I know how much he loves the Giants organzation, but he will no doubt want alot of power and I just dont see the Giants willing to give one person that much authority over the operation
Thank you for the forensics on a conversation I literally just participated in Receipts on Li.
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
They were outlining the head coaching hires since Coughlin. Man, it's depressing.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
I don't apologize for understanding the critical importance of LoS play nor have I missed the Giants struggles at the LoS. Foundation of football. Post plenty about other topics.
You called it dumb and didn't tell me not to post about it. Good job. However it's 30 not 36. You should know this with the couple hundred posts to me about it. I also went into much more than 30. Have fun continuing with that if you choose.
If only the Patriots had rushed for 30 yards per game the last two years, Belichick would be a candidate for the Giants job. But unfortunately no dice.
Story teller Christian. Time to build another malfunctioning clock or system. At least BB stories have merit but then again he doesn't need to tell them.
Thank you for the forensics on a conversation I literally just participated in Receipts on Li.
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
what i understand is that you played christian the contrarian as usual, made the 'time machine' comment which both mike and myself objected to based on football since this is a football message board, then as has been your habit the last several months a pedantic football discussion, in this case statistics about the detroit lions offensive line, triggers you into name calling and projection.
i'd say you should keep workshopping better nicknames for me because you havent quite hit the mark but im not sure how healthy it is for you to spend any more time thinking about me or my posts.
They were outlining the head coaching hires since Coughlin. Man, it's depressing.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
i thought shurmur deserved a chance too, and unlike mcadoo he'd been a HC before so there was some hope he fit the arians prototype at that time which was an overlooked experienced assistant because personality wise he didnt fit into the right mold.
as it turned out he had the maturity of a 2nd grader. each of these failed HC's has had a breaking moment and i think his was when he publicly threw Lauletta under the bus. the only what if i have with him was if he'd have gotten Fangio as DC since bettcher was just so, so bad. if 2018 goes better maybe the OBJ trade never happens and then maybe you have a good defense plus an offense that has Engram, OBJ, Barkley. but more than likely it makes no difference. leadership is destiny and he was a shitty leader.
daboll hasnt had his signature public breaking point yet and obviously the future is unwritten so who knows but he is on the doorstep. if this week goes poorly and with CLE then what could into a DAL home game in NY on TNG next up the movie feels all too familiar. with the benefit of hindsight his friction with mcdermott doesnt reflect very well given mcdermott has been able to fire his protege, move on, and keep that train moving.
I made an isolated observation that I didn't believe the the Lions line is a good model for the Giants -- given the age, milage, and timeframe it took to be where they are today.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
I made an isolated observation that I didn't believe the the Lions line is a good model for the Giants -- given the age, milage, and timeframe it took to be where they are today.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
act offended at something banal challenge accepted apparently.
i deeply apologize for accusing you of accusing me of basing an argument on the narrowed criteria of OL play absent everything else discussed itt. feel better or still big mad?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?
My brain is overloaded these days with new job and son in school dual chaos, but I believe the whispers started in December before they canned TC. Eric, a few asshats, and a few I know off BBI all heard some semblance of it. YMMV.
It doesn't mean it's a lock to not happen now, but it would be a huge reversal from NYG ownership. Either way, moving on.
i dont doubt the whispers or the inquiries on the giants end, im just putting myself in BB shoes and assessing that given the context of his situation at the time, the odds of him being remotely interested in dec 2015 had to be less than .0000001% and the odds of kraft letting him out of whatever his contract was even lower.
he was running a 12 win team led by brady that was firmly in the middle of a dynasty. and he stayed there almost another decade, 4 years past brady, so he didnt seem to be in any rush to move on.
Belichick has a new show on YouTube with Mike Lombardi
I know - Mike Lombardi is a blowhard who hates the Giants (even though he's been dead on accurate about them).
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
RE: RE: I just don't get what scenario people are envisioning
with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
This makes perfect sense but sometimes people make weird decisions, like Jason Garrett agreeing to be OC here.
