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| Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are fools if they don’t recognize the risk here. John Mara will react to empty seats. He did so in 2016, 2018, 2020, and 2022. When fans stop showing up, he starts firing people. He’s done it over and over again. Those claiming otherwise are not living in the real world. Twelve years of mostly shitty football has taken its toll on this fanbase. America of the 2020’s is not America of the 1960’s-1970’s. Demographics, entertainment options, attention spans, and patience levels are vastly different. I think I have a a decent feel for the pulse of the fanbase. They are tired. This isn’t fun anymore. It’s one thing to lose for a decade, but it’s another to constantly get embarrassed, especially by the Cowboys and Eagles. I made this claim in The Forum and I’ll make it again here, I’m not sure the fanbase will accept heading into 2024 with Daniel Jones as the projected year-long starter at quarterback. If the team somehow starts off 3-1, opinions and support levels can change rapidly, but the odds on that happening are not great. It’s far more likely that the League schedules a Giants-Cowboys Sunday or Monday night game to start the season, with a rusty Jones getting shellacked 35-10. You could see the bottom drop out in Week 1 or 2. And would anyone be shocked to hear these words in Week 6? “Daniel Jones is questionable to return with a neck injury.” Whether they know it or not, Schoen and Daboll will be on thin ice in 2024. Unless something strange happens to all three teams, the Eagles and Cowboys will still be vastly superior to the Giants next year. I’m not sure Schoen and Daboll can survive another 5-12 type season with no hope at quarterback. The stands will be empty. On the other hand, some young exciting player at the position buys them time because the fans have hope. They will come out to watch a losing product if they have hope in the future and there is someone entertaining to watch, be that Caleb Williams, Drake Maye, or Jayden Daniels. There is also the possibility the team trades up into the late first round, and take one of the lesser regarded prospects. Jones then serves as the bridge quarterback until this guy is ready. The risk there is this, do the Giants want to look back on 2024 as they year they passed up on Williams, May, or Daniels for someone like Bo Nix, J.J. McCarthy, or Michael Penix? So do Schoen and Daboll want to continue to tie their fate to Jones? There is no guarantee that even if the Giants fix the offensive line and add more weapons that Jones will win. His injury history suggests he will have trouble even finishing the season healthy. But won’t Schoen and Daboll also be tying their fate to the new quarterback? Yes. But maybe they would feel better sinking or swimming with the guy they drafted, who isn’t already damaged goods. Meanwhile, there are those still clinging to the belief that Jones’ injuries won’t be an issue. That if you just give him an offensive line and a #1 receiver, everything will be fine and Jones can lead the Giants past the Eagles and Cowboys. Jones will triple his TD throw average of the past four years. It’s not impossible. It would be a really nice story for the young man. But it’s starting to sound more like a prayer than accepting reality at this point. If ownership did not have any deciding role in retaining Daniel Jones, they should be asking uncomfortable questions as to why they were asked to write a $160 million check for someone who the team is already possibly seeking to replace. On the other hand, if ownership did have a role in bringing back Jones because of some emotional connection, this is further evidence they should keep out of personnel matters. This is a time for tough decisions, not misplaced loyalty. |
The evidence is starting to pile up. It's still a dysfunctional mess here.
I totally agree, no energy or motivation. It won't be long before Daboll loses this team for good.
While Jones was horrid, it is NOT all on him.
The team prep and readiness was abysmal
I have some stuff to say to this. Too many in a vacuum decisions being made here. There were a NUMBER of very easy to see plays that were missed yesterday that change the narrative of the entire day.
The defense giving up some drives is not a huge surprise, in fact we said the Offense has to win this game. What happened yesterday was a HUGE let down in two major areas of the offense..
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Is allow Daboll to pick his QB.
The OL was functional.....next year, hopefully professional.
The WRs and TEs need maturity.....another year should help.
Defense is close..... needs a stud DE.....and corner help.
They're not going to survive this. I'll have more on this tonight.
