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nygiants16 : 9/9/2024 9:07 am
and i am probably going to get killed for this but i honestly think there is talent on this team, the reason it looks so fricken bad is because the QB cant compelte an easy 10 yard in route..

You want to blame Schoen and Daboll for Jones? i am not going to argue that anymore but then give them credit for Dexter Lawrence and Andrew Thomas..

Are Schoen and Daboll perfect? absolutely not, no GM or coach is...

You get competent QB play and everything looks better and doesnt look as bad, look at 22 average qb play and daboll is coach of the year
I think  
GoDeep13 : 9/9/2024 9:15 am : link
If they changed QB. The team would be energized and play a lot better. I think the PLAYERS have lost faith in DJ.
The question I have for you is  
Chris684 : 9/9/2024 9:16 am : link
Why would anyone separate Schoen and Daboll from Jones?

They had a number of different moves they could have made at the QB position this offseason and yet they stood pat (actually downgraded).

Dottino stated on the BBI podcast they were never serious about Maye. Not to mention there were 6 1st QBs taken in the top 12 picks and we had a chance at 3 of them. Again, nothing. They could have pulled the trigger on Wilson or Fields or dabbled elsewhere in the QB FA market. Instead we get Drew Lock.

No one, especially Daboll, gets to sit back and point the finger at Jones for self preservation at this point. They're all in it together.
RE: The question I have for you is  
sb from NYT Forum : 9/9/2024 9:18 am : link
In comment 16601839 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Why would anyone separate Schoen and Daboll from Jones?

They had a number of different moves they could have made at the QB position this offseason and yet they stood pat (actually downgraded).

Dottino stated on the BBI podcast they were never serious about Maye. Not to mention there were 6 1st QBs taken in the top 12 picks and we had a chance at 3 of them. Again, nothing. They could have pulled the trigger on Wilson or Fields or dabbled elsewhere in the QB FA market. Instead we get Drew Lock.

No one, especially Daboll, gets to sit back and point the finger at Jones for self preservation at this point. They're all in it together.


I don't believe Dotino for a second.
Why do daboll and schoen  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 9:19 am : link
Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.
RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
nygiants16 : 9/9/2024 9:19 am : link
In comment 16601848 JT039 said:
Quote:
Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.


Because they re-signed them?
RE: The question I have for you is  
nygiants16 : 9/9/2024 9:21 am : link
In comment 16601839 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Why would anyone separate Schoen and Daboll from Jones?

They had a number of different moves they could have made at the QB position this offseason and yet they stood pat (actually downgraded).

Dottino stated on the BBI podcast they were never serious about Maye. Not to mention there were 6 1st QBs taken in the top 12 picks and we had a chance at 3 of them. Again, nothing. They could have pulled the trigger on Wilson or Fields or dabbled elsewhere in the QB FA market. Instead we get Drew Lock.

No one, especially Daboll, gets to sit back and point the finger at Jones for self preservation at this point. They're all in it together.


I cant argue that, if you think they deserved to be fired for missing on the QB,thats fine, i am not ready to do that
This is where I am  
PatersonPlank : 9/9/2024 9:22 am : link
The offensive line looked better
Our WRs I bet you will see where getting NFL level separation
Our RB is an average NFL guy

Our QB just sucks, and he makes the whole offense look horrible, All he wants to do is checkdown to a 5 yd pass (even on 3rd and 10). He refuses the throw to relatively open receivers, he panics after 1 read, and he is not accurate when he does throw it. He also has zero pocket presence and runs into sacks.

The defense will improve, I think we have some good young talent. They weren't all that bad, giving up 21 pts, 300 yds, and getting 2 turnovers. Also remember they were on the field all the time because the offense did nothing. Without looking at the stats, I bet a bunch of teams won this week with defenses having stats like ours.
RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
SirLoinOfBeef : 9/9/2024 9:23 am : link
In comment 16601848 JT039 said:
Quote:
Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.


Who would Mara hire that wouldn't be a puppet?...

He likes his company men.
RE: RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 9:23 am : link
In comment 16601850 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 16601848 JT039 said:


Quote:


Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.



Because they re-signed them?


I am not giving credit for re-signing all pros. That’s ridiculous. What about the rest of the roster that has been horrible? This is Schoens team and Daboll coaches it.

The stink of Gettleman is wearing off and a new stench is in town.

