and Daboll, is if Burn doesn't produce like he should.
The Jones debacle has been beaten to death, and clearly went the wrong way, but it was a tough decision at the time that I can understand. But losing McKinney and Barkley, and giving up draft capital and a huge contract for Burns, you'd think that guy has to make a Dexter Lawrence type impact. There was no edge pressure on Sam Darnold.
That’s not back tracking, it’s called having a conversation. A full paragraph weighs for more than 3 words does it not?
At the time everything pointed to Dak electing to hit free agency. Things changed. I also didn’t know I was required to respond to every post in a thread, I’ll try to do better. My apologies Rick in Dallas.
On the other hand, Daniel Jones stunk prior to 2022 and stunk last year and you were still here making excuses for the contract being a bargain. It never was and it never would be because Daniel Jones was never going to change. You made excuses that Schoen had no other choice about the QB position this summer. You’re the excuse maker not me. As someone who has been pretty spot on about the Giants since the hiring of Gettleman and Jones since the draft, the one thing I’m not is an excuse maker. I haven’t even made excuses for Daboll, other than thinking he’s a good coach who can create a good offense when he doesn’t have a turd for a QB.
There’s more important things to discuss than if Eric On Li thinks the defensive performance was something you can win with. It’s a fact that it was. Teams win 40-35 games in the NFL. It’s not even worth it to engage with you and your word jumbles today on something so minuscule. Run along.
as usual the voices in your head have their facts wrong - the guys making the excuses for the contract were the ones running the team, the namesakes of this threads OP which your first reply was to defend like they are victims of their own decisions.
i dont blame you for abandoning that loser of a beachhead but no need to put words in my mouth. the word "bargain" re the contract came from the schoen interview last month and i called out both what i thought was correct and incorrect about his comments as ive done since it was signed. the biggest thing i was wrong about was thinking they were going to be smart enough to hedge with a QB in April. but if you want to continue living in the fantasy world where you somehow had better intel than the GM by all means.
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we spent an entire offseason talking about adding "dawgs" then at home week 1 rolled over to sam freaking darnold. if that doesnt prove to be an aberration we are in for another leadership blow up. things are supposed to get better by year 3, not stay the same or get worse. joe judge even beat darnold.
Just three weeks ago you were hyping up one of those dawgs that no showed. Backtracking already?
i dont even know who you are referring to but it doesnt matter - you seem to not be on planet earth where there's an abundance of evidence including straight from the opposing head coaches mouth that the team was unprepared for yesterday's game and laid a complete egg at home for the 2nd season in a row.
Where did I defend Schoen? I defended the defense, who could have shut down Darnold and held the Vikings to 7 points and it wouldn’t have mattered. There’s only so many times the offense can let down the defense and the defense not to fold.
My first reply said that Daboll should keep his job and that remains my opinion. He was able scheme around a giant turd at QB and got them to the playoffs, I think he should get a chance with a non turd at QB.
This is you on August 18th about Joe Schoen’s defensive additions:
You’re bailing on the “dawgs” after one game?
Talking out of both sides of your mouth as usual. Yea maybe Schoen stinks at his job and non NFL GMs have better info than him.
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In comment 16602741 Eric on Li said:
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we spent an entire offseason talking about adding "dawgs" then at home week 1 rolled over to sam freaking darnold. if that doesnt prove to be an aberration we are in for another leadership blow up. things are supposed to get better by year 3, not stay the same or get worse. joe judge even beat darnold.
Just three weeks ago you were hyping up one of those dawgs that no showed. Backtracking already?
i dont even know who you are referring to but it doesnt matter - you seem to not be on planet earth where there's an abundance of evidence including straight from the opposing head coaches mouth that the team was unprepared for yesterday's game and laid a complete egg at home for the 2nd season in a row.
Wait, head coach of *winning team* tells his locker room that they were more prepared than the *losing team* in his postgame speech to his players and that's part of "an abundance of evidence including straight from the opposing head coaches [sic] mouth that the team was unprepared"?
Cliche coachspeak after a week 1 victory is now evidence?
Feels like a reach on that particular point.
