that's a wow. i doubt they trade him in-season but id be all over trying to buy him on the cheap in the offseason.
Throw an offer their way that is similar to the Fields/Pitt trade and Im on board. Cost controlled for another 2-3 years and time to sit and learn the system.
exactly. buy low, grab an insurance vet, and then add draft pick is the all of above approach.
Stroud at the moment appears to be the better player/prospect. But as others have said, that org is pretty toxic, so who knows what Stroud would look like in Carolina.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Agree. Take a shot, move on in the rookie deal if necessary, and take another shot. The mistake is not being willing to admit the mistake.
Young is the best playmaker at the quarterback position in the draft class. He can get you a bucket. Young earned a 92.2 grade in 2021 when he won the Heisman, and he followed it up with a 91.5 in 2022.
They're doing exactly what they're supposed to do; move on. Now the harder cases are those where the player has flashed real talent. In those instances, your window might be three years rather than 1 and a quarter. But the single biggest mistake you can make is wishful thinking. We should've moved on from Jones after his second year. We should've picked Justin Herbert.
I’d consider trading for him. His cap number would not prohibit you from taking another QB high in next years draft if you don’t like what you see. If he looks decent it opens up a world of possibilities with a high pick next season. His cap hit for this year is $8.6M, goes up to just over $10M next season.
I’m not sure the Panthers are necessarily giving up on him yet though.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pickett was a late 1st round pick which didn't involve trading multiple 1st round and more picks to acquire. Simply a later 1st round bust. Not nearly the same
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pitt did not rebuild for cheap. Neither QB is under contract for next season. Let’s see what it costs them to resign Fields or Wilson this offseason. Tip of the cap for moving on from Pickett quickly, but they have not solved their QB problem long term.
They put themselves in a position to have options. If they want to spend big money on Fields, they can. If they want to draft someone instead, they can.
They haven't solved it long term, but they solved it this year.
I completely agree with you. But if Fields plays well this year after being horrendous his first 3 years, do you give him a massive contract that we all know he will be seeking? How would that be different than what NYG did with DJ? You can franchise him and risk a hold out or be in the same spot a year later. I think when you are year to year with a QB, you are not in a good place.
As for NYG, we all know where we are headed. So yesterday's result was actually a good outcome from my perspective. They lost, we saw a couple of rookies play well, we saw an O- Line play well, and they are that much closer to being in a strong position to draft the next QB.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pickett was a late 1st round pick which didn't involve trading multiple 1st round and more picks to acquire. Simply a later 1st round bust. Not nearly the same
You're right that a #1 overall pick busting hurts worse than a mid/late 1st round pick busting does. But that's because of the value of that pick, not because they used it on a QB.
For example, Trent Richardson busting as the #3 overall pick was no less of a wasted opportunity than Sam Darnold busting in the same draft slot a few years later. And that's all the busted pick actually is: a wasted opportunity. Gone are the days of an albatross contract attached to a highly drafted QB. Now a rookie QB costs exactly the same as any other position, defined entirely by what slot he's drafted in.
I never understood the hype with this guy. He's an unimpressive QB who was surrounded by NFL players playing against college guys at Alabama.
Bryce Young Alabama CMP% - 65.8%
Mac Jones Alabama CMP% - 74.3
That right there should've been a big red flag that this guy isn't all that.
totally misses the context of the situations they were each in.
after williams/metchie got hurt/left bryce young had nobody to throw to. mac jones in his 1 year as starter was throwing almost exclusively to first round picks and/or future pro bowlers (devonta, waddle, metchie, najee harris were his 4 leading receivers).
mac's team averaged 48 ppg with their 3 first rounders devonta/waddle/najee scoring most of those tds.
bryce's teams dropped in 2021/2022 to 40/41 ppg respectively but the 2022 team in particular had nothing. his leading receiver was jermaine burton. actually it was his rb gibbs, which shows how little they had a WR.
For him. He might suck but 3rd rounders suck all the time and do does our backup..
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
For him. He might suck but 3rd rounders suck all the time and do does our backup..
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
It's been 2 games. Even the worse case scenario for young (completely sucks this year and Daboll gets a chance to see what he can do with someone other than DJ. Plus it allows us to evaluate Daboll.) in this worst case scenario we also ensure that DJ can be dropped and we don't have to worry about DJ's injury guarantee. I think all that is easily worth 3rd round pick.
Seems pretty clear what that Steelers are attempted to do and that is be like the Steelers again. Look at the OL investments they made this offseason. Heck of a running game to start the season.
Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
It was evident almost immediately that Young wasn't going to be successful in this league. But I am very surprised that Tepper is willing to acknowledge the mistake and move on. It can't be easy knowing that he traded up for the opportunity to pass on CJ Stroud and take Bryce Young. Good for Tepper and good for Carolina Panther fans.
As others have mentioned, this is the right approach - fast failure until the elite guy wins the job through a meritocratic process. No full bloom love scholarships. Hopefully John Mara is paying attention and will add this to his experiential learning process.
Please don’t tell me you are a Jones hater…because if you are and yet say you will line up to acquire the horrible munchkin, something is amiss with your cognitive skills.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
If I can speak for Terps, he isn't saying Pittsburgh is winning because of their QB situation.
He's saying they were right to jettison Pickens and, for now, go cheap with Wilson and Fields. And tread water until they can figure out their long-term solution.
Big credit to the coaching staff for finding a winning formula for now. Ball control, a few big passing plays, great defense and tremendous coaching.
But I don't think this approach is sustainable. They will need better answers eventually.
Watching him play you would think he was an undrafted free agent and not the number one pick overall . I think he is a step down from Daniel Jones. Think about that.....lol
They're doing exactly what they're supposed to do; move on. Now the harder cases are those where the player has flashed real talent. In those instances, your window might be three years rather than 1 and a quarter. But the single biggest mistake you can make is wishful thinking. We should've moved on from Jones after his second year. We should've picked Justin Herbert.
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
RE: RE: Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
RE: RE: RE: Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
They absolutely would NOT have.
But even using your argument, how about Mitch Trubisky? What was materially different about Trubisky's performance vs. Jones's during each of their respective rookie contracts?
RE: RE: So they swung and missed on a top QB pick.
They're doing exactly what they're supposed to do; move on. Now the harder cases are those where the player has flashed real talent. In those instances, your window might be three years rather than 1 and a quarter. But the single biggest mistake you can make is wishful thinking. We should've moved on from Jones after his second year. We should've picked Justin Herbert.
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
Here we go again with "second best year ever for a rookie QB."
It's not based on anything, but keep repeating it. Make sure you don't mention the 19 fumbles and 12 interceptions or the fact that that "second best year ever for a rookie QB" only really came down to four good games.
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
...SUMMARY: A two-year starter at Alabama, Young thrived in offensive coordinator Bill O’Brien’s pro-style spread attack, becoming the first quarterback in school
history to win the Heisman Trophy. The first Alabama player to throw for 3,000-plus yards in separate seasons, he set the single-season school records for passing
yards (4,872) and touchdowns (47), while finishing his career No. 2 in passing yards (8,356) and passing touchdowns (80). A point guard on the football field with his
rare vision and spatial awareness, Young plays with impressive body rhythm and controlled urgency with his mind, feet and release. Although some of his magic acts
will be tough to replicate in the NFL and will lead to durability concerns, he has a sixth sense for pressure and the crafty reaction skills to improvise, buy time and
create off-script. Overall, Young is a size outlier (he will be the smallest quarterback in the NFL the moment he is drafted) with average arm power, but he is a
natural passer with an instinctive feel for throw location and play extension. Despite limited physical traits, he has the high-end intangibles and talent required to
be an impact starter...
PFF?
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1. Bryce Young, Alabama
BIG BOARD RANK: 1
Young is the best playmaker at the quarterback position in the draft class. He can get you a bucket. Young earned a 92.2 grade in 2021 when he won the Heisman, and he followed it up with a 91.5 in 2022.
Walter Football?
too much to type, #1 ranked QB in the 2023 draft.
Mel Kiper?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
Lance Zierlein?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
who else is there? i don't know.
But most had Young as the #1 QB and #1 pick in the 2023 draft.
but now, the BBI experts all knew he wouldn't be good.
lol.
RE: RE: RE: Giving people flowers for moving on from QBs who’ve never
played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
Daniel Jones never did a single thing "infinitely better" than anyone. Kenny Pickett has a 14-10 record as a starter over his first two years. And the absolute right thing to do for the Steelers was to move on from him as he is not an elite talent in the NFL. And neither is Daniel Jones. DJ had a 3-9 record as a starter his rookie year, having a couple of good games against REALLY BAD teams. The absolute right thing to do was draft Justin Herbert in 2020 and trade Daniel Jones at the trade deadline in 2020. DJ is now 22-38-1 as a starter and will be remembered as the worst quarterback in NFL history to ever play the position with fifty or more starts. Everything else is just delusion, denial and self-preservation.
