Interesting take on Giants vs Cowboys game. Author (Darryl Slater) thinks that if Met Life is filled with Cowboy fans on national TV ownership will turn on current JS/DB. Job security - ( New Window )
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
It’s year 3. It’s not unreasonable to expect the franchise to not be a laughingstock, yet here we are.
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
Two games in and one of the biggest things we hoped for looks like it has happened, the OLine looks to be stable, if not good.
The defense vs the run has been bad, just like last year. But there is a lot more talent otherwise.
I would say that right now I have no idea what they are.
It's not a bullshit excuse.
Everyone got out of control and thought the team was just $40 M away from the next step.
So being saddled with that guy for the past two years? Downward pressure on the record, while expectations rose.
It's a fucking reality,if you wish to get foul mouthed about it.
Maybe they're not good. Maybe they, especially BD, will implode over the course of the year.
But this is not a good environment. According to Eric's podcast, BD felt like he was coaching for his job coming into year 3. The Giants have had 6 win talent, and they won 9 and 6 games coming in. There are valid points to criticize about him for sure, but big picture, he has over produced vs the talent. And he's on the hot seat. Being on the hot seat as soon as something goes wrong is not the way to get the best out of people.
At some point, are we going to let guys work through adversity? Are we going to let people learn lessons and improve? It's not like this roster is a SB contender that's being squandered.
Or are we just going to supply below average rosters and put guys on the hot seat the first time they achieve below average results?
Again - this is not necessarily specific to Daboll. Maybe he's bad. Maybe he's going to melt down. But this is not a productive way of doing business. And maybe the meltdowns are related to the environment and culture that leadership has fostered.
RE: I would say Daboll is in the hot seat not Schoen.
It's only bullshit if you don't believe in progress. This team started hot under Daboll and has been a mess since. Do you remember the back half of 2022 when the team went 2-5-1? Yes they beat the Vikings in the playoffs. Great. Then the next week they were absolutely not competitive against a division rival.
But hey, as long as the players like Daboll, we will be ok losing games for years! We don't need them to be good, or even show progress. We just need the players to like the head coach and sit around reminiscing about the 2022 season.
Maybe we all need to understand that the long awaited full tear-down
rebuild we've been clamoring for started immediately after the Week 1 Dallas game last year.
They had a sugar high, and built some good will with a wildly successful first season and then tried to run it back with a similar roster in '23....it failed.
We now see they have invested heavily in the Oline (FA & draft), Dbackfield, Edge Rushers, and some offensive weapons. They will need to finish the job on the defensive line and address the QB.
I disagree that wither JS or BD should have their jobs in jeopardy, unless they prove as failures with leading the team or organizing game plans.
Thus far the players have fought competitively in the vast majority of the games (e.g. Christmas Day vs Phila, Week 17 vs. Rams, Week 18 vs. Phila) and bounced back after a disaster Week 1 this season. Let's see if they can keep building some momentum and progress with the young players (JMS, Neal, Hyatt, etc).
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
Two games in and one of the biggest things we hoped for looks like it has happened, the OLine looks to be stable, if not good.
The defense vs the run has been bad, just like last year. But there is a lot more talent otherwise.
I would say that right now I have no idea what they are.
They're only two (basically pre-season) games in. But, they look like they are exactly where they should be, getting blown out by good teams, competitive against poor teams, just like all of last year and the second half of the previous year.
An improvement of the OL was a given, considering last year's OL was the worst in the NFL in three decades.
if they can fire a HC who brought two world championships going head to head with two of the greatest, they can fire this chump and his boss. This isn't an on-the-job-junior-executive training program.
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
It’s year 3. It’s not unreasonable to expect the franchise to not be a laughingstock, yet here we are.
I have mentioned this before but how long did it take the Lions to start their rise once they got the GM and coach? They’re a great example. Perhaps we just don’t have the right people in place. Everyone talks about the Mara family being involved in football operations but how many owners have family members in place? Steelers? Cowboys?
didnt set the team back whatsoever. The decisions following it were the ones that were diasterous.
You can blame Mara all you want, but JS and BD have been utter failures since then. They had options and choose not to explore them.
I am thinking Daboll is more of a company man than many believe here.
You stated explicitly what most leave implicit. It's the choices as a result of being a "playoff team".
