The argument for giving Daboll & Schoen a swing at QB

...is John Mara putting his thumb on the scale for Jones.

In comment 16630949 allstarjim said:

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1. The mess that was left to this regime was the worst situation for a new GM and coach to possibly be in. Gettleman left this team in a terrible situation wrt the cap. In 2022, Schoen's job was to simply ride out some really bad contracts and try to get the 2023 team in a reasonable cap shape. That team had no business winning as much as they did. Daboll won coach of the year bc this team wasn't supposed to go to the playoffs. They did so bc Daboll maximized what the offense could be with a flawed QB by designing an offense that was functional based on the skills and deficiencies of the QB. But that success led to them not being players in the draft for any highly touted QBs, and there wasn't any cures in free agency outside of giving Derek Carr a huge contract, which they wisely didn't do. Leading to the next point: 2. This team prior to 2022 had not won a playoff game in 11 seasons. But with DJ, they did, and absent any path to a clear upgrade, there was nothing they could do but to re-sign DJ. There's no way coming off that season you could transition to a bridge QB and signal a punt of 2023 to the fans and reset the franchise off the "success" of that season. There's big money involved in these decisions, particularly in selling tickets. Any plan that didn't involve bringing DJ back was not something you could sell to Mara and keep your job, ain't happening. So Schoen did what he had to do, which was sign DJ to an extension, but he wisely did so by making him cuttable after just two seasons. This was key, and that contract, lauded by other organizations, threaded the needle between giving DJ a chance to take control as the franchise QB, satisfying Mara's lust for the QB that gave them a playoff win for the first time in 11 seasons, while at the same time not committing long-term to a QB that really hadn't proven he could beat quality opponents or command a top offense. This point can't be understated... Schoen gave both DJ a chance and the Giants a chance toove on from him relatively quickly. It was a shrewd contract that satisfied all parties in a time where DJ was the only realistic option. 3. Then we have the 2023 season. The Giants lost DJ for most of the season, and lost the backup in Tyrod as well, and still won 6 games, with half of those games with a UDFA rookie QB with legitimate NFL talent shortcomings in Tommy DeVito. That is not something you see at the NFL level. The takeaway here is Daboll outperformed with the situation and roster in both 2022 and 2023, and Schoen made the best of a shit cap situation he walked into in 2022 and made the best of the situation with DJ, allowing themselves to cut him after just 2 seasons without much pain. This was not a normal situation a new regime walks into, and not a normal rebuild situation. It was more of a tear-down and start from scratch that was going to take multiple seasons. And both Schoen and Daboll have done admirably given those circumstances. Sure, there are black marks, like the circus associated with Wink. But it's also true that they would certainly be better off if Daboll wasn't as good of a coach. Imagine if he couldn't get that rookie UDFA QB ready to compete at this level and win those games...they could arguably have Jayden Daniels right now. It's almost a curse that Daboll has outperformed his circumstances...so absolutely, I want this regime to have the chance to draft a legitimate franchise QB that they believe in. I wholeheartedly believe they deserve the chance to develop their guy, because what some of you don't understand is this organization was a dumpster fire before they got here, and lesser regimes (currently running organizations...looking at you Jacksonville, Cleveland, and plenty more), would've done far, far worse given what they walked into. This team will not compete until the last big stain of the Gettleman era is a memory, that being Daniel Jones. The right leadership team is in place to bring the Giants back to prominence, if the get the QB successor plan right. They've built a solid foundation to allow that eventual successor to walk into a good situation, and that in and of itself was no easy feat given where this team was two seasons ago. You can suffer another non-competitive season to get through the DJ era at this point. Do it and have some patience. If they eff up the successor plan, I'll lead the parade to replace these guys, but criticizing them for their performance to this point is simply ludicrous to me. They are 17-21-1 with arguably the worst roster and cap situation a new regime can walk into, saying nothing of how bad it got with the injuries last year and the discord between the HC and DC. I would expect an average NFL GM and HC to have no better than half that amount of wins given the same circumstances Schoen and Daboll have had in their fairly short tenure here. Where you see failure, I see a ton to be encouraged by and at long last, an optimism I haven't felt since 2008.

