones at Simms' expense or something?

Nothing at all in a football sense. I was not someone who was constantly excusing Elis mistakes and I was often frustrated by his inconsistency early on. But it was obvious that when he was on, he was awesome. Absolutely awesome. It's just that he mixed in too much bad stuff.

With Eli, he could suck ass for a game, a half, a month, and the coke out for a 2 minute drive and Absolutely sling it. Full command of the offense, making aggressive, difficult throws all over the field, going for the kill. Against any team, any defense, making any throw. And he could do it for longer periods too.

That is not Jones. It's not him at all. In fact, it's pretty close to the opposite of Jones. Eli was a high variance QB with a sky high ceiling. That is not Jones at all.

In comment 16596316 Jerry in_DC said:

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With Eli, he could suck ass for a game, a half, a month, and the coke out for a 2 minute drive and Absolutely sling it. Full command of the offense, making aggressive, difficult throws all over the field, going for the kill. Against any team, any defense, making any throw. And he could do it for longer periods too.

The 2007 game against the Bears is my favorite example of this. Eli comes off the 4 int Vikings game, throws another 2 ints to start the Bears game and looks bad. Giants are down 16-7 entering the 4th, then all of the sudden Eli starts making a bunch of clutch throws the last two drives for the win.

That was Eli even during the middle of his worst statistical season prior to 2013; he always had the big-time throw gene.

In comment 16596280 Gatorade Dunk said:

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I wouldn't be quite so adamant about a single playoff victory representing a divining rod for QB greatness, or ruling out a crappy QB from being able to produce a single outlier playoff victory tucked into an otherwise mediocre career resume.

The list of QBs with one playoff win isn't a "who's who" it's a "who cares?"

Glenn Presnell* 1 0 1.000 Lions 1935
Irv Comp * 1 0 1.000 Packers 1944 [88]
Paul Christman 1 0 1.000 Cardinals 1947 [89]
Bill Wade 1 0 1.000 Bears ^1963
Gifford Nielsen 1 0 1.000 Oilers
John Wolford 1 0 1.000 Rams Carl Brumbaugh* 1 1 .500 Bears ^1933
Babe Parilli 1 1 .500 Patriots
Lynn Dickey 1 1 .500 Packers
Pat Ryan 1 1 .500 Jets
Steve Fuller 1 1 .500 Bears
Mark Malone 1 1 .500 Steelers [90]
Scott Brunner 1 1 .500 Giants
Dieter Brock 1 1 .500 Rams
Bubby Brister 1 1 .500 Steelers [91]
Chris Miller 1 1 .500 Falcons [92]
Steve Beuerlein 1 1 .500 Cowboys
Rodney Peete 1 1 .500 Eagles
Tommy Maddox 1 1 .500 Steelers [93]
Aaron Brooks 1 1 .500 Saints [94]
David Garrard 1 1 .500 Jaguars [95]
Tim Tebow 1 1 .500 Broncos [96]
Jay Cutler 1 1 .500 Bears
T. J. Yates 1 1 .500 Texans [97]
Matt Schaub 1 1 .500 Texans [98]
Brock Osweiler 1 1 .500 Texans [99]
Marcus Mariota 1 1 .500 Titans [100]
Case Keenum 1 1 .500 Vikings [101]
Trevor Lawrence 1 1 .500 Jaguars
Daniel Jones 1 1 .500 Giants
C. J. Stroud 1 1 .500 Texans
Jordan Love 1 1 .500 Packers 150 Frank Ryan 1 2 .333 Browns ^1964
James Harris 1 2 .333 Rams
Bob Lee 1 2 .333 Vikings
Erik Kramer 1 2 .333 Lions
Steve Walsh 1 2 .333 Saints (0–1)Bears(1–1) [103]
Jeff George 1 2 .333 Falcons (0–1)
Vikings (1–1) [104]
Elvis Grbac 1 2 .333 Chiefs (0–1)
Ravens (1–1) [105]
Jay Fiedler 1 2 .333 Dolphins
Shaun King 1 2 .333 Buccaneers
Marc Bulger 1 2 .333 Rams [106]
Deshaun Watson 1 2 .333 Texans [107]
161 Don Meredith 1 3 .250 Cowboys
Joe Ferguson 1 3 .250 Bills
Steve Bartkowski 1 3 .250 Falcons
Steve DeBerg 1 3 .250 Broncos (0–1)
Chiefs (1–2) [108]
Carson Palmer 1 3 .250 Bengals (0–2)
Cardinals (1–1) [109]
Kirk Cousins 1 3 .250 Redskins (0–1)
Vikings (1–2)

About Carson Palmer. He was going to be good.

