Why not bring them all back? LT said at the game Sunday that the 50-year-olds on the sideline could've put on a better performance than the current players.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
directive on Giants letterhead with Mara's fingerprints on it?
Mara has repeatedly and publicly expressed his love for Daniel Jones, including at the introductory press conference foe Schoen. Marw is in the building every day, lurking in the halls, in meeting rooms, staffing the personnel department with his blood relatives. There is quote after quote after quote where Mara processes love for Jones in the media.
But I guess behind closed doors he's like "Ha ha, I was just joking. If you want to let him walk that's totally cool with me."?
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
All that matters is what the players believe. And you're fooling yourself if you think some of them are not making the exact same assumptions that many here are.
"Why is a guy who is a QB genius playing this guy who we all know isn't very good when his job is in on the line?"
Answer 1 is he can't see what is obvious to all of us, Answer 2 is that it isn't his decision. Neither of those help Daboll.
At this point without any forward winds in our sails....
I would fire Schoen/Daboll and hire Bill as GM and Gruden as HC.
I know. I know. You will whack me for this....but No one knows offenses like Gruden. No one knows quarterbacking like Gruden. No one works harder/longer than Gruden.
I heard Gruden on NFL radio last week. The guy is itching for another chance and we need a complete change of direction.
I would trust Gruden with our next QB rather than this clown show!
It’s evident they tried pretty hard to get a QB in the draft. I don’t think Daboll’s fate is tied to Jones and it shouldn’t be. He’s shown he can clearly coach. I’m actually more down on Schoen than Daboll right now.
This is not a pro DG comment, but so far this regime has had its best year with a largely DG roster.
and what he's done in his career. He's truly one of the greatest of all time.
He'll also be 73 next year and as I said yesterday, we need to bring in innovators, not historians. Bill will 73 next season, I fear the game has passed him by. I'd be happy with him as a consultant in a coach or GM search, but his last few years in NE as a GM/HC produced putrid results and an even worse roster.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
I don't know abut Mara, but it's a pretty good guess that Daboll did not want Jones as his QB this season.
RE: BB wanted full control in 2015 (after TC was fired)
I were him, I would be doing it on my own terms a la Parcells after the 1983 debacle. Do it his way, his attitude , yell, scream, throw computers, switch QBs, OLs, coaches or anything else. Be your own man and go out with your head held high knowing you tried your best.
enough of the Belichick garbage. It's passed him by, just like it did for Shula, Noll and Landry. It happens.
and it wasn't gonna happen then, not so sure it would happen now either.
Did a discussion happen then?
I don't know, there were messages sent back and forth to gauge the situation through intermediaries. It didn't get very far as BB wanted to be GM and HC, etc.
1. Daboll has shown much more than Schoen--Daboll took a terrible roster to the playoffs in 2022 and won 6 games with no QB and no offensive line in 2023.
2. The two obviously have a really strong working relationship.
3. There's no situation where you can fire Schoen and keep Daboll.
4. If you do bottom out this year you may as well go for a full clean slate: new GM, new coach, new QB, new scheme. Vrabel and Belichick are both attractive from a Giants' perspective, or they can belatedly go the Shanahan tree path.
5. If you don't bottom out--if they eke out 6 or 7 wins again--it's reasonable to give Schoen and Daboll a shot at their QB.
The key will be "Will Daboll be able to recruit a staff?" If the answer is yes, then you can keep him, but if not, it's time to rip the whole thing down.
RE: At this point without any forward winds in our sails....
I would fire Schoen/Daboll and hire Bill as GM and Gruden as HC.
I know. I know. You will whack me for this....but No one knows offenses like Gruden. No one knows quarterbacking like Gruden. No one works harder/longer than Gruden.
I heard Gruden on NFL radio last week. The guy is itching for another chance and we need a complete change of direction.
I would trust Gruden with our next QB rather than this clown show!
If Schoen goes, you need to either fire Daboll also, or at least let him know that the new GM will make the decision on whether he stays or not. You can't hire a new GM and tell him he needs to keep Daboll.
You can fire Daboll without letting Schoen go, but I am not sure what that does unless you believe Schoen has made the correct decisions in the draft and free agency and Daboll has simply failed to get the most out of the good players he has been given.
be patient and build stability in the giants organization. However, at this point the way fans have gotten punched in the gut with consistently bad starts and overall bad football. (with the exception of two seasons in the past 14 years.) The Giants have to do something drastic or risk losing the fan base. They need a big personality at GM and coach. Bring in Belichick as GM and Vrabel as coach or something of that magnitude. Joe Schoen is a nice guy but nice guy act is not going to cut it right now. They have to make a splash and bring in a big personality to turn the team around.