They were a playoff team and it should not be discredited. It should have been a reason to propel this team to further heights. But our draft picks from 2022 and 2023 were not helpful last year. Our coach was frequently unprepared for games. Our depth was abysmal.
We have a huge disadvantage at QB just about every week we play. But it is becoming more clear that we have a huge disadvantage at HC as well.
Our main issue now is the defense sucks ass. The offense seems to be OK and if Jones can improve it will be decent. OLine is vastly better.
This is one of the youngest teams and we made errors letting good vets go thinking rookies are plug and play. McKinney's loss is a big problem. JMS is slow to pick up where Feliciano left off.
Even the good rookies are dropping balls but getting more experience.
I think as long as we move into more competitive ball and get a good defensive coordinator we may move past this ugly awkward phase in 2 years. Provided the QB is replaced or decides to be a lot better
we start 0-8, which certainly seems possible, both should be fired, at least by the end of the year. How is 0-8 the "substantial improvement" that Mara insisted on this year?
They have both made a ton of mistakes, the latest being not having a kicker last weekend despite knowing that Gano was already injured. That likely cost us the game.
Schoen's personnel moves are looking increasingly bad. He used the #5 and #7 picks on KT and Neal, neither of whom has played up to their draft status. Same for Ezeudu and Flott, who were third round picks. He used a third and a fourth on Hyatt, who can't get on the field. He drafted Bellingerr instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson. He traded a third for Waller. He didn't trade Barkley. He was at least partially responsible for the idiotic Jones contract. He hasn't found a #2 CB or a competent run stuffer to play next to Lawrence.
we start 0-8, which certainly seems possible, both should be fired, at least by the end of the year. How is 0-8 the "substantial improvement" that Mara insisted on this year?
They have both made a ton of mistakes, the latest being not having a kicker last weekend despite knowing that Gano was already injured. That likely cost us the game.
Schoen's personnel moves are looking increasingly bad. He used the #5 and #7 picks on KT and Neal, neither of whom has played up to their draft status. Same for Ezeudu and Flott, who were third round picks. He used a third and a fourth on Hyatt, who can't get on the field. He drafted Bellingerr instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson. He traded a third for Waller. He didn't trade Barkley. He was at least partially responsible for the idiotic Jones contract. He hasn't found a #2 CB or a competent run stuffer to play next to Lawrence.
This last paragraph is a perfect summary of Schoens performance as GM. While the draft is always a crap shoot in the later rounds, you can’t miss in the early rounds. By yr 3, you pretty much know what you have in a player. The ‘22 class is looking pretty disappointing at this point.
When has a Giants GM been fired just for draft picks
we start 0-8, which certainly seems possible, both should be fired, at least by the end of the year. How is 0-8 the "substantial improvement" that Mara insisted on this year?
They have both made a ton of mistakes, the latest being not having a kicker last weekend despite knowing that Gano was already injured. That likely cost us the game.
Schoen's personnel moves are looking increasingly bad. He used the #5 and #7 picks on KT and Neal, neither of whom has played up to their draft status. Same for Ezeudu and Flott, who were third round picks. He used a third and a fourth on Hyatt, who can't get on the field. He drafted Bellingerr instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson. He traded a third for Waller. He didn't trade Barkley. He was at least partially responsible for the idiotic Jones contract. He hasn't found a #2 CB or a competent run stuffer to play next to Lawrence.
This last paragraph is a perfect summary of Schoens performance as GM. While the draft is always a crap shoot in the later rounds, you can’t miss in the early rounds. By yr 3, you pretty much know what you have in a player. The ‘22 class is looking pretty disappointing at this point.
I would argue its "by the END of year 3 you know what you have in a player."
KT, in year 2 had double digit sacks. So far this year, looking at advanced metrics like "time to pressure" he's in the top 10 in the league.
Neal has been a disappointment through 2 seasons, some of which COULD be poor coaching and injuries. Coach Carm has only been able to work with him on the field a few weeks due to his recovery time. He might be a bust, but let's see what he looks like the next time he gets on the field.
We're 2 games in to a 17 game season. The 3rd season with this GM/HC. Unless the players tune out BD, I don't see them getting fired unless they lose 14+ games. We're in a rebuild. The 1st season playoff appearance bought them a 4th year.
Yeah, no. The magical thinking that one takes loses to the market and exchanges them for future wins after the fact is bullshit. I tell you what else is bbullshit. Advocating losing because you think later it somehow assures wins because draft magic ensures good picks and certified wins. Your logic is bullshit, I says.