Like I said - if these two are puppets for Mara - then we are more fucked than originally thought.
RE: RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 9:24 am : link
In comment 16601862 SirLoinOfBeef said:
Quote:
In comment 16601848 JT039 said:


Quote:


Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.



Who would Mara hire that wouldn't be a puppet?...

He likes his company men.


Our two best coaches in our history are anything but that. You think prime Parcells or Coughlin will be puppets to Mara?
QB  
Somers24 : 9/9/2024 9:26 am : link
but there isn't any hope for an in-house replacement.

Lock and Cutlets are polar opposites. One has impressive physical talent and a 10 cent head. The other has nice intanglibles to go along w low end college talent.
I agree with you for the most part  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2024 9:26 am : link
But I can't simply shrug off criticism of Daboll and Schoen for retaining Jones as starter. That's a major indictment of them. I'll forever curse Gettleman's name for drafting that loser in the first place, but ownership has been transferred to the current management. Can't blame Gettleman for Jones still inexplicably starting games in 2024.
RE: RE: RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2024 9:27 am : link
In comment 16601866 JT039 said:
Quote:
Our two best coaches in our history are anything but that. You think prime Parcells or Coughlin will be puppets to Mara?


Neither of them were hired by John Mara.
Wait… we’re giving them credit for 2 guys  
Section331 : 9/9/2024 9:27 am : link
they didn’t even draft? WTF? We can ding DG all we want, and he deserves every bit of it, but his track record is looking better than Schoen’s right now.

Yes, Jones is problem #1, but the D rolled over yesterday. Dex was the only one who showed up to play. They made Sam Fucking Darnold look like vintage Joe Montana.
RE: RE: RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
nygiants16 : 9/9/2024 9:27 am : link
In comment 16601863 JT039 said:
Quote:
In comment 16601850 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 16601848 JT039 said:


Quote:


Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.



Because they re-signed them?



I am not giving credit for re-signing all pros. That’s ridiculous. What about the rest of the roster that has been horrible? This is Schoens team and Daboll coaches it.

The stink of Gettleman is wearing off and a new stench is in town.

Like I said - if these two are puppets for Mara - then we are more fucked than originally thought.


So you kill them for bringing back Jones but they dont get the credit for bringing back good players?

And is there talent on this roster? Wrs? DBs? LBs? Ol? DL?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 9:32 am : link
In comment 16601875 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 16601866 JT039 said:


Quote:


Our two best coaches in our history are anything but that. You think prime Parcells or Coughlin will be puppets to Mara?



Neither of them were hired by John Mara.


But both would tell them to go to hell if Mara told them how to do their job.
Is it too late to go to a wishbone offense  
kelly : 9/9/2024 9:32 am : link
Since we have no qb
RE: This is where I am  
gersh : 9/9/2024 9:33 am : link
In comment 16601857 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
The offensive line looked better
Our WRs I bet you will see where getting NFL level separation
Our RB is an average NFL guy

Our QB just sucks, and he makes the whole offense look horrible, All he wants to do is checkdown to a 5 yd pass (even on 3rd and 10). He refuses the throw to relatively open receivers, he panics after 1 read, and he is not accurate when he does throw it. He also has zero pocket presence and runs into sacks.

The defense will improve, I think we have some good young talent. They weren't all that bad, giving up 21 pts, 300 yds, and getting 2 turnovers. Also remember they were on the field all the time because the offense did nothing. Without looking at the stats, I bet a bunch of teams won this week with defenses having stats like ours.


When we upgrade the QB, we have the talent to make the playoffs. Suck it up for one more horrible year - and hopefully we get a good one in the draft. This is frustrating, as we made the playoffs with this QB and less talent.
I agree with OP in that QB can improve things quick  
Sean : 9/9/2024 9:33 am : link
There were a lot of pieces on the 2003 team which contributed to a Super Bowl title and really strong core. That can be the case here.

But, the QB situation is so bad that it clouds it all so much.
RE: I agree with you for the most part  
nygiants16 : 9/9/2024 9:34 am : link
In comment 16601872 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
But I can't simply shrug off criticism of Daboll and Schoen for retaining Jones as starter. That's a major indictment of them. I'll forever curse Gettleman's name for drafting that loser in the first place, but ownership has been transferred to the current management. Can't blame Gettleman for Jones still inexplicably starting games in 2024.