Where did I defend Schoen? I defended the defense, who could have shut down Darnold and held the Vikings to 7 points and it wouldn’t have mattered. There’s only so many times the offense can let down the defense and the defense not to fold.
My first reply said that Daboll should keep his job and that remains my opinion. He was able scheme around a giant turd at QB and got them to the playoffs, I think he should get a chance with a non turd at QB.
This is you on August 18th about Joe Schoen’s defensive additions:
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I know no tunsil but most teams dont have a tunsil. with thibs on the other side and lawrence up the middle whoever gets singled from that group is going to be a problem. look at that pocket collapsing on stroud without any blitzers.
You’re bailing on the “dawgs” after one game?
im having a hard time tracking what you're even alleging. that i made positive comment about the pass rush in the houston preseason game when burns pulled the spin move and now im out because i can see the obvious that the defense played like shit yesterday? if so, no i'm not out on brian burns after being a fan of his for almost a decade just bc of 1 game.
my problem is with the guys who chose both the full 53 roster and who among those 53 got every snap yesterday. their stated "dawg" mentality emphasis this offseason did not come through at all yesterday. if that doesnt change in a hurry they shouldnt be making those choices again for long because they either have the wrong plan or are making the wrong choices or both.
Talking out of both sides of your mouth as usual. Yea maybe Schoen stinks at his job and non NFL GMs have better info than him.
making statements derived from fantasy is fantasyland. it is fantasy if you think anyone has info so good as to know what all 32 teams are planning to do in NFL free agency in the weeks before free agency - and beyond fantasy if anyone thinks that person is posting 100x a day on bbi.
after getting his value wrong 6 ways to sunday schoen didnt even know where barkley was signing the day of free agency. all it takes is 1 team doing something unexpected, no different than the falcons with the penix pick even after signing cousins.
Wait, head coach of *winning team* tells his locker room that they were more prepared than the *losing team* in his postgame speech to his players and that's part of "an abundance of evidence including straight from the opposing head coaches [sic] mouth that the team was unprepared"?
It's unbelievable, isn't it?
I would bet if we found video of Daboll talking to the team after a win, we would hear something similar...
On Daboll, it’s clear from his body language last year and on hard knocks he doesn’t want Jones as his QB.
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Yesterday’s defensive performance wasn’t great but it also wasn’t terrible. A defensive performance you can win with. Minnesota never had to take any chances the Giants could take advantage of with Darnold because they knew they didn’t have to to win.
On Daboll, it’s clear from his body language last year and on hard knocks he doesn’t want Jones as his QB.
you have battered wife syndrome.
That doesn’t even make any sense.
of course there was no offer, the giants told the world he wasnt hitting the market without a tag for 2 months. lamar had won a freaking mvp, asked out, and he still didnt get an offer on the tag even though he actually hit free agency. unless you have some secret intel on that beyond eisen and shefter?
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Dec 25, 2023
@richeisen
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Seeing a lot of teams “passed” on Lamar this past spring takes here.
1) He was NEVER a free agent. You would have had to give @ravens two No. 1 picks to sign him if the Ravens would not match the offer.
2) The Ravens were never going to let him go.
That is all.
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
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That is not all. Ravens never were approached. Carolina traded multiple 1s for Bryce Young, yet no team ever tried to get a deal done with Lamar Jackson. There never was a team that challenged it once Jackson himself publicly stated he wanted out of Baltimore. Lost opportunity.
for the 1 millionth time (and one can only hope last) - from the moment in January23 schoen publicly declared that jones would be back either on a tag or extension, the only negotiation was how much over the tag it would cost. pro forma starts with 2 tag equivalents (that's also what barkley was looking for). moneyball joe brought himself to the belief that the tag was the worst case scenario w/ jones and if you are still in a digging up the receipts mood you will find i disagreed with that comment the day he made it. he also somehow brought himself to the belief of passing on julian love for what would have been an actual bargain even less than he'd offered previously (and about half of what his new extension this year paid him) and misreading the barkley market on camera for all to see. there are receipts on those as well.
