A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pickett was a late 1st round pick which didn't involve trading multiple 1st round and more picks to acquire. Simply a later 1st round bust. Not nearly the same
You're right that a #1 overall pick busting hurts worse than a mid/late 1st round pick busting does. But that's because of the value of that pick, not because they used it on a QB.
For example, Trent Richardson busting as the #3 overall pick was no less of a wasted opportunity than Sam Darnold busting in the same draft slot a few years later. And that's all the busted pick actually is: a wasted opportunity. Gone are the days of an albatross contract attached to a highly drafted QB. Now a rookie QB costs exactly the same as any other position, defined entirely by what slot he's drafted in.
I never understood the hype with this guy. He's an unimpressive QB who was surrounded by NFL players playing against college guys at Alabama.
Bryce Young Alabama CMP% - 65.8%
Mac Jones Alabama CMP% - 74.3
That right there should've been a big red flag that this guy isn't all that.
totally misses the context of the situations they were each in.
after williams/metchie got hurt/left bryce young had nobody to throw to. mac jones in his 1 year as starter was throwing almost exclusively to first round picks and/or future pro bowlers (devonta, waddle, metchie, najee harris were his 4 leading receivers).
mac's team averaged 48 ppg with their 3 first rounders devonta/waddle/najee scoring most of those tds.
bryce's teams dropped in 2021/2022 to 40/41 ppg respectively but the 2022 team in particular had nothing. his leading receiver was jermaine burton. actually it was his rb gibbs, which shows how little they had a WR.
For him. He might suck but 3rd rounders suck all the time and do does our backup..
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
For him. He might suck but 3rd rounders suck all the time and do does our backup..
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
It's been 2 games. Even the worse case scenario for young (completely sucks this year and Daboll gets a chance to see what he can do with someone other than DJ. Plus it allows us to evaluate Daboll.) in this worst case scenario we also ensure that DJ can be dropped and we don't have to worry about DJ's injury guarantee. I think all that is easily worth 3rd round pick.
Seems pretty clear what that Steelers are attempted to do and that is be like the Steelers again. Look at the OL investments they made this offseason. Heck of a running game to start the season.
Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
It was evident almost immediately that Young wasn't going to be successful in this league. But I am very surprised that Tepper is willing to acknowledge the mistake and move on. It can't be easy knowing that he traded up for the opportunity to pass on CJ Stroud and take Bryce Young. Good for Tepper and good for Carolina Panther fans.
As others have mentioned, this is the right approach - fast failure until the elite guy wins the job through a meritocratic process. No full bloom love scholarships. Hopefully John Mara is paying attention and will add this to his experiential learning process.
Please don’t tell me you are a Jones hater…because if you are and yet say you will line up to acquire the horrible munchkin, something is amiss with your cognitive skills.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
If I can speak for Terps, he isn't saying Pittsburgh is winning because of their QB situation.
He's saying they were right to jettison Pickens and, for now, go cheap with Wilson and Fields. And tread water until they can figure out their long-term solution.
Big credit to the coaching staff for finding a winning formula for now. Ball control, a few big passing plays, great defense and tremendous coaching.
But I don't think this approach is sustainable. They will need better answers eventually.
Watching him play you would think he was an undrafted free agent and not the number one pick overall . I think he is a step down from Daniel Jones. Think about that.....lol
They're doing exactly what they're supposed to do; move on. Now the harder cases are those where the player has flashed real talent. In those instances, your window might be three years rather than 1 and a quarter. But the single biggest mistake you can make is wishful thinking. We should've moved on from Jones after his second year. We should've picked Justin Herbert.
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
RE: RE: Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
RE: RE: RE: Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
They absolutely would NOT have.
But even using your argument, how about Mitch Trubisky? What was materially different about Trubisky's performance vs. Jones's during each of their respective rookie contracts?
RE: RE: So they swung and missed on a top QB pick.