I’m sure the top tier coaching talent they’ll finally be ready to hire will be lining up around the corner to work with a lame duck GM. Keep both another year or let both go.
RE: RE: I would say Daboll is in the hot seat not Schoen.
If Daboll is gone this year, Schoen gets another year with a different coach.
I agree. And personally I like Schoen. He comes across as calm, competent, thoughtful, and not egotistical.
Coming across as competent is different than being competent. Schoen's track record so far does not scream competence. In fact, I would argue that Daboll has proven to be competent. 9 wins his first year with marginal talent, and last year was disastrous mainly due to injuries.
I have said this many times here, but winning 6 games with a UDFA QB and that roster was borderline miraculous. If they decide to move on Daboll, I'll get it, but Schoen should go too.
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
I think the taste of success that did real damage was 2016: it led to three more years of kidding ourselves about Eli, and took the Giants out of the running for Mahomes, who might otherwise have been the one thing Ben McAdoo got right.
2016 is the year you can make a pretty strong, specific case that the Giants would have been much better off sucking.
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
How's it worse every year, what about 2022
Huh? That was the first year. 2023 was worse and 2024 hasn’t exactly screamed “improvement” just yet.
RE: Why does change have to be preceded by sucking?
… in the long run sucking and losing is far preferable to sucking and eking out a playoff berth. Losing forces reflection and - yes - improves draft/waiver position. A season like 2016 or 2022 invites denial and self-deception. 2017, 2018, 2023 and so far 2024 are partly the biproduct of nominal, illusory success.
Of course, under Gettleman the Giants achieved ample self-deception without ever winning a damn thing. So the issues here run deeper than occasionally stumbling into the playoffs.
It's only bullshit if you don't believe in progress. This team started hot under Daboll and has been a mess since. Do you remember the back half of 2022 when the team went 2-5-1? Yes they beat the Vikings in the playoffs. Great. Then the next week they were absolutely not competitive against a division rival.
But hey, as long as the players like Daboll, we will be ok losing games for years! We don't need them to be good, or even show progress. We just need the players to like the head coach and sit around reminiscing about the 2022 season.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
It’s year 3. It’s not unreasonable to expect the franchise to not be a laughingstock, yet here we are.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
Quote:
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
Two games in and one of the biggest things we hoped for looks like it has happened, the OLine looks to be stable, if not good.
The defense vs the run has been bad, just like last year. But there is a lot more talent otherwise.
I would say that right now I have no idea what they are.
This!!!
That bullshit excuse is getting old.
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Set this team back by two years.
That bullshit excuse is getting old.
It's not a bullshit excuse.
Everyone got out of control and thought the team was just $40 M away from the next step.
So being saddled with that guy for the past two years? Downward pressure on the record, while expectations rose.
It's a fucking reality,if you wish to get foul mouthed about it.
But this is not a good environment. According to Eric's podcast, BD felt like he was coaching for his job coming into year 3. The Giants have had 6 win talent, and they won 9 and 6 games coming in. There are valid points to criticize about him for sure, but big picture, he has over produced vs the talent. And he's on the hot seat. Being on the hot seat as soon as something goes wrong is not the way to get the best out of people.
At some point, are we going to let guys work through adversity? Are we going to let people learn lessons and improve? It's not like this roster is a SB contender that's being squandered.
Or are we just going to supply below average rosters and put guys on the hot seat the first time they achieve below average results?
Again - this is not necessarily specific to Daboll. Maybe he's bad. Maybe he's going to melt down. But this is not a productive way of doing business. And maybe the meltdowns are related to the environment and culture that leadership has fostered.
I agree. And personally I like Schoen. He comes across as calm, competent, thoughtful, and not egotistical.
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Set this team back by two years.
That bullshit excuse is getting old.
It's only bullshit if you don't believe in progress. This team started hot under Daboll and has been a mess since. Do you remember the back half of 2022 when the team went 2-5-1? Yes they beat the Vikings in the playoffs. Great. Then the next week they were absolutely not competitive against a division rival.
But hey, as long as the players like Daboll, we will be ok losing games for years! We don't need them to be good, or even show progress. We just need the players to like the head coach and sit around reminiscing about the 2022 season.