I know - Mike Lombardi is a blowhard who hates the Giants (even though he's been dead on accurate about them).
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
Lombardi is full of shit. Don't try to sugarcoat a whiny, bitter SOB.
A young 72/73? That's a ringing endorsement. He is a freaking minefield. He could not win without Brady and chased his biggest asset off by refusing to get him WRs that could catch the football, even after Brady took pay cuts to give the Patriots the money to sign better players.
No doubt Bill know football. But he is a disaster at GM.
I’m not sure there is a solution. Daboll looked like he didn’t care last week. That’s VERY bad. I can’t imagine any 3rd year head coach in his position being anything but full tilt win now and damn the torpedos.
I get the allure, but Belichick would be the epitome of existing.
My concern is bringing someone in like Ben Johnson who might as well be Daboll in 2022. Offensive mind to *gasp* fix Daniel Jones year 7 or bring him in to find the next QB.
I liked their thinking with the Judge hire, he just was not qualified.
Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
First two teams were Dallas and Green Bay. Both were 13-3 teams. One QB in the HOF and the other was a really good one.
The Green Bay the D actually was not so bad. It got away towards the end. Much more talented D team though.
Yep, 2007, Thanks. The Giants defense gave up 80 points the 1st three games, IIRC. They were dreadful. And then they got better. Point is still the same, took most of three games for THAT defense to get up to speed.
Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
That is my opinion, also. However, the defense should still be able to be successful or should I say solid without the QB.
He can go. If it's him or Belichick in 2025, that's no contest.
I definitely do not want a first time guy like Ben Johnson. We'll be replacing him in three years. How a head coach for the team, not the QB.
if daboll fails they cannot do a first timer again. ironically i think that was mara's instinct last time and why he was hot for flores until schoen chose daboll.
Over the past 2 years and won 9 and 6 games. Daboll had all the appropriate qualifications for an HC job. This year we have 6-7 win talent - if everything falls apart, he'll likely be gone. And it will be another carcass processed through the Mara/Jones meat grinder.
I'm not saying he's an elite coach and we need to keep him under any circumstances. But I also don't think he warrants the "he's a bum, he's only in the league because of Josh Allen, bad hire" type of stuff that is inevitably coming his way.
He can go. If it's him or Belichick in 2025, that's no contest.
Okay, I'll bite. Why does Daboll stink?
Expecting him to make more chicken salad out of Jones for more than one year was the stretch of stretches.
Look, I don't want to limit this to just the offense and QB. But he's totally handcuffed by a dying QB and a GM who seems way over his head right now.
Remember, he steered the ship in 2022 with mostly Gettleman's leftovers. Just think about that...
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
You’re right to focus on what Daboll can do to save his job.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
You’re right to focus on what Daboll can do to save his job.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
there seemed to be less intensity in general.
i think that's more broadly 1 of the concerns with a head coach being both OC and HC. in a way he is his own boss, and focusing on half of the team in a very specific/tangible way (play calling) possibly at the expense of putting energy into the full team. especially since they also had a new DC in his first game.
with the 22/23 staff setups i think we would have seen daboll pacing the sidelines with more emotion.
that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
You’re right to focus on what Daboll can do to save his job.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
It appears to me to be a sense of resignation in coming to terms with the reality that there is nothing that can be done with this team with DJ as its quarterback. The thesis that fixing the OL, getting weapons, committing to positional value, improving the defense, trusting the process, etc etc, only works if you have a competent NFL quarterback. DJ is who he always has been. Nothing has changed. He and Schoen made a massive bet and it has failed. They have sown the wind and shall now reap the whirlwind...
that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
im gonna push back on this a little bit. they came back against arizona last year, they actually hung in against SF on that TNF game without barkley better than they did this past week at home vs darnold. When Barkley came back they almost beat BUF. then they rallied late season with him and beat gb/phi, almost beat lar too.
i dont think anyone quit on daboll through 2 years and that is probably the biggest reason he got to year 3.
terps made a good point about hard knocks yesterday and how even when it came to supporting jones they were so feeble and lacking conviction. add to that how they misjudged the market for what was clearly their best player the last 2 years. its possible that we are seeing the quitting conditions hit a perfect storm right now in real time as jones implodes, barkley wins player of the week, and the defense regresses. either daboll leads them out of this with answers or he's done.
