Jones + Arm Strength Post Neck Injury

looks that way.

He had some gorgeous, Peyton Manning-esque deep throws in college too. It was one of the things I was excited about with him.

I don't know if its injury, confidence, being broken by the early sacks, or something about his play that doesn't translate to NFL level talent, but he is different. He is just a game manager now, and we can get them for $5-10M not $40M.

It looks like he just doesn't have the arm to make those throws anymore. Maybe that's a matter of mechanics, maybe it's fixable, but it now looks like he can see the opportunities but can't cash in on them.

Is only $22MM. So he still might be a placeholder for whoever we draft in the spring. But his days here are certainly numbered.

DJ Contract Deets - ( New Window )

down the field. Herbstreit mentioned last night he might not have his leg strength back after the ACL? But something is off.

I don't recall him throwing short balls at this rate. He can still throw bullets but the range seems diminished.

Who knows, maybe it takes time.

And not because of Jones but because of the fucking separation his targets had on those plays.

This board had Jones derangement syndrome at this point. He was so far from the reason we lost last night but it’s all I keep reading about. He will never make most of you happy. I believe 90% of this place only watches the Giants and are dead set on replacing the guy.

You can win with this Jones but he isn’t going to carry a team on his back and that can be said for most of the QB’s in the league.

How about running for more than 26 yards on 24 attempts. TWENTY SIX fucking yard against the putrid run D we were playing.

Blue Hurricane, any thoughts or contribution to the actual topic?

said this last night on the game and post game threads, and another thread this morning, but I think we need to start asking whether Jones' two neck injuries have permanently limited his ability to throw deep. They were both very serious injuries, and he has already made several serious underthrows this season, and not just last night.

Jones actually used to be an accurate deep ball passer, even though he didnt do it often.. Now it looks terrible.. Underthrows, bad location.. No zip...

Maybe this is another thing Schoen and Daboll should have considered before "rolling with Daniel" another year.

Idiots.

On the last play of the game hair Mary, and it didn’t look like he took a running start. If you go back to the superstar competitions from the 90s most of the best QBs, Favre, Brady, Bledsoe, weee maxing out at 65-70. So I don’t think it same strength. I think he’s just releasing too late or too early, timing is off.

but we are not getting our money's worth. He can move the team downfield but we need a big shot he shows a noodle arm. That's not enough for his contract.

I know those are just the highlights, but wow, the offense was so much more open, deeper then. I don't know if it's a chicken/egg thing...or if it's how Daboll calls games...

I tend to think Jones is physically and mentally damaged and so just doesn't throw it like he used to. After that rookie year, it was obvious that he had the good and if he could keep developing, he'd be a top 12ish QB. That has changed, obviously.

this at least gives the Giants a palatable, face-saving justification to move on:

"We drafted a very fine young QB who undeniably would have reached the pantheon of elite QBs this league has seen. He was well on his way. Unfortunately, injuries robbed him of his unprecedented potential."

In comment 16627751 CMicks3110 said:

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On the last play of the game hair Mary, and it didn’t look like he took a running start. If you go back to the superstar competitions from the 90s most of the best QBs, Favre, Brady, Bledsoe, weee maxing out at 65-70. So I don’t think it same strength. I think he’s just releasing too late or too early, timing is off.

There's a major difference between floating the ball for length, and getting the ball to a spot with zip and accuracy.

In comment 16627753 JerseyCityJoe said:

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but we are not getting our money's worth. He can move the team downfield but we need a big shot he shows a noodle arm. That's not enough for his contract.

this. He does nothing we couldn’t get from Mineshew for a lot less cap hit.

There may be Giants front office guys reading this who atart thinking if they can just build a time machine

The truth is … Jones was never good.

In comment 16627757 santacruzom said:

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this at least gives the Giants a palatable, face-saving justification to move on: "We drafted a very fine young QB who undeniably would have reached the pantheon of elite QBs this league has seen. He was well on his way. Unfortunately, injuries robbed him of his unprecedented potential."

I'll gladly concede this obvious bullshit if a promise is made that we never have to talk about him again.

I'm not making a judgement on good vs. not good, simply that one thing he was able to do in the past appears to be something he cannot do today. Just a standalone observation.

What I see is a starting NFL QB with poor accuracy and placement on deep throws that routinely underthrows the deep stuff.

If he connects on any one if the deep misses this season, we’re in a different place.

His long ball used to be a lot better.

In comment 16627773 aka dbrny said:

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What I see is a starting NFL QB with poor accuracy and placement on deep throws that routinely underthrows the deep stuff. If he connects on any one if the deep misses this season, we’re in a different place.

Pffft!!

Money schmoney!

Who needs it?..

"arm strength" is generated from the lower body. I never saw him as someone with elite "arm strength" but he has made a number of intermediate throws where he seemed to have plenty imv. Something is going on with longer balls. He has been short on a few on long on others. Probably a few factors in play. Might be nice to take more shots to the middle of the field but that would require schematic/philosophy changes.

He had deep balls to Nabers and one to Hyatt that were well over thrown. So, we have seen some of overthrows and now some underthrows. Not sure it is an arm strength or more of an accuracy issue.

