Daniel Jones: When would you have pulled the plug?

whom would you have replaced him with..

Kenny Pickett
Baker Mayfield
Herbert
Fields
Willis
Darnold

et al. That's where I got stuck with this in multiple years.

In comment 16606000 RAIN said:

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whom would you have replaced him with.. Kenny Pickett Baker Mayfield Herbert Fields Willis Darnold et al. That's where I got stuck with this in multiple years.

After 2021, I would have gladly dumped Jones for Mayfield. I believe I said exactly that at the time.

a perfect chance at a clean break after 2022 with no financial ramifications.

It would have taken balls to do after a playoff season, but there is always a way to get something done and they would have been vindicated by Jones' poor play (or backup status) elsewhere.

Daboll and Schoen had the goodwill to do just about anything they wanted at that time and the fans would have listened. The team overall blew it and now nobody trusts this franchise especially since they paid and keep trotting Jones out there. Irony.

Herbert in 2020. I was banging the table for them to do it, and heard DG loved him. Therein lies a big part of the problem in forcing a crucial draft pick.

In comment 16606000 RAIN said:

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whom would you have replaced him with.. Kenny Pickett Baker Mayfield Herbert Fields Willis Darnold et al. That's where I got stuck with this in multiple years.

Fear of missing can't keep the team from trying to move on from a known poor player.

I've said it a million times; the Giants should be drafting a QB at some point in the draft every single year. Every. Single. Year.

In comment 16606000 RAIN said:

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whom would you have replaced him with.. Kenny Pickett Baker Mayfield Herbert Fields Willis Darnold et al. That's where I got stuck with this in multiple years.

My entire point of view was based on the idea that, right or wrong, Eli was the quarterback through 2019. So there was absolutely zero point to drafting a quarterback in 2019 if you weren't going to start him right away. And if you were going to take a flyer on DJ, the later second round was the earliest point to do so.

So drafting Josh Allen (edge) was a no brainer at six in 2019. And then Justin Herbert was a no brainer in 2020. Add Micah Parsons as the no brainer in 2021, and this franchise would be an unequivocal Super Bowl contender today. And none of this is rocket science. It was simply the best player available at the moment their draft card was due in the first round of each of those three drafts. A monkey with a Mel Kiper draft guide could have done a better job than Gettleman and the vaunted scouting department of this franchise.

And this is not hind sight. It is not revisionist history. It was well established on this forum at the time of each of those drafts by plenty of folks, including many on this very thread.

In comment 16606011 The Mike said:

Quote:

In comment 16606000 RAIN said: Quote: whom would you have replaced him with.. Kenny Pickett Baker Mayfield Herbert Fields Willis Darnold et al. That's where I got stuck with this in multiple years. My entire point of view was based on the idea that, right or wrong, Eli was the quarterback through 2019. So there was absolutely zero point to drafting a quarterback in 2019 if you weren't going to start him right away. And if you were going to take a flyer on DJ, the later second round was the earliest point to do so. So drafting Josh Allen (edge) was a no brainer at six in 2019. And then Justin Herbert was a no brainer in 2020. Add Micah Parsons as the no brainer in 2021, and this franchise would be an unequivocal Super Bowl contender today. And none of this is rocket science. It was simply the best player available at the moment their draft card was due in the first round of each of those three drafts. A monkey with a Mel Kiper draft guide could have done a better job than Gettleman and the vaunted scouting department of this franchise. And this is not hind sight. It is not revisionist history. It was well established on this forum at the time of each of those drafts by plenty of folks, including many on this very thread.

Yup

In comment 16606006 GiantTuff1 said:

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a perfect chance at a clean break after 2022 with no financial ramifications. It would have taken balls to do after a playoff season, but there is always a way to get something done and they would have been vindicated by Jones' poor play (or backup status) elsewhere. Daboll and Schoen had the goodwill to do just about anything they wanted at that time and the fans would have listened. The team overall blew it and now nobody trusts this franchise especially since they paid and keep trotting Jones out there. Irony.

The fan reaction if the season goes where it’s headed is going to be 1000x worse than the backlash for letting Jones walk after the playoff year and possibly tanking.

