I know how much he loves the Giants organzation, but he will no doubt want alot of power and I just dont see the Giants willing to give one person that much authority over the operation
I hear you and I love the smashmouth approach. But today's game screams getting a high-level QB. It's such a must-have.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
I'm not saying didn't go for the high level QB. If the opportunity arises, do it. I just think this is the way to tread water (and possibly better) until that QB arrives.
Start out like Pittsburgh is now, with the goal being to become what Harbaugh is building in LA.
BB is chasing Shula and more Lombardi trophies. Right now, this place isn't close for a 73 old HC.
If Jacksonville struggles, I could see BB there with Lawrence.
totally agree BW. Perfect for both team and him. I suspect Daboll will be back unless he loses the team. I also think Jones is on a shorter leash than we think
I hear you and I love the smashmouth approach. But today's game screams getting a high-level QB. It's such a must-have.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
the 2 macro trends around the league other than the basics (mahomes = good) are the shanahan offenses using pre-snap motion and defenses playing 2 high zones exactly as you described. spags and mcdermott at the top of those charts.
guessing how the next trends evolve seems difficult, id rather get someone like harbough who once again looks on track to succeed his own way because he just knows how to win by building a physical football team.
Today's game is so different than the one we grew up with, and there's a dearth of great coaches imo. Today's players make so much money, it's hard to get through. Even BB struggled in recent seasons as his personnel choices often weren't very good, and Brady and the core aged. Everyone is on a short leash, owners and fans get desperate, etc.
From what I'd heard, the BB ship sailed a decade ago.
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
I don't deny that this is a quarterback league. But there are two difficult truths:
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
i agree w/ most of that but it's not really a novel approach
its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
RE: RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
after three seasons so you can hire a 73 year old guy to take over for as long as it takes him to claim the the NFL record for career wins, you gotta do it.
it could take years for him to get any wins with this team
RE: i agree w/ most of that but it's not really a novel approach
its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
I don't deny that this is a quarterback league. But there are two difficult truths:
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I hear you on that and I'd be good with that strategy. The problem is that I don't think the Giants are ever going to have a plus personnel department. So I don't know if we'd ever accrue the advantages of saving $$ on the QB position.
I'm coming to the perspective that the model is good QB/great WR + some talent on D (ideally an elite pass rusher) I think that can make you a 2nd tier contender and have enough upside volatility to go deep in the playoffs. This is sort of the current Bengals and 2011 Giants model. Getting the WR and defensive player isn't that hard. And we might have both. You just have to get lucky at QB. Admittedly, that's not much of a plan, but I think that's the best we can hope for.
but I don't think it's a slam dunk. Much won't change for the Giants until they finally fix the fronts. This was a priority when TC took the job in 2004 and the winning followed. You see the change and emphasis in players added TC's first two years. When the fronts fell apart so did the franchise. Most know the major culprits that started the demise and it wasn't TC/Eli. The same issue remains today.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
I don't deny that this is a quarterback league. But there are two difficult truths:
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I agree and have said this in the past. Build a team and then get whatever mobile QB with a decent arm is there in the draft, like a Bo Nix.
In fact, I said view QBs as expendable - 4 or 5 years and trade or let go. Keeps the ridiculous QB contracts off the cap number.
Obviously if you find Mahomes #2, keep him.
But, frankly, nobody has an airtight plan for QB. Most teams luck into a QB whether it be with the #1 or #2 pick of the draft or Shanahan with Purdy. Then there are injuries. Paying these guys $50 mill per with $150/$200 mill gtd is crazy when one unfortunate hit can end a career.
Listen to him on his podcasts and interviews since he left NE, and it's clear he hasn't lost it mentally.
However, I don't want him anywhere near GM duties, and I don't know how you get a younger GM to resist deferring to him.
They'd have to sort that out.
That is exactly the problem. Combine that with 73 years old and where does that leave a team 3 years down the road.
