Pat Leonard just visited a fan Twitter space and spilled some interesting nuggets. Here are a few of them:
-Schoen and Daboll got overconfident after 2022 and were convinced of their own brilliance, which knocked them off the rebuilding path. They own running it back in 2023, and Daboll was even talking Superbowl behind closed doors before the 23' season.
-Along these lines, No Mara conspiracy regarding the Jones contract. While Mara was very much on board, Schoen was trying hard to get that contract done to run it back.
-Daboll is definitely on the hot seat but Schoen isn't that far behind. A 4 or 5-win season would put a full house-cleaning in play.
-Regarding the 2023 draft: the Giants were absolutely doing extra work scouting QBs and that was assuredly not something they do every year. They liked both Daniels and Maye, but Daniels was their first choice.
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Not that there isn't some probable truth to it. But knocked them off the rebuild track? Really? Vague enough to drive a truck through that.
Really. Give some specific examples of what they did or didn’t do that would back that up.
It was only a good season compared to the dreck before it. That was not a team ready to compete and anyone who saw something different was deluding themselves. I hope our coach and GM were not in that crowd to the extent Leonard implies they were.
Yes, and 1 month earlier than normal
I never heard he phrase “overconfident” used but opinions of Leonard aside, this aligns with what i’ve heard - which is Schoen owns the Jones contract.
I don’t blame anyone for wanting to point the finger at Mara but I don’t believe he’s meddled in big decisions with this regime.
The Giants brass believed they were building towards something. Good for them, they had confidence in themselves and the pieces they put in place.
They were just wrong. That happens. So now the question becomes what do they now that things are hard and their initial instincts were incorrect.
That's what separates the good from the bad.
^^^
pat's a little late to the party.
Daboll was warned.
ESPN Article - ( New Window )
I like a beat reporter to be tough and even stir the pot when the franchise has been a dumpster fire for a decade. I much prefer that to Paul Schwartz.
After all, while other GMs had more important shit to do, our GM was busy listening to his own hand-picked head coach and buddy's gameday operation via the headsets because there had been complaints made about him.
Daboll and Schoen have literally done nothing good since the clock struck 0.00 in Minnesota in January of 2023.
Memo to whomever replaces them: managing up is all important as managing down.
Memo to whomever replaces them: managing up is all important as managing down.
Yes, but let's give Mara a little break here, no? From what I can tell, and what we've heard and seen, Mara seems to have done what we all wanted here when Schoen was brought in.
If Jones was truly a Schoen decision and with Barkley being in Philly for big money, I have no gripe with JM.
they have talked more about it this year but last year especially they really abandoned "smart, tough, dependable" in favor of some sugar highs that just wore off way too quickly.
parris campbell over julian love is the one the most burns me with the benefit of hindsight. i was excited about adding campbell because of his prior draft pedigree and my initial take was being frustrated by slayton > love but man oh man was campbell very clearly not even close to as good of a football player as even slayton right away.
Memo to whomever replaces them: managing up is all important as managing down.
Yep. I'm getting tired of the Mara excuse. Part of the job here is to navigate the ownership dynamic. It's tough, but if Schoen can't do it he's not right for the job.
It will be up to Mara to hire someone who's got a legitimate, proven NFL resume. If he doesn't, expect more of the same.
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They've got only themselves to blame; every major strategic move has been the wrong one.
Memo to whomever replaces them: managing up is all important as managing down.
Yes, but let's give Mara a little break here, no? From what I can tell, and what we've heard and seen, Mara seems to have done what we all wanted here when Schoen was brought in.
If Jones was truly a Schoen decision and with Barkley being in Philly for big money, I have no gripe with JM.
yes but people trick themselves into believing they want things different than what they really want - which is just to win. everyone pretends there are obvious paths to that but there arent. "alignment" was the buzzword 3 years ago, but if everyone is aligned on a shitty move like waller is that really a good thing?
the only obvious path is hiring proven people but that's not always possible - but fortunately should this group fail it will be and id go so far as to say the next regime MUST be led by a proven winner with a career .500+ record. Belichick and Vrabel being the 2 obvious candidates.
The Giants brass believed they were building towards something. Good for them, they had confidence in themselves and the pieces they put in place.
They were just wrong. That happens. So now the question becomes what do they now that things are hard and their initial instincts were incorrect.
That's what separates the good from the bad.
You nailed it.