Since, Coughlin and Eli in 2006 I have never been a fire everyone type of fan. But the NY Giants have become a literally laughing stock and charity case. I live in South Jersey and Eagles fans I know are literally being sympathetic towards me. "Yea, the Giants are not good" because the Giants arent even a rival anymore they are a joke.
Giants must do something big or risk losing future fans.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Daboll is not a great coach. QB play aside, the team was not prepared
RE: There are 16 games to be played so it's a fluid situation
Ive taken jobs with staff I didnt hire. I knew that it would take 2-3 years to get the churn needed to drive the culture, behavior etc. Its business, but same rules apply.
I knew what I signed up for, i did get pushback on people I wanted to terminate, its frustrating. My choices are work in the system, push real hard on your vision, or just quit.
If I fail, its my fault. Even though there are some staffing remnants that need to go, I signed on.
I dont feel bad for this staff. When you take the job, you sell your vision to leadership. You need to push everyday.
If you give up then just leave because the team will see and feel it.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
I have no idea who is dictating that Jones should start, but I simply will not believe it’s Daboll. The guy has been an offensive coach in this league for more than a decade, he knows what he sees in a QB. I also firmly believe he was done with Jones after the tablet throwing incident following Jones’s pick 6 v Seattle.
My guess is that Mara is using the contract as an anvil around both Schoen and Daboll’s necks, basically saying, “you signed him to this contract, you need to straighten him out”. My only question is, when does Daboll get to pull the plug?
Next 2 games are on the road, my fear is that Mara will hold the line until he hears all of the boos raining down in the Dallas game.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
You are ignoring Mara's public statements concerning DJ. No question about it, Mara's irrational exuberance about DJ influences the type of QB room the Giants have.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
You are ignoring Mara's public statements concerning DJ. No question about it, Mara's irrational exuberance about DJ influences the type of QB room the Giants have.
Agreed... he does not weigh in on all player decisions, but he absolutely does when it comes to the QB or any player who is being used as a marketing tool like Saquon.
John seems to be more concerned about image when it comes to the QB. He wants a boy scout that will not embarrass the franchise.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
You are ignoring Mara's public statements concerning DJ. No question about it, Mara's irrational exuberance about DJ influences the type of QB room the Giants have.
Coupled with his "Barkley deserved better than to be traded" comments, make no mistake, Mara is always influencing personnel decisions. Some more than others.
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
I have no idea who is dictating that Jones should start, but I simply will not believe it’s Daboll. The guy has been an offensive coach in this league for more than a decade, he knows what he sees in a QB. I also firmly believe he was done with Jones after the tablet throwing incident following Jones’s pick 6 v Seattle.
My guess is that Mara is using the contract as an anvil around both Schoen and Daboll’s necks, basically saying, “you signed him to this contract, you need to straighten him out”. My only question is, when does Daboll get to pull the plug?
Next 2 games are on the road, my fear is that Mara will hold the line until he hears all of the boos raining down in the Dallas game.
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
RB isn’t QB, and Mara signed off on a $160M contract for Jones, while Barkley was a free agent. They are not nearly the same scenarios. No one can convince me that Daboll is OK with Jones’s as his QB. So then it is either Schoen or Mara, and I sincerely doubt that Schoen would ignore Daboll if he wanted to make a change.
I don’t think Mara is saying they have to start Jones, I think he is saying, “you guys signed him to this contract, you need to figure it out.” In many ways, that is defensible, but only if you utterly ignore all of the praise Mara has heaped on Jones over the years.
I mean, immediately following the Minny playoff win, Mara shouted “ we’re back”
and more tellingly, “we have our QB!” Does anyone in their right mind really think that Schoen was going to walk into Mara’s office a month later and say, “we’re going to let Daniel walk”? Come on, that is preposterous.
There is plenty to blame Schoen for - Daboll too, but much less so than Schoen, IMO - the size of the contract, the injury guarantee, the guaranteed $$$, but the idea that resigning Jones was all on Schoen is simply ridiculous and doesn’t hold up against the slightest level of scrutiny.
Again - you're pulling stuff out of your butt and trying to advance it as fact.
Yes, QB is more important than RB and the CEO of any business is going to have an opinion on what to do. Mara's looking at it from a different lens considering the myriad of responsibilities (off field) they put on their QB too. But that's all it is - a C Suite opinion.
If Schoen and Daboll didn't want to resign him but were spineless jellyfishes that didn't want to rock the boat, they own that. There is no way to absolve them.
