This is something that I've often found curious when people talk about the NYG ownership. The Steelers do things right, they are always competitive. Their minimum threshold has been .500 and they are 2-0 again this year. Yet, they are also family run:
Arthur Rooney II, President
Arthur Rooney Jr, Vice President
Dan Rooney Jr, Vice President of Player Personnel (reports to the GM, Omar Kahn)
That's not unlike the Giants. Yet, the Steelers are solid as a rock. What's the difference?
I honestly think Mara wants to find his Mike Tomlin. The Steelers hired Tomlin who no one expected at the time when he was very young. It's going on 17 years now with Tomlin. This was behind the McAdoo and Judge hires imo. The hope to find someone who can coach for the next 15 years. I think Shurmur was an over correction to McAdoo. And Daboll was Mara letting his GM make the hire.
My point is, he's tried. He just hasn't gotten it right. So why is that? Why is it that Pittsburgh does get it right with a similar ownership structure.
I'm honestly curious. I get it's easy to just say Mara sucks. But, I believe what Connor Hughes says, he wants to win. The Steelers and Cowboys also want to win, they are both also family businesses. But, NYG has just fallen so far behind.
The Steelers and Cowboys are good at it.
The Giants haven’t built and fielded a great unit since 2016 and that lasted one year. It would have lasted longer if they actually vetted and knew wtf mcadoo was but they fell In love with that 14-15 Eli Beckham offense. They failed to see that it was coughin and Eli that were the catalysts. Mcadoo was a turkey.
They spread the wealth instead of focusing on building a dominant unit. I use the term wealth loosely….
Mara meddles in football decisions. he gives quotes to the media that actually make the jobs of his GM and coach harder. “we’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up” is essentially throwing your entire org under the bus in favor of one player. it’s mind boggling.
when Rooney gives a quote it’s something innocuous like this:
Rooney quote re Steelers playoff drought - ( New Window )
Kevin Colbert was hired in 2000. retired in 2022.
So Rooney pretty much always had a HOF level leader on hand in 1 of the 2 positions to lean on. Also had Big Ben in prime age when he made his coaching transition, which no doubt helped the coach to start with a HOF QB.
Jerry Reese should have been the bridge guy for us, but instead he not only helped get the Coughlin transition wrong but made a mess in his own roster construction which made it harder for Coughlin's successors. As did Eli being at the end.
I didnt follow it closely at the time but looking back when Cowher retired, it appears the Steelers HC search had some parallels with the Giants post coughlin. They interviewed 2 coaches from the prior staff - OC Ken Wisenhunt and OL coach Russ Grimm just as the Giants did with McAdoo and Spags. From the outside they interviewed Ron Rivera (Bears DC at the time I think) and Tomlin who was 35 years old and only been a DC for 1 year.
Wisenhunt was offered the Arizona job before the Steelers process concluded and Pittsburgh let him go instead of rushing their process (as Giants did with Mcadoo).
Grimm thought he was going to get the job and when he didn't he left the org.
Rivera was probably considered the favorite and he supposedly interviewed well but ultimately they were blown away by Tomlin. Maybe he was that good and would have succeeded no matter what but if Tomlin didn't have a prime aged Ben and consistently strong defensive rosters from Colbert his job would have no doubt been harder.
Mara meddles in football decisions. he gives quotes to the media that actually make the jobs of his GM and coach harder. “we’ve done everything possible to screw this kid up” is essentially throwing your entire org under the bus in favor of one player. it’s mind boggling.
when Rooney gives a quote it’s something innocuous like this: Rooney quote re Steelers playoff drought - ( New Window )
I'm pretty sure Rooney hired his head coaches directly just as mara did, he just chose a lot better.
Mara has to be involved. Rooney is smart enough to leave the football to the football people.
* Head Coach consistency. It's not just random that long-term coaches are more successful. From 1969 to today, the Steelers have had THREE head coaches. The Giants are on their 14th head coach in the same time period. It's self-selecting a bit (why would you get rid of a coach that was winning). But the turnover of coaching staff has to be pretty disruptive to a team.