And the Giants should have moved on at that point to drafting a new QB (Mac Jones or Justin Fields) or signing a veteran FA of significance and drafting a mid-to-late rd QB and begin the “rebuild” process by moving on from major guys like Saquon

Its really impossible to believe that Jones made it through the 2021 season where he started 1-5 with 4 Tds to 4 ints and proceeded to get a season ending neck injury and an unrelated neck surgery in offseason and emerge from it without some form of serious competition arriving in FA or the draft

He was 9-17 as starter with 21 TDs to 17 ints over last 2 seasons over 26 games and was completely unchallenged and unquestioned as starter

Geno Smith, Carr and the other middling qb's who were free agents at that time. Jones wasn't worth any more than those guys. If he didn't want to sign for something in that neighborhood or less, it's on the phone to Mayfield, Trubisky, Minshew, Dobbs etc, and spend the money elsewhere on the team. If Jones walked, he walked; he just wasn't that good.

In comment 16606006 GiantTuff1 said:

Quote:

a perfect chance at a clean break after 2022 with no financial ramifications. It would have taken balls to do after a playoff season, but there is always a way to get something done and they would have been vindicated by Jones' poor play (or backup status) elsewhere. Daboll and Schoen had the goodwill to do just about anything they wanted at that time and the fans would have listened. The team overall blew it and now nobody trusts this franchise especially since they paid and keep trotting Jones out there. Irony.

Agree - and here's the thing.... The GM, coach, and front-office are the professionals. They scouted him before the season and hedged their bets by not picking up the option. If you had looked at 2022 even casually, you would have seen the Eagles game was a much more telling barometer of both Jones and the state of the team in general than the Vikings game. I remember multiple posters saying that. And I would expect our front office to do more than a casual, fan-level review!

As JonC notes, non-professionals could see it, so the people who have made a living out of this and are paid millions for their expertise sure as HELL should have seen it. Entirely foreseeable and predictable.

There wasn't a single moment this past Sunday that wasn't 100% foreseeable. That's why I'm livid right now - you keep doing the same thing and expecting different results?

After the playoff loss, Eagles QBs were laughing, saying he's a one-read QB and they knew where he was going. I'll dig it up, but I remember the rookie Seattle DB said the same thing last year. As others have, and as Minnesota players said after Sunday's game.

This has been plain as day to casual fans. Jones is just not able to process and make decisions quickly enough--even with the substantial scheming we're doing to hide his weaknesses.

Enough is enough.

Yessir, good post.

...

I never liked the pick and unfortunately I was correct.

Don't expect him to be a terrible as he was in week 1. He is not the answer here but I think they delay benching him as a PR move.

In comment 16605956 christian said:

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In comment 16605937 4xchamps said: Quote: revisionist history... what's the point of the question? so everyone can say they were right? You seem quite unhappy participating in this community.

He pulls off the amazing combination of being consistently wrong, and consistently condescending about it. One of the worst on BBI.

Mike, that's it, the Giants should hire this guy:

About the 5th year.
Once you didn't want him back, waffling got us here.

He shouldn't have started a game after that 2021 Denver game. That was not a good team to lose to like that and he still looked bad. That fumble was a joke.

Glennon starts every game and they go 0-17. Oh well. Maybe it's the shake up they needed.

In comment 16606049 Chris in LA said:

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After the playoff loss, Eagles QBs were laughing, saying he's a one-read QB and they knew where he was going. I'll dig it up, but I remember the rookie Seattle DB said the same thing last year. As others have, and as Minnesota players said after Sunday's game. This has been plain as day to casual fans. Jones is just not able to process and make decisions quickly enough--even with the substantial scheming we're doing to hide his weaknesses. Enough is enough.

The Seattle DB is Devon Witherspoon. Who said...

Quote:

"We knew he liked to stare down his first target," Witherspoon told NFL Network after the game. "We were just trusting the game plan the coaches laid out for us..."

In comment 16605965 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16605956 christian said: Quote: In comment 16605937 4xchamps said: Quote: revisionist history... what's the point of the question? so everyone can say they were right? You seem quite unhappy participating in this community. Our favorite poster makes a lot of appearances in that Stafford thread - our Fatfriend in Charlotte. Needless to say, unfortunately, he was wrong on Stafford.

Ooof, this one is particularly bad


an inverse proportion of condescension and knowledge - ( New Window )

absolutely did not want to draft Jones at #6. I also saw several of his games at Duke. I thought he was a second round player, even acknowledging that his OL was putrid and his WRs dropped the second most passes of any group of WRs in D1 football that year IIRC. Because QBs are routinely overdrafted, I would have grudgingly accepted taking him at #17, if only to get the fifth year option. But at #6 we passed on Josh Allen.