The only factual evidence we have is the final decision is up to Schoen, demonstrated by the Barkley situation. Mara was also fine trading up for a QB if that's what Schoen wanted to do. He just wanted there to be a conviction. He didn't want to move up for a bundle just to throw a dart at a QB to replace DJ.
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
RB isn’t QB, and Mara signed off on a $160M contract for Jones, while Barkley was a free agent. They are not nearly the same scenarios. No one can convince me that Daboll is OK with Jones’s as his QB. So then it is either Schoen or Mara, and I sincerely doubt that Schoen would ignore Daboll if he wanted to make a change.
I don’t think Mara is saying they have to start Jones, I think he is saying, “you guys signed him to this contract, you need to figure it out.” In many ways, that is defensible, but only if you utterly ignore all of the praise Mara has heaped on Jones over the years.
I mean, immediately following the Minny playoff win, Mara shouted “ we’re back”
and more tellingly, “we have our QB!” Does anyone in their right mind really think that Schoen was going to walk into Mara’s office a month later and say, “we’re going to let Daniel walk”? Come on, that is preposterous.
There is plenty to blame Schoen for - Daboll too, but much less so than Schoen, IMO - the size of the contract, the injury guarantee, the guaranteed $$$, but the idea that resigning Jones was all on Schoen is simply ridiculous and doesn’t hold up against the slightest level of scrutiny.
Again - you're pulling stuff out of your butt and trying to advance it as fact.
Yes, QB is more important than RB and the CEO of any business is going to have an opinion on what to do. Mara's looking at it from a different lens considering the myriad of responsibilities (off field) they put on their QB too. But that's all it is - a C Suite opinion.
If Schoen and Daboll didn't want to resign him but were spineless jellyfishes that didn't want to rock the boat, they own that. There is no way to absolve them.
The only factual evidence we have is the final decision is up to Schoen, demonstrated by the Barkley situation. Mara was also fine trading up for a QB if that's what Schoen wanted to do. He just wanted there to be a conviction. He didn't want to move up for a bundle just to throw a dart at a QB to replace DJ.
I’m not going to defend Schoen, as I said, it was his decision to give Jones that money and those guarantees, but if you really think Schoen was going to walk into Mara’s office in January 2023 and tell him they weren’t going to resign Jones, then there is really no point in arguing. It isn’t being spineless either, at that point, there would have been a fan revolt.
Coming off a playoff bid, showing the most promise in almost a decade, and you’re going to let your QB walk? It simply wasn’t going to happen. You may think that’s me pulling stuff out of my butt, but I can assure you, there aren’t that many real-world things up there.
So is it completely out of the realm of possibility that Mara would hold them to that contract, even if he was 1,000% in favor of it? I’m sorry, Brian Daboll does not want Daniel Jones as his starting QB. EVERY bit of evidence points that way. He rarely mentioned Jones in 2022 post-game pressers, it wasn’t until after the contract was signed that he offered unqualified praise for him. Then you have the tablet throwing episode, the HK’s episodes where he basically jumped out of his skin every time Schoen asked him about one of the QB’s in the draft, to the smirk he gave when Schoen answered “yes” to his question about this year’s QB room.
So if Daboll is out on Jones, does anyone really think that Schoen is going to say, no, you’ve got to play him? I certainly don’t. Schoen has known Daboll a long time, and clearly appreciates his knowledge of QB’s. So who’s left? Cue the Jeopardy music…
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
You're treating autonomy as a static level. There's a real possibility that Mara was exerting a different level of pressure to keep the whole band together coming off of 2022 than he was this offseason, on camera, after a terrible year in 2023.
Just because Mara didn't exercise veto authority over Barkley in 2024 doesn't mean that he didn't exert more pressure in the 2023 offseason (particularly if Schoen was able to make the case that bringing everyone back in 2023 against his better judgment, at Mara's behest, contributed to the 2023 dumpster fire). That said, it also doesn't mean that he DID exert that pressure. I'm just of the mind that this past offseason doesn't necessarily tell us how things went down in the 2023 offseason.
RE: There are 16 games to be played so it's a fluid situation
and what he's done in his career. He's truly one of the greatest of all time.
He'll also be 73 next year and as I said yesterday, we need to bring in innovators, not historians. Bill will 73 next season, I fear the game has passed him by. I'd be happy with him as a consultant in a coach or GM search, but his last few years in NE as a GM/HC produced putrid results and an even worse roster.
I'll pass on him as our GM or HC.
This. Sorry but I do not want a 73 year old coach around this franchise.
Ive taken jobs with staff I didnt hire. I knew that it would take 2-3 years to get the churn needed to drive the culture, behavior etc. Its business, but same rules apply.