In comment 16627798 jeffro1 said:

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He had deep balls to Nabers and one to Hyatt that were well over thrown. So, we have seen some of overthrows and now some underthrows. Not sure it is an arm strength or more of an accuracy issue.

Agreed.
It's interesting to note that his underthrows were at home and his overthrows were on the road...just sayin'

In comment 16627729 BlueHurricane said:

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And not because of Jones but because of the fucking separation his targets had on those plays. This board had Jones derangement syndrome at this point. He was so far from the reason we lost last night but it’s all I keep reading about. He will never make most of you happy. I believe 90% of this place only watches the Giants and are dead set on replacing the guy. You can win with this Jones but he isn’t going to carry a team on his back and that can be said for most of the QB’s in the league. How about running for more than 26 yards on 24 attempts. TWENTY SIX fucking yard against the putrid run D we were playing.

If they can win with Jones how come they’re 1-3 with an improved oline, a stud WR and a defense that while hasn’t been great, hasn’t given up more than 21 points in a game?

Runs pretty well but throwing is different. Could still be hampered by that but that’s obviously just a guess.

In comment 16627717 81_Great_Dane said:

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It looks like he just doesn't have the arm to make those throws anymore. Maybe that's a matter of mechanics, maybe it's fixable, but it now looks like he can see the opportunities but can't cash in on them.

I been wondering about that since it was posted (last year?). His long throws have no zip, a lot more air under them, and are generally misguided. Physical limitations might be the reason, hard to see "coaching it out of him" changing his arm that much.

He doesn't have the best step into the throw mechanics. Some is inherent and some due to getting used to not having the time. He already seems to be getting used to having more time in terms of pocket comfort and awareness. Maybe his mechanics improve? Wishful thinking and I don't actually believe it will happen. Just offering an alternative. Bottom line is he can't get the ball deep on time or target.

In comment 16627729 BlueHurricane said:

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And not because of Jones but because of the fucking separation his targets had on those plays. This board had Jones derangement syndrome at this point. He was so far from the reason we lost last night but it’s all I keep reading about. He will never make most of you happy. I believe 90% of this place only watches the Giants and are dead set on replacing the guy. You can win with this Jones but he isn’t going to carry a team on his back and that can be said for most of the QB’s in the league. How about running for more than 26 yards on 24 attempts. TWENTY SIX fucking yard against the putrid run D we were playing.

Sure, very fair point, but how about a QB completing deep passes to wide open WR's? Somehow, everyone else is accountable for his performance except one guy. I wonder why that is?

Thing, particularly last night. The under throw to Slayton was from a ridiculously clean pocket, the cross field throw to Nabers running a post was a pop up. I think its partially the neck and to my amateur eye he doesn’t engage his lower half on some throws, which is a necessity given his average arm strength to begin with.

Whatever the issues are, he can’t drive the ball downfield and its a handicap on the offense.

The problem is his accuracy and his response to previous inaccuracy. Last week, look at the back to back plays when Daboll repeats a playcall that ultimately ends up in downfield throws to Nabors in the slot. The first pass is overthrown… plenty of arm strength, just overthrown. On the next pass, Nabors isn’t nearly as open and the throw isn’t deep enough and was in danger of being intercepted. He’s been overthrowing deep passes the first three games and he tries to recalibrate it and it doesn’t work.

The issue isn’t physical. If I hadn’t seen him throw the deep ball well as a rookie, then I’d assume that he was just too inaccurate to do it at all. I honestly think he has the yips.

this season has been DJ successfully avoiding big hits (mostly). One of my frustrations with him past seasons has been a penchant for taking them which contradicts the dictum from the Great One: “the best ability is availability.”

So he may be taking much better care of his body because he doesn’t feel right and is more afraid he may get injured.

I had been wondering about this during last night’s game. Thanks. christian.

In comment 16627755 ilikethenygiants said:

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After that rookie year, it was obvious that he had the good and if he could keep developing, he'd be a top 12ish QB. That has changed, obviously.

What part was obvious? The four good games he had that year? Or the fact that Shurmur had just pulled off the exact same offensive campaign two years earlier with Case Keenum when he was OC in Minny? Or the possibility that Jones's style of play led to a ton of turnovers if he was allowed too much freedom to operate?

There was a lot of fool's gold in that rookie year. It's somewhat surprising that so many fans are still trying to get that gold appraised five years later.

In comment 16628026 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 16627755 ilikethenygiants said: Quote: After that rookie year, it was obvious that he had the good and if he could keep developing, he'd be a top 12ish QB. That has changed, obviously. What part was obvious? The four good games he had that year? Or the fact that Shurmur had just pulled off the exact same offensive campaign two years earlier with Case Keenum when he was OC in Minny? Or the possibility that Jones's style of play led to a ton of turnovers if he was allowed too much freedom to operate? There was a lot of fool's gold in that rookie year. It's somewhat surprising that so many fans are still trying to get that gold appraised five years later.

His whole career is fools gold. The senior bowl, 2019, 2022, etc.