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
I felt similarly. Top picks in the lottery should have special physical tools; and you hope you can teach the thinking/process part.
Because no one - expert or novice - has a clue about a prospect's brain and how they will process and adapt to the NFL style. That's impossible in my book. And the art of the drafting...
the actual opinions on Young on here pre-draft, I am sure someone can dig them up, but I do remember so many people were convinced Stroud would fail in the pros and he was just a product of a great team in college.
I would say it was 50/50, Stroud vs. Young. And you are right about the negative view on Stroud, but that was mostly due to the previous OSU QBs that failed (Fields, Haskins).
Terps is right. It isn’t the end of the world if you miss on a QB, even though it’s obviously not ideal. Where we fucked up is not recognizing Jones isn’t the answer and moving on. It’s almost as if there are people inside 1925 Giants Way who are arrogant enough to think they are going to prove everyone wrong and that Jones is going to blossom into an elite quarterback.
The crazy thing with Jones is that he has been viewed as a reach since day 1. It’s not like Young who people thought was at worst the second pick in the draft. He won the MVP of the Senior Bowl and the front office lost their minds over him. The top prospects at QB are typically not competing at the Senior Bowl because they don’t want to risk getting injured.
Also the game itself is a joke. The Senior Bowl practices are what really matters, and Jones was bad in them. Gettleman, et al., were too stupid to know that apparently.
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pitt did not rebuild for cheap. Neither QB is under contract for next season. Let’s see what it costs them to resign Fields or Wilson this offseason. Tip of the cap for moving on from Pickett quickly, but they have not solved their QB problem long term.
They put themselves in a position to have options. If they want to spend big money on Fields, they can. If they want to draft someone instead, they can.
They haven't solved it long term, but they solved it this year.
How have tehy solved it this year. Fields first two games: 30/43 and avergaing 136 yards. They scored an average of 15.5 points. If this were the Giants, you'd be screaming (rightfully) that the Gimnats are winning despite Jones and Jones is just riding the defenses coattails. C'mon, Pittsburgh absolutely has not solved their QB situation this season. They have a great defense again. And there season will be sabotaged despite that great defense because of subpar QB play. Again.
Pittsburgh has done a lot right over the years as far as building a great, hardnosed defense. Fixing the QB position is not one of them
A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
That's a valid point. I don't know whether Pittsburgh signed any FAs with the money but point made.
RE: Don't throw your rotten eggs and tomatoes all at the same time
But I think the clock is also starting to tick on Trevor Lawrence. It's year 4, and he hasn't shown marked improvement. Unless you're John Mara, how long is too long?
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
+1. Bandwagon and the Alabama drum beaters hype.
Alabama players do get overhyped, but scouts did like his ability to extend plays while keeping his options open. He also demonstrated feel for the pass rush in college. The issues with Stroud centered more on how was he different than Haskins. Both were playing for teams that every week had superior talent to their opponent especially on the OL and had a WR corps where every player was a D1 starter. To spread the field with that you didn’t require the QB to make many reads.
Neighbor is pretty friendly with someone who works for the Panthers and apparently Reich and the football people were banging the table pretty hard for Stroud, but Tepper wanted Young and ownership won in the end. I think that was the beginning of the end for Frank in Charlotte.
Neighbor is pretty friendly with someone who works for the Panthers and apparently Reich and the football people were banging the table pretty hard for Stroud, but Tepper wanted Young and ownership won in the end. I think that was the beginning of the end for Frank in Charlotte.
Yeah, that story definitely got out into there to Tepper's dislike. In fact, rumor has it that Mrs. Tepper chimed in with her opinion and how she really like Young (I'm not kidding).
So, when Reich wouldn't tow the Tepper Company line and get Young up to the level of Stroud, Reich was a dead man walking.
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that's a wow. i doubt they trade him in-season but id be all over trying to buy him on the cheap in the offseason.
Throw an offer their way that is similar to the Fields/Pitt trade and Im on board. Cost controlled for another 2-3 years and time to sit and learn the system.
exactly. buy low, grab an insurance vet, and then add draft pick is the all of above approach.
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They should have taken Stroud.
What makes you say that?
Stroud at the moment appears to be the better player/prospect. But as others have said, that org is pretty toxic, so who knows what Stroud would look like in Carolina.