I mentioned this on another thread, the one thing that will get Mara to move are empty seats. He hates those optics. And look, Schoen and Daboll would deserve it. It's year 3, this is Schoen's roster, and like it or not, he is the one who signed up for 4 more years of Daniel Jones.
The only other question will be is how much weight did John Mara apply to the scale in making the QB decisions? I don't give a shit what happened in Hard Knocks, there was a reason there were no cameras in Mara's suite. Who knows what he told Schoen to do behind those doors.
If the Schoen/Daboll experiment is ended, we'll have been through 3 GM's, 5 HC's and 2 QB's since the last SB. The one constant will be John Mara and his equally inept family members. My fear is that Schoen/Daboll's failures will convince Mara that his instincts were right all along. God help us.
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Dabs did not have this team ready to play for the second str8 year. This is not a good head coach folks.
While Jones was horrid, it is NOT all on him.
The team prep and readiness was abysmal
I have some stuff to say to this. Too many in a vacuum decisions being made here. There were a NUMBER of very easy to see plays that were missed yesterday that change the narrative of the entire day.
The defense giving up some drives is not a huge surprise, in fact we said the Offense has to win this game. What happened yesterday was a HUGE let down in two major areas of the offense..
Yep, a merely functional QB makes yesterday's an entirely different game. Dabs knows this, which tells me he has zero real input into who the QB is.
Again, the rot goes to the top.
But you're so fucking spot on. This was the least surprising development ever and it was obvious that the clearest possibility was coming to fruition from like the second or third play of the season.
How the team goes in without leaving themselves any types of ulterior options for the season in the event that DJ completely shit the bed is mind boggling. Especially considering that was the MOST LIKELY OUTCOME!
I think they will be in a position to get their #1 or #2 choice in 2025.
The team is fine - we just need a QB
Jones does not excuse anyone else involved. The GM and HC are accountable for the performance on the field, no matter the reason. These men have not shown enough to say with confidence that if we remove Daniel Jones we're on our way to long term success. If Jones is so bad that makes that an impossibility to tell, so what. He wouldn't be the first QB who proved to be a coach killer.
The defensive line, secondary, and run game need more talent. And the pass rush didn't look so effective yesterday either.
Look back at the hiring of the GM/HC. Tisch was all over that process and then followed by being very visible in the drafts. If JS/BD didn't want DJ they had multiple paths to take and great leverage angles to play. They chose DJ. Not on JM imv.
If they don't turn it around then both should go.
There was no reason to bring him back this year. If you weren't drafting a QB in round 1- take a chance on a FA or even Devito. If you catch lightning in a bottle- great. If they are bad, you put yourself at the top of the draft.
You know exactly what you have in Jones. Zero reason to bring him back this year.
The OL was functional.....next year, hopefully professional.
The WRs and TEs need maturity.....another year should help.
Defense is close..... needs a stud DE.....and corner help.
The problem is the death spiral. This could get ugly in a hurry, and if the Giants really lose control--think 2-15--Daboll's not going to be able to recruit a staff for 2025, because they will want more job security. That's when you know you have to move on.
Honestly, if this year is a total washout, they should clean house and let a new GM/coach pair start fresh: if they are truly abysmal this year, Schoen would deserve to be fired.
Mara had been criticized for years, for staying "in house" or only hiring people he "knew" and was comfortable with.
This time, he hired someone from OUTSIDE his comfort zone (Schoen) who hired a guy that logic dictated, should be a pretty good HC.
If Mara has to start, AGAIN, how does he proceed?
The one constant is he apparently, has ZERO ability to hire the right people, (just as his dad didn't).
So, this organization is really screwed at this point in time. The only way out, is for the Tisch family to make the Mara's give up power and find a neutral party to be the decision maker.
I have NO faith that will ever happen.
Unless things change before October we need a HC first and foremost. I swear Daboll was abducted by body snatchers and replaced with a clone. Look closer. It isn't Brian Daboll anymore.
- lost its rookie QB before game 1
- does not have a fan base that is known for traveling well
- is not expected to contend for the playoffs
And it was the first game of the season, suggesting that the home fans should at least show up with a glimmer of optimism. (Nobody I spoke to even before the debacle was optimistic.)