I would have used the FT on him after the Minnesota playoff win despite the $32.5M cap hit, and then let him go after the next season.

I was completely done with him as a fan after that hideous pick six against Seattle where he had Waller wide open in the end zone.

also would have strongly considered drafting Herbert in 2020 and trading Jones, although there is no way that would have happened.

In comment 16606080 santacruzom said:

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Ooof, this one is particularly bad an inverse proportion of condescension and knowledge - ( New Window )

Look, my Fatfriend may have been out of the country when this happened. Sometimes life gets in the way. Hopefully, this helps him if he's lurking... ;)

Even with the contract I would have drafted McCarthy.

UVA was a crap program for three decades before George Welsh.
Have to be very fortunate again to become relevant.

As soon as the Rams traded for Stafford, I knew to put my future on them to win the whole shabang.

In comment 16605937 4xchamps said:

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revisionist history... what's the point of the question? so everyone can say they were right?

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In comment 16605965 bw in dc said:

Quote:

In comment 16605956 christian said: Quote: In comment 16605937 4xchamps said: Quote: revisionist history... what's the point of the question? so everyone can say they were right? You seem quite unhappy participating in this community. Our favorite poster makes a lot of appearances in that Stafford thread - our Fatfriend in Charlotte. Needless to say, unfortunately, he was wrong on Stafford.

Not to mention our friend “Bryan” who said Jones would be as good as Stafford

Even if it meant Barkley walked.

.

That's what I remembered. And I remember being annoyed because the Eagles said it the season before. For F's sake, we're a year later and it's the same damned thing. Trotting him out for another snap is professional malpractice.

In comment 16606109 ajr2456 said:

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Quote: RE: Pat McAfee is pretty convinced the Colts are the destination with bw in dc : 1/26/2021 3:23 pm : link In comment 15134969 Zeke's Alibi said: Rodgers was just very good on McAfee's show (AR's weekly Tuesday appearance). Guy is a breath of fresh air with his candor, whether you agree or disagree with his opinions. I would love to see Rodgers with Reich or BB. Indy seems much closer to really competing, however, than the Pats, who have a lot of leaks in their dam...

I get a lot wrong, but I'm not sure what the issue is here. I said I would like to see Rodgers in Indy or New England.

Was the joke

In comment 16606028 ajr2456 said:

Quote:

In comment 16606006 GiantTuff1 said: Quote: a perfect chance at a clean break after 2022 with no financial ramifications. It would have taken balls to do after a playoff season, but there is always a way to get something done and they would have been vindicated by Jones' poor play (or backup status) elsewhere. Daboll and Schoen had the goodwill to do just about anything they wanted at that time and the fans would have listened. The team overall blew it and now nobody trusts this franchise especially since they paid and keep trotting Jones out there. Irony. The fan reaction if the season goes where it’s headed is going to be 1000x worse than the backlash for letting Jones walk after the playoff year and possibly tanking.

As it should be.

In comment 16606049 Chris in LA said:

Quote:

After the playoff loss, Eagles QBs were laughing, saying he's a one-read QB and they knew where he was going. I'll dig it up, but I remember the rookie Seattle DB said the same thing last year. As others have, and as Minnesota players said after Sunday's game. This has been plain as day to casual fans. Jones is just not able to process and make decisions quickly enough--even with the substantial scheming we're doing to hide his weaknesses. Enough is enough.

Good posts Chris.

The reason I’m so critical of Mara and 75% think Schoen and Daboll are being held hostage on this situation is we have seen this song and dance before with holding onto an owner loved QB much too long before (Eli), and we are seeing it again. I tend to believe this is coming top down because is so defies logic that there is almost no way Schoen and Daboll and the whole staff could be this deaf, blind, and stupid.

I have been a pretty consistent optimist. Liked enough of his historic game to think that he could do something with an improved OL and very talented receiving corps. I thought he played well except for fumbling his rookie year. Under Judge he made a horrible team look occasionally decent. Would have given him his option if medicals checked out. 2022 seemed like vindication. Team was awful in 2023 and he did not help. He had one good half and that Seattle game was an abomination.

But last week stands alone. Could not pull the trigger. This is not arm strength, nor is this processing. He is broken. This is Chuck Knoblach level of bad throws. He should not play again for the Giants. If you think you can win this year play Lock. If not play Devito and see if maybe he has something.