I knew what I signed up for, i did get pushback on people I wanted to terminate, its frustrating. My choices are work in the system, push real hard on your vision, or just quit.
If I fail, its my fault. Even though there are some staffing remnants that need to go, I signed on.
I dont feel bad for this staff. When you take the job, you sell your vision to leadership. You need to push everyday.
If you give up then just leave because the team will see and feel it.
There's a good old saying about this - Change the people or change the people.
Hypothetically say we wind up with a bottom five record
The most obvious outcome Jones was benched by game 4 and is cut with no injury settlement . Do we let Schoen buy the groceries and Daboll be retained as coach? Say we clean house and search for a new GM and head coach. A 73 year old coach doesn't seem the way to go. So who would be the candidates for GM and head coach ? I don't have a clue. I hope some of you have some thoughts on this matter.
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
You're treating autonomy as a static level. There's a real possibility that Mara was exerting a different level of pressure to keep the whole band together coming off of 2022 than he was this offseason, on camera, after a terrible year in 2023.
Just because Mara didn't exercise veto authority over Barkley in 2024 doesn't mean that he didn't exert more pressure in the 2023 offseason (particularly if Schoen was able to make the case that bringing everyone back in 2023 against his better judgment, at Mara's behest, contributed to the 2023 dumpster fire). That said, it also doesn't mean that he DID exert that pressure. I'm just of the mind that this past offseason doesn't necessarily tell us how things went down in the 2023 offseason.
This is a very important point and one I hadn't considered. It has always struck me as odd that the Giants would agree to HardKnocks behind the scenes in the offseason. Where the GM and Owner are the "stars" of the show, as compared to the players and coaches during training camp. Let's face it, HardKnocks is anathema to everything that the Giants are from a public relations perspective and they have fought tooth and nail to remain off the program for two decades.
So why agree to this format? If anything, this puts the spotlight much more squarely on the front office and is infinitely more intrusive than the training camp version. But what if they wanted to go out of their way to showcase that the GM is in charge and all decisions are made without any interference from ownership? The motive could be noble, communicating to the world that Mara had nothing to do with the DJ contract, or it could be devious, shifting the blame squarely on Schoen for the DJ contract when it was Mara all along.
Who knows, but clearly there is passive aggressive intrigue going on at the palace...
RE: RE: RE: Geez guys, the Mara stuff is getting old.
This is a very important point and one I hadn't considered. It has always struck me as odd that the Giants would agree to HardKnocks behind the scenes in the offseason. Where the GM and Owner are the "stars" of the show, as compared to the players and coaches during training camp. Let's face it, HardKnocks is anathema to everything that the Giants are from a public relations perspective and they have fought tooth and nail to remain off the program for two decades.
So why agree to this format? If anything, this puts the spotlight much more squarely on the front office and is infinitely more intrusive than the training camp version. But what if they wanted to go out of their way to showcase that the GM is in charge and all decisions are made without any interference from ownership? The motive could be noble, communicating to the world that Mara had nothing to do with the DJ contract, or it could be devious, shifting the blame squarely on Schoen for the DJ contract when it was Mara all along.
Who knows, but clearly there is passive aggressive intrigue going on at the palace...
It's a great point about Hard Knocks, and I will admit to taking some solace in the way that Schoen appeared to be running everything. And I think in most cases he was, but there is a very good reason there were no cameras in Mara's office suite. Who knows what was said behind those doors?
And I'm not criticizing Mara for not allowing that kind of access, he absolutely shouldn't, but we should think twice before assuming everything we saw was reflective of everything that was happening.
will go down because he earned it. He has the season unless it gets extremely ugly to make his case. Little that you can look at and say that the Giants looked very strong here (game 1; position group, run D, rushing, etc.). This after emphasizing coming out strong at the open.
Stay with the Mara forced Jones on him nonsense if you like. Pressure? Stand up and make your case. He wanted the WR.
If the Giants win less than 6 games both Daboll and Schoen should be fired. Schoen has to take responsibility for giving Jones, the big contract, with plenty of evidence from college to several prior years with the Giants that he was never going to be more than he showed. Schoen never found a way to trade or draft a QB prospect to move on from Jones. After round 1 and Nabers, he should have found a way to take a chance on a prospect. Even Rattler who went in the 5th round would have at least been an attempt to improve things. He could have probably found a way to sign Wilson who was much better than Jones. Bottom line is results is all that matters in any profession, not excuses or lack of creativity.
Unless Daboll improves in his playcalling, and finds some wins, his famous line of "I will have to see the tape" after every loss will no longer cut it.