Just wait for the divisional games, gonna be a ton of Eagles and Cowboys fans in MetLife.
John deserves all of this.
So predictable.
Yeah, that was stupid and the beer talking.
But as I said on the podcast in and in my game preview, everything depended on the quarterback. He could have gone two ways, and he decided to crumble. What I didn't have on my bingo card was Daboll turning into Judge.
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Didn't you predict winning the division in your podcast with Jones playing well?
Yeah, that was stupid and the beer talking.
LOL fair enough!
There is no way you can make that commitment to them.
Also every game it becomes clearer and clearer that schoen has not drafted well. You’re going to trust him to get the QB right now?
These guys are done. Time to trade who you can and get draft picks for the next regime.
He seems disinterested. His press conferences come across like he is a smug dick.
Maybe Jones was forced on him and he knew he couldnt win with him. That would be enough to send someone over the top
.
But then you have Woodstock saying that it WAS all Schoen/Daboll's idea. I respect Woodstock's asshattery, but I just get the feeling he's reporting the company line, which is quickly shifting to damage control.
Schoen's comment to Saquon screams LOSER.
What FA could they have signed? Who could they have traded for? Who could they have drafted and at what cost?
They didn't pick up Jones' 5th year option. They didn't give him the number he wanted until there was only a few minutes left on the clock deadline.
I personally think Schoen looked at the available options and decided that re-signing Jones and hoping for the best was their best option.
And he was still trying to get Saquon back as well. Let's say they tagged Jones and just let Barkley walk. Now you have Jones on the $32M tag. I don't see how the situation would be any better on the field.
They's still be stuck with Jones and pretty much the same issues. Maybe they'd have had the money to sign one more FA, but not a starting QB, so that still doesn't overcome that issue.
The cost was what the market said it costs. If Prescott has just raised the bar to $60M, $40M wouldn't look all that bad for the 2022 version of Jones. Clearly no one wants to pay anything for what Jones has shown post-2022.
Still, Schoen explored Drake May. And sure, they could have taken McCarthy -- who's out for the year, so the Giants would STILL be playing Jones.
As for the second tier guys, Nix, Penix, trading back into the bottom of round 1 would have cost most of the remaining 2024 draft picks (if not future pics) in a year they only had 6 picks -- and still too many holes to fill. And Jones was still going to be around this year, so a rookie would likely have sat, regardless.
Signing Jones and hoping he'd get back to 2022 form was a calculated risk (or devil's bargain). It hasn't worked out so far, but I don't see what better options Schoen had if they'd let Jones walk. A season with Tyrod Taylor (who can't stay healthy either) at QB would have been pretty dreadful, too.
If Jones and the team suck as bad as yesterday all year, maybe they'll be in a position to draft a QB next year. Maybe they go all in on Carson Beck (or whoever they like). But if they have to trade up, it will once again cost them the ability to address other positions. And this team still has a lot of problems not named Jones.
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Didn't you predict winning the division in your podcast with Jones playing well?
But as I said on the podcast in and in my game preview, everything depended on the quarterback. He could have gone two ways, and he decided to crumble. What I didn't have on my bingo card was Daboll turning into Judge.
That's interesting. Can you elaborate a little more on that (whether on here or the podcast)? Am I missing something?
What FA could they have signed? Who could they have traded for? Who could they have drafted and at what cost?
They didn't pick up Jones' 5th year option. They didn't give him the number he wanted until there was only a few minutes left on the clock deadline.
I personally think Schoen looked at the available options and decided that re-signing Jones and hoping for the best was their best option.
And he was still trying to get Saquon back as well. Let's say they tagged Jones and just let Barkley walk. Now you have Jones on the $32M tag. I don't see how the situation would be any better on the field.
They's still be stuck with Jones and pretty much the same issues. Maybe they'd have had the money to sign one more FA, but not a starting QB, so that still doesn't overcome that issue.