Barkley pick reaction. I think the Barkley pick was a reaction to the 2017 debacle and the Eagles winning the Superbowl. So you could go back to the Eli Manning benching to stop Mara from having to cover his tracks. That said they would have done something else stupid even if Eli was not benched. So I go back to the Atlanta Philadelphia playoff game and have the DB who decided to jump in the air to knee the ball in the air for an Eagles' completion stay on the ground and catch the pick 6 Nock Foles served up. The Eagles don't win the Superbowl and whatever happens with the Giants happens. Chances are Jones isn't drafted and whatever alternate universe of suck Mara has steered the franchise would be reality but hey, at least the Eagles would have not won the Superbowl

In comment 16606150 GiantTuff1 said:

Quote:

The reason I’m so critical of Mara and 75% think Schoen and Daboll are being held hostage on this situation is we have seen this song and dance before with holding onto an owner loved QB much too long before (Eli), and we are seeing it again. I tend to believe this is coming top down because is so defies logic that there is almost no way Schoen and Daboll and the whole staff could be this deaf, blind, and stupid.

Did you watch Hard Knocks? Palpitations signed-off on the trade idea for Schoen to move up if he wanted to make a deal. Why would Mara allow that if he is so dedicated to Jones?

Sorry, but the keys to the football operations at 1925 Giants Way are with Joe Schoen. He's calling the shots on football personnel.

The myth in all of this there should be no way Schoen could possibly like Jones. Alas, he does. And he's quadrupled down on the idea over two years.

New regime in. 5th year option declined. There was no upside in keeping him around. He should have been traded for a conditional draft pick.

It's why I so hated Mara's comments saying they've done everything possible to screw the kid up. Why say that? Schoen hasn't even been on the job for a day and you are making your opinion known. He should have been traded and Tyrod Taylor the starter.

Always a half measure.

I hated the pick at the time so I would have never drafted in the first place. But after he was a Giant? I would have let him go after '21.

In '22, Dabs/Kafka got all the juice out of him that they could running a very conservative, limited offense. Once they tried opening it up in '23, it went to hell in a hand basket. & it very well might cost Schoen & Dabs their respective gigs, which-@ the time-I'm completely fine with. Dabs almost seems resigned to his fate.

.

In comment 16606080 santacruzom said:

Quote:

In comment 16605965 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 16605956 christian said: Quote: In comment 16605937 4xchamps said: Quote: revisionist history... what's the point of the question? so everyone can say they were right? You seem quite unhappy participating in this community. Our favorite poster makes a lot of appearances in that Stafford thread - our Fatfriend in Charlotte. Needless to say, unfortunately, he was wrong on Stafford. Ooof, this one is particularly bad an inverse proportion of condescension and knowledge - ( New Window )

But still need to be careful with what you read.

Even archived posts have been known to be altered from time to time.

In comment 16605893 santacruzom said:

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this thread about Matthew Stafford is a gem to read years later Stafford and Lions to part ways - ( New Window )

I was wrong about the 11th pick which ended up being Toney. That would have been a great hypothetical trade for NYG.

Is keep him and Daboll repeating their putrid approach to scoring….run the table all the way up to nov. 10 in Germany, play that game with last Sunday’s incompetence and lock up the #1 pick and let Little Bill pick a qb….(JS needs his walking papers too)….With coach Belichick his giants will NEVER give up a 100 yard drive, which was the most demoralizing element to the first game. Stadium’s PA system should have been playing “WIPEOUT” during that entire Vikings drive.

I don't post much, sorry for the long post and if the format is bad.

I wasn't extremely excited about the pick but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Thought he would sit behind Eli for a season.

Then came his 1st career start vs TB, which was a fantastic game to start a career, followed by a bad stretch that I thought might be part of the learning curve for a rookie, and then he set a few rookie records, 24 passing TDs in 12 games (which I believe was on pace for most in a full rookie season), and four games with 4+ TDs, not bad at all for a rookie season. The biggest complaints I remember were about his fumbles. I can't believe how much he's regressed from his rookie season to his 6th one. He has never passed for 3 touchdowns in a game ever since. Actually, he's never thrown for exactly 3 TD in any game in his career, which is incredibly odd.

Then came the 2020 season, 2 touchdowns in 4 games to open the season, only 47 points scored. Ironically, I started giving up on him during his good streak, when he was slow to pass the ball in the 2point conversion to tie the game vs TB. Then I lost a little more faith with each passing game, @ CIN (yes, even in a win), vs ARI and @ BAL. At that point was the first time I was ready to move on.