So, less than 6 wins they both need to go, as well as Jones. I would entertain BB as a candidate to take things over rather than another year of these clowns.
I recall Eric and a few others heard similar. For a minute, it seemed there was significant mutual interest, but then it was toast and they hired BM.
They tried to get Saban then too:
Quote:
Hours before the Giants named Ben McAdoo as Tom Coughlin’s replacement on Jan. 14, they got a call from college football’s best — and froze.
According to comedian Tom Arnold, a good friend of Giants owner Steve Tisch, the Giants were prepared to reverse course at the last second and hire Alabama coach Nick Saban after he expressed interest in the head coaching job.
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
Why not bring them all back? LT said at the game Sunday that the 50-year-olds on the sideline could've put on a better performance than the current players.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Quote:
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
Mara has repeatedly and publicly expressed his love for Daniel Jones, including at the introductory press conference foe Schoen. Marw is in the building every day, lurking in the halls, in meeting rooms, staffing the personnel department with his blood relatives. There is quote after quote after quote where Mara processes love for Jones in the media.
But I guess behind closed doors he's like "Ha ha, I was just joking. If you want to let him walk that's totally cool with me."?
Quote:
In comment 16606387 M.S. said:
Quote:
But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
All that matters is what the players believe. And you're fooling yourself if you think some of them are not making the exact same assumptions that many here are.
"Why is a guy who is a QB genius playing this guy who we all know isn't very good when his job is in on the line?"
Answer 1 is he can't see what is obvious to all of us, Answer 2 is that it isn't his decision. Neither of those help Daboll.
I know. I know. You will whack me for this....but No one knows offenses like Gruden. No one knows quarterbacking like Gruden. No one works harder/longer than Gruden.
I heard Gruden on NFL radio last week. The guy is itching for another chance and we need a complete change of direction.
I would trust Gruden with our next QB rather than this clown show!
This is not a pro DG comment, but so far this regime has had its best year with a largely DG roster.
There is no chance BB comes here with a GM in place. Especially not a first time GM who hasn't proven anything.
He'll also be 73 next year and as I said yesterday, we need to bring in innovators, not historians. Bill will 73 next season, I fear the game has passed him by. I'd be happy with him as a consultant in a coach or GM search, but his last few years in NE as a GM/HC produced putrid results and an even worse roster.
I'll pass on him as our GM or HC.
And Schoen has not distinguished himself either.
Keep them. Get rid of them. At this point im really apathetic. Wake me up when we field a competitive team
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In comment 16606387 M.S. said:
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But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
Did a discussion happen then?
enough of the Belichick garbage. It's passed him by, just like it did for Shula, Noll and Landry. It happens.
He could lose the locker room by continuing to play Daniel Jones.
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and it wasn't gonna happen then, not so sure it would happen now either.
Did a discussion happen then?
I don't know, there were messages sent back and forth to gauge the situation through intermediaries. It didn't get very far as BB wanted to be GM and HC, etc.
2. The two obviously have a really strong working relationship.
3. There's no situation where you can fire Schoen and keep Daboll.
4. If you do bottom out this year you may as well go for a full clean slate: new GM, new coach, new QB, new scheme. Vrabel and Belichick are both attractive from a Giants' perspective, or they can belatedly go the Shanahan tree path.
5. If you don't bottom out--if they eke out 6 or 7 wins again--it's reasonable to give Schoen and Daboll a shot at their QB.
The key will be "Will Daboll be able to recruit a staff?" If the answer is yes, then you can keep him, but if not, it's time to rip the whole thing down.
I know. I know. You will whack me for this....but No one knows offenses like Gruden. No one knows quarterbacking like Gruden. No one works harder/longer than Gruden.
I heard Gruden on NFL radio last week. The guy is itching for another chance and we need a complete change of direction.
I would trust Gruden with our next QB rather than this clown show!
Bill would make a good Senior VP of Football Ops.
You can fire Daboll without letting Schoen go, but I am not sure what that does unless you believe Schoen has made the correct decisions in the draft and free agency and Daboll has simply failed to get the most out of the good players he has been given.
I understand he's in a tough situation. Trying to change the mindset of an organization stubbornly loyal to the past and optics is difficult.
However, his drafts aren't helping.
Since, Coughlin and Eli in 2006 I have never been a fire everyone type of fan. But the NY Giants have become a literally laughing stock and charity case. I live in South Jersey and Eagles fans I know are literally being sympathetic towards me. "Yea, the Giants are not good" because the Giants arent even a rival anymore they are a joke.
Giants must do something big or risk losing future fans.
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But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
And if I could only get rid of one, Daboll wouldn't be my pick.