The cost was what the market said it costs. If Prescott has just raised the bar to $60M, $40M wouldn't look all that bad for the 2022 version of Jones. Clearly no one wants to pay anything for what Jones has shown post-2022.
Still, Schoen explored Drake May. And sure, they could have taken McCarthy -- who's out for the year, so the Giants would STILL be playing Jones.
As for the second tier guys, Nix, Penix, trading back into the bottom of round 1 would have cost most of the remaining 2024 draft picks (if not future pics) in a year they only had 6 picks -- and still too many holes to fill. And Jones was still going to be around this year, so a rookie would likely have sat, regardless.
Signing Jones and hoping he'd get back to 2022 form was a calculated risk (or devil's bargain). It hasn't worked out so far, but I don't see what better options Schoen had if they'd let Jones walk. A season with Tyrod Taylor (who can't stay healthy either) at QB would have been pretty dreadful, too.
If Jones and the team suck as bad as yesterday all year, maybe they'll be in a position to draft a QB next year. Maybe they go all in on Carson Beck (or whoever they like). But if they have to trade up, it will once again cost them the ability to address other positions. And this team still has a lot of problems not named Jones.
Hope isn’t a plan. You don’t sign a QB to 4/$160 hoping he’ll play better. This is 100% on Schoen. He should have thrown the trans tag on Jones and let him shop the market. NOBODY was paying him that money.
What FA could they have signed? Who could they have traded for? Who could they have drafted and at what cost?
They didn't pick up Jones' 5th year option. They didn't give him the number he wanted until there was only a few minutes left on the clock deadline.
I personally think Schoen looked at the available options and decided that re-signing Jones and hoping for the best was their best option.
And he was still trying to get Saquon back as well. Let's say they tagged Jones and just let Barkley walk. Now you have Jones on the $32M tag. I don't see how the situation would be any better on the field.
They's still be stuck with Jones and pretty much the same issues. Maybe they'd have had the money to sign one more FA, but not a starting QB, so that still doesn't overcome that issue.
The cost was what the market said it costs. If Prescott has just raised the bar to $60M, $40M wouldn't look all that bad for the 2022 version of Jones. Clearly no one wants to pay anything for what Jones has shown post-2022.
Still, Schoen explored Drake May. And sure, they could have taken McCarthy -- who's out for the year, so the Giants would STILL be playing Jones.
As for the second tier guys, Nix, Penix, trading back into the bottom of round 1 would have cost most of the remaining 2024 draft picks (if not future pics) in a year they only had 6 picks -- and still too many holes to fill. And Jones was still going to be around this year, so a rookie would likely have sat, regardless.
Signing Jones and hoping he'd get back to 2022 form was a calculated risk (or devil's bargain). It hasn't worked out so far, but I don't see what better options Schoen had if they'd let Jones walk. A season with Tyrod Taylor (who can't stay healthy either) at QB would have been pretty dreadful, too.
If Jones and the team suck as bad as yesterday all year, maybe they'll be in a position to draft a QB next year. Maybe they go all in on Carson Beck (or whoever they like). But if they have to trade up, it will once again cost them the ability to address other positions. And this team still has a lot of problems not named Jones.
They could have signed Winston, Minshew or Tannehill. Could have traded for Tyler Huntley. All of these options could have even started the season as the backup QB and still provided an off ramp that would lead us to watchable football.
I'm not saying any of those would have been best for the long term health of the franchise, but at least the season wouldn't be over before halftime of the first game.
Taylor and Cultlets?
Also, lastly (and possibly the best option out of all the ones I listed, which are admittedly not great but would still ALL be better than DJ)... Justin Fields was traded for a 6th round pick.
A Fields reclamation project would have been a low risk, high upside move, and given Daboll the type of running QB he's at least shown an ability to scheme to success with.
If you wanted to be competitive, there were a plethora of better options than Jones.
If the idea is to tank, there are STILL better options than Jones, since you have to pay him if he gets hurt.
Jones should not ever suit up for the Giants again.