They're doing exactly what they're supposed to do; move on. Now the harder cases are those where the player has flashed real talent. In those instances, your window might be three years rather than 1 and a quarter. But the single biggest mistake you can make is wishful thinking. We should've moved on from Jones after his second year. We should've picked Justin Herbert.
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
Here we go again with "second best year ever for a rookie QB."
It's not based on anything, but keep repeating it. Make sure you don't mention the 19 fumbles and 12 interceptions or the fact that that "second best year ever for a rookie QB" only really came down to four good games.
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
...SUMMARY: A two-year starter at Alabama, Young thrived in offensive coordinator Bill O’Brien’s pro-style spread attack, becoming the first quarterback in school
history to win the Heisman Trophy. The first Alabama player to throw for 3,000-plus yards in separate seasons, he set the single-season school records for passing
yards (4,872) and touchdowns (47), while finishing his career No. 2 in passing yards (8,356) and passing touchdowns (80). A point guard on the football field with his
rare vision and spatial awareness, Young plays with impressive body rhythm and controlled urgency with his mind, feet and release. Although some of his magic acts
will be tough to replicate in the NFL and will lead to durability concerns, he has a sixth sense for pressure and the crafty reaction skills to improvise, buy time and
create off-script. Overall, Young is a size outlier (he will be the smallest quarterback in the NFL the moment he is drafted) with average arm power, but he is a
natural passer with an instinctive feel for throw location and play extension. Despite limited physical traits, he has the high-end intangibles and talent required to
be an impact starter...
PFF?
Quote:
1. Bryce Young, Alabama
BIG BOARD RANK: 1
Young is the best playmaker at the quarterback position in the draft class. He can get you a bucket. Young earned a 92.2 grade in 2021 when he won the Heisman, and he followed it up with a 91.5 in 2022.
Walter Football?
too much to type, #1 ranked QB in the 2023 draft.
Mel Kiper?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
Lance Zierlein?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
who else is there? i don't know.
But most had Young as the #1 QB and #1 pick in the 2023 draft.
but now, the BBI experts all knew he wouldn't be good.
lol.
RE: RE: RE: Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
Daniel Jones never did a single thing "infinitely better" than anyone. Kenny Pickett has a 14-10 record as a starter over his first two years. And the absolute right thing to do for the Steelers was to move on from him as he is not an elite talent in the NFL. And neither is Daniel Jones. DJ had a 3-9 record as a starter his rookie year, having a couple of good games against REALLY BAD teams. The absolute right thing to do was draft Justin Herbert in 2020 and trade Daniel Jones at the trade deadline in 2020. DJ is now 22-38-1 as a starter and will be remembered as the worst quarterback in NFL history to ever play the position with fifty or more starts. Everything else is just delusion, denial and self-preservation.
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
I felt similarly. Top picks in the lottery should have special physical tools; and you hope you can teach the thinking/process part.
Because no one - expert or novice - has a clue about a prospect's brain and how they will process and adapt to the NFL style. That's impossible in my book. And the art of the drafting...
the actual opinions on Young on here pre-draft, I am sure someone can dig them up, but I do remember so many people were convinced Stroud would fail in the pros and he was just a product of a great team in college.
I would say it was 50/50, Stroud vs. Young. And you are right about the negative view on Stroud, but that was mostly due to the previous OSU QBs that failed (Fields, Haskins).
Terps is right. It isn’t the end of the world if you miss on a QB, even though it’s obviously not ideal. Where we fucked up is not recognizing Jones isn’t the answer and moving on. It’s almost as if there are people inside 1925 Giants Way who are arrogant enough to think they are going to prove everyone wrong and that Jones is going to blossom into an elite quarterback.
The crazy thing with Jones is that he has been viewed as a reach since day 1. It’s not like Young who people thought was at worst the second pick in the draft. He won the MVP of the Senior Bowl and the front office lost their minds over him. The top prospects at QB are typically not competing at the Senior Bowl because they don’t want to risk getting injured.