Also, remember, we have folks here on BBI that want the GM subservient to the HC - the GM drafts or signs players as per instructions of the HC. That is what BB would want/do.
but I don't think it's a slam dunk. Much won't change for the Giants until they finally fix the fronts. This was a priority when TC took the job in 2004 and the winning followed. You see the change and emphasis in players added TC's first two years. When the fronts fell apart so did the franchise. Most know the major culprits that started the demise and it wasn't TC/Eli. The same issue remains today.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
They have the best OT and best DT in the NFL. Stop acting like they’ve ignored the fronts
RE: RE: RE: not sure why bb ship would have sailed any time prior
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
Realistic or not, a move to add Belichick doesn't move the needle
We don't have the front office personnel experience to compete for talent in the modern NFL. The personnel department has been injected with family members of the ownership who never had to prove themselves elsewhere. They are still operating in the 1990s where you find draft a QB and forget about the position until they retire, because the only thing worse than losing is a QB controversy.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
'''
Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
RE: Agree with the sentiments from GT and Section125
We don't have the front office personnel experience to compete for talent in the modern NFL. The personnel department has been injected with family members of the ownership who never had to prove themselves elsewhere. They are still operating in the 1990s where you find draft a QB and forget about the position until they retire, because the only thing worse than losing is a QB controversy.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
Also agree with the comments. Until the operation is completely turned over to football people who actually know how to build a world class organization, the Giants are screwed. The only time this happened in the last 50+ years is when the Giants were forced to do this. Any success we've had in the last 40 years is despite the Maras & family, not because of them. They think it is the other way around.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
RE: RE: Realistic or not, a move to add Belichick doesn't move the needle
'''
Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
I don't disagree they need something functional to operate at QB, but that should be supplemented with an eval/invest process on QBs in the draft. And this needs to happen every year (or almost every year). And not just perfunctory, there needs to be some risks and prospects taken.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
I agree with signing FA oline vets. Even the best intentions in the draft are a crapshoot. Evan Neal is a perfect example. Virtually a perfect pedigree and right now he is no where near a functional NFL lineman. (I still blame Bobby Johnson mostly)
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
That or be committed to drafting mid round lineman have them develop in the pro game over 2-3 years.
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
It's a failure in execution that impacts timing.
They don't have a time machine to go grab two starters from the 2016 draft.
Maybe 5 years from now, we'll look back at the longevity of Thomas, JMS, and Neal and their respective early struggles will be a distant memory.
But from a team building perspective, I don't think the Giants are in a position to do what Detroit accomplished 8 years ago.
RE: RE: i agree w/ most of that but it's not really a novel approach
its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
we agree again - but the odds show most have been kidding themselves thinking they could find another mcvay/shanahan. except basically all the guys who had been on that one specific staff who have worked out and a few of their direct disciples.
Agree they can't have a dominant line next year or the year after since dominant Olinemen aren't usually available via FA. But the point is that this team has no identity right now. WHat are they trying to accomplish? Get really good WRs and pass rushers and then wait for Patrick Mahomes to be available where you draft?
The two best players on this team are Thomas and Lawrence. You have a huge building block on each line right now. Lean into those strengths. You added Burns to the Dline who should help. Hopefully JMS becomes a strength at C. The it is up to the staff to get something out of Neal and Thibs or move on from them. But this team could have an excellent line in the next 2-3 years with the right investments.
Let's face it, this team has been plugging holes for the better part of the last two decades. It is time to commit to a plan instead of trying to plus holes and hope to sneak into the playoffs now and again when everything breaks right for you.
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
I'm not saying didn't go for the high level QB. If the opportunity arises, do it. I just think this is the way to tread water (and possibly better) until that QB arrives.
Start out like Pittsburgh is now, with the goal being to become what Harbaugh is building in LA.
BB is chasing Shula and more Lombardi trophies. Right now, this place isn't close for a 73 old HC.