Are you guys going to open up a thread with questions to be answered?
Taylor and Cultlets?
Yesterday three veteran QBs won their first start on a new team: Justin Fields, Jacoby Brissett, and Sam Darnold. Combined their 2024 cap hit doesn't amount to half of Jones's.
Here's a perfectly reasonable alternative scenario to signing Jones after 2022:
1. Draft a QB in the 2023 draft to sit behind the 2023 opening day starter, Tyrod Taylor. Let's say that QB is Clayton Tune (he went in the 5th round)
2. Get Tune some starts after Thanksgiving when it becomes clear the Giants aren't going anywhere
3. Enter January 2024 with options to pursue Cousins OR pursue a lower tier of FA QBs AND/OR draft a QB based on Tune's performances in 2023
Such an approach would have given the Giants more cap space and more options at QB. it's the opposite of the full bloom love bullshit the Giants actually did and have done forever.
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I'll cover in the podcast.
Are you guys going to open up a thread with questions to be answered?
We've done shows with Q&As and intend to do so regularly. I think tonight will be more based on the catastrophic implications of this game, some of the insightful posts from posters on this site. Our current plan is to have one show per week dedicated more to Q&As so my guess is we'll do that after tonight (Tuesday or Wednesday).
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In comment 16602466 GF1080 said:
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Didn't you predict winning the division in your podcast with Jones playing well?
But as I said on the podcast in and in my game preview, everything depended on the quarterback. He could have gone two ways, and he decided to crumble. What I didn't have on my bingo card was Daboll turning into Judge.
That's interesting. Can you elaborate a little more on that (whether on here or the podcast)? Am I missing something?
Podcast. I've got a lot to say.
With far less consequence... I'm not going to plan my retirement on the hope that I win the lottery.
One does not "sign off" on Crypto-tanking, that defeats the "Crypto" Part. The whole point is ownership and ideally management have plausible deniability. So they can't have discussed it openly. That doesn't mean it isn't understood what is going on, and I think this is exactly what is going on, and yes, Mara knows it. He'll eat it because he knows Jones has the contract he does because of him, and he has to eat it, and the tanking, to make it right. It's Why Schoen knows he isn't getting fired, not after this year, anyway.
But you're so fucking spot on. This was the least surprising development ever and it was obvious that the clearest possibility was coming to fruition from like the second or third play of the season.
How the team goes in without leaving themselves any types of ulterior options for the season in the event that DJ completely shit the bed is mind boggling. Especially considering that was the MOST LIKELY OUTCOME!
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you beat me to it, would have made my thread just a post on here.
But you're so fucking spot on. This was the least surprising development ever and it was obvious that the clearest possibility was coming to fruition from like the second or third play of the season.
How the team goes in without leaving themselves any types of ulterior options for the season in the event that DJ completely shit the bed is mind boggling. Especially considering that was the MOST LIKELY OUTCOME!
I just don't get why everyone is so confused over this. I shal try and put it simply for you, sir. The plan is, either Jones works out, and lights it up, or the finish dead last and get first or second pick next years draft. That is the plan. Crypto-tanking, where you don't have to actually tank, after you've built the roster in such a way that you can't really win, which is what Schoen did.
Maybe the reason it appears to you that everyone is confused over this is that crypto tanking isn't a thing, and if it were, it's certainly not a thing the Giants are doing.
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Is allow Daboll to pick his QB.
The OL was functional.....next year, hopefully professional.
The WRs and TEs need maturity.....another year should help.
Defense is close..... needs a stud DE.....and corner help.
They're not going to survive this. I'll have more on this tonight.
So you think they're already gone .... after one week?
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In comment 16602300 George from PA said:
Quote:
Is allow Daboll to pick his QB.
The OL was functional.....next year, hopefully professional.
The WRs and TEs need maturity.....another year should help.
Defense is close..... needs a stud DE.....and corner help.
They're not going to survive this. I'll have more on this tonight.
So you think they're already gone .... after one week?
If they do what I it looks like they are going to do... I covered this in detail in the podcast.