Also the game itself is a joke. The Senior Bowl practices are what really matters, and Jones was bad in them. Gettleman, et al., were too stupid to know that apparently.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pitt did not rebuild for cheap. Neither QB is under contract for next season. Let’s see what it costs them to resign Fields or Wilson this offseason. Tip of the cap for moving on from Pickett quickly, but they have not solved their QB problem long term.
They put themselves in a position to have options. If they want to spend big money on Fields, they can. If they want to draft someone instead, they can.
They haven't solved it long term, but they solved it this year.
How have tehy solved it this year. Fields first two games: 30/43 and avergaing 136 yards. They scored an average of 15.5 points. If this were the Giants, you'd be screaming (rightfully) that the Gimnats are winning despite Jones and Jones is just riding the defenses coattails. C'mon, Pittsburgh absolutely has not solved their QB situation this season. They have a great defense again. And there season will be sabotaged despite that great defense because of subpar QB play. Again.
Pittsburgh has done a lot right over the years as far as building a great, hardnosed defense. Fixing the QB position is not one of them
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
That's a valid point. I don't know whether Pittsburgh signed any FAs with the money but point made.
RE: Don't throw your rotten eggs and tomatoes all at the same time
But I think the clock is also starting to tick on Trevor Lawrence. It's year 4, and he hasn't shown marked improvement. Unless you're John Mara, how long is too long?
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
+1. Bandwagon and the Alabama drum beaters hype.
Alabama players do get overhyped, but scouts did like his ability to extend plays while keeping his options open. He also demonstrated feel for the pass rush in college. The issues with Stroud centered more on how was he different than Haskins. Both were playing for teams that every week had superior talent to their opponent especially on the OL and had a WR corps where every player was a D1 starter. To spread the field with that you didn’t require the QB to make many reads.
Neighbor is pretty friendly with someone who works for the Panthers and apparently Reich and the football people were banging the table pretty hard for Stroud, but Tepper wanted Young and ownership won in the end. I think that was the beginning of the end for Frank in Charlotte.
Neighbor is pretty friendly with someone who works for the Panthers and apparently Reich and the football people were banging the table pretty hard for Stroud, but Tepper wanted Young and ownership won in the end. I think that was the beginning of the end for Frank in Charlotte.
Yeah, that story definitely got out into there to Tepper's dislike. In fact, rumor has it that Mrs. Tepper chimed in with her opinion and how she really like Young (I'm not kidding).
So, when Reich wouldn't tow the Tepper Company line and get Young up to the level of Stroud, Reich was a dead man walking.
It's at least possible that his skills would work in a system like that. It is not possible that Young will succeed on a bad team. He will be completely unplayable, as he has been so far in his career. I don't know if people realize how bad he's been. He looks like a high school player out there. Like he just throws ducks up in random locations on the field. Literally looks like one of the worst QBs ever to play in the NFL.
You cannot put a guy like that out on the field. It's too destructive. It's still possible that he could be OK in a different environment. But I wouldn't give up more than a 7th round pick for him. I know how bad Carolina is, It's still possible that he's not even a 3rd string NFL QB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
Daniel Jones never did a single thing "infinitely better" than anyone. Kenny Pickett has a 14-10 record as a starter over his first two years. And the absolute right thing to do for the Steelers was to move on from him as he is not an elite talent in the NFL. And neither is Daniel Jones. DJ had a 3-9 record as a starter his rookie year, having a couple of good games against REALLY BAD teams. The absolute right thing to do was draft Justin Herbert in 2020 and trade Daniel Jones at the trade deadline in 2020. DJ is now 22-38-1 as a starter and will be remembered as the worst quarterback in NFL history to ever play the position with fifty or more starts. Everything else is just delusion, denial and self-preservation.