2022 was supposed to be a total rebuild year. But when they made it to the playoffs and won a game, they had confidence in themselves they they could turn it around quickly. They all gave egos and confidence in themselves. Why wouldn’t they? It’s like in relationships when you think you can fix the person that no one else can. Lol. They were just wrong. If they lost in 2022 the entire team would’ve been gutted and started over. The worst thing that could have happened was winning that year as messed up as that sounds.
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They've got only themselves to blame; every major strategic move has been the wrong one.
Memo to whomever replaces them: managing up is all important as managing down.
Yep. I'm getting tired of the Mara excuse. Part of the job here is to navigate the ownership dynamic. It's tough, but if Schoen can't do it he's not right for the job.
It will be up to Mara to hire someone who's got a legitimate, proven NFL resume. If he doesn't, expect more of the same.
it is part of the job anywhere. any sport. any profession.
complaining about managing up with mara should be akin to complaining about years coming off his life in a negotiation with a star player. just loser mentality all the way through.
if you are an executive with a contract and someone tries to big foot you, you hold your ground and make them overrule/fire you. it is not insubordinate to try to do the right thing, especially if going along with the wrong thing also threatens your career. Brian Flores did it in Miami with Ross, and had he not filed a lawsuit he'd possibly be coaching CJ Stroud right now not Demeco Ryans. And he'd have probably gotten himself a raise in Houston too.
they have talked more about it this year but last year especially they really abandoned "smart, tough, dependable" in favor of some sugar highs that just wore off way too quickly.
parris campbell over julian love is the one the most burns me with the benefit of hindsight. i was excited about adding campbell because of his prior draft pedigree and my initial take was being frustrated by slayton > love but man oh man was campbell very clearly not even close to as good of a football player as even slayton right away.
So many moves, both big and small, that were head-scratchers. It's why I don't really care if Schoen is fired, he's done enough to warrant it. I just hope there are MAJOR changes along with it, like the Tisches forcing the Mara's to get out of the operations side of the business.
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They've got only themselves to blame; every major strategic move has been the wrong one.
Memo to whomever replaces them: managing up is all important as managing down.
Yep. I'm getting tired of the Mara excuse. Part of the job here is to navigate the ownership dynamic. It's tough, but if Schoen can't do it he's not right for the job.
It will be up to Mara to hire someone who's got a legitimate, proven NFL resume. If he doesn't, expect more of the same.
I think the problem is that there may not be someone who is right for this particular job given the dynamic in the building - and if there is, are the Giants willing to hire that person?
We've discussed this many times before, but the only reason George Young and subsequently Ernie Accorsi had the kind of authority they had over the football operation was that Pete Rozelle scolded the Mara family for being embarrassing assholes.
Everything the Giants accomplished between 1980 and 2011 can be traced back to those events.
Whether people choose to accept it or not, "we're back!" is meddling; "we've got our quarterback" is meddling; "we've done everything possible to screw up Daniel" is meddling.
When the CEO offers his opinion to the general public, it complicates the way in which his subordinates might otherwise do something that contradicts that opinion.
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trading for an injury prone/expensive/aging waller was a clear going for it move.
they have talked more about it this year but last year especially they really abandoned "smart, tough, dependable" in favor of some sugar highs that just wore off way too quickly.
parris campbell over julian love is the one the most burns me with the benefit of hindsight. i was excited about adding campbell because of his prior draft pedigree and my initial take was being frustrated by slayton > love but man oh man was campbell very clearly not even close to as good of a football player as even slayton right away.
So many moves, both big and small, that were head-scratchers. It's why I don't really care if Schoen is fired, he's done enough to warrant it. I just hope there are MAJOR changes along with it, like the Tisches forcing the Mara's to get out of the operations side of the business.
i only want 1 major change. give belichick the keys and get out of his way. im sick of rookies. the guy has a .647 winning% and he's motivated.
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In comment 16606710 Go Terps said:
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They've got only themselves to blame; every major strategic move has been the wrong one.
Memo to whomever replaces them: managing up is all important as managing down.
Yep. I'm getting tired of the Mara excuse. Part of the job here is to navigate the ownership dynamic. It's tough, but if Schoen can't do it he's not right for the job.
It will be up to Mara to hire someone who's got a legitimate, proven NFL resume. If he doesn't, expect more of the same.
I think the problem is that there may not be someone who is right for this particular job given the dynamic in the building - and if there is, are the Giants willing to hire that person?