for 2 years i've called the jones deal market value not a bargain because that's what it was at the time. i cant claim to have reviewed every such deal but of those i have of players negotiating with the tag in pocket in this CBA the cost of an extension always starts at 2 tag equivalent guaranteed $ and in the case of the QB market the tags were set to increase bc burrow, herbert, hurts, lamar were all right about to get extended off the watson, murray, russ, rodgers contracts the year prior. it was a clearly escalating market they chose to buy in vs rent. as bad as it has gone the downside of the $ is still vastly overstated relative to what id call the bigger mistake of not buying insurance in the draft this past year because they had the chance to do it after the hurricane knocked the walls down and instead they said "nah we're good". even with the knee injury id take jjm over next year's guys at this point, and even if that changes the 1 or 2 who elevate may end up out of reach.
barring a miraculous turnaround i for one am hoping it's someone new making the decision on the next top 5 pick, which brings us back to the actual topic of the thread. for me the nail in the coffin of this regime isn't what they willingly chose to pay jones it's the completely unprepared and disinterested effort in the 2nd straight home opener. effort should be non-negotiable but it appears the same loser mentality we saw with "the barkley negotiation took years off my life" has made it's way to the coaching staff he hired and players he selected.
schoen was a parcells guy.
if anyone gets a blank check it's belichick, and if so it's probably because john mara has literally tried everything else possible to make the pain stop and cant.
if things continue as they are im all for it though, and for it at least a few weeks BEFORE the trade deadline so he can cut bait on anyone he wants asap.
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Anywhere close to what Schoen gave him. It is not fantasy land. There’s a select few on this board that I tell a lot more things I post here. I don’t make things up.
of course there was no offer, the giants told the world he wasnt hitting the market without a tag for 2 months. lamar had won a freaking mvp, asked out, and he still didnt get an offer on the tag even though he actually hit free agency. unless you have some secret intel on that beyond eisen
Yea I’m not doing your bullshit word twisting and semantics today.
No shit there was no offer and he didn’t hit the market. If he did hit the market there wasn’t going to be one anywhere close to what he got. I don’t care that you believe Joel Corry and Rich Eisen and anything that’s put in the media.
No NFL was making Jones an offer close to what he got if he did hit the market. No team had his value at that amount. Now run along
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In comment 16603177 ajr2456 said:
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Anywhere close to what Schoen gave him. It is not fantasy land. There’s a select few on this board that I tell a lot more things I post here. I don’t make things up.
of course there was no offer, the giants told the world he wasnt hitting the market without a tag for 2 months. lamar had won a freaking mvp, asked out, and he still didnt get an offer on the tag even though he actually hit free agency. unless you have some secret intel on that beyond eisen
Yea I’m not doing your bullshit word twisting and semantics today.
No shit there was no offer and he didn’t hit the market. If he did hit the market there wasn’t going to be one anywhere close to what he got. I don’t care that you believe Joel Corry and Rich Eisen and anything that’s put in the media.
No NFL was making Jones an offer close to what he got if he did hit the market. No team had his value at that amount. Now run along
cant say im surprised that you dont care to believe things multi-sourced from people who actually have a track record of getting them right. actually explains a lot.
Schoen is Joe Judge but just playing a different role
Joe Schoen is country mouse what went to McKinsey finishing school. He a Rube.
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In comment 16603332 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16603177 ajr2456 said:
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Anywhere close to what Schoen gave him. It is not fantasy land. There’s a select few on this board that I tell a lot more things I post here. I don’t make things up.
of course there was no offer, the giants told the world he wasnt hitting the market without a tag for 2 months. lamar had won a freaking mvp, asked out, and he still didnt get an offer on the tag even though he actually hit free agency. unless you have some secret intel on that beyond eisen
Yea I’m not doing your bullshit word twisting and semantics today.
No shit there was no offer and he didn’t hit the market. If he did hit the market there wasn’t going to be one anywhere close to what he got. I don’t care that you believe Joel Corry and Rich Eisen and anything that’s put in the media.
No NFL was making Jones an offer close to what he got if he did hit the market. No team had his value at that amount. Now run along
cant say im surprised that you dont care to believe things multi-sourced from people who actually have a track record of getting them right. actually explains a lot.