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Agree. Take a shot, move on in the rookie deal if necessary, and take another shot. The mistake is not being willing to admit the mistake.
1. Bryce Young, Alabama
BIG BOARD RANK: 1
Young is the best playmaker at the quarterback position in the draft class. He can get you a bucket. Young earned a 92.2 grade in 2021 when he won the Heisman, and he followed it up with a 91.5 in 2022.
Darnold's unexpectedly great start might be just what 1925 Giants Way needs to further stick with Jones.
I’m not sure the Panthers are necessarily giving up on him yet though.
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Darnold and Baker were awful there also. A lot of it is the organization/coaching.
Darnold's unexpectedly great start might be just what 1925 Giants Way needs to further stick with Jones.
Don’t say things like that, they could come true.
I actually wanted him as a back up for Jones in like 2020 or 2021 lol
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pickett was a late 1st round pick which didn't involve trading multiple 1st round and more picks to acquire. Simply a later 1st round bust. Not nearly the same
Bryce Young Alabama CMP% - 65.8%
Mac Jones Alabama CMP% - 74.3
That right there should've been a big red flag that this guy isn't all that.
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In comment 16612745 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pitt did not rebuild for cheap. Neither QB is under contract for next season. Let’s see what it costs them to resign Fields or Wilson this offseason. Tip of the cap for moving on from Pickett quickly, but they have not solved their QB problem long term.
They put themselves in a position to have options. If they want to spend big money on Fields, they can. If they want to draft someone instead, they can.
They haven't solved it long term, but they solved it this year.
I completely agree with you. But if Fields plays well this year after being horrendous his first 3 years, do you give him a massive contract that we all know he will be seeking? How would that be different than what NYG did with DJ? You can franchise him and risk a hold out or be in the same spot a year later. I think when you are year to year with a QB, you are not in a good place.
As for NYG, we all know where we are headed. So yesterday's result was actually a good outcome from my perspective. They lost, we saw a couple of rookies play well, we saw an O- Line play well, and they are that much closer to being in a strong position to draft the next QB.
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pickett was a late 1st round pick which didn't involve trading multiple 1st round and more picks to acquire. Simply a later 1st round bust. Not nearly the same
You're right that a #1 overall pick busting hurts worse than a mid/late 1st round pick busting does. But that's because of the value of that pick, not because they used it on a QB.
For example, Trent Richardson busting as the #3 overall pick was no less of a wasted opportunity than Sam Darnold busting in the same draft slot a few years later. And that's all the busted pick actually is: a wasted opportunity. Gone are the days of an albatross contract attached to a highly drafted QB. Now a rookie QB costs exactly the same as any other position, defined entirely by what slot he's drafted in.
Bryce Young Alabama CMP% - 65.8%
Mac Jones Alabama CMP% - 74.3
That right there should've been a big red flag that this guy isn't all that.
totally misses the context of the situations they were each in.
after williams/metchie got hurt/left bryce young had nobody to throw to. mac jones in his 1 year as starter was throwing almost exclusively to first round picks and/or future pro bowlers (devonta, waddle, metchie, najee harris were his 4 leading receivers).
mac's team averaged 48 ppg with their 3 first rounders devonta/waddle/najee scoring most of those tds.
bryce's teams dropped in 2021/2022 to 40/41 ppg respectively but the 2022 team in particular had nothing. his leading receiver was jermaine burton. actually it was his rb gibbs, which shows how little they had a WR.
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
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For him. He might suck but 3rd rounders suck all the time and do does our backup..
Dru Phillips looks the part... third rounders shouldn't be looked at as throwaway picks. Especially considering how deep some of the recent drafts have been at certain positions.
It's been 2 games. Even the worse case scenario for young (completely sucks this year and Daboll gets a chance to see what he can do with someone other than DJ. Plus it allows us to evaluate Daboll.) in this worst case scenario we also ensure that DJ can be dropped and we don't have to worry about DJ's injury guarantee. I think all that is easily worth 3rd round pick.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
As others have mentioned, this is the right approach - fast failure until the elite guy wins the job through a meritocratic process. No full bloom love scholarships. Hopefully John Mara is paying attention and will add this to his experiential learning process.
It is very realistic they will be in market for a new QB. TBH since Jones is from there, he could wind up there competing.
Carolina is the worst team right now, and we are 2nd worst I think.
Who is the QB then?
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
If I can speak for Terps, he isn't saying Pittsburgh is winning because of their QB situation.