We've discussed this many times before, but the only reason George Young and subsequently Ernie Accorsi had the kind of authority they had over the football operation was that Pete Rozelle scolded the Mara family for being embarrassing assholes.
Everything the Giants accomplished between 1980 and 2011 can be traced back to those events.
True. The Giants won DESPITE having the Maras as owners, not because of them. If the Maras weren't forced to hire actual football people to run the operation, we'd likely be going on decades as laughingstocks of the NFL.
True. The Giants won DESPITE having the Maras as owners, not because of them. If the Maras weren't forced to hire actual football people to run the operation, we'd likely be going on decades as laughingstocks of the NFL.
If you want to have a look at what Giants history would be like if not for Rozelle stepping in, take a look at the Detroit Lions franchise page on Football Reference from 1965 onward.
Like the Giants, they were a powerhouse in the 1950s, and their last championship was one year after the Giants won their last title of the pre-Super Bowl era.
And are we supposed to forget Mara’s public comments after the Vikings game about how proud he was of Daniel, and how the Giants are back! Imagine what he said to the front office staff in private.
Based on what you know, and maybe you mentioned it and I don't recall the specifics, was the decision to re-invest in Jones equally Schoen and Daboll? Or was one more the catalyst than the other?
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and you are eating it up.
Not that there isn't some probable truth to it. But knocked them off the rebuild track? Really? Vague enough to drive a truck through that.
Hey, didn't say I endorsed it, though I think Schoen does not get a pass at all for the Jones contract no matter how annoying Mara is/was, nor should he get one for arranging a garbage QB room in 2024. If they had even just lied to Russell Wilson and told him he would have a great chance to start (which is basically what the Steelers did), both Schoen and Daboll would have a credible escape route right now: maybe Wilson performs well and saves them, and if he didn't, they could just say "hey we brought in a Superbowl winner to back-up Daniel, not much more we can do."
If you post Pat Leonard shit, you own it. Guy is a shit stirrer. As others have said, ended the season 3-5-1 and got destroyed by Philly. They had no WRs and a basically weak OL and no CBs on defense.
Where did they stop the re-build?
Guy is an a$$hole
The reason Gettleman got a 4th year was because there was a sense of hope around how NYG finished 2020. Beating Dallas in the finale. Going 4-2 in the division. Going 5-3 after starting 1-7. A strong offseason in 2020.
Schoen won't get a 4th year if Mara doesn't feel the team is on the right path.
We look at the roster now and think, Schoen can't draft guys. But Daboll hasn't exactly developed anyone. Imagine if a real OL coach could have had 2 years with Evan Neal.
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This is exactly what I've heard and posted here.
Based on what you know, and maybe you mentioned it and I don't recall the specifics, was the decision to re-invest in Jones equally Schoen and Daboll? Or was one more the catalyst than the other?
I did mention it on one of these current threads somewhere. I was told in no uncertain terms that the Daniel Jones signing was Schoen getting his QB. I have to assume that Daboll was completely on board with it but I don't know that for certain.
Not that there isn't some probable truth to it. But knocked them off the rebuild track? Really? Vague enough to drive a truck through that.
Shhh, my bias is being confirmed by the crank.
This...especially will how much interest and time they spent on Penix/ JJM.
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In comment 16606811 Woodstock said:
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This is exactly what I've heard and posted here.
Based on what you know, and maybe you mentioned it and I don't recall the specifics, was the decision to re-invest in Jones equally Schoen and Daboll? Or was one more the catalyst than the other?
I did mention it on one of these current threads somewhere. I was told in no uncertain terms that the Daniel Jones signing was Schoen getting his QB. I have to assume that Daboll was completely on board with it but I don't know that for certain.
This is beyond nauseating...
I think they wanted to re-sign one or the other when it came to Jones and Barkley and franchise the one they couldnt sign, Schoen has admitted this and when they knew they werent going to sign Barkley they turned to Jones..
I dont get how thata over confident
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In comment 16606811 Woodstock said:
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This is exactly what I've heard and posted here.
Based on what you know, and maybe you mentioned it and I don't recall the specifics, was the decision to re-invest in Jones equally Schoen and Daboll? Or was one more the catalyst than the other?
I did mention it on one of these current threads somewhere. I was told in no uncertain terms that the Daniel Jones signing was Schoen getting his QB. I have to assume that Daboll was completely on board with it but I don't know that for certain.