They had a sugar high, and built some good will with a wildly successful first season and then tried to run it back with a similar roster in '23....it failed.
We now see they have invested heavily in the Oline (FA & draft), Dbackfield, Edge Rushers, and some offensive weapons. They will need to finish the job on the defensive line and address the QB.
I disagree that wither JS or BD should have their jobs in jeopardy, unless they prove as failures with leading the team or organizing game plans.
Thus far the players have fought competitively in the vast majority of the games (e.g. Christmas Day vs Phila, Week 17 vs. Rams, Week 18 vs. Phila) and bounced back after a disaster Week 1 this season. Let's see if they can keep building some momentum and progress with the young players (JMS, Neal, Hyatt, etc).
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In comment 16615675 mfjmfj said:
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32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
Two games in and one of the biggest things we hoped for looks like it has happened, the OLine looks to be stable, if not good.
The defense vs the run has been bad, just like last year. But there is a lot more talent otherwise.
I would say that right now I have no idea what they are.
An improvement of the OL was a given, considering last year's OL was the worst in the NFL in three decades.
You can blame Mara all you want, but JS and BD have been utter failures since then. They had options and choose not to explore them.
I am thinking Daboll is more of a company man than many believe here.
Quote:
32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
It’s year 3. It’s not unreasonable to expect the franchise to not be a laughingstock, yet here we are.
I have mentioned this before but how long did it take the Lions to start their rise once they got the GM and coach? They’re a great example. Perhaps we just don’t have the right people in place. Everyone talks about the Mara family being involved in football operations but how many owners have family members in place? Steelers? Cowboys?
You can blame Mara all you want, but JS and BD have been utter failures since then. They had options and choose not to explore them.
I am thinking Daboll is more of a company man than many believe here.
You stated explicitly what most leave implicit. It's the choices as a result of being a "playoff team".
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didnt set the team back whatsoever. The decisions following it were the ones that were diasterous.
You can blame Mara all you want, but JS and BD have been utter failures since then. They had options and choose not to explore them.
I am thinking Daboll is more of a company man than many believe here.
You stated explicitly what most leave implicit. It's the choices as a result of being a "playoff team".
They were a playoff team and it should not be discredited. It should have been a reason to propel this team to further heights. But our draft picks from 2022 and 2023 were not helpful last year. Our coach was frequently unprepared for games. Our depth was abysmal.
We have a huge disadvantage at QB just about every week we play. But it is becoming more clear that we have a huge disadvantage at HC as well.
This is one of the youngest teams and we made errors letting good vets go thinking rookies are plug and play. McKinney's loss is a big problem. JMS is slow to pick up where Feliciano left off.
Even the good rookies are dropping balls but getting more experience.
I think as long as we move into more competitive ball and get a good defensive coordinator we may move past this ugly awkward phase in 2 years. Provided the QB is replaced or decides to be a lot better
They have both made a ton of mistakes, the latest being not having a kicker last weekend despite knowing that Gano was already injured. That likely cost us the game.
Schoen's personnel moves are looking increasingly bad. He used the #5 and #7 picks on KT and Neal, neither of whom has played up to their draft status. Same for Ezeudu and Flott, who were third round picks. He used a third and a fourth on Hyatt, who can't get on the field. He drafted Bellingerr instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson. He traded a third for Waller. He didn't trade Barkley. He was at least partially responsible for the idiotic Jones contract. He hasn't found a #2 CB or a competent run stuffer to play next to Lawrence.
They have both made a ton of mistakes, the latest being not having a kicker last weekend despite knowing that Gano was already injured. That likely cost us the game.
Schoen's personnel moves are looking increasingly bad. He used the #5 and #7 picks on KT and Neal, neither of whom has played up to their draft status. Same for Ezeudu and Flott, who were third round picks. He used a third and a fourth on Hyatt, who can't get on the field. He drafted Bellingerr instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson. He traded a third for Waller. He didn't trade Barkley. He was at least partially responsible for the idiotic Jones contract. He hasn't found a #2 CB or a competent run stuffer to play next to Lawrence.
This last paragraph is a perfect summary of Schoens performance as GM. While the draft is always a crap shoot in the later rounds, you can’t miss in the early rounds. By yr 3, you pretty much know what you have in a player. The ‘22 class is looking pretty disappointing at this point.