He's saying they were right to jettison Pickens and, for now, go cheap with Wilson and Fields. And tread water until they can figure out their long-term solution.
Big credit to the coaching staff for finding a winning formula for now. Ball control, a few big passing plays, great defense and tremendous coaching.
But I don't think this approach is sustainable. They will need better answers eventually.
I wonder what the cap implications look like if we traded Lock for Young and a draft pick.
We know Jones isn’t the answer. And we know the rest of the QB room isn’t either.
Why not take a chance with the consensus #1 pick last year (Yes we all know how well CJ is playing )
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
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played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
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In comment 16612905 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
They absolutely would NOT have.
But even using your argument, how about Mitch Trubisky? What was materially different about Trubisky's performance vs. Jones's during each of their respective rookie contracts?
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They're doing exactly what they're supposed to do; move on. Now the harder cases are those where the player has flashed real talent. In those instances, your window might be three years rather than 1 and a quarter. But the single biggest mistake you can make is wishful thinking. We should've moved on from Jones after his second year. We should've picked Justin Herbert.
There was no way after Jones had the second best year ever for a rookie QB that any team would have dumped him and drafted another QB with the 4th pick, not to mention they wouldn't have a left tackle if they had done that. When the Cardinals did it, Rosen had had a bad rookie year AND they had just hired a new coach who wanted an offense in which Rosen didn't fit but Murray did.
Here we go again with "second best year ever for a rookie QB."
It's not based on anything, but keep repeating it. Make sure you don't mention the 19 fumbles and 12 interceptions or the fact that that "second best year ever for a rookie QB" only really came down to four good games.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
history to win the Heisman Trophy. The first Alabama player to throw for 3,000-plus yards in separate seasons, he set the single-season school records for passing
yards (4,872) and touchdowns (47), while finishing his career No. 2 in passing yards (8,356) and passing touchdowns (80). A point guard on the football field with his
rare vision and spatial awareness, Young plays with impressive body rhythm and controlled urgency with his mind, feet and release. Although some of his magic acts
will be tough to replicate in the NFL and will lead to durability concerns, he has a sixth sense for pressure and the crafty reaction skills to improvise, buy time and
create off-script. Overall, Young is a size outlier (he will be the smallest quarterback in the NFL the moment he is drafted) with average arm power, but he is a
natural passer with an instinctive feel for throw location and play extension. Despite limited physical traits, he has the high-end intangibles and talent required to
be an impact starter...
PFF?
BIG BOARD RANK: 1
Young is the best playmaker at the quarterback position in the draft class. He can get you a bucket. Young earned a 92.2 grade in 2021 when he won the Heisman, and he followed it up with a 91.5 in 2022.
Walter Football?
too much to type, #1 ranked QB in the 2023 draft.
Mel Kiper?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
Lance Zierlein?
#1 QB in the 2023 draft
who else is there? i don't know.
But most had Young as the #1 QB and #1 pick in the 2023 draft.
but now, the BBI experts all knew he wouldn't be good.
lol.
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In comment 16612905 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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played one good game in their careers is a bit much.
In the same time period DJ has only had 1 good half. And DJ has actually been worse. Yet we haven't moved away from him.
Don’t be disingenuous. That’s not the comparison being made here. The issue is how quickly a team moves off of a QB they selected high in a recent draft. Daniel Jones’ first career start was infinitely better than anything Bryce Young, Kenny Pickett, or Josh Rosen ever did. It doesn’t take a lot of fortitude to move on from people who’ve done absolutely nothing.
If Daniel Jones looked the way Bryce Young did as a rookie, the Giants would’ve drafted a QB with their first pick the following season.
Daniel Jones never did a single thing "infinitely better" than anyone. Kenny Pickett has a 14-10 record as a starter over his first two years. And the absolute right thing to do for the Steelers was to move on from him as he is not an elite talent in the NFL. And neither is Daniel Jones. DJ had a 3-9 record as a starter his rookie year, having a couple of good games against REALLY BAD teams. The absolute right thing to do was draft Justin Herbert in 2020 and trade Daniel Jones at the trade deadline in 2020. DJ is now 22-38-1 as a starter and will be remembered as the worst quarterback in NFL history to ever play the position with fifty or more starts. Everything else is just delusion, denial and self-preservation.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
I felt similarly. Top picks in the lottery should have special physical tools; and you hope you can teach the thinking/process part.
Because no one - expert or novice - has a clue about a prospect's brain and how they will process and adapt to the NFL style. That's impossible in my book. And the art of the drafting...