* Luck. The Giants had some big swings and hits (Eli trade, signing Plaxico, O-Line in the 2000s) and some major whiffs (O-Line for the past 10 years, Golladay, Toney, et al). The Steelers don't seem to have the same highs and lows in their risk-taking.
* Floor. The Steelers haven't had a losing season with Tomlin as HC, but they haven't had a playoff win since 2016. Even after Ben R was washed up and they played QB carousel for a while, they had at least a .500 football team. The Giants floor, to say the least, has been much lower.
* QB Situation. After the Big Ben era, the Steelers have tried Duck Hodges, Mason Rudolph, Kenny Pickett, Mitch Trubisky and now Justin Fields as starters. Russ Wilson is on the bench ready to start. Any one of those QBs, if they had worked out, could have been the QB of the Future. For whatever reason, the Giants put their eggs in the D Jones basket and haven't really given any other players a chance to be the long-term starting QB.
I know this is rambling, but the comparison of the franchises is really interesting to me. We should ask the actress Rooney Mara her thoughts about it.
Mara has to be involved. Rooney is smart enough to leave the football to the football people.
i think there's a distinction in here.
my personal belief is that any mara-meddling or influencing on personnel matters is the fault of the meddled GM/coach, not Mara.
If a big decision is wrong, Mara doesn't get fired, they do. They keep their jobs by getting decisions right.
If you are a subject matter expert in a leadership position being forced to do something you disagree with, against the interest of the organization, you either stand up to it or you wear it whatever comes. Brian Flores didn't go along with Stephen Ross' tanking missive or boat party. Belichick's most famous decision before he was considered the GOAT was Brady/Bledsoe. And before that when he felt like he was going to be micro managed by Parcells with the Jets he made the courageous decision to resign at his own press conference! Sean Payton didnt ask for permission to cut Russ, he said he was doing it. Id imagine every great HC has had similar things happen.
also we all agree Mara is a wet noodle right? In what world do we think he's standing his ground and not backing down to someone standing their ground to do their job? or that someone who can get bullied by mara has what it takes in the first place?
the only thing i can recall that runs counter to everything i wrote above was when Mara supposedly demanded that Coughlin make changes on his staff that he was firmly resisting in 2007. which ironically led to spags and the 2008 SB but i think that was more of a broken clock being right twice a day.
Since then they have been flawless in their choice of coach and their ability to stay out of the way.
Their teams are solid year in and year out. Are they truly drafting better players? Maybe. But I think Tomlin and his staff are bringing guys in and elevating their on the field performance.
Daboll and this staff haven't been able to do that.
It’s true we’ve sucked for about a decade, but these last years of futility followed a decade where we were near the top of the sport, below the Pats, but just about right there with anyone else.
Under John Mara’s leadership this franchise has 2 Super Bowl victories and the Giants overall franchise championship resume is near the top of the sport. The end of the Coughlin era was tough, but I think after the year TC had in 2015 it was just time. Even though it’s been rough since. I think Mara’s heart in the right place, I think he’s tried just about everything over the last few years to get it right. He went the “Giant way” with Gettleman and it backfired terribly. But before you completely dismiss his logic, he made a similar choice moving from Accorsi to Reese and he hit a home run. After it was clear Gettleman and Shurmur were failing, he went completely outside the box for Judge (especially when everyone here was figuring he would pencil in Garrett for HC) and I think many here, myself included, thought we had something in Judge.
The truth is Mara fired just about all of these guys before we ever thought he would. And yes, I believe that by the time Gettleman was sent off, he was virtually powerless. I think DG getting sick with cancer on the job had something to do with him sticking around a little longer than he might have otherwise, but that’s just my opinion.
I also think that in sports, sometimes timing is everything. I feel like each of the last 3 or 4 head coaching cycles we’ve been a part of, there hasn’t been that obvious marriage for NYG and their head coach. In hindsight we all wish we had gone Vrabel over Shurmur, but I remember the Joe Judge head coaching cycle was particularly underwhelming unless we think McCarthy would have been a fit here. We could have hired Wink but that was a bullet dodged.