But Daniel had the knack to flash once in a while so you'd reconsider giving him a shot, especially since this was our only option since ownership would never move on. The clutch game vs DAL to close the 2020 season and possibly make the playoffs was a good one. 2021 was a mess, with the lone bright spot being the NO game, I couldn't believe how the Giants didn't move on then. Especially with the neck injury.

2022 was a nice season to watch, not necessarily a great QB season, but a great leader of the team season by Daniel, capped off by one of his best games @ MIN in the playoffs. After that game? Everything has been a completely disaster, even his lone good moment @ ARI last season was only possible because he played like shit before halftime. And the Cardinals were a terrible team.

So, to summarise, I was ready to move on ever since the BAL game in 2020 and the most iconic play that made me doubt him was the late 2 point attempt vs TB.

The only pass I give ownership and the GM is that I believe it was too soon in the Daniel Jones saga to draft Justin Herbert, then 2021 and 2022 were very bad QB drafts (outside of Brock Purdy which nobody knew would be good). 2023 is the 1st draft where opportunity and cost could line up, and it definitely lined up in 2024, inexcusable to leave this past draft without a QB, no matter how good Nabers might become.

Just a final observation, imo, if your QB isn't Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, or in the same tier, you should NEVER stop trying to upgrade the position, wheter it's through the Draft, Free Agency, a trade, whatever it takes. The only way to guarantee you'll fail is if you never try.

I would have franchised him and be done with him now.

From that '21 Stafford thread-

Yeah, agree with GT.
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/23/2021 7:30 pm : link
We'd be fortunate if Jones becomes Stafford. Again, I'm not willing to give up on DJ at this moment, but he needs to show a lot this upcoming season.

I also said in that threat that I thought the Pats would be good in '21, which they were.

(Patting myself on the back, Haha.)

In comment 16606206 jomps said:

Quote:

I don't post much, sorry for the long post and if the format is bad. I wasn't extremely excited about the pick but I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Thought he would sit behind Eli for a season. Then came his 1st career start vs TB, which was a fantastic game to start a career, followed by a bad stretch that I thought might be part of the learning curve for a rookie, and then he set a few rookie records, 24 passing TDs in 12 games (which I believe was on pace for most in a full rookie season), and four games with 4+ TDs, not bad at all for a rookie season. The biggest complaints I remember were about his fumbles. I can't believe how much he's regressed from his rookie season to his 6th one. He has never passed for 3 touchdowns in a game ever since. Actually, he's never thrown for exactly 3 TD in any game in his career, which is incredibly odd. Then came the 2020 season, 2 touchdowns in 4 games to open the season, only 47 points scored. Ironically, I started giving up on him during his good streak, when he was slow to pass the ball in the 2point conversion to tie the game vs TB. Then I lost a little more faith with each passing game, @ CIN (yes, even in a win), vs ARI and @ BAL. At that point was the first time I was ready to move on. But Daniel had the knack to flash once in a while so you'd reconsider giving him a shot, especially since this was our only option since ownership would never move on. The clutch game vs DAL to close the 2020 season and possibly make the playoffs was a good one. 2021 was a mess, with the lone bright spot being the NO game, I couldn't believe how the Giants didn't move on then. Especially with the neck injury. 2022 was a nice season to watch, not necessarily a great QB season, but a great leader of the team season by Daniel, capped off by one of his best games @ MIN in the playoffs. After that game? Everything has been a completely disaster, even his lone good moment @ ARI last season was only possible because he played like shit before halftime. And the Cardinals were a terrible team. So, to summarise, I was ready to move on ever since the BAL game in 2020 and the most iconic play that made me doubt him was the late 2 point attempt vs TB. The only pass I give ownership and the GM is that I believe it was too soon in the Daniel Jones saga to draft Justin Herbert, then 2021 and 2022 were very bad QB drafts (outside of Brock Purdy which nobody knew would be good). 2023 is the 1st draft where opportunity and cost could line up, and it definitely lined up in 2024, inexcusable to leave this past draft without a QB, no matter how good Nabers might become. Just a final observation, imo, if your QB isn't Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, or in the same tier, you should NEVER stop trying to upgrade the position, wheter it's through the Draft, Free Agency, a trade, whatever it takes. The only way to guarantee you'll fail is if you never try.

Great post.

Oh yeah. Totally forgot about that 2 point conversion fuck up of his in the TV game.