It actually explains a lot about you.
For someone who says they don’t like interacting with me you sure do it a lot.
Go run along and screenshot someone else’s chart and post it.
Just say it…B+/A graded deal.
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Gettleman was a much better football scout than this empty suit.
cant say im surprised that you dont care to believe things multi-sourced from people who actually have a track record of getting them right. actually explains a lot.
It actually explains a lot about you.
For someone who says they don’t like interacting with me you sure do it a lot.
Go run along and screenshot someone else’s chart and post it.
im not sure what most of this means but you're right that i should probably try harder to not get triggered by comments as bviously stupid as the ones that absolved allowing sam freaking darnold to do what he did yesterday. ill own that one.
Yesterday’s defensive performance wasn’t great but it also wasn’t terrible.
Saying it wasn’t great but wasn’t bad enough to complete lose them the game is absolving them?
Keep digging the ditch little buddy.
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Yesterday’s defensive performance wasn’t great but it also wasn’t terrible.
Saying it wasn’t great but wasn’t bad enough to complete lose them the game is absolving them?
Keep digging the ditch little buddy.
if you think letting sam darnold go 19 for 24 at 8.7 y/a isn't terrible you dont seem to know what terrible is. yesterday was the best comp% of his career in a single game. on the road, first game with new team.
14 points at half isn’t something to brag about… lol
the game didnt end in the first half. they gave up the td drive to open the 2nd half to make it 21-3 in like 2 minutes. but hey nothing says strong not intellectually dishonest discussion like pandering to bbi's most serial dupe stalker.
Giving up 28 points per game is awful. Just stop.
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Despite the QB with the bargain B+/A contract actively shitting himself.
14 points at half isn’t something to brag about… lol
weird, so you dont think it's an achievement to have held sam freaking darnold to a 13/14, 151 pass yards, 1 TD, 28 point pace first half even when he didnt get the ball first and was -1 in TO differential?
did you not see the 1 incompletion in there?
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Despite the QB with the bargain B+/A contract actively shitting himself.
the game didnt end in the first half. they gave up the td drive to open the 2nd half to make it 21-3 in like 2 minutes. but hey nothing says strong not intellectually dishonest discussion like pandering to bbi's most serial dupe stalker.
You are not one to discuss intellectual dishonesty.
No shit the game didn’t end in the first half ( at least by time standards, it effectively was over at 7-3). What else would not great/not terrible mean? The defense was fine in the first half, are they supposed to pitch a shutout?
21 points against, 3-10 on third downs, and two turnovers isn’t a terrible performance. I’d wager nearly 3/4 of the league could win a game if their defense had a day like that. It wasn’t even a top 7 performance of Darnold’s career.
The only way the defense would have made a difference in the second half yesterday would be if they instituted a rule where the defense can cause an offense negative points.
The defense didn’t give up 28 points. They gave up 21 which would be league average.
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Would tie for last in football last year.
The defense didn’t give up 28 points. They gave up 21 which would be league average.
See you’re twisting facts knowing full well I mean.
They gave up 14 at half. Simple math 14 x 2 = 28.
They then proceeded to drive right down the field to make it 21-3. They threw the ball once in the fourth quarter and a total of 3 times in their last 4 possessions. After the pick 6, they mailed it in. Saying anything otherwise is disingenuous and makes you look wrong.
The defense was bad yesterday. It’s ok to say it.
20 teams scored more than 10 points a game in the first half last year.
20 teams gave up more than 21 points a game last year.
If it’s as simple as multiplying the first half points by two, how come the Giants didn’t get 6 points? They were trying the whole time.
28 points wouldn’t even be dead last last year, in fact it would only be dead last once since 2019.
But yep - that’s “fine”. Especially to the legend of Sam Darnold and his total of 1 incompletion in the first half. And for the argument of facts - how many teams averaged 14 at half last year. You’re using 10 but last time I checked 14 is more than 10.
They won by 17 points. A competent offense could have won with the defense yesterday.