In the end I think Mara has hired a bunch of people recently who have let him down and I imagine he’s got to be sick about it. We know how personally he takes it. I kind of compare it to the Knicks and all the heat Dolan took for years even when though at the time it seemed perfectly logical to give power to guys like Donnie Walsh and Phil Jackson. Once you get the right people calling the shots (like Rose now for the Knicks) everything else seems to fall into place. I think a similar thing can be said for the Mets now too with Stearns.
I know this was long but this is the reason why I’m so pissed at Schoen and Daboll. I don’t think Mara has stood in their way one bit and we still find ourselves here. And the ironic thing is they were hired as “outside guys”.
The Steelers and Cowboys are good at it.
That's it.
But the Steelers are the essence of stability, but also being able to adapt.
They have had tremendous GMs/evaluators starting with Dick Haley ('70s/'80s), who built their dynasty in the 70s, to Tom Donahoe ('90s) to Kevin Colbert (2000s) and now Omar Khan (2002). Four GMs over 50+ years. Same with their coaches.
And whatever is in the water from those three rivers in Pittsburgh, they have had great scouts from what I have read.
Bill Nunn is actually in the Hall of Fame as a scout for Pittsburg for 40+ years. He was an African-American who really focused on HBCUs when other really didn't. Which allowed him to find guys like Mel Blount, Stallworth, Shell, Greenwood, etc.
It’s true we’ve sucked for about a decade, but these last years of futility followed a decade where we were near the top of the sport, below the Pats, but just about right there with anyone else.
Under John Mara’s leadership this franchise has 2 Super Bowl victories and the Giants overall franchise championship resume is near the top of the sport. The end of the Coughlin era was tough, but I think after the year TC had in 2015 it was just time. Even though it’s been rough since. I think Mara’s heart in the right place, I think he’s tried just about everything over the last few years to get it right. He went the “Giant way” with Gettleman and it backfired terribly. But before you completely dismiss his logic, he made a similar choice moving from Accorsi to Reese and he hit a home run. After it was clear Gettleman and Shurmur were failing, he went completely outside the box for Judge (especially when everyone here was figuring he would pencil in Garrett for HC) and I think many here, myself included, thought we had something in Judge.
The truth is Mara fired just about all of these guys before we ever thought he would. And yes, I believe that by the time Gettleman was sent off, he was virtually powerless. I think DG getting sick with cancer on the job had something to do with him sticking around a little longer than he might have otherwise, but that’s just my opinion.
I also think that in sports, sometimes timing is everything. I feel like each of the last 3 or 4 head coaching cycles we’ve been a part of, there hasn’t been that obvious marriage for NYG and their head coach. In hindsight we all wish we had gone Vrabel over Shurmur, but I remember the Joe Judge head coaching cycle was particularly underwhelming unless we think McCarthy would have been a fit here. We could have hired Wink but that was a bullet dodged.
In the end I think Mara has hired a bunch of people recently who have let him down and I imagine he’s got to be sick about it. We know how personally he takes it. I kind of compare it to the Knicks and all the heat Dolan took for years even when though at the time it seemed perfectly logical to give power to guys like Donnie Walsh and Phil Jackson. Once you get the right people calling the shots (like Rose now for the Knicks) everything else seems to fall into place. I think a similar thing can be said for the Mets now too with Stearns.
I know this was long but this is the reason why I’m so pissed at Schoen and Daboll. I don’t think Mara has stood in their way one bit and we still find ourselves here. And the ironic thing is they were hired as “outside guys”.
This is a great post. A lot of agreement here from me.
I think if there is one thing you can criticize Mara for he's often too late. You mention never having an obvious hire during their coaching search cycles. However, he could have been aggressive:
2013: He could have fired Coughlin & Reese and hired Reid. I don't think I would have had the stomach to do this, and I can't blame Mara for not doing it considering it's two years removed from SB46. But, Reid is still coaching and very well could win his 4th SB with KC this year.
2024: He could have fired Daboll and hired any of Belichick, Harbaugh or Vrabel.