Daboll doesn't seem completely on board with jones.
If you ever watched him in Buffalo they were like father and son, and they would commonly spend time around each other off the field.
Daboll certainly isn't warm and fuzzy with Jones from what I've seen. That seems like a strictly co-worker relationship.
The reason Gettleman got a 4th year was because there was a sense of hope around how NYG finished 2020. Beating Dallas in the finale. Going 4-2 in the division. Going 5-3 after starting 1-7. A strong offseason in 2020.
Schoen won't get a 4th year if Mara doesn't feel the team is on the right path.
agreed. and we all saw how quickly that hope vanished in 2021. remember at the end of 2021 we werent even sure if judge would get canned. ive made the comparison between the minnesota game and that opener vs denver/shurmur/bridgewater a few times. both were equally demoralizing and inexplicable. in similar ways i think both really changed the entire gravity around the organizational direction.
in 2021 judge actually had a good bounce back effort on TNF vs washington (the lawrence neutral zone loss 30-29). this week vs washington is yet another mile marker to see if daboll can in the slightest of ways show progress over the judge era. if he cant he wont survive long. week 3 that year was the atlanta loss on a long fg after adoree dropped a would be int in the end zone. 0-3 was game over.
@ cleveland and vs dallas on TNF weeks 3/4 things are about to play things out really quickly.
Well I believe there was another purpose to it. I believe it was his “slush fund” to create more cap space when needed by design by “restructuring “ that money when needed
And Schoen already tapped into that resource before the ink was done drying on it.
Sept 4, 2023 - ESPN
“ The Giants created $6.315 million in cap space by converting $8.42 million of Jones's salary into a signing bonus. Jones' cap figures increased by $2.105 million in each of the 2024, 2025, and 2026 seasons as a result. ”
Well I believe there was another purpose to it. I believe it was his “slush fund” to create more cap space when needed by design by “restructuring “ that money when needed
And Schoen already tapped into that resource before the ink was done drying on it.
Sept 4, 2023 - ESPN
“ The Giants created $6.315 million in cap space by converting $8.42 million of Jones's salary into a signing bonus. Jones' cap figures increased by $2.105 million in each of the 2024, 2025, and 2026 seasons as a result. ”
The escape hatch has nothing to do with the cap flexibility/manipulation. What you're describing is simply a function of having salary that can be converted to bonus; it has nothing to do with the way the contract is structured to allow for outs after Y2 and Y3.
In fact, it's effectively the opposite of what you're suggesting: the potential need to yank the ripcord on DJ's contract after this season has created a situation where JS is now reluctant to touch DJ's salary this year, when doing so would have given the Giants plenty of additional space/flexibility this year.
Well I believe there was another purpose to it. I believe it was his “slush fund” to create more cap space when needed by design by “restructuring “ that money when needed
And Schoen already tapped into that resource before the ink was done drying on it.
Sept 4, 2023 - ESPN
“ The Giants created $6.315 million in cap space by converting $8.42 million of Jones's salary into a signing bonus. Jones' cap figures increased by $2.105 million in each of the 2024, 2025, and 2026 seasons as a result. ”
Well I believe there was another purpose to it. I believe it was his “slush fund” to create more cap space when needed by design by “restructuring “ that money when needed
And Schoen already tapped into that resource before the ink was done drying on it.
Sept 4, 2023 - ESPN
“ The Giants created $6.315 million in cap space by converting $8.42 million of Jones's salary into a signing bonus. Jones' cap figures increased by $2.105 million in each of the 2024, 2025, and 2026 seasons as a result. ”
i think this is correct. they planned to restructure him and punt money the future and only didnt because everything imploded.
Based on what you know, and maybe you mentioned it and I don't recall the specifics, was the decision to re-invest in Jones equally Schoen and Daboll? Or was one more the catalyst than the other?
I did mention it on one of these current threads somewhere. I was told in no uncertain terms that the Daniel Jones signing was Schoen getting his QB. I have to assume that Daboll was completely on board with it but I don't know that for certain.
Thanks, Woodstock.
I can see Schoen explaining the situation to Daboll - contract parameters, free agency options, draft options, etc - and selling him on why Jones makes the most sense based on all those variables.
Daboll was hired by Schoen, he trusts him, he reports to him, and so he co-signs.
And onto the next season...