Greg you are 100% right i am not completely absolving them from anything
RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
Sean : 9/9/2024 9:35 am : link
In comment 16601848 JT039 said:
Quote:
Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.

Schoen did sign both to good contracts. nygiants16 is clearly saying if he owns Jones because of the contract, he also owns Thomas & Lawrence for their contracts.
RE: Is it too late to go to a wishbone offense  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2024 9:37 am : link
In comment 16601892 kelly said:
Quote:
Since we have no qb


Call up Bobby Bowden!

convo yesterday  
jestersdead : 9/9/2024 9:39 am : link
with a friend and I said the team, on paper is improved. He then countered and asked me to point out the improvements. Before I could, he rattled off the following positions they took a step back in vs last year. His opinion was; RB, d-line, safety, TE and CB. Neutral on the o-line and QB, upgrade at outside LB.
I don't think we played good  
Biteymax22 : 9/9/2024 9:39 am : link
as a team yesterday, so I'm not giving anyone a free pass.

But... Our defense gave up 21 points (taking out the pick 6). There are QBs in this league that would have not thrown a pick six plus found a way to put 22 up yesterday and the list of guys isn't just Pat Mahomes.
The Giants don't need to clean house  
GeofromNJ : 9/9/2024 9:45 am : link
There are good players on this team. They need a new QB. Jones can't see the field and he lacks a quick release. I would play Lock until he demonstrates that he has little talent, then I would play DeVito just for giggles. Should the GM be replaced? I can think of three egregious errors. Drafting Neal on the first round. Resigning Jones. Not trading Barkley when he was under contract. I don't fault Schoen for not drafting a QB this year. Nabers is a great talent who will be around for a long time barring injury. The Giants can draft a QB next year. As for Daboll, I don't care one way or the other although I give him credit for losing weight.
I think  
Jerry in_DC : 9/9/2024 9:46 am : link
If you drop a Geno Smith or Baker Mayfield into this team that we'd be a real wild card contender.

If you go up a level - say Herbert or Stafford - we would be competitive with some of the better teams in the conference. Not necessarily better than the top teams, but capable of being on the field with them.

That's not to say Schoen has done a good job. The 2 best players were here already. But the roster this year is not a disaster. It could be competitive.
People are really overvaluing  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 9:52 am : link
The talent on this team.

Dexter
Thomas
Burns
Okereke
Nabers

Those guys could play for just about everyone. Other than that - meh.
RE: I think  
Danny Kanell : 9/9/2024 9:53 am : link
In comment 16601943 Jerry in_DC said:
Quote:
If you drop a Geno Smith or Baker Mayfield into this team that we'd be a real wild card contender.

If you go up a level - say Herbert or Stafford - we would be competitive with some of the better teams in the conference. Not necessarily better than the top teams, but capable of being on the field with them.

That's not to say Schoen has done a good job. The 2 best players were here already. But the roster this year is not a disaster. It could be competitive.


Did you watch that defense yesterday?
RE: RE: I think  
Mike from Ohio : 9/9/2024 10:00 am : link
In comment 16601959 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 16601943 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


If you drop a Geno Smith or Baker Mayfield into this team that we'd be a real wild card contender.

If you go up a level - say Herbert or Stafford - we would be competitive with some of the better teams in the conference. Not necessarily better than the top teams, but capable of being on the field with them.

That's not to say Schoen has done a good job. The 2 best players were here already. But the roster this year is not a disaster. It could be competitive.



Did you watch that defense yesterday?


Agree. Daniel Jones is certainly problem 1A, but after the first Minnesota drive the resulted in the fumble, Sam Darnold had all day to sit and scan the field waiting for someone to come open. I can't put that on Jones.

Burns and Thibs can't be complete no-shows like they were yesterday.
The excuse making needs to end  
UberAlias : 9/9/2024 10:03 am : link
These men have had time to improve the team's situation. Does it look any better? It wasn't good last year and looks even worse today. No one should be exempt.
RE: RE: I think  
compton : 9/9/2024 10:06 am : link
In comment 16601959 Danny Kanell said:
Quote:
In comment 16601943 Jerry in_DC said:


Quote:


If you drop a Geno Smith or Baker Mayfield into this team that we'd be a real wild card contender.

If you go up a level - say Herbert or Stafford - we would be competitive with some of the better teams in the conference. Not necessarily better than the top teams, but capable of being on the field with them.