Those are two examples but to the point of my OP, I don't think the Steelers would have been that cutthroat either.
I ultimately think if he can find the right GM/HC he would be fine and be in the background.
It's one of the many reasons I didn't want to get rid of TC/KG. We knew what kind of players they wanted. Big and physical at every position. Power run/deep play action offense. 3 WRs for Eli. Collect freak DE's on D and mow QBs down with 4 Aces package. It wouldn't always work, overall talent would ebb and flow, but it would give you a shot every year.
If they had just listened to KG about restocking the OL, they could've kept on humming. Instead they reinvented the wheel when they were already Goodyear.
In the Steelers case, perhaps they are as involved as the Maras. We know that Mara is a horrible leader and manager. Maybe the Rooneys who are in charge are just better at leading and managing.
This is the case in all businesses and all organizations. Leaders are important. There are good leaders and bad leaders. Any business is just made up of people. Organizations with good leaders who institute good processes and hire good people succeed. Organizations with bad leaders who institute bad processes fail.
In most Organizations, 10+ years of failure would result in the leader being fired many times over. Not here.
It’s true we’ve sucked for about a decade, but these last years of futility followed a decade where we were near the top of the sport, below the Pats, but just about right there with anyone else.
Under John Mara’s leadership this franchise has 2 Super Bowl victories and the Giants overall franchise championship resume is near the top of the sport. The end of the Coughlin era was tough, but I think after the year TC had in 2015 it was just time. Even though it’s been rough since. I think Mara’s heart in the right place, I think he’s tried just about everything over the last few years to get it right. He went the “Giant way” with Gettleman and it backfired terribly. But before you completely dismiss his logic, he made a similar choice moving from Accorsi to Reese and he hit a home run. After it was clear Gettleman and Shurmur were failing, he went completely outside the box for Judge (especially when everyone here was figuring he would pencil in Garrett for HC) and I think many here, myself included, thought we had something in Judge.
The truth is Mara fired just about all of these guys before we ever thought he would. And yes, I believe that by the time Gettleman was sent off, he was virtually powerless. I think DG getting sick with cancer on the job had something to do with him sticking around a little longer than he might have otherwise, but that’s just my opinion.
I also think that in sports, sometimes timing is everything. I feel like each of the last 3 or 4 head coaching cycles we’ve been a part of, there hasn’t been that obvious marriage for NYG and their head coach. In hindsight we all wish we had gone Vrabel over Shurmur, but I remember the Joe Judge head coaching cycle was particularly underwhelming unless we think McCarthy would have been a fit here. We could have hired Wink but that was a bullet dodged.
In the end I think Mara has hired a bunch of people recently who have let him down and I imagine he’s got to be sick about it. We know how personally he takes it. I kind of compare it to the Knicks and all the heat Dolan took for years even when though at the time it seemed perfectly logical to give power to guys like Donnie Walsh and Phil Jackson. Once you get the right people calling the shots (like Rose now for the Knicks) everything else seems to fall into place. I think a similar thing can be said for the Mets now too with Stearns.
I know this was long but this is the reason why I’m so pissed at Schoen and Daboll. I don’t think Mara has stood in their way one bit and we still find ourselves here. And the ironic thing is they were hired as “outside guys”.
great post.
In that period the Giants have had 14 head coaches, and arguably had 3 good ones. Parcells, Fassel, and Coughlin.
This is a great post. A lot of agreement here from me.
I think if there is one thing you can criticize Mara for he's often too late. You mention never having an obvious hire during their coaching search cycles. However, he could have been aggressive:
2013: He could have fired Coughlin & Reese and hired Reid. I don't think I would have had the stomach to do this, and I can't blame Mara for not doing it considering it's two years removed from SB46. But, Reid is still coaching and very well could win his 4th SB with KC this year.
2024: He could have fired Daboll and hired any of Belichick, Harbaugh or Vrabel.
Those are two examples but to the point of my OP, I don't think the Steelers would have been that cutthroat either.