This is exactly my fear. Mara will want to do something, but not admit they blew it with both hires.
But I also fear the year end press conference if they are fired where Mara blames them both for ruining Jones' career.
Similar to TC and Reese situation.
I knew what I signed up for, i did get pushback on people I wanted to terminate, its frustrating. My choices are work in the system, push real hard on your vision, or just quit.
If I fail, its my fault. Even though there are some staffing remnants that need to go, I signed on.
I dont feel bad for this staff. When you take the job, you sell your vision to leadership. You need to push everyday.
If you give up then just leave because the team will see and feel it.
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In comment 16606387 M.S. said:
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But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
I have no idea who is dictating that Jones should start, but I simply will not believe it’s Daboll. The guy has been an offensive coach in this league for more than a decade, he knows what he sees in a QB. I also firmly believe he was done with Jones after the tablet throwing incident following Jones’s pick 6 v Seattle.
My guess is that Mara is using the contract as an anvil around both Schoen and Daboll’s necks, basically saying, “you signed him to this contract, you need to straighten him out”. My only question is, when does Daboll get to pull the plug?
Next 2 games are on the road, my fear is that Mara will hold the line until he hears all of the boos raining down in the Dallas game.
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In comment 16606387 M.S. said:
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But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
You are ignoring Mara's public statements concerning DJ. No question about it, Mara's irrational exuberance about DJ influences the type of QB room the Giants have.
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In comment 16606394 MojoEd said:
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In comment 16606387 M.S. said:
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But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
You are ignoring Mara's public statements concerning DJ. No question about it, Mara's irrational exuberance about DJ influences the type of QB room the Giants have.
Agreed... he does not weigh in on all player decisions, but he absolutely does when it comes to the QB or any player who is being used as a marketing tool like Saquon.
John seems to be more concerned about image when it comes to the QB. He wants a boy scout that will not embarrass the franchise.
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In comment 16606394 MojoEd said:
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In comment 16606387 M.S. said:
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But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
You are ignoring Mara's public statements concerning DJ. No question about it, Mara's irrational exuberance about DJ influences the type of QB room the Giants have.
Coupled with his "Barkley deserved better than to be traded" comments, make no mistake, Mara is always influencing personnel decisions. Some more than others.
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
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In comment 16606394 MojoEd said:
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In comment 16606387 M.S. said:
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But my sense is, if Daboll is fired after this season, it will be because he lost his locker room and not because of Daniel Jones.
Even funnier is blaming him for losing the locker room while forcing him to play DJ whom the players know isn’t a legit QB and confirming that Daboll doesn’t have final say on personnel.
Have you got solid evidence that Mara forced Jones on Daboll or are you just operating under the assumption that this is all “common knowledge.”
I have no idea who is dictating that Jones should start, but I simply will not believe it’s Daboll. The guy has been an offensive coach in this league for more than a decade, he knows what he sees in a QB. I also firmly believe he was done with Jones after the tablet throwing incident following Jones’s pick 6 v Seattle.
My guess is that Mara is using the contract as an anvil around both Schoen and Daboll’s necks, basically saying, “you signed him to this contract, you need to straighten him out”. My only question is, when does Daboll get to pull the plug?
Next 2 games are on the road, my fear is that Mara will hold the line until he hears all of the boos raining down in the Dallas game.
This sounds very likley IMO ,....
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
RB isn’t QB, and Mara signed off on a $160M contract for Jones, while Barkley was a free agent. They are not nearly the same scenarios. No one can convince me that Daboll is OK with Jones’s as his QB. So then it is either Schoen or Mara, and I sincerely doubt that Schoen would ignore Daboll if he wanted to make a change.
I don’t think Mara is saying they have to start Jones, I think he is saying, “you guys signed him to this contract, you need to figure it out.” In many ways, that is defensible, but only if you utterly ignore all of the praise Mara has heaped on Jones over the years.
I mean, immediately following the Minny playoff win, Mara shouted “ we’re back”
and more tellingly, “we have our QB!” Does anyone in their right mind really think that Schoen was going to walk into Mara’s office a month later and say, “we’re going to let Daniel walk”? Come on, that is preposterous.
There is plenty to blame Schoen for - Daboll too, but much less so than Schoen, IMO - the size of the contract, the injury guarantee, the guaranteed $$$, but the idea that resigning Jones was all on Schoen is simply ridiculous and doesn’t hold up against the slightest level of scrutiny.
Yes, QB is more important than RB and the CEO of any business is going to have an opinion on what to do. Mara's looking at it from a different lens considering the myriad of responsibilities (off field) they put on their QB too. But that's all it is - a C Suite opinion.