That's not to say Schoen has done a good job. The 2 best players were here already. But the roster this year is not a disaster. It could be competitive.



Did you watch that defense yesterday?


The defense got two turnovers, held the Vikings to 319 total yards and gave up 21 points while not getting any help from the offense. The defense wasn't good but they weren't bad either. The defense did enough to make the game competitive.
The defense gave up 21 points  
nygiants16 : 9/9/2024 10:12 am : link
was some great effort? absolutely not but lets not act like they were putrid
RE: The defense gave up 21 points  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 10:20 am : link
In comment 16602004 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
was some great effort? absolutely not but lets not act like they were putrid


Minnesota basically gave up the 2nd half and especially in fourth quarter. After the pick 6 - they packed it in.
The Vikings passed it 3 times  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 10:21 am : link
On their last 4 drives.

Let’s not act like that a defense that was stopping them either.
RE: I think  
Eric on Li : 9/9/2024 10:22 am : link
In comment 16601833 GoDeep13 said:
Quote:
If they changed QB. The team would be energized and play a lot better. I think the PLAYERS have lost faith in DJ.


the players just voted him captain like a week and a half ago.

the defense was so demoralized by jones that even before the pick 6 they let sam darnold march up and down the field on them without an incompletion for half the game?

i think we've seen enough coaching incompetence since coughlin to recognize this for what it is.
Daboll  
Wiggy : 9/9/2024 10:26 am : link
Is not a good coach. That first season was purely luck
You can make an argument Schoen vs. Daboll  
Mike from Ohio : 9/9/2024 10:27 am : link
on most of these personnel misses. Were Thibs and Neal misses on Schoen for drafting them, or Daboll and staff for not turning their raw talent into production at the NFL level?

The bottom line is that it is up to Schoen to bring in high end talent with top-10 picks and up to Daboll to get them to play up to their potential. Between the two of them, that isn't happening.
RE: You can make an argument Schoen vs. Daboll  
JT039 : 9/9/2024 10:28 am : link
In comment 16602051 Mike from Ohio said:
Quote:
on most of these personnel misses. Were Thibs and Neal misses on Schoen for drafting them, or Daboll and staff for not turning their raw talent into production at the NFL level?

The bottom line is that it is up to Schoen to bring in high end talent with top-10 picks and up to Daboll to get them to play up to their potential. Between the two of them, that isn't happening.


The stench of Jones is stronger than that of Daboll and Schoen - but their stench is still lingering…
All this time  
madeinstars : 9/9/2024 10:29 am : link
So many people thought it was impossible to evaluate Jones because of the team around him, when in fact it was always impossible to evaluate the team because of Daniel Jones.
Daboll and Schoen watched Jones play last year and thought  
Shirk130 : 9/9/2024 10:32 am : link
yeah, let's run it back with Daniel. That should be a fireable offense. And they bring in Lock and make him tell the media he is just there as a backup. Not to compete for a starting job. Just awful management.
RE: I don't think we played good  
HomerJones45 : 9/9/2024 10:35 am : link
In comment 16601922 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
as a team yesterday, so I'm not giving anyone a free pass.

But... Our defense gave up 21 points (taking out the pick 6). There are QBs in this league that would have not thrown a pick six plus found a way to put 22 up yesterday and the list of guys isn't just Pat Mahomes.
They gave up a 99 yard march for a td. Sam Darnold, a 60% career passer, hit 80% of his passes for over 8 yards an attempt.

No, the D, outside of Lawrence, wasn't good yesterday either.
RE: RE: I don't think we played good  
Greg from LI : 9/9/2024 10:39 am : link
In comment 16602077 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
No, the D, outside of Lawrence, wasn't good yesterday either.


Bitey's not saying the D was good, though. He's saying it wasn't the dumpster fire Jones was, and wasn't so bad that the Giants couldn't have been competitive in that game.
We saw it last year with an even less talented roster.  
penkap75 : 9/9/2024 10:49 am : link
Team played better when DJ was out, whether it was Cutlets or Tyrod. DJ sucks.
RE: Daboll and Schoen watched Jones play last year and thought  
HomerJones45 : 9/9/2024 10:50 am : link
In comment 16602072 Shirk130 said:
Quote:
yeah, let's run it back with Daniel. That should be a fireable offense. And they bring in Lock and make him tell the media he is just there as a backup. Not to compete for a starting job. Just awful management.
There is an issue with the team building philosophy run by accountants and not football people. You find good players, you pay them and keep them no matter what position they play and let the HC and the Coordinators design around what you have. You don't let good players go so you can spend draft picks and FA dollars to acquire the same positions. All you are doing is spending resources back filling holes. Unless you have an uncommonly good year drafting and signing UDFA, how do you get ahead backfilling?
RE: The question I have for you is  
Matt M. : 9/9/2024 10:56 am : link
In comment 16601839 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Why would anyone separate Schoen and Daboll from Jones?