Fair enough. I still think the Arizona game was more about Jonathan Gannon going into a prevent and letting DJ become a seven on seven quarterback. And we were never in the SF game. But we can both agree that from that moment of the pick six against Seattle, the locker room had given up completely on DJ.
The latter season games you mention were with Tyrod and DeVito when I would argue that the locker room got back to believing in Daboll and his magic. As I said, Daboll's only chance now is to somehow get Lock or DeVito in there and possibly recreate the energy of those late season games.
And agree completely with Terps about Hard Knocks. When Daboll said "so I guess were running it back with DJ?", he looked like Captain Smith on the Titanic saying "so I guess it's women and children first on the lifeboats?"
Breida's td run made the SF game 12-17 in the 3rd Q
and entering the 4th it was 20-12. i agree functionally it was a less competitive game than that.
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
Well, per Hard Knocks, Daboll was into trading up for Daniels and Maye. In fact, he sounded very resolute about getting Daniels.
But, alas, his boss couldn't figure that trade part out. If you want to say he was complicit in that failure, fine.
Once Schoen failed, what did we expect Daboll to say going forward? He has to deal with the card dealt and move on.
I would bet if you hooked Daboll to a polygraph, he would come clean on his feeling for Jones - he's not what I want to make this work...
RE: Breida's td run made the SF game 12-17 in the 3rd Q
and entering the 4th it was 20-12. i agree functionally it was a less competitive game than that.
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
No argument here - Sunday was right up there with the very worst of McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge.
if you offer him total control tomorrow, that's something dallas probably wouldnt even do if/when they fire mccarthy. is he passing on that?
Pipedream...There is NFW I see Mara ever giving BB the set up and structure we had in New England.
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
RE: RE: RE: so who wants to make the call to belichick?
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
Now, that is right my alley. Let the HC, ala Shanahan in San Fran, handpick his GM.
That is the correct reporting structure in my view. GM reports to HC and HC reports to the Owner(s).
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
You called it dumb and didn't tell me not to post about it. Good job. However it's 30 not 36. You should know this with the couple hundred posts to me about it. I also went into much more than 30. Have fun continuing with that if you choose.
It appears that in point-of-fact you were able to read along, and you did understand Mike and I were talking about one isolated aspect of Campbell's team building.
This might blow your mind, but from time-to-time people will participate in tangential conversations, that don't tie to your tedious and repetitive drivel.
I kind of like Receipts on Li, but I'm also inclined to introduce Eric the Splash Play Machine.
what i understand is that you played christian the contrarian as usual, made the 'time machine' comment which both mike and myself objected to based on football since this is a football message board, then as has been your habit the last several months a pedantic football discussion, in this case statistics about the detroit lions offensive line, triggers you into name calling and projection.
i'd say you should keep workshopping better nicknames for me because you havent quite hit the mark but im not sure how healthy it is for you to spend any more time thinking about me or my posts.
Quote:
They were outlining the head coaching hires since Coughlin. Man, it's depressing.
Ben McAdoo
Pat Shurmur
Joe Judge
Simmons called it the trifecta. None of them had any business being a head coach. Shurmur and Judge both in college now. Daboll probably gets fired next.
This is the NY Giants. Think about how bad these recent hires are.
Shurmur had every right to be a NFL HC. He earned his chance as one of the best OCs in football. Lombardi is a total a$$hole.