If Schoen and Daboll didn't want to resign him but were spineless jellyfishes that didn't want to rock the boat, they own that. There is no way to absolve them.
The only factual evidence we have is the final decision is up to Schoen, demonstrated by the Barkley situation. Mara was also fine trading up for a QB if that's what Schoen wanted to do. He just wanted there to be a conviction. He didn't want to move up for a bundle just to throw a dart at a QB to replace DJ.
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Mara wanted Barkley back and he's gone.
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
RB isn’t QB, and Mara signed off on a $160M contract for Jones, while Barkley was a free agent. They are not nearly the same scenarios. No one can convince me that Daboll is OK with Jones’s as his QB. So then it is either Schoen or Mara, and I sincerely doubt that Schoen would ignore Daboll if he wanted to make a change.
I don’t think Mara is saying they have to start Jones, I think he is saying, “you guys signed him to this contract, you need to figure it out.” In many ways, that is defensible, but only if you utterly ignore all of the praise Mara has heaped on Jones over the years.
I mean, immediately following the Minny playoff win, Mara shouted “ we’re back”
and more tellingly, “we have our QB!” Does anyone in their right mind really think that Schoen was going to walk into Mara’s office a month later and say, “we’re going to let Daniel walk”? Come on, that is preposterous.
There is plenty to blame Schoen for - Daboll too, but much less so than Schoen, IMO - the size of the contract, the injury guarantee, the guaranteed $$$, but the idea that resigning Jones was all on Schoen is simply ridiculous and doesn’t hold up against the slightest level of scrutiny.
This.
Yes, QB is more important than RB and the CEO of any business is going to have an opinion on what to do. Mara's looking at it from a different lens considering the myriad of responsibilities (off field) they put on their QB too. But that's all it is - a C Suite opinion.
If Schoen and Daboll didn't want to resign him but were spineless jellyfishes that didn't want to rock the boat, they own that. There is no way to absolve them.
The only factual evidence we have is the final decision is up to Schoen, demonstrated by the Barkley situation. Mara was also fine trading up for a QB if that's what Schoen wanted to do. He just wanted there to be a conviction. He didn't want to move up for a bundle just to throw a dart at a QB to replace DJ.
I’m not going to defend Schoen, as I said, it was his decision to give Jones that money and those guarantees, but if you really think Schoen was going to walk into Mara’s office in January 2023 and tell him they weren’t going to resign Jones, then there is really no point in arguing. It isn’t being spineless either, at that point, there would have been a fan revolt.
Coming off a playoff bid, showing the most promise in almost a decade, and you’re going to let your QB walk? It simply wasn’t going to happen. You may think that’s me pulling stuff out of my butt, but I can assure you, there aren’t that many real-world things up there.
So is it completely out of the realm of possibility that Mara would hold them to that contract, even if he was 1,000% in favor of it? I’m sorry, Brian Daboll does not want Daniel Jones as his starting QB. EVERY bit of evidence points that way. He rarely mentioned Jones in 2022 post-game pressers, it wasn’t until after the contract was signed that he offered unqualified praise for him. Then you have the tablet throwing episode, the HK’s episodes where he basically jumped out of his skin every time Schoen asked him about one of the QB’s in the draft, to the smirk he gave when Schoen answered “yes” to his question about this year’s QB room.
So if Daboll is out on Jones, does anyone really think that Schoen is going to say, no, you’ve got to play him? I certainly don’t. Schoen has known Daboll a long time, and clearly appreciates his knowledge of QB’s. So who’s left? Cue the Jeopardy music…
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
You're treating autonomy as a static level. There's a real possibility that Mara was exerting a different level of pressure to keep the whole band together coming off of 2022 than he was this offseason, on camera, after a terrible year in 2023.
Just because Mara didn't exercise veto authority over Barkley in 2024 doesn't mean that he didn't exert more pressure in the 2023 offseason (particularly if Schoen was able to make the case that bringing everyone back in 2023 against his better judgment, at Mara's behest, contributed to the 2023 dumpster fire). That said, it also doesn't mean that he DID exert that pressure. I'm just of the mind that this past offseason doesn't necessarily tell us how things went down in the 2023 offseason.
Somebody has to be the fall guy.
He'll also be 73 next year and as I said yesterday, we need to bring in innovators, not historians. Bill will 73 next season, I fear the game has passed him by. I'd be happy with him as a consultant in a coach or GM search, but his last few years in NE as a GM/HC produced putrid results and an even worse roster.
I'll pass on him as our GM or HC.
This. Sorry but I do not want a 73 year old coach around this franchise.