I ultimately think if he can find the right GM/HC he would be fine and be in the background. [/quote]
Totally agree on the greatness of this post. BBI needs a whipping boy and John Mara is right time/right place guy. The truth is that no one on this board actually knows how much influence Mara exerts on the Giants personnel or coaching decisions.
Agree also "waiting too long to make decisions" issue. The one thing that was a huge whiff that still has ramifications on today's team is sticking with Eli way too long. Selecting Barkeley seems like it was a "get another year out of Eli" decision. I have no idea, but it seemed like a key question for the GM and HC interviews was "how will you get more years out of Eli?"
Andy Reid fired = december 2012
so that was never a realistic option.
in January 2016 here were the new head coaches in the mcadoo class:
Hue Jackson, Browns
Chip Kelly, 49ers
Dirk Koetter, Buccaneers
Ben McAdoo, Giants
Mike Mularkey, Titans
Doug Pederson, Eagles
in January 2018 here was shurmur's class:
Vrabel
Shurmur
Patricia
Mcdaniels then Reich
Wilks
Nagy
in January 2020 here was judge's class:
Rivera
Rhule
Stefanski
McCarthy
Jim Harbough is the guy who was out there and may have been available in 1 of those years. but at the same time he is a weird guy so it's hard to tell. in 2022 he bowed out of the minnesota job after interviewing, got a big extension from michigan, and did apparently did some cheating to win a NC before bailing back to the NFL.
Stefanski and Vrabel appear to have been the 2 real good hires they could have made, but both were first timers. Gruden did ok but he would have been hard to get.
in Jan 2022 occonnell and maybe mcdaniels look like possible misses if daboll tanks.
This is a scoring sport. It isn't soccer.
The Giants salary cap is too highly composed of a few very well paid, but low to no scoring players. Jones, Thomas, Dex and Burns do not outscore their opponents. Neither did Leo.
Bad things happen when a team doesn't outscore their opponents.
Mara did everything we wanted from him after 2021. Hire a GM from outside and let him hire the head coach. So, it's hard for me to rip him now.
I do think he talks too much and I do think with Belichick & Vrabel out there he'll need to go big now barring a turnaround this season.
If you win - no one cares
If you lose - for a decade - and you fire everyone else...there's nobody left to point the finger at.
The Giants haven’t built and fielded a great unit since 2016 and that lasted one year. It would have lasted longer if they actually vetted and knew wtf mcadoo was but they fell In love with that 14-15 Eli Beckham offense. They failed to see that it was coughin and Eli that were the catalysts. Mcadoo was a turkey.
They spread the wealth instead of focusing on building a dominant unit. I use the term wealth loosely….
Huh?!! They were a 1-yr wonder built strictly through free agency and overinflated contracts. Let’s face it folks, the last time we had a “true” identity was the 80s and we NEVER got it back. Briefly perhaps for the last two SBs but never for a sustained period. If you can’t see that I don’t know what to tell you
Mara did everything we wanted from him after 2021. Hire a GM from outside and let him hire the head coach. So, it's hard for me to rip him now.
He did break the pattern for sure. You could argue hiring Schoen was part of the Gettleman "tree" because he reported to Beane, who was mentored by Gettleman at Carolina. But Beane has been so good in Buffalo that you can look beyond that.
This is why I've been far less willing to blame Mara for this current debacle. I actually believe that Mara gave Schoen the keys to 1925 Giants Way kingdom; and this team actually reflects the vision of Schoen and Daboll.
Tomlin is the longest tenured coach in the league.
But also, the Giants have won a playoff game more recently than Steelers and the Giants have won a Super Bowl more recently than the Steelers. So, for all their "success" they haven't succeeded in a much more meaningful way.
Tomlin is the longest tenured coach in the league.
But also, the Giants have won a playoff game more recently than Steelers and the Giants have won a Super Bowl more recently than the Steelers. So, for all their "success" they haven't succeeded in a much more meaningful way.
This is a great point you've highlighted. I understand that part of the Giants history is very high peaks and very low valleys, but this was part of the long-winded post I wrote above. Compared with the rest of the league, the Giants have been very successful by most measures.