Sometimes it does not work out, Wade Phillips was easily one of the best DCs in the NFL in the last 30 years. He earned his chance as HC. It did not work out. There are numerous OCs and DCs that were top 5 at there job that earned the right to be HC and it did not work out.
i thought shurmur deserved a chance too, and unlike mcadoo he'd been a HC before so there was some hope he fit the arians prototype at that time which was an overlooked experienced assistant because personality wise he didnt fit into the right mold.
as it turned out he had the maturity of a 2nd grader. each of these failed HC's has had a breaking moment and i think his was when he publicly threw Lauletta under the bus. the only what if i have with him was if he'd have gotten Fangio as DC since bettcher was just so, so bad. if 2018 goes better maybe the OBJ trade never happens and then maybe you have a good defense plus an offense that has Engram, OBJ, Barkley. but more than likely it makes no difference. leadership is destiny and he was a shitty leader.
daboll hasnt had his signature public breaking point yet and obviously the future is unwritten so who knows but he is on the doorstep. if this week goes poorly and with CLE then what could into a DAL home game in NY on TNG next up the movie feels all too familiar. with the benefit of hindsight his friction with mcdermott doesnt reflect very well given mcdermott has been able to fire his protege, move on, and keep that train moving.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
And that under Daboll, the Giants have spent plenty of resources on the offensive, which is finally showing signs of improvement.
That you found that to be evidence I was accusing you of wanting regime change solely because of the offense line was so out of left field, you 100% deserved to be called a dipshit.
act offended at something banal challenge accepted apparently.
i deeply apologize for accusing you of accusing me of basing an argument on the narrowed criteria of OL play absent everything else discussed itt. feel better or still big mad?
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In comment 16607384 Eric on Li said:
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In comment 16607379 JonC said:
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In comment 16607374 Eric on Li said:
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nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?
My brain is overloaded these days with new job and son in school dual chaos, but I believe the whispers started in December before they canned TC. Eric, a few asshats, and a few I know off BBI all heard some semblance of it. YMMV.
It doesn't mean it's a lock to not happen now, but it would be a huge reversal from NYG ownership. Either way, moving on.
he was running a 12 win team led by brady that was firmly in the middle of a dynasty. and he stayed there almost another decade, 4 years past brady, so he didnt seem to be in any rush to move on.
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
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with Belichick. Do you think he's going to coach for 5 years?
At his age, I see something like 2 years. Maybe he does a good job coaching and we are a fundamentally sound team and we have 2 seasons that are like 8-9 and 9-8. The he retires and we start over again. Something like this seems to be by far the most likely outcome.
100%.
I've written it a half dozen times the last several days. BB is chasing Shula and another Lombardi at this point. It's a chase for more history. Coming here doesn't improve those chances.
Maybe BB is feeling sentimental and magnanimous and I'm wrong.
But he seems like a super competitive guy itching to win big without Brady. And put a fork in that debate.
This makes perfect sense but sometimes people make weird decisions, like Jason Garrett agreeing to be OC here.
Anyway, they're two episodes in and it's a good watch. Belichick is a young 72, and he's definitely sharp.
I'd shitcan these guys and hire Belichick in two seconds. We're not going to win a title, but I am absolutely certain he'd build something better than this shit.
Lombardi is full of shit. Don't try to sugarcoat a whiny, bitter SOB.
A young 72/73? That's a ringing endorsement. He is a freaking minefield. He could not win without Brady and chased his biggest asset off by refusing to get him WRs that could catch the football, even after Brady took pay cuts to give the Patriots the money to sign better players.
No doubt Bill know football. But he is a disaster at GM.
So why not Belichick?
My concern is bringing someone in like Ben Johnson who might as well be Daboll in 2022. Offensive mind to *gasp* fix Daniel Jones year 7 or bring him in to find the next QB.
I liked their thinking with the Judge hire, he just was not qualified.
If the quarterback problem is a result of the head coach, just get a GM who can set him straight. Problem solved.
If the quarterback problem is a result of the head coach, just get a GM who can set him straight. Problem solved.
Can we restate this? The Giants have a QB and organizational dysfunction problem. I think you agree.
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
The Green Bay the D actually was not so bad. It got away towards the end. Much more talented D team though.
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
The Green Bay the D actually was not so bad. It got away towards the end. Much more talented D team though.