If Jacksonville struggles, I could see BB there with Lawrence.
Look, at the end of the day, the NFL is a talent acquisition business. And right now, alas, it seems like we just can't find the right people to find that and further develop it.
I actually think your better idea was this off-season and making a serious run at Harbaugh. Do you think he would have gone into the April draft content to stick with #8?
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
Sorry... Spags has already proved that he not a good head coach.
Great D Coordinator
Quote:
defense has somehow started making a comeback. even andy reid has been investing more on defense than offense in the last several years. they've been top 10 in points allowed pretty much every year since 2019, and last year they were 2nd. all of the 4 acfcg/nfcg were the best defenses.
since the 2012 CBA a lot of things have evolved. there was a lot of change in a short period of time. chasing QB gurus has been popular bc most of those changes slanted toward the offense initially but im not entirely sure it's been effective outside the shanahan system (mcvay, mcdaniels, koc).
carroll, tomlin, vrabel, belichick, mcdermott, john harbough, now ryans, dan campbell. now jim harbough. bowles has done a good job.
we'll see how raheem, macdonald, mayo, quinn, (and eberflus/allen/saleh) do this year, but there's been more of a renaissance with defensive head coaches than people realize.
Yeah, those are good observations. We saw some signs last year with the defenses staying ahead of the offenses most of the season (I think). And this past weekend the defenses seemed to have the advantage again.
But I don't know if we are in a defensive resurgence or if we are seeing a dip in quality QB play. Could be a combination of both.
I either read or heard that DCs are using more zone and double-high safeties to limit splash plays, force patience, and concede FGs over TDs. Nothing ground-breaking, but the adjustments are occurring.
the 2 macro trends around the league other than the basics (mahomes = good) are the shanahan offenses using pre-snap motion and defenses playing 2 high zones exactly as you described. spags and mcdermott at the top of those charts.
guessing how the next trends evolve seems difficult, id rather get someone like harbough who once again looks on track to succeed his own way because he just knows how to win by building a physical football team.
Totally agree.
From what I'd heard, the BB ship sailed a decade ago.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
Quote:
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I hear you on that and I'd be good with that strategy. The problem is that I don't think the Giants are ever going to have a plus personnel department. So I don't know if we'd ever accrue the advantages of saving $$ on the QB position.
I'm coming to the perspective that the model is good QB/great WR + some talent on D (ideally an elite pass rusher) I think that can make you a 2nd tier contender and have enough upside volatility to go deep in the playoffs. This is sort of the current Bengals and 2011 Giants model. Getting the WR and defensive player isn't that hard. And we might have both. You just have to get lucky at QB. Admittedly, that's not much of a plan, but I think that's the best we can hope for.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
1. The Giants don't presently have a QB, and more importantly...
2. I don't think they have an intelligent method in place to get a quarterback
I go back to Eli...the more I look at how that went down the dumber the Giants look in retrospect for that trade. It worked out, but it was a COLOSSAL gamble in an era where the number one pick instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league. I think that was a case of a flawed process yielding a good result. Based on the Jones experience I fear that is going to be their approach at QB: go all in on a guy and hope he works out.
I think the way to best control for that is to build a big, strong team whose reliance on the QB is minimized as much as possible. The two current models that come into my mind most are Pittsburgh and Detroit. Goff is a good player though not top shelf, and obviously Fields/Wilson are below that. Despite that those teams have strong frameworks elsewhere that can help carry those imperfect QBs to good things.
I think that might be the best way to go for the Giants. I don't see this team ever playing basketball on grass distributing to speedsters like Nabers and Hyatt. I say get back to the roots. Let's own what we have been under the Maras when things were good, because I don't see the Giants competing with those teams that understand state of the art offense.
I agree and have said this in the past. Build a team and then get whatever mobile QB with a decent arm is there in the draft, like a Bo Nix.