4 pre-modern titles to go along with 4 Super Bowls
Average of 1 title each of the last 4 decades (they better get to work if they hope to continue that)
5-0 NFCCG record
4-1 Super Bowl record
Even in the horrible stretch of football they've made a few playoff cameos and won a playoff game
So yes, the bar needs to be set much higher than that and especially what it's been lately, but big picture this is still a proud franchise an deservedly so (opening day notwithstanding).
This. A lot of Giants fans don't want to confront the fact that Eli wasn't the same player after Hurricane Sandy (2014 and 15 were decent but I would argue not on the level of his prime despite the high TD totals), while Ben maintained a high standard up until 2019. WHen you combine this with the Steelers being better at identifying defensive talent, that counts for a lot.
You nail it here. I've often said this too, and it makes the situation a lot more simple than most want to admit.
Also, as Connor Hughes said on the BBI podcast, Schoen is very transparent. He generally says what he thinks.
Lastly, Mara talking to the media how often as he does is frustrating. You'd prefer he says nothing, but it comes with the job to manage. Jerry Jones has weekly interviews, they still win.
But as aj says above, ultimately this all falls on subpar QB play.
Mara missed were the underlying issues and the major one started with the drafts. After round 2 was not very good going back to 2008 and then starting in '11 and forward the drafts were subpar. Giants lost their identity which was very similar to the Steelers. Instead the Giants saw the destruction of the LoS still trying to be fixed today.
Just a sample but the Steelers starting in '10 added Pouncey and then DeCastro shortly after. Took the Giants 16 years to add a PB/AP OL in the draft from Snee to Thomas. Never added one in FA and those were added because of terrible drafts. Most of the hires since TC seem to be perimeter oriented imv. First thing TC addressed were fixing the lines when hired.
Think about the Steelers for a second. You know what kind of player is a Steeler. Hard nosed, blue collar, disciplined, very coachable. They build a solid, tough defense with guys who like to hit, and they build an offense that is meant to manage the game and take shots when they are there.
Now think about a Giants player. Outside of the early 80s when Young was making personnel decisions, who do the Giants draft? ??? There is no philosophy. There is no "Giants type of player." Each season this team is trying to figure out what they are.
Who is a Ben McAdoo player? Who is a Joe Judge player (hint - special teams ace), who is a Brian Daboll player?
It was nice the franchise stapled "smart, tough, dependable" all over the facility. but then they built an offense around two players who were not smart or dependable because they were great media guys and commercial friendly. Their slogan is a marketing campaign, not a something they follow.
tl:dr: The Steelers build to a franchise identity. The Giants draft players to plug holes.
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Would have looked a hell of a lot better with consistent QB play.
You nail it here. I've often said this too, and it makes the situation a lot more simple than most want to admit.
The coaching trends:
Mcadoo Year 1: playoffs off a smoke and mirrors offense carried by Odell
Year 2: poor QB play dooms the season, along with the defense falling apart
Judge: good year 1
Year 2: poor QB play and injuries derail the season
Daboll Year 1: playoffs off of smoke and mirrors on offense
Year 2: poor QB play tanks the season
It’s not a coincidence that every coach with the exception of Shurmur had a good first year.
I don't know what Mara was trying to accomplish with Judge but that was some seriously dour shit. I actually am way more optimistic about the long-term state of the team now because there's much more potential young talent here than there was at the end of 2021, when the only good players were overleveraged veteran FAs (remember Dex hadn't hit yet).
I don't really put the failures of the Schoen/Daboll era on Mara. The biggest fuckup is the Jones contract but you know what? Mara isn't responsible for Schoen and Daboll constantly flip-flopping on how to utilize him, waffling back and forth between trying to build a spread offense then going conservative with 12 personnel, when it's clear the latter approach probably suits him better.
To me Daboll primarily owns the failures of this season thus far. Both the defense and offense would be off to faster starts if he hadn't scapegoated both of his coordinators last season. I guess Mara could've fired him as Terps suggested, but let's not pretend we'd be screaming at him for blaming the coach in a season where Jones and the oline flopped and put the team in a hole.