I would say it was 50/50, Stroud vs. Young. And you are right about the negative view on Stroud, but that was mostly due to the previous OSU QBs that failed (Fields, Haskins).
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Terps is right. It isn’t the end of the world if you miss on a QB, even though it’s obviously not ideal. Where we fucked up is not recognizing Jones isn’t the answer and moving on. It’s almost as if there are people inside 1925 Giants Way who are arrogant enough to think they are going to prove everyone wrong and that Jones is going to blossom into an elite quarterback.
The crazy thing with Jones is that he has been viewed as a reach since day 1. It’s not like Young who people thought was at worst the second pick in the draft. He won the MVP of the Senior Bowl and the front office lost their minds over him. The top prospects at QB are typically not competing at the Senior Bowl because they don’t want to risk getting injured.
Also the game itself is a joke. The Senior Bowl practices are what really matters, and Jones was bad in them. Gettleman, et al., were too stupid to know that apparently.
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In comment 16612745 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pitt did not rebuild for cheap. Neither QB is under contract for next season. Let’s see what it costs them to resign Fields or Wilson this offseason. Tip of the cap for moving on from Pickett quickly, but they have not solved their QB problem long term.
They put themselves in a position to have options. If they want to spend big money on Fields, they can. If they want to draft someone instead, they can.
They haven't solved it long term, but they solved it this year.
How have tehy solved it this year. Fields first two games: 30/43 and avergaing 136 yards. They scored an average of 15.5 points. If this were the Giants, you'd be screaming (rightfully) that the Gimnats are winning despite Jones and Jones is just riding the defenses coattails. C'mon, Pittsburgh absolutely has not solved their QB situation this season. They have a great defense again. And there season will be sabotaged despite that great defense because of subpar QB play. Again.
Pittsburgh has done a lot right over the years as far as building a great, hardnosed defense. Fixing the QB position is not one of them
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In comment 16612745 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16612716 GiantsMakeMeDrink said:
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A QB with the top pick. It’s a franchise killer when those qb’s suck. Guess we will be competing against the panthers for a qb in the draft next year
It's only a franchise killer if the franchise lets it kill them. There is nothing stopping a team from drafting another quarterback. What Arizona did with Murray/Rosen should be instructional to everyone.
I'll tell you another team that gets it: Pittsburgh. Did drafting Pickett kill them? Nope. They traded him after two seasons and rebuilt their QB room for cheap. For everyone that asks the question "What options did Schoen have?", just look at Pittsburgh.
Pittsburg's success has nothing to do with how they re-built their QB Room. They've scored 13 nand 18 points. Fields was 13-20 for 117 yards yesterday.
The reason they are winning is because they've got a great defense so they're doing it in spite of the QBs they brought in, not because of.
So if you want to take anything from Pittsbirgh's success not just this year but in year's past it's build a great D. If they had actually made the right QB decisions they'd have had much more success
Even allowing for all of that "yeah but" noise, how much is Pittsburgh paying for their entire QB position group? $5.6M in 2024 salary cap value. Compare that to how much the Giants are allocating against the cap for their QB position in 2024: $53.8M. Are the Giants getting 10x superior QB play for their 10x more expensive QB position group? Do you think they might be able to add to their defense if they had an extra $48M in cap room to play with?
That's a valid point. I don't know whether Pittsburgh signed any FAs with the money but point made.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
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I won't pretend that I knew Stroud was going to be as good as he is. I bought into that S2 score nonsense at the time.
But Young was small, not fast, and didn't have a great arm. OK, maybe he processes pretty well and is accurate, but traditionally that profile goes much later in the draft because the ceiling isn't there.
+1. Bandwagon and the Alabama drum beaters hype.
Alabama players do get overhyped, but scouts did like his ability to extend plays while keeping his options open. He also demonstrated feel for the pass rush in college. The issues with Stroud centered more on how was he different than Haskins. Both were playing for teams that every week had superior talent to their opponent especially on the OL and had a WR corps where every player was a D1 starter. To spread the field with that you didn’t require the QB to make many reads.
LoL, no freakin way. Bryce Young is a name and nothing more.
Yeah, that story definitely got out into there to Tepper's dislike. In fact, rumor has it that Mrs. Tepper chimed in with her opinion and how she really like Young (I'm not kidding).
So, when Reich wouldn't tow the Tepper Company line and get Young up to the level of Stroud, Reich was a dead man walking.