In fact, I said view QBs as expendable - 4 or 5 years and trade or let go. Keeps the ridiculous QB contracts off the cap number.
Obviously if you find Mahomes #2, keep him.
But, frankly, nobody has an airtight plan for QB. Most teams luck into a QB whether it be with the #1 or #2 pick of the draft or Shanahan with Purdy. Then there are injuries. Paying these guys $50 mill per with $150/$200 mill gtd is crazy when one unfortunate hit can end a career.
However, I don't want him anywhere near GM duties, and I don't know how you get a younger GM to resist deferring to him.
They'd have to sort that out.
However, I don't want him anywhere near GM duties, and I don't know how you get a younger GM to resist deferring to him.
They'd have to sort that out.
That is exactly the problem. Combine that with 73 years old and where does that leave a team 3 years down the road.
Also, remember, we have folks here on BBI that want the GM subservient to the HC - the GM drafts or signs players as per instructions of the HC. That is what BB would want/do.
Harbaugh would have been a great hire who always stressed building top lines as a foundation everywhere he has been. Like TC, he also believes you build the offense off a strong running game primarily with RB's. Just like Det/SF do now.
They have the best OT and best DT in the NFL. Stop acting like they’ve ignored the fronts
Quote:
In comment 16607374 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
This franchise is just wasting time right now. And adding BB in an effort to reset the clock would just be doing more of the same.
Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
I would say he would be a less realistic option. Mara may want him stuffed and mounted in the HC's office as inspiration.
'''
Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
No GM we can bring in can work past those handicaps other than BB. The problem is that BB is an incredibly good coach, but a poor talent evaluator. As mentioned, if BB is coaching this team, he is the GM whether he is given that title or not. Nobody is telling him to get out of the draft room or pipe down.
The Giants should be following the model Campbell did in Detroit. If you can't win the battle for offensive innovation in the modern NFL, you change the game and you go the opposite direction. You focus on the Oline and the running game, and you grab a QB to develop and a middling vet in FA to play until he is ready.
I don't love the idea of hiring a 73 year old to take over the operations, but I am going to go the opposite of Bitey's point yesterday - we need a historian not another innovator. This organization is not built for innovation.
Also agree with the comments. Until the operation is completely turned over to football people who actually know how to build a world class organization, the Giants are screwed. The only time this happened in the last 50+ years is when the Giants were forced to do this. Any success we've had in the last 40 years is despite the Maras & family, not because of them. They think it is the other way around.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
Quote:
'''
Until someone gets serious in that building about investing in the QB position in a smart fashion this franchise will remain stuck in the mud.
They just need a functional QB. I watched Miami's backup come in and make some plays or at least get the ball out near the open receiver most of the time.
I think there is enough on the Giants right now, that a functional QB makes them a .500 team.
I don't disagree they need something functional to operate at QB, but that should be supplemented with an eval/invest process on QBs in the draft. And this needs to happen every year (or almost every year). And not just perfunctory, there needs to be some risks and prospects taken.
BB is not needed for this.
Quote:
unless he dies before next season. if he dies he is not a realistic option.
I would say he would be a less realistic option. Mara may want him stuffed and mounted in the HC's office as inspiration.
lol, still an option to be HC as a mounted head. I agree.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
Quote:
Detroit's oline has been a work in progress for nearly a decade.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
I agree with signing FA oline vets. Even the best intentions in the draft are a crapshoot. Evan Neal is a perfect example. Virtually a perfect pedigree and right now he is no where near a functional NFL lineman. (I still blame Bobby Johnson mostly)
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
Based on Detroit's OL and the Giants OL looking functional for the first time in ages, this seems like the position group where you'd want to allocate dollars on vets rather than rely on the draft, since everyone is saying that colleges don't reliably develop OL anymore. Let that crapshoot be someone else's problem.
That or be committed to drafting mid round lineman have them develop in the pro game over 2-3 years.