They had a number of different moves they could have made at the QB position this offseason and yet they stood pat (actually downgraded).

Dottino stated on the BBI podcast they were never serious about Maye. Not to mention there were 6 1st QBs taken in the top 12 picks and we had a chance at 3 of them. Again, nothing. They could have pulled the trigger on Wilson or Fields or dabbled elsewhere in the QB FA market. Instead we get Drew Lock.

No one, especially Daboll, gets to sit back and point the finger at Jones for self preservation at this point. They're all in it together.
First, I don't believe Dottino. Second, they were higher on Daniels than Maye, but the asking prices were ridiculous. Third, the 3 guys who they passed on all had big question marks. Of the 3, one played terrible yesterday, one is sitting behind a clearly rusty Cousins, and one is done for the season after mixed reports on his summer camp performance.

Few here were terrible high on any of those 3 enough to grab them where we sat. Maybe a trade down, but no guarantee they would still be there.
RE: RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
Red Right Hand : 9/9/2024 11:11 am : link
In comment 16601903 Sean said:
Quote:
In comment 16601848 JT039 said:


Quote:


Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.


Schoen did sign both to good contracts. nygiants16 is clearly saying if he owns Jones because of the contract, he also owns Thomas & Lawrence for their contracts.
We know what he's saying, it still makes no sense, even though it does to you. No one is giving them credit for keeping pro bowlers they inherited even if you or someone else says they have to because they bear responsibility for resigning a shitty Jones. You can say what you like, but no one believes it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why do daboll and schoen  
Section331 : 9/9/2024 11:14 am : link
In comment 16601877 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 16601863 JT039 said:


Quote:


In comment 16601850 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


In comment 16601848 JT039 said:


Quote:


Get credit for Thomas or Lawerence?

They weren’t here when drafted. Daboll is a bad coach. If he doesn’t have the balls to stand up to the owner - then we shouldn’t want him anyways. You think Mike tomlin, Andy Reid, Harbaugh, etc… would go into this year with Jones?

If they are puppets for Mara - they shouldn’t be in this organization either.



Because they re-signed them?



I am not giving credit for re-signing all pros. That’s ridiculous. What about the rest of the roster that has been horrible? This is Schoens team and Daboll coaches it.

The stink of Gettleman is wearing off and a new stench is in town.

Like I said - if these two are puppets for Mara - then we are more fucked than originally thought.



So you kill them for bringing back Jones but they dont get the credit for bringing back good players?

And is there talent on this roster? Wrs? DBs? LBs? Ol? DL?


No, sorry, they don’t get credit for bringing back all pro-level players. Letting either of them go would be a fireable offense. And the cherry on the sundae was the Jones contract. This staff has shown me little to recommend that they know what they’re doing. This is year 3, Jones is now THEIR QB, 48 of the 53 roster players are theirs, there are no other excuses.
You can evaluate the re-signings on a spectrum  
Mike from Ohio : 9/9/2024 11:47 am : link
Yes, Schoen gets credit for re-signing Andrew Thomas and Dexter Lawrence. It is also fair to say those were no brainer decisions that every GM in the league would have done.

Jones was a more difficult decision. There was a wider field of choices. They chose poorly.

So while all of those players "belong" to Schoen and Daboll, it is also fair to say they nailed the easy decisions and fumbled the difficult ones (counting Barkley).
there have been quite a few people  
santacruzom : 9/9/2024 12:31 pm : link
arguing that it's a completely rational strategy to acquire other talent and then acquire the QB. They'll cite teams that managed to make a leap after doing so, but there isn't much evidence that those teams actually *planned* it that way. Those teams saw an unexpected opportunity to acquire an elite QB or elite prospect and they took it.

The Giants either refuse to do that, or come up short in their efforts.
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