In comment 16596342 Jerry in_DC said:

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About Carson Palmer. He was going to be good.

Don't even get me started on Palmer. Was? He was elite in 2015.

He was gonna be a HOF QB if he didn't get hurt, though. I will die on this hill.

Early in the playoff game. Tragic.

In comment 16596235 JOrthman said:

Quote:

In comment 16595826 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time. The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible. I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense. Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks.

Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two.

People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber.

In comment 16596376 santacruzom said:

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In comment 16596235 JOrthman said: Quote: In comment 16595826 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: since someone brought up Eli needing time to develop, is trying to determine *why* he needed time. The first 3-4 seasons were rough and inconsistent. Changes were made at QB coach and coordinator along the way, for a top prospect with high-level prep and access to the best pre-NFL experience possible. I 100% believe that in a post-2004 NFL, Eli gets drafted to a team that builds the offense around his skillset and comfort level rather than trying to fit him into the coach's vision, which was just the way things were always done in the NFL up until the last 20 years or so and I imagine a lot of the bumps in the road level out by not having to learn him into a difficult, mistake-prone, and complicated offense. Here is where I will take exception. Eli's "rough start" is way over played on BBI and in general. Was he Peyton or Brady? No, but his only true rough start was when he went in his Rookie year. After that rookie year he was putting up good numbers. The bigger problem was expectation. People saw him as Peyton's brother and kept expecting him to put up Peyton numbers and that was never going to be him. People forget that during their careers Ben's numbers and his were right around the same. The only big difference is Eli was more of a gunslinger and threw more picks. Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two. People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber.

I think Eli was largely who he was by his second season: a streaky player capable of playing like the best in the league in spurts who made some mind numbingly stupid plays, but consistently within the 8-12 range despite the intraseason variation. Some outliers like 2011 to the positive and 2013 to the negative, obviously.

In comment 16596376 santacruzom said:

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Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two. People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber.

I find it to be some incredible revisionist history and goalpost moving.

People definitely flipped out after the 4 int Minnesota game in 2007. That's because it looked like Eli was actually regressing during that season from decent but inconsistent 2005 and 2006 campaigns. There was an actual standard of play he set that he was failing to live up to, whereas with Jones - prior to 2022 - the only standard we had were a couple of 4 TD games in his rookie season.

Nevermind that by the time Eli was entering his 6th season like Jones, he was a top-ten QB in 2008 and had won a SB the year prior.

In comment 16596348 BrettNYG10 said:

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He was elite in 2015.

Hell, he was elite in 2005. He completed a long bomb on the very play in which he was injured.

In comment 16596438 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 16596348 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: He was elite in 2015. Hell, he was elite in 2005. He completed a long bomb on the very play in which he was injured.

I wasn't born then so I don't remember.

In comment 16596400 Lambuth_Special said:

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In comment 16596376 santacruzom said: Quote: Eli managed to have some very impressive performances his rookie year too, particularly against the Steelers. He then led that great comeback against the Broncos in year two. People act like his first few seasons were Jamarcus Russell caliber. I find it to be some incredible revisionist history and goalpost moving. People definitely flipped out after the 4 int Minnesota game in 2007. That's because it looked like Eli was actually regressing during that season from decent but inconsistent 2005 and 2006 campaigns. There was an actual standard of play he set that he was failing to live up to, whereas with Jones - prior to 2022 - the only standard we had were a couple of 4 TD games in his rookie season. Nevermind that by the time Eli was entering his 6th season like Jones, he was a top-ten QB in 2008 and had won a SB the year prior.

I can't speak for everyone, but not revisionist for me at all. In his second year I was one of about two or three people on BBI that defended Eli, often taking a lot of crap for it.