G Graham Glasgow - 3rd round pick 2016
G Kevin Zeitler - UFA 2024
C Frank Ragnow - 1st round pick 2018
T Penei Sewell - 1st round pick 2021
T Taylor Decker - 1st round pick 2016
Short of a time machine, I'm not sure this is a model to replicate.
The Giants have two top-10 picks and a second round pick in the last 4 years invested in the line. The difference between the Giants and the Lions is not the investments or timing, it is the results.
This is not a failure of approach, it is a failure of execution.
It's a failure in execution that impacts timing.
They don't have a time machine to go grab two starters from the 2016 draft.
Maybe 5 years from now, we'll look back at the longevity of Thomas, JMS, and Neal and their respective early struggles will be a distant memory.
But from a team building perspective, I don't think the Giants are in a position to do what Detroit accomplished 8 years ago.
Quote:
its basically the buffalo approach. or vrabel. or belichick. or harbaugh.
if we ran back the heavy handed joe judge intro presser that plan would fit his vision, he just had no idea how to get there beyond talk.
it's smart/tough/dependable, except executed correctly. dan campbell basically.
the giants problem hasnt been that their plans didnt have a lot of that intention, they havent executed it. they've have chosen the wrong leaders. they have only ever been the more physical team on rare occasions post-coughlin.
That's my point; it isn't a novel approach. I didn't think this organization is suited to handle novel approaches. I think they are kidding themselves into thinking they can find the next Shanahan or McVay; I expect that Shanahan or McVay would have ended up another McAdoo or Daboll had they gone to the Giants.
we agree again - but the odds show most have been kidding themselves thinking they could find another mcvay/shanahan. except basically all the guys who had been on that one specific staff who have worked out and a few of their direct disciples.
The two best players on this team are Thomas and Lawrence. You have a huge building block on each line right now. Lean into those strengths. You added Burns to the Dline who should help. Hopefully JMS becomes a strength at C. The it is up to the staff to get something out of Neal and Thibs or move on from them. But this team could have an excellent line in the next 2-3 years with the right investments.
Let's face it, this team has been plugging holes for the better part of the last two decades. It is time to commit to a plan instead of trying to plus holes and hope to sneak into the playoffs now and again when everything breaks right for you.
Quote:
In comment 16607379 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 16607374 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
nobody thought he was ever getting out of ne, certainly not when brady was there. by the time it was rumored last year he may be on the outs daboll seemed secure.
either way things change and if this regime flames out as spectacularly as last sunday its time to revaluate everything. again. including whatever may have seemed unlikely 10 years ago.
BB wanted full.control, Giants said no. Same with Cowher. Doubt that would change.
when could they have even said no? he won super bowls in NE in 2014, 2016, 2018. made the SB in 2017. that basically covers the entire coughlin, reese, mcadoo, gettleman, shurmur era of hiring processes with his team participating and mostly winning super bowls with brady.
There were back channel messages exchanged after TC was fired.
im gonna call some mild bs on this - not on you or your credibility just on the quality and likelihood of the info relayed to you. a timeline:
January 4 2016
- Coughlin resigns, Reese remains
- defending SB champion NE on a bye week as 2 seed having gone 12-4
January 14 2016
- Giants hire Ben Mcadoo
January 16 / 24 2016
- NE beats KC 27-20, setting up January 24 AFCCG vs #1 seed Peyton Manning and Denver Broncos, which they lost 20-18.
Could they have checked in with BB during his bye week? sure. but what are the odds any non-parcells non-scumbag would seriously consider any move like that mid-dynasty?
a year later on 2/5/17 NE won super bowl 51 vs seattle on malcolm butlers INT and belichick's famous non-timeout, and then 2 years after that on 2/3/19 they won super bowl 53 vs the Rams.
forget the giants, how likely does it seem that belichick would have responded to any overture at that time or that kraft would have allowed it for anything short of the multiple first round picks he paid as compensation to jets?