Yep, 2007, Thanks. The Giants defense gave up 80 points the 1st three games, IIRC. They were dreadful. And then they got better. Point is still the same, took most of three games for THAT defense to get up to speed.
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Really sucked. He will suck this week, too. He will suck for the rest of the year until he starts catching splinters on the bench or carrying the clipboard. That may not mean the rest of the team sucks. (but it helps)
New flash - half the teams in the NFL sucked last week. Teams often are bad the 1st week and sometimes the 2nd week too. Unfortunately, we have the Daniel Jones effect in addition to early season ineptitude.
In 2006, the Giants defense sucked for 2 and 3/4 games learning a new defense - and the really were atrocious. Unfortunately we don't have Eli for the offense.
I think there is talent on this team, but EVERYTHING is being held back because of the QB position.
That is my opinion, also. However, the defense should still be able to be successful or should I say solid without the QB.
I definitely do not want a first time guy like Ben Johnson. We'll be replacing him in three years. How a head coach for the team, not the QB.
I definitely do not want a first time guy like Ben Johnson. We'll be replacing him in three years. How a head coach for the team, not the QB.
if daboll fails they cannot do a first timer again. ironically i think that was mara's instinct last time and why he was hot for flores until schoen chose daboll.
Okay, I'll bite. Why does Daboll stink?
Expecting him to make more chicken salad out of Jones for more than one year was the stretch of stretches.
Look, I don't want to limit this to just the offense and QB. But he's totally handcuffed by a dying QB and a GM who seems way over his head right now.
Remember, he steered the ship in 2022 with mostly Gettleman's leftovers. Just think about that...
I'm not saying he's an elite coach and we need to keep him under any circumstances. But I also don't think he warrants the "he's a bum, he's only in the league because of Josh Allen, bad hire" type of stuff that is inevitably coming his way.
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He can go. If it's him or Belichick in 2025, that's no contest.
Okay, I'll bite. Why does Daboll stink?
Expecting him to make more chicken salad out of Jones for more than one year was the stretch of stretches.
Look, I don't want to limit this to just the offense and QB. But he's totally handcuffed by a dying QB and a GM who seems way over his head right now.
Remember, he steered the ship in 2022 with mostly Gettleman's leftovers. Just think about that...
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
there seemed to be less intensity in general.
i think that's more broadly 1 of the concerns with a head coach being both OC and HC. in a way he is his own boss, and focusing on half of the team in a very specific/tangible way (play calling) possibly at the expense of putting energy into the full team. especially since they also had a new DC in his first game.
with the 22/23 staff setups i think we would have seen daboll pacing the sidelines with more emotion.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
Just a factual question, did everyone sense the same passivity in Daboll during and after the game last week as I felt? I’m wondering if I’m projecting or if others got the same feeling.
It appears to me to be a sense of resignation in coming to terms with the reality that there is nothing that can be done with this team with DJ as its quarterback. The thesis that fixing the OL, getting weapons, committing to positional value, improving the defense, trusting the process, etc etc, only works if you have a competent NFL quarterback. DJ is who he always has been. Nothing has changed. He and Schoen made a massive bet and it has failed. They have sown the wind and shall now reap the whirlwind...
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that defense was beyond lacking in talent in 2022 and yet they got stops against lamar, rodgers, cousins, and probably some others im forgetting when it matter. they kept games close and competed.
that defense didnt give up more than 22 points in a game until week 8 against on the road vs seattle when they gave up 27. and they had multiple starters on that defense who were signed off the street after week 1. jaylon smith instead of okereke, fabian moureau at cb instead of banks.
that team just competed it's ass off.
No question. Wink may very well be the biggest loss of all this year. Bowen's defense in that first game reminded me a lot of the vaunted James Bettcher defense - a bend but don't break defense that breaks as much as it bends.