Just a combination of bad decisions and then bad luck which distinguished the Giants from the Steelers.
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Mara did everything we wanted from him after 2021. Hire a GM from outside and let him hire the head coach. So, it's hard for me to rip him now.
He did break the pattern for sure. You could argue hiring Schoen was part of the Gettleman "tree" because he reported to Beane, who was mentored by Gettleman at Carolina. But Beane has been so good in Buffalo that you can look beyond that.
This is why I've been far less willing to blame Mara for this current debacle. I actually believe that Mara gave Schoen the keys to 1925 Giants Way kingdom; and this team actually reflects the vision of Schoen and Daboll.
If you hire someone who fails, that's your own failure. It's not Mara's job to "do everything we want" him to do, it's his job to hire capable people to build a strong football team regardless of fan input/reaction. If Schoen is the wrong guy, you blame the guy who hired him.
Mara took over a franchise that had a strong foundation, a solid coach and a young QB. Whatever credit you want to give John Mara for not firing Coughlin and encouraging Wellington to "let" Accorsi made the Eli trade, you also have to blame him for basically everything that has happened since then.
And further, without Wellington and Tim being forced into hiring George Young, there would have been nothing there for John in 2005.
Prior to that, the Mara family hadn't fielded a remotely competitive football team in 15 years.
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In comment 16614738 Sean said:
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Mara did everything we wanted from him after 2021. Hire a GM from outside and let him hire the head coach. So, it's hard for me to rip him now.
He did break the pattern for sure. You could argue hiring Schoen was part of the Gettleman "tree" because he reported to Beane, who was mentored by Gettleman at Carolina. But Beane has been so good in Buffalo that you can look beyond that.
This is why I've been far less willing to blame Mara for this current debacle. I actually believe that Mara gave Schoen the keys to 1925 Giants Way kingdom; and this team actually reflects the vision of Schoen and Daboll.
If you hire someone who fails, that's your own failure. It's not Mara's job to "do everything we want" him to do, it's his job to hire capable people to build a strong football team regardless of fan input/reaction. If Schoen is the wrong guy, you blame the guy who hired him.
Mara took over a franchise that had a strong foundation, a solid coach and a young QB. Whatever credit you want to give John Mara for not firing Coughlin and encouraging Wellington to "let" Accorsi made the Eli trade, you also have to blame him for basically everything that has happened since then.
And further, without Wellington and Tim being forced into hiring George Young, there would have been nothing there for John in 2005.
Prior to that, the Mara family hadn't fielded a remotely competitive football team in 15 years.
See, you reveal yourself with this post. You want to lay blame and strip away any credit. At least be consistent.
And yes, Mara has had a run now of hiring the wrong people, that's a fair take. But it flies in the face of the narrative that Mara is pulling the strings behind the curtain.
Mara, like most owners, is as good or as bad as the people he hires to make the big decisions for him. I'd argue that's why he needs to stop with these first time GMs/head coaches.
I am very much on the fence about Belichick right now. It's so enticing in so many ways, but then you look at Bill's age and his post-Brady track record and it make me worried. I think I would feel more comfortable turning the franchise over to Vrabel and let him bring in a GM he knows and is comfortable with. Vrabel can be entering his prime as a head coach having already learned a few things from his time in Tennessee.
Prior to that, the Mara family hadn't fielded a remotely competitive football team in 15 years.
This gets to the heart of the matter. When a Mara is left unchecked to run the front office, bad things happen.
Young righted the ship once and it stayed afloat under Accorsi who carried a degree of gravitas in the front office because of his connection to Young that largely let him do what he wanted. That was the foundation for the Superbowl teams.
Since then? A parade of Reese, Gettleman and Schoen. All picked by John Mara to fill the GM role, all disappointments.
See, you reveal yourself with this post. You want to lay blame and strip away any credit. At least be consistent.
You're right, I'm not giving John Mara credit for two Super Bowl titles that were won based on an organizational foundation that was built when he was at Fordham Law School.