This is a great post and the bolded is what I think a lot of BBI ignores. This put Schoen in a tough spot.

I admit I go back and fourth on this issue. But, the NYG situation is not an apples to apples comparison to Chicago and Washington. 2022 really impacted the timeline.

we've discussed it over and over and over. A lot of us just don't buy it since even after the "magical" 2022 run many of us still wanted to move on from Jones.

Sean, two people with friends close to the organization have told me management, not ownership was the driving force behind the Jones contract. That's not to imply ownership isn't fond of him and hasn't made public comments to complicate matters.

These are second hand observations, and I don't know these inside sources, so take it for what you will.

Ultimately, the Giants made a richer commitment to Jones than required. They had the franchise tender, which Schoen flat out said was an alternative to 5th year option before the season started.

The Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees, and what they received in exchange was the choice to receive 4 years of services.

Look at the 3/100M deal with 40M guaranteed Mayfield earned from Tampa off of arguably a better season. That's what a skeptical commitment looks like.

Yes, you can draft one with a high pick, take a chance with a lower pick, sign one in FA, etc. Either way we need to do SOMETHING after this year.

In comment 16631018 christian said:

Quote:

Sean, two people with friends close to the organization have told me management, not ownership was the driving force behind the Jones contract. That's not to imply ownership isn't fond of him and hasn't made public comments to complicate matters. These are second hand observations, and I don't know these inside sources, so take it for what you will. Ultimately, the Giants made a richer commitment to Jones than required. They had the franchise tender, which Schoen flat out said was an alternative to 5th year option before the season started. The Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees, and what they received in exchange was the choice to receive 4 years of services. Look at the 3/100M deal with 40M guaranteed Mayfield earned from Tampa off of arguably a better season. That's what a skeptical commitment looks like.

Well, if that is true that is very telling and changes things. Woodstock has said the same here. It's an example of Schoen leaning too aggressively into positional value.

I hope management (I include Daboll in this phrase) evaluated Jones, and concluded this is a guy we believe we can mold into a championship contender. That's an evaluation mistake.

What I hope they didn't do is conclude "what choice do we have?" or "by the end of the Summer the AAV won't look so bad."

The worst thing you can do is shop for a good deal. That's how you end up with a shirt a half size too small, because it was on the sales rack at Ross. That's an intelligence mistake.

Was a strategic mistake that dooms teams for a couple of years afterwards.

But I am more scared of Mara’s obvious incompetence than Schoen’s first year mistake. One can learn from the mistake; the other has years of evidence showing he is incapable. So I lean in for a 4th year of Schoen and Daboll.

In comment 16630880 BlackLight said:

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People are such idiots. They're fed up with losing, but ask them the way the forward, it's waiting for Cooper Manning's kid to declare for the draft two years from now.

In many ways it's exactly how the Giants operate. The Manning name is a comfortable one, and as such the idea of drafting him (to many) doesn't carry the inherent risk of drafting a different QB.

"Manning" is a sure thing. Penix or McCarthy or Ward or Beck or Dart are potential busts.

In comment 16631056 christian said:

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I hope management (I include Daboll in this phrase) evaluated Jones, and concluded this is a guy we believe we can mold into a championship contender. That's an evaluation mistake. What I hope they didn't do is conclude "what choice do we have?" or "by the end of the Summer the AAV won't look so bad." The worst thing you can do is shop for a good deal. That's how you end up with a shirt a half size too small, because it was on the sales rack at Ross. That's an intelligence mistake.

I think likely they just misevaluated him. My overall point is Schoen has not had a clear path to acquire a lottery QB.

2022: weak QB draft
2023: picked 25th
2024: picked 6th after Williams, Daniels & Maye off the board

Had NYG gone 3-14 in 2022, it would have been easier for Schoen. The job for Poles & Peters had less roadblocks then Schoen. Does that matter? No. But, it adds some context as to where they are today.

Ultimately the question becomes, is it a fireable offense?

to draft a top QB, how is that not an indictment of Schoen’s talent acquisition? It’s year 3, and Jones has been serviceable, so where is the disconnect? A 3-4 win season would be a sign that Schoen has done a shitty job of team-building. Why in the world would you let him pick the next QB?