Oh stop it. You guys get so silly with your Daniel Jones hate. Pickett has 24 career starts. Young has 18. Daniel Jones, who BBI reminds me never throws TDs, had more than double the amount of TDs through his first 24 starts compared to Pickett and more than double the amount of TDs Bryce Young had in his first 18 starts. Pickett had one 300 yard passing game in his career, a game the Steelers lost by 30+ points. Daniel Jones had a 300 yard passing game in his first NFL start.
Neither Pickett nor Young showed a single thing as rookies or in their second seasons that would lead anyone to believe that they could be NFL starters. Bringing up Pickett’s record is so ridiculous, lest you think Justin Fields is the reason the Steelers are 2-0 right now and not the defense allowing 8 points per game.
The Giants will move on from Jones after this season, but the idea that he was the same as Pickett or Bryce Young is asinine.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
So true. Pitt has found ways to compete the last few years when most teams would finally crumble and endure many losing seasons. Not Pitt. I know their fan base is angry and frustrated but at least they fucking win some games. No less than 9 wins per the last 3 seasons. That’s a golden age compared to this shit.
I hope all of the idiots on this thread announcing how much they knew Young could not succeed in the NFL could pull up their posts to Sy’s scouting report where he had Young as a first round pick and QB1 in that draft and show us where they told Sy he was full of shit.
Young is a talented QB who was virtually the consensus top pick. If you want to defend the Giants taking Thibs and Neal where they did because everyone agreed they were top prospects, you have to apply the same logic to the Panthers. They did the same thing, with similar results.
Sometimes top prospects don’t reach their potential for a number of reasons we may not know about. But Young obviously busting because he is small is just a stupid argument to make.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
Its bot a franchise killer if your organization recognizes they made a mistake and instead of trying to make something work that cant they move on.
Franchise killers are taking a RB #2 when you are no where near winning and need a QB. That decision set in motion the shit show we have now.
I don't know how you can call taking an RB at 2 a franchise killer but not the wrong QB. Both set a franchise back because you have an oppostunity for a franchiose altering player but waste it.
If Carolina had picked Stroud, they'd be set at QB for the next decade and subsequent drafts are about filling in the holes around him. That's a killer for a franchise. Now even assuming they pick the right QB in this draft, you're at least 4-5 years behind from where you should have been
The other point here is that Dalton will likely revive this team
said the Panthers are one of the worst teams he has seen since he started doing this. Said Bryce is missing throws he made in high school and his confidence is shot. He had him as the top QB in that draft. I saw another brief clip and his mechanics are terrible and looks nothing like what I remember.
This is looking like a reboot situation somewhere else.
Not sure I get the point of the benching. You drafted the guy #1 overall and need to let him work through it with the new coach.
If the quarterback can't function in the offense, you're hurting the development of the other players. A team can't operate in the service of a QB no matter how high he was drafted.
Not sure I get the point of the benching. You drafted the guy #1 overall and need to let him work through it with the new coach.
I never spent one second worried that if Jones wasn't playing for the Giants because he was benched or if they gave up on him after two seasons and he was sent away to another team, that we'd be missing him and he'd flourish elsewhere.
Maybe Carolina has the same confidence in Young that I do in Jones? Which is none.
That's what Young looks like. Maybe worse. The situation is bad, but he has played like the worst QB you have ever seen in the NFL. And that's coming off 1st team reps since last year. They had to bench him.
Quote:
In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
Quote:
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pickett was a late 1st round pick which didn't involve trading multiple 1st round and more picks to acquire. Simply a later 1st round bust. Not nearly the same
You're right that a #1 overall pick busting hurts worse than a mid/late 1st round pick busting does. But that's because of the value of that pick, not because they used it on a QB.
For example, Trent Richardson busting as the #3 overall pick was no less of a wasted opportunity than Sam Darnold busting in the same draft slot a few years later. And that's all the busted pick actually is: a wasted opportunity. Gone are the days of an albatross contract attached to a highly drafted QB. Now a rookie QB costs exactly the same as any other position, defined entirely by what slot he's drafted in.