As to 2022, once Daboll put the team on his back in the Titans game by getting in DJ's face after that brutal fourth quarter interception and then had the courage to go for the two point conversion with Barkley, that locker room was fully bought in for the season. But it began with the belief that Daboll could get the team to win with a quarterback like DJ. Once that illusion was shattered, first by the Eagles playoff game, and then when DJ was rewarded with a ridiculously overvalued contract while Barkley was simultaneously completely disrespected, the locker room was lost.
im gonna push back on this a little bit. they came back against arizona last year, they actually hung in against SF on that TNF game without barkley better than they did this past week at home vs darnold. When Barkley came back they almost beat BUF. then they rallied late season with him and beat gb/phi, almost beat lar too.
i dont think anyone quit on daboll through 2 years and that is probably the biggest reason he got to year 3.
terps made a good point about hard knocks yesterday and how even when it came to supporting jones they were so feeble and lacking conviction. add to that how they misjudged the market for what was clearly their best player the last 2 years. its possible that we are seeing the quitting conditions hit a perfect storm right now in real time as jones implodes, barkley wins player of the week, and the defense regresses. either daboll leads them out of this with answers or he's done.
The latter season games you mention were with Tyrod and DeVito when I would argue that the locker room got back to believing in Daboll and his magic. As I said, Daboll's only chance now is to somehow get Lock or DeVito in there and possibly recreate the energy of those late season games.
And agree completely with Terps about Hard Knocks. When Daboll said "so I guess were running it back with DJ?", he looked like Captain Smith on the Titanic saying "so I guess it's women and children first on the lifeboats?"
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
Daboll won COY by making chicken salad out of a chicken shit quarterback. And he deserves all of the credit in doing so. The mistake was believing at the moment of truth that DJ was anything more than a backup talent and being all-in with Schoen on that contract, as the asshats have confirmed this week. After last year, to now be content with Lock and DeVito as being sufficient to support our chicken shit quarterback, particularly when the "coach up Lock the way he coached up Allen" thesis has been proven to be pure nonsense, is nothing less than a fireable offense.
Daboll's only chance to survive is if he benches DJ asap, to at least win back the locker room, and is somehow able to get this team to win with either Lock or DeVito. Which would reestablish his magician like ability to make chicken salad again. But given the schedule and current state of the team, this would be the a Houdini act for the ages. Meaning, it is a virtual certainty that Daboll, and hopefully Schoen too, will be fired either at the end of the year, or better yet, prior to the trade deadline to ensure that decisions this year are properly made with a focus on the future and rebuilding this team. Yet again.
Well, per Hard Knocks, Daboll was into trading up for Daniels and Maye. In fact, he sounded very resolute about getting Daniels.
But, alas, his boss couldn't figure that trade part out. If you want to say he was complicit in that failure, fine.
Once Schoen failed, what did we expect Daboll to say going forward? He has to deal with the card dealt and move on.
I would bet if you hooked Daboll to a polygraph, he would come clean on his feeling for Jones - he's not what I want to make this work...
but you know what was even less competitive? being down 21-3 first drive after halftime to the guy who was the SF backup QB last year, at home, with no injuries and full rest (as opposed to TNF).
what we saw on sunday was a mixture of ideal conditions (health, home, year 3 with a roster they've fully turned over) and putrid results that just felt orders of magnitude worse than anything prior with this regime. it was the death rattle we saw with the 3 prior failed post-coughlin regimes.
No argument here - Sunday was right up there with the very worst of McAdoo, Shurmur and Judge.
Pipedream...There is NFW I see Mara ever giving BB the set up and structure we had in New England.
+1. I'll take my chances with an older BB.
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if you offer him total control tomorrow, that's something dallas probably wouldnt even do if/when they fire mccarthy. is he passing on that?
Pipedream...There is NFW I see Mara ever giving BB the set up and structure we had in New England.
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
I wonder if BB wouldn't go into an interview demanding the exact same structure he had in New England. Maybe he's open to a more "traditional" structure. I would prefer the SF model, where BB picks his GM, though; NOT Mara!
Now, that is right my alley. Let the HC, ala Shanahan in San Fran, handpick his GM.
That is the correct reporting structure in my view. GM reports to HC and HC reports to the Owner(s).