George Young and Ernie Accorsi. They get the credit, with an assist to Reese for his early draft successes.
I make no bones about it. The Mara family isn't fit to run a football operation on their own. If not for the mercy of Pete Rozelle, who couldn't bare to watch the Giants embarrass themselves or the NFL any longer, this franchise would have the same history as the Detroit Lions.
He fucked up the end of Reese/Coughlin. He fucked up the subsequent GM "search". He contributed to the fucked up end to Eli's career. He fucked up Joe Judge. And if Schoen is a failure, he fucked that up too.
And as long as John insists that The Nephew is one of the most respected football personnel men in the league, it's apparent that nothing has changed.
Mara, like most owners, is as good or as bad as the people he hires to make the big decisions for him. I'd argue that's why he needs to stop with these first time GMs/head coaches.
The counterpoint here is that Mara hired three GMs, only one of which had held that title before, and he turned out to be arguable the worst hire in franchise history.
I agree on the need to get someone with experience, because any influence from Mara - even a little - is problematic for the Giants.
He did break the pattern for sure. You could argue hiring Schoen was part of the Gettleman "tree" because he reported to Beane, who was mentored by Gettleman at Carolina. But Beane has been so good in Buffalo that you can look beyond that.
This is why I've been far less willing to blame Mara for this current debacle. I actually believe that Mara gave Schoen the keys to 1925 Giants Way kingdom; and this team actually reflects the vision of Schoen and Daboll.
If you hire someone who fails, that's your own failure. It's not Mara's job to "do everything we want" him to do, it's his job to hire capable people to build a strong football team regardless of fan input/reaction. If Schoen is the wrong guy, you blame the guy who hired him.
Mara took over a franchise that had a strong foundation, a solid coach and a young QB. Whatever credit you want to give John Mara for not firing Coughlin and encouraging Wellington to "let" Accorsi made the Eli trade, you also have to blame him for basically everything that has happened since then.
And further, without Wellington and Tim being forced into hiring George Young, there would have been nothing there for John in 2005.
Prior to that, the Mara family hadn't fielded a remotely competitive football team in 15 years.
I agree that if the Schoen-Daboll regime fails, that falls on Mara. 100%.
However, my point is that Mara - IMV - gave Schoen control of the football operations and Schoen is making all personnel decisions. Mara is now more of a sounding board. And that was clear if anyone paid attention in Hard Knocks.
While I would love to pin what's been going on the last three years on Mara, based on his fingerprints on other situations, this team is Schoen. All Schoen.
Think about the Steelers for a second. You know what kind of player is a Steeler. Hard nosed, blue collar, disciplined, very coachable. They build a solid, tough defense with guys who like to hit, and they build an offense that is meant to manage the game and take shots when they are there.
Now think about a Giants player. Outside of the early 80s when Young was making personnel decisions, who do the Giants draft? ??? There is no philosophy. There is no "Giants type of player." Each season this team is trying to figure out what they are.
Who is a Ben McAdoo player? Who is a Joe Judge player (hint - special teams ace), who is a Brian Daboll player?
It was nice the franchise stapled "smart, tough, dependable" all over the facility. but then they built an offense around two players who were not smart or dependable because they were great media guys and commercial friendly. Their slogan is a marketing campaign, not a something they follow.
tl:dr: The Steelers build to a franchise identity. The Giants draft players to plug holes.
the departure from smart tough dependable in the 2023 offseason headlined by the waller and campbell moves at the expense of someone who was legitimately smart/tough/dependable like love was where their over confidence was most frustrating.
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See, you reveal yourself with this post. You want to lay blame and strip away any credit. At least be consistent.
You're right, I'm not giving John Mara credit for two Super Bowl titles that were won based on an organizational foundation that was built when he was at Fordham Law School.
this is not true. he and ernie were the 2 guys in the hiring process with Coughlin. his first major solo hiring decision was jerry reese to GM in 2007.
how many people were ready to fire coughlin before/during 2007? mara got that right, including forcing coughlin to move on from tim lewis (which led to spags).