Bryce Young Alabama CMP% - 65.8%
Mac Jones Alabama CMP% - 74.3
That right there should've been a big red flag that this guy isn't all that.
totally misses the context of the situations they were each in.
after williams/metchie got hurt/left bryce young had nobody to throw to. mac jones in his 1 year as starter was throwing almost exclusively to first round picks and/or future pro bowlers (devonta, waddle, metchie, najee harris were his 4 leading receivers).
mac's team averaged 48 ppg with their 3 first rounders devonta/waddle/najee scoring most of those tds.
bryce's teams dropped in 2021/2022 to 40/41 ppg respectively but the 2022 team in particular had nothing. his leading receiver was jermaine burton. actually it was his rb gibbs, which shows how little they had a WR.
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
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For him. He might suck but 3rd rounders suck all the time and do does our backup..
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
It's been 2 games. Even the worse case scenario for young (completely sucks this year and Daboll gets a chance to see what he can do with someone other than DJ. Plus it allows us to evaluate Daboll.) in this worst case scenario we also ensure that DJ can be dropped and we don't have to worry about DJ's injury guarantee. I think all that is easily worth 3rd round pick.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
As others have mentioned, this is the right approach - fast failure until the elite guy wins the job through a meritocratic process. No full bloom love scholarships. Hopefully John Mara is paying attention and will add this to his experiential learning process.
It is very realistic they will be in market for a new QB. TBH since Jones is from there, he could wind up there competing.
Carolina is the worst team right now, and we are 2nd worst I think.
Who is the QB then?
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
If I can speak for Terps, he isn't saying Pittsburgh is winning because of their QB situation.
He's saying they were right to jettison Pickens and, for now, go cheap with Wilson and Fields. And tread water until they can figure out their long-term solution.
Big credit to the coaching staff for finding a winning formula for now. Ball control, a few big passing plays, great defense and tremendous coaching.
But I don't think this approach is sustainable. They will need better answers eventually.
I wonder what the cap implications look like if we traded Lock for Young and a draft pick.
We know Jones isn’t the answer. And we know the rest of the QB room isn’t either.
Why not take a chance with the consensus #1 pick last year (Yes we all know how well CJ is playing )
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
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played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
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In comment 16612905 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
They absolutely would NOT have.
But even using your argument, how about Mitch Trubisky? What was materially different about Trubisky's performance vs. Jones's during each of their respective rookie contracts?
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They're doing exactly what they're supposed to do; move on. Now the harder cases are those where the player has flashed real talent. In those instances, your window might be three years rather than 1 and a quarter. But the single biggest mistake you can make is wishful thinking. We should've moved on from Jones after his second year. We should've picked Justin Herbert.
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
Here we go again with "second best year ever for a rookie QB."
It's not based on anything, but keep repeating it. Make sure you don't mention the 19 fumbles and 12 interceptions or the fact that that "second best year ever for a rookie QB" only really came down to four good games.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
history to win the Heisman Trophy. The first Alabama player to throw for 3,000-plus yards in separate seasons, he set the single-season school records for passing
yards (4,872) and touchdowns (47), while finishing his career No. 2 in passing yards (8,356) and passing touchdowns (80). A point guard on the football field with his
rare vision and spatial awareness, Young plays with impressive body rhythm and controlled urgency with his mind, feet and release. Although some of his magic acts
will be tough to replicate in the NFL and will lead to durability concerns, he has a sixth sense for pressure and the crafty reaction skills to improvise, buy time and
create off-script. Overall, Young is a size outlier (he will be the smallest quarterback in the NFL the moment he is drafted) with average arm power, but he is a
natural passer with an instinctive feel for throw location and play extension. Despite limited physical traits, he has the high-end intangibles and talent required to
be an impact starter...
PFF?