Do they have tenure or something? Do they need to be impeached like a government official?

We can just fire them for total failure to achieve the objectives to which they were hired

In comment 16631018 christian said:

Quote:

Sean, two people with friends close to the organization have told me management, not ownership was the driving force behind the Jones contract. That's not to imply ownership isn't fond of him and hasn't made public comments to complicate matters. These are second hand observations, and I don't know these inside sources, so take it for what you will. Ultimately, the Giants made a richer commitment to Jones than required. They had the franchise tender, which Schoen flat out said was an alternative to 5th year option before the season started. The Giants gave Jones 82M in guarantees, and what they received in exchange was the choice to receive 4 years of services. Look at the 3/100M deal with 40M guaranteed Mayfield earned from Tampa off of arguably a better season. That's what a skeptical commitment looks like.

I definitely think Schoen/Daboll own the Jones contract, but one critical difference between Washington and NYG last (since Sean is making the comparison) is that Washington got a new owner who has never given a fuck about not tanking or preserving "faces of the franchise" and immediately proceeded to trade Sweat and Young and allow the team to bottom out. Meanwhile, in Giants land, we heard about a reluctance to trade Barkley and immediately after the 49-17 Cowboys game, Vacchiano/Stapleton decided to spin up a few hot seat articles for Daboll.

But then again, Schoen did use that extra 2nd pick from the Williams to execute a win-now move, so who knows where the responsibility lies for this team yet again being in some half-assed state between competing and rebuilding.

That's a big issue too. The Burns trade. The Mike makes the point that makes the most sense, the best thing is probably just a complete reset at GM/HC/QB. It doesn't really matter that Schoen was dealt a tougher hand, but I think it's noteworthy. The franchise is just stuck making half measures.

1. McAdoo inherits most of Coughlin's staff.
2. Gettleman and Shurmur inherit Eli.
3. Judge inherits Gettleman.
4. Schoen and Daboll inherit Jones.

There has never been a complete start over. Something has always been lingering from the prior regime.

In comment 16630930 NYGmen58 said:

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They had every opportunity to go in the direction of their choice after the 2022 season but they chose to give Jones the big deal that he got. Remember this! They wanted Jones. He may have been drafted by the previous regime but they chose to commit to him. There is no "give them another chance". They made their bed with Jones. We all knew that when they re-signed him.

The WC win painted them into a corner.

They've picked 11 players in top 100, committed something like 700M in contracts (let me double check that number), and replaced all but a handful of players.

They've had two defensive coordinators, two special teams coordinators, and stripped duties from an offensive coordinator. They're on round two of a bunch of position coaches.

If Jones stays healthy, this is their plan. If the plan sucks, how can ownership trust them to come up with the next plan?

In comment 16631064 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

In comment 16630880 BlackLight said: Quote: People are such idiots. They're fed up with losing, but ask them the way the forward, it's waiting for Cooper Manning's kid to declare for the draft two years from now. In many ways it's exactly how the Giants operate. The Manning name is a comfortable one, and as such the idea of drafting him (to many) doesn't carry the inherent risk of drafting a different QB. "Manning" is a sure thing. Penix or McCarthy or Ward or Beck or Dart are potential busts.

Arch's dad was a pro prospect too.
I'm sure Arch has been screened for spinal stenosis, but football is cruel.

Birds in bushes v bird in hand.

You draft who you can, when you can. And figure out quickly if they're any good.

In comment 16631088 Blueworm said:

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They had every opportunity to go in the direction of their choice after the 2022 season but they chose to give Jones the big deal that he got. Remember this! They wanted Jones. He may have been drafted by the previous regime but they chose to commit to him. There is no "give them another chance". They made their bed with Jones. We all knew that when they re-signed him. The WC win painted them into a corner.

The WC win earned Jones a contract, but it didn't predestine this contract.

Franchising Jones wasn't some exotic maneuver. Schoen literally said before the season it was an option if Jones had a good season.

Can't argue it. It's going to be a critical decision at the end of the season because I think they will be around 6-11.

I still think there is a good HC in Daboll, but he's done himself no favors.