But yep - that’s “fine”. Especially to the legend of Sam Darnold and his total of 1 incompletion in the first half. And for the argument of facts - how many teams averaged 14 at half last year. You’re using 10 but last time I checked 14 is more than 10.
You realize that when scoring goes by 3 and 7s, 14 vs 10 isn’t that much of a difference on a one game sample right?
So if they Giants gave up a fg instead of a touchdown and it was 10-3 you would have a different opinion about how the defense played in the first half?
Thanks for playing.
You realize that when scoring goes by 3 and 7s, 14 vs 10 isn’t that much of a difference on a one game sample right?
So if they Giants gave up a fg instead of a touchdown and it was 10-3 you would have a different opinion about how the defense played in the first half?
Depends on how the other team played. But yesterday? Yeah probably. Cause a one score and a two score game is a big difference in the NFL.
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Yesterday’s defensive performance wasn’t great but it also wasn’t terrible. A defensive performance you can win with. Minnesota never had to take any chances the Giants could take advantage of with Darnold because they knew they didn’t have to to win.
On Daboll, it’s clear from his body language last year and on hard knocks he doesn’t want Jones as his QB.
a defensive performance you can win with? sam darnold had his best game in 5 years and it wasnt even because he just threw balls up to justin jefferson. he only had like 1 incompletion in the first half. he ended 19/24 and they averaged 6.1 yards per play even after throttling it down in the 2nd half.
they easily would have allowed 30+ points to sam darnold in his first game as a viking without his starting TE and with Addison leaving the game injured if the vikings needed to keep trying yesterday.
+1. I thought BOTH teams pretty muc(ph stopped playing hard in the 3rd quarter. It was palpable. No one on the field thought the Giants could make it a game.
The same posters absolved Daboll even though the opposing coach called him out after the game lol.
You guys seem to be putting a lot of stock into what a coach said to his team in the post game locker room speech. I remember when Daboll gave Wink a game ball post game once.
If the team was so unprepared how did the oline get the 7th highest pass block grade in the league and how were the wide receivers getting open all day?
There’s no “agenda”. Jones is and will be the number one problem with this team until he is replaced.
Can't speak for the coach who needs to get his shit together and make the right decision at QB.
Unfortunately I think Dunk is correct neither John nor Tim are going anywhere. So I propose the Giants go the other way. I know it's crazy and has 0.0% chance of happening but hear me out.
Make Tim McDonnell the GM or give him the title John Mara had when Wellington was alive and have the GM report to him and let him have final say over all football decisions.
Maybe it's time to give him authority? When the season ends have Tim be the ownership face to the media not John. He'd be a fresh voice to the fan base if nothing else. At this point anything John Mara says publicly adds gas to the fan base fire. What do the Giants owners have to lose at this point?
Think about it, having an owner (Tim McDonnell is an owner) report to the GM who has become a here today gone tomorrow employee at 1925 Giants way is insanity. I think it's created a corporate culture that has turned the Giants into a petrie dish of dysfunction.
The Giants organizational structure is ripe for creating cliques and human nature is that middle level employees will wind up undermining senior level employees even if they're not trying to when there is an owner of the business in their daily meetings/contact. It's unavoidable.
“I don’t think it holds any more sway,’’ John Mara said. “That has not been my experience here. I listen to them. There are many voices in this building but the only two voices at the end of the day that matter are the head coach and the general manager. They make the final determination. [Chris Mara and McDonnell] do not have undue influence on the final decisions that are made here. They absolutely do not.’’
The quotes are from an article in the NY Post written by Paul Schwartz 1/12/2022 right before Schoen and Daboll were hired. Now we're looking at the 2nd failed GM and 4th failed HC since Coughlin and Reese were fired.
Going through another GM and HC hiring cycle is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results if they keep the same organizational structure. It's insanity.
Have at me. What else do we have to talk about at this point?
And if they really knew how good Dex was going to be then he probably should have been picked earlier at #6. And Thomas was the most experienced left tackle prospect in his OT class, and taken #4 overall...not very surprising.
Would recommend, that anyone in that building saying that someone in that building is a good evaluator, that they just shut the hell up.