BIG BOARD RANK: 1
Young is the best playmaker at the quarterback position in the draft class. He can get you a bucket. Young earned a 92.2 grade in 2021 when he won the Heisman, and he followed it up with a 91.5 in 2022.
Walter Football?
too much to type, #1 ranked QB in the 2023 draft.
Mel Kiper?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
Lance Zierlein?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
who else is there? i don't know.
But most had Young as the #1 QB and #1 pick in the 2023 draft.
but now, the BBI experts all knew he wouldn't be good.
lol.
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In comment 16612905 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
Daniel Jones never did a single thing "infinitely better" than anyone. Kenny Pickett has a 14-10 record as a starter over his first two years. And the absolute right thing to do for the Steelers was to move on from him as he is not an elite talent in the NFL. And neither is Daniel Jones. DJ had a 3-9 record as a starter his rookie year, having a couple of good games against REALLY BAD teams. The absolute right thing to do was draft Justin Herbert in 2020 and trade Daniel Jones at the trade deadline in 2020. DJ is now 22-38-1 as a starter and will be remembered as the worst quarterback in NFL history to ever play the position with fifty or more starts. Everything else is just delusion, denial and self-preservation.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
I felt similarly. Top picks in the lottery should have special physical tools; and you hope you can teach the thinking/process part.
Because no one - expert or novice - has a clue about a prospect's brain and how they will process and adapt to the NFL style. That's impossible in my book. And the art of the drafting...
I would say it was 50/50, Stroud vs. Young. And you are right about the negative view on Stroud, but that was mostly due to the previous OSU QBs that failed (Fields, Haskins).
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Terps is right. It isn’t the end of the world if you miss on a QB, even though it’s obviously not ideal. Where we fucked up is not recognizing Jones isn’t the answer and moving on. It’s almost as if there are people inside 1925 Giants Way who are arrogant enough to think they are going to prove everyone wrong and that Jones is going to blossom into an elite quarterback.
The crazy thing with Jones is that he has been viewed as a reach since day 1. It’s not like Young who people thought was at worst the second pick in the draft. He won the MVP of the Senior Bowl and the front office lost their minds over him. The top prospects at QB are typically not competing at the Senior Bowl because they don’t want to risk getting injured.
Also the game itself is a joke. The Senior Bowl practices are what really matters, and Jones was bad in them. Gettleman, et al., were too stupid to know that apparently.
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In comment 16612745 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pitt did not rebuild for cheap. Neither QB is under contract for next season. Let’s see what it costs them to resign Fields or Wilson this offseason. Tip of the cap for moving on from Pickett quickly, but they have not solved their QB problem long term.
They put themselves in a position to have options. If they want to spend big money on Fields, they can. If they want to draft someone instead, they can.
They haven't solved it long term, but they solved it this year.
How have tehy solved it this year. Fields first two games: 30/43 and avergaing 136 yards. They scored an average of 15.5 points. If this were the Giants, you'd be screaming (rightfully) that the Gimnats are winning despite Jones and Jones is just riding the defenses coattails. C'mon, Pittsburgh absolutely has not solved their QB situation this season. They have a great defense again. And there season will be sabotaged despite that great defense because of subpar QB play. Again.
Pittsburgh has done a lot right over the years as far as building a great, hardnosed defense. Fixing the QB position is not one of them
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In comment 16612745 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
That's a valid point. I don't know whether Pittsburgh signed any FAs with the money but point made.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
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I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
+1. Bandwagon and the Alabama drum beaters hype.
Alabama players do get overhyped, but scouts did like his ability to extend plays while keeping his options open. He also demonstrated feel for the pass rush in college. The issues with Stroud centered more on how was he different than Haskins. Both were playing for teams that every week had superior talent to their opponent especially on the OL and had a WR corps where every player was a D1 starter. To spread the field with that you didn’t require the QB to make many reads.
LoL, no freakin way. Bryce Young is a name and nothing more.