I think the ACL angle would hold more water if we hadn't seen how demonstrably he struggled getting the ball to the right spot in the Raiders game last year. For anyone who remembers, in the first half he looked very uncomfortable throwing deep.

I'm not saying recovering from an ACL injury isn't impacting his ability to get the ball places downfield. Just that a major turning point was the return from the neck injury game.

last night was about 65 yards and to me it was a pretty smooth process through the release.

What would be helpful is if someone had all the deep throws broken down by where on the field throws were made (l/r sideline, middle) and approximate distance. I think someone posted he has been 2/20 on deep throws. What constitutes deep was not mentioned.

In comment 16627902 56goat said:

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In comment 16627717 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: It looks like he just doesn't have the arm to make those throws anymore. Maybe that's a matter of mechanics, maybe it's fixable, but it now looks like he can see the opportunities but can't cash in on them. I been wondering about that since it was posted (last year?). His long throws have no zip, a lot more air under them, and are generally misguided. Physical limitations might be the reason, hard to see "coaching it out of him" changing his arm that much.

The throw to Slayton in the first half after getting the linemen to jump on a hard count. He had time and space to step into the through and threw it right to Diggs. Even the announcer called it out. Another 5 -10 yards on the throw and it would’ve been a TD.

The throws to Nabers are going to get Nabers seriously hurt. He’s chucking it into double coverage without regard.

Everything is in the 10-15 yard range.

We cannot use Hyatt because he can’t get him the ball.

His read progression, Nabers, Nabers, Nabers, Wan’Dale.

No longer a dual threat QB. His running ability seemed to have diminished as well.

If he gets injured the offense will once again look a lot more potent as it did last year with whomever comes off the bench. Once he heals its right back to the company line. “Jones will be the starter when he’s ready to play, we believe he gives us the best shot to win.” So bogus.

The stubbornness around forcing this guy to be the starter is mind boggling.

The passes he is missing on are not the passes where a QB's arm strength is tested. He showed plenty if arm strength on some of the 10-15 yard throws. For instance, that one pass to slayton where he slid to the left was a tight window throw that required a good amount of zip.

Plus, last week he was overthrowing those same passes. Then yesertday he underthrew them

So, to me, the issue isn't arm strength. It's just that for whatever reason, his accuracy off on those throws is off. Whether it's mechanics, timing, or maybe he's just never been all that good at those throws. Who knows.

So to me it's not an arm strength problem. He doesn't have an elite arm, but he has more than enough arm strength to make both of the throws he missed on to Slayton.

Jones seems capable of floating the ball longer distances. The final throw was ~60 air yards with a ton of air under it. Completely clean launch point, the problem obviously is the ball only traveled to the 4 yard line when it needed to be in the end zone. Hyatt had to completely stop and wait for the ball and it didn't get to him.

Conversely he seems to have the zip to get ball in the some tight windows in < 20 air yard range.

2-14 on throws that traveled 20+ yards isn't a blip, it's a trend.

as it is a middle of the field to the sideline. The bigger mistake was not trying to first pick up 10-15 yards first. Then you can run a more creative play that pressures the D better.

He was accurate his rookie year and on deep balls! What has happened to him?

but an ordinary arm. And what I mean by that is zip and velocity, and the ability to make quality throws without most of his fundamentals lined up.

Sure, he can throw the ball with a lot of arc 50+ yards like most NFL QBs. But he's never had the skill set to consistently stick the ball into tight windows like Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc. NFW. His delivery is all about the wind-up and setting his feet. Jones wasn't blessed with the ability to flick his wrist and stick routes when he is under duress.

For Jones, I actually thought he threw the ball pretty well in Cleveland overall.

In comment 16628281 bw in dc said:

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but an ordinary arm. And what I mean by that is zip and velocity, and the ability to make quality throws without most of his fundamentals lined up. Sure, he can throw the ball with a lot of arc 50+ yards like most NFL QBs. But he's never had the skill set to consistently stick the ball into tight windows like Allen, Mahomes, Herbert, etc. NFW. His delivery is all about the wind-up and setting his feet. Jones wasn't blessed with the ability to flick his wrist and stick routes when he is under duress. For Jones, I actually thought he threw the ball pretty well in Cleveland overall.

Jones had a very respectable 53L/54R MPH at the combine. That's not elite, but for perspective Mahomes was 55L/55R.

Of course that's in a controlled environment and not a perfect predictor of being able to put it on a guy with authority in a game.

I agree, no one really cares much if a guy can float a ball in a measuring contest. The question is from what part of the field a guy can make a throw for a play. That's why the analytics measure line of scrimmage to target, not literal yards traveled.

If you take a look at 2019 Jones in that video, he was making plays comfortably in the 20+ air yard range. He's made 2 of those so far this year.

Really good passers just flick it, like prime Aaron Rodgers. Jones has to wind it up, which messes with timing. This is a major scouting metric and needs to be assessed.

One of the reasons I wad groaning in the Washington game was seeing Jayden Daniels flick the ball 20 yards. It was effortless. It has a big impact.

When I saw him live...
He may never be the same..if he does it will be elsewhere