Quote:
we start 0-8, which certainly seems possible, both should be fired, at least by the end of the year. How is 0-8 the "substantial improvement" that Mara insisted on this year?
They have both made a ton of mistakes, the latest being not having a kicker last weekend despite knowing that Gano was already injured. That likely cost us the game.
Schoen's personnel moves are looking increasingly bad. He used the #5 and #7 picks on KT and Neal, neither of whom has played up to their draft status. Same for Ezeudu and Flott, who were third round picks. He used a third and a fourth on Hyatt, who can't get on the field. He drafted Bellingerr instead of Isaiah Likely or Jake Ferguson. He traded a third for Waller. He didn't trade Barkley. He was at least partially responsible for the idiotic Jones contract. He hasn't found a #2 CB or a competent run stuffer to play next to Lawrence.
This last paragraph is a perfect summary of Schoens performance as GM. While the draft is always a crap shoot in the later rounds, you can’t miss in the early rounds. By yr 3, you pretty much know what you have in a player. The ‘22 class is looking pretty disappointing at this point.
I would argue its "by the END of year 3 you know what you have in a player."
KT, in year 2 had double digit sacks. So far this year, looking at advanced metrics like "time to pressure" he's in the top 10 in the league.
Neal has been a disappointment through 2 seasons, some of which COULD be poor coaching and injuries. Coach Carm has only been able to work with him on the field a few weeks due to his recovery time. He might be a bust, but let's see what he looks like the next time he gets on the field.
We're 2 games in to a 17 game season. The 3rd season with this GM/HC. Unless the players tune out BD, I don't see them getting fired unless they lose 14+ games. We're in a rebuild. The 1st season playoff appearance bought them a 4th year.
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If Daboll is gone this year, Schoen gets another year with a different coach.
I agree. And personally I like Schoen. He comes across as calm, competent, thoughtful, and not egotistical.
Coming across as competent is different than being competent. Schoen's track record so far does not scream competence. In fact, I would argue that Daboll has proven to be competent. 9 wins his first year with marginal talent, and last year was disastrous mainly due to injuries.
I have said this many times here, but winning 6 games with a UDFA QB and that roster was borderline miraculous. If they decide to move on Daboll, I'll get it, but Schoen should go too.
You can blame Mara all you want, but JS and BD have been utter failures since then. They had options and choose not to explore them.
I am thinking Daboll is more of a company man than many believe here.
But that's the point, they overreacted to a playoff bid and altered their plan. Schoen admitted as much after last season.
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32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
How's it worse every year, what about 2022
I think the taste of success that did real damage was 2016: it led to three more years of kidding ourselves about Eli, and took the Giants out of the running for Mahomes, who might otherwise have been the one thing Ben McAdoo got right.
2016 is the year you can make a pretty strong, specific case that the Giants would have been much better off sucking.
"It's better a year too early than a year too late."
With the Giants the mantra appears to have been "it's better to suck for four or five years before you risk making a change."
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In comment 16615675 mfjmfj said:
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32 of these jobs and the 90 year old GOAT may be available, but besides him, who would possibly want to work for these guys if they fire them again after two seasons. They desperately want to be a stable franchise. You have to give these guys time.
I don't see them getting fired unless Daboll "loses the team"
They are in year 3 now and it has been worse each year.
How's it worse every year, what about 2022
Huh? That was the first year. 2023 was worse and 2024 hasn’t exactly screamed “improvement” just yet.
"It's better a year too early than a year too late."
With the Giants the mantra appears to have been "it's better to suck for four or five years before you risk making a change."
Management clearly plays by the Happy Sunshine Unicorn* playbook, where anything that's not a total disaster is a positive
*Hat tip to the poster that used this term in another thread
Of course, under Gettleman the Giants achieved ample self-deception without ever winning a damn thing. So the issues here run deeper than occasionally stumbling into the playoffs.
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In comment 16615680 Blueworm said:
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Set this team back by two years.
That bullshit excuse is getting old.
It's only bullshit if you don't believe in progress. This team started hot under Daboll and has been a mess since. Do you remember the back half of 2022 when the team went 2-5-1? Yes they beat the Vikings in the playoffs. Great. Then the next week they were absolutely not competitive against a division rival.
But hey, as long as the players like Daboll, we will be ok losing games for years! We don't need them to be good, or even show progress. We just need the players to like the head coach and sit around reminiscing about the 2022 season.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.