Yeah, that story definitely got out into there to Tepper's dislike. In fact, rumor has it that Mrs. Tepper chimed in with her opinion and how she really like Young (I'm not kidding).
So, when Reich wouldn't tow the Tepper Company line and get Young up to the level of Stroud, Reich was a dead man walking.
You cannot put a guy like that out on the field. It's too destructive. It's still possible that he could be OK in a different environment. But I wouldn't give up more than a 7th round pick for him. I know how bad Carolina is, It's still possible that he's not even a 3rd string NFL QB.
Daniel Jones never did a single thing "infinitely better" than anyone. Kenny Pickett has a 14-10 record as a starter over his first two years. And the absolute right thing to do for the Steelers was to move on from him as he is not an elite talent in the NFL. And neither is Daniel Jones. DJ had a 3-9 record as a starter his rookie year, having a couple of good games against REALLY BAD teams. The absolute right thing to do was draft Justin Herbert in 2020 and trade Daniel Jones at the trade deadline in 2020. DJ is now 22-38-1 as a starter and will be remembered as the worst quarterback in NFL history to ever play the position with fifty or more starts. Everything else is just delusion, denial and self-preservation.
Oh stop it. You guys get so silly with your Daniel Jones hate. Pickett has 24 career starts. Young has 18. Daniel Jones, who BBI reminds me never throws TDs, had more than double the amount of TDs through his first 24 starts compared to Pickett and more than double the amount of TDs Bryce Young had in his first 18 starts. Pickett had one 300 yard passing game in his career, a game the Steelers lost by 30+ points. Daniel Jones had a 300 yard passing game in his first NFL start.
Neither Pickett nor Young showed a single thing as rookies or in their second seasons that would lead anyone to believe that they could be NFL starters. Bringing up Pickett’s record is so ridiculous, lest you think Justin Fields is the reason the Steelers are 2-0 right now and not the defense allowing 8 points per game.
The Giants will move on from Jones after this season, but the idea that he was the same as Pickett or Bryce Young is asinine.
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
So true. Pitt has found ways to compete the last few years when most teams would finally crumble and endure many losing seasons. Not Pitt. I know their fan base is angry and frustrated but at least they fucking win some games. No less than 9 wins per the last 3 seasons. That’s a golden age compared to this shit.
Its bot a franchise killer if your organization recognizes they made a mistake and instead of trying to make something work that cant they move on.
Franchise killers are taking a RB #2 when you are no where near winning and need a QB. That decision set in motion the shit show we have now.
Young is a talented QB who was virtually the consensus top pick. If you want to defend the Giants taking Thibs and Neal where they did because everyone agreed they were top prospects, you have to apply the same logic to the Panthers. They did the same thing, with similar results.
Sometimes top prospects don’t reach their potential for a number of reasons we may not know about. But Young obviously busting because he is small is just a stupid argument to make.
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
Its bot a franchise killer if your organization recognizes they made a mistake and instead of trying to make something work that cant they move on.
Franchise killers are taking a RB #2 when you are no where near winning and need a QB. That decision set in motion the shit show we have now.
I don't know how you can call taking an RB at 2 a franchise killer but not the wrong QB. Both set a franchise back because you have an oppostunity for a franchiose altering player but waste it.
If Carolina had picked Stroud, they'd be set at QB for the next decade and subsequent drafts are about filling in the holes around him. That's a killer for a franchise. Now even assuming they pick the right QB in this draft, you're at least 4-5 years behind from where you should have been
This is looking like a reboot situation somewhere else.
If the quarterback can't function in the offense, you're hurting the development of the other players. A team can't operate in the service of a QB no matter how high he was drafted.
I never spent one second worried that if Jones wasn't playing for the Giants because he was benched or if they gave up on him after two seasons and he was sent away to another team, that we'd be missing him and he'd flourish elsewhere.
Maybe Carolina has the same confidence in Young that I do in Jones? Which is none.
/s...only half