I knew what I signed up for, i did get pushback on people I wanted to terminate, its frustrating. My choices are work in the system, push real hard on your vision, or just quit.
If I fail, its my fault. Even though there are some staffing remnants that need to go, I signed on.
I dont feel bad for this staff. When you take the job, you sell your vision to leadership. You need to push everyday.
If you give up then just leave because the team will see and feel it.
There's a good old saying about this - Change the people or change the people.
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Mara wanted Barkley back and he's gone.
Mara likes Daniel Jones and was convinced he could play with better supporting cast, which appears to be incorrect so far.
He's the CEO - he's going to have an opinion. What we know AS FACT is Schoen & Daboll (package deal tied at the hip) went against his wishes and Barkley's gone.
READ: THEY ARE MAKING THEIR OWN DECISIONS
This is the real world. They are responsible for the decisions they've made. Regardless of DJ, Daboll was bent over a barrel by Flores. They were expecting a blitzkreig and instead Flores dropped into a cover 2 to combat the deep ball. Daboll never adjusted. He hitched his wagon to this QB AND he got outcoached and he's responsible for it all. That's how it works.
You're treating autonomy as a static level. There's a real possibility that Mara was exerting a different level of pressure to keep the whole band together coming off of 2022 than he was this offseason, on camera, after a terrible year in 2023.
Just because Mara didn't exercise veto authority over Barkley in 2024 doesn't mean that he didn't exert more pressure in the 2023 offseason (particularly if Schoen was able to make the case that bringing everyone back in 2023 against his better judgment, at Mara's behest, contributed to the 2023 dumpster fire). That said, it also doesn't mean that he DID exert that pressure. I'm just of the mind that this past offseason doesn't necessarily tell us how things went down in the 2023 offseason.
This is a very important point and one I hadn't considered. It has always struck me as odd that the Giants would agree to HardKnocks behind the scenes in the offseason. Where the GM and Owner are the "stars" of the show, as compared to the players and coaches during training camp. Let's face it, HardKnocks is anathema to everything that the Giants are from a public relations perspective and they have fought tooth and nail to remain off the program for two decades.
So why agree to this format? If anything, this puts the spotlight much more squarely on the front office and is infinitely more intrusive than the training camp version. But what if they wanted to go out of their way to showcase that the GM is in charge and all decisions are made without any interference from ownership? The motive could be noble, communicating to the world that Mara had nothing to do with the DJ contract, or it could be devious, shifting the blame squarely on Schoen for the DJ contract when it was Mara all along.
Who knows, but clearly there is passive aggressive intrigue going on at the palace...
This is a very important point and one I hadn't considered. It has always struck me as odd that the Giants would agree to HardKnocks behind the scenes in the offseason. Where the GM and Owner are the "stars" of the show, as compared to the players and coaches during training camp. Let's face it, HardKnocks is anathema to everything that the Giants are from a public relations perspective and they have fought tooth and nail to remain off the program for two decades.
So why agree to this format? If anything, this puts the spotlight much more squarely on the front office and is infinitely more intrusive than the training camp version. But what if they wanted to go out of their way to showcase that the GM is in charge and all decisions are made without any interference from ownership? The motive could be noble, communicating to the world that Mara had nothing to do with the DJ contract, or it could be devious, shifting the blame squarely on Schoen for the DJ contract when it was Mara all along.
Who knows, but clearly there is passive aggressive intrigue going on at the palace...
It's a great point about Hard Knocks, and I will admit to taking some solace in the way that Schoen appeared to be running everything. And I think in most cases he was, but there is a very good reason there were no cameras in Mara's office suite. Who knows what was said behind those doors?
And I'm not criticizing Mara for not allowing that kind of access, he absolutely shouldn't, but we should think twice before assuming everything we saw was reflective of everything that was happening.
Stay with the Mara forced Jones on him nonsense if you like. Pressure? Stand up and make your case. He wanted the WR.
Unless Daboll improves in his playcalling, and finds some wins, his famous line of "I will have to see the tape" after every loss will no longer cut it.
So, less than 6 wins they both need to go, as well as Jones. I would entertain BB as a candidate to take things over rather than another year of these clowns.
Totally agree.
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and it wasn't gonna happen then, not so sure it would happen now either.
Did a discussion happen then?
Yeah, was I in a coma when this went down?
Anyone still want to argue that Mara wants to win more than anyone?
They tried to get Saban then too:
According to comedian Tom Arnold, a good friend of Giants owner Steve Tisch, the Giants were prepared to reverse course at the last second and hire Alabama coach Nick Saban after he expressed interest in the head coaching job.
NYP: How the Giants were Hours Away from Hiring Nick Saban - ( New Window )