Schoen is nothing special. Daboll may be a solid lieutenant but he is not a head man. Their judgment has been poor. They got big heads over a fast start in 2022 and utterly failed to properly analyze what they had on the roster in order to run it back in 2023. In 2023, inexplicably, they chalked it all up to Jones getting hurt and failed to get anything for Barkley when they had decided they didn't want to re-sign him.

Neither had or have the gravitas or resume to nod politely when Jawn makes his "suggestions" and then go do what they want or make the case as to why his suggestion is stupid.

And please, please, please let's stop with the Arch Manning Wonderlust. This is just the sort of nostalgic move that got us here in the first place. If he checks all the boxes as though his name was John Doe, that is one thing, but let's get away from the "draft him because of his last name" bullshit.

In comment 16630781 kelly said:

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lets give Schoen and Daboll the right to draft our next QB? That is something only the Giants would do.

Is it really that crazy? If we finish with a top 5 pick then we are going to be selecting from a pool of 2 or 3 QBs - are the odds of them hitting or missing really any different? To me it’s less about who they pick and more how they going about doing it and moving the team forward.

In comment 16631100 Sean said:

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Can't argue it. It's going to be a critical decision at the end of the season because I think they will be around 6-11. I still think there is a good HC in Daboll, but he's done himself no favors.

I think in the right circumstances Daboll could be a very good head coach. I like him a lot.

I know HK's was made for TV, but the way Daboll was portrayed and the way he comes off at press conferences, he seems very deferential to Schoen. And Schoen is a fucking wimp.

My view on Schoen completely changed when he was complaining about the Barkley negotiations.

In comment 16631065 Sean said:

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Ultimately the question becomes, is it a fireable offense?

Paying Jones was, on it's own, a fireable offense. Not picking any QB anywhere in 3 drafts, also fireable. Backing Jones up with Lock - fireable.

These guys are bad at their jobs. Get people that are better.

1. blowing their first OL rebuild attempt (bobby johnson, evan neal, mark glowinski, josh ezeudu, marcus mckethan, etc.) - by the GM's own words last year it was "embarrassing". he can keep rewatching that evan neal bama tape all he wants but that's on them. Charles Cross is currently the league's highest graded OT and bobby johnson is currently coaching the 3-1 washington commanders OL.

2. not fielding a top half defense in 3 seasons in an age where there is commentary about changing the rules because defense is "too easy". any NYG fan feel that way? when they hired wink they made him one of the highest paid defensive coordinators in football (may have been highest). year 1 he got more out of less but year 2 they went out and signed okereke, drafted banks, signed depth players and it regressed. they got take 2 with bowen and added burns this year, so far not much better.

3. breaking from their own 'smart, tough, dependable' mantra. which of those buckets did waller, slayton, campbell check? that was ~$30m spent in the 2023 offseason that may as well have been lit on fire at a time when they could have just gotten the league leader in TDs signed for less than he ended up getting from Philly. he'd already be playing in his last guaranteed year right now too. also could have brought back Julian Love who is currently the highest graded safety in football. he was smart tough dependable and he also wanted to extend here. he actually gave NYG the chance to match his deal.

4. the blow up with Wink. I kind of dont care about the drama, though it's not a great look, but the results of the relationship spoke for themselves. Kevin Oconnell hired Brian Flores and he took an awful unit that he got balling. They didnt end up threatening to fight each other.

5. not strategically hedging the QB position better. even if they still liked jones coming into this year, HE IS A RUNNING QB OFF A TORN ACL!!!! There was no guarantee he'd be at 100% for the start of the season or camp at the time FA/draft happened. There was no excuse to not better prepare themselves than Lock, also no excuse to not trade for one of the cheaper alternatives to save some of the $5m they paid lock. they 'burned the boats' and tried to shotgun jones into something he wasnt in 2022 by letting barkley walk.

6. embarrassing in-game/roster management especially with special teams. this started last year with the gano stuff and obviously crescendo'd with the washington forfeit.

bottom line we aren't seeing very much progression anywhere and more and more just hear excuses. their own decisions and actions at QB are not an excuse that should save them. if they want salvation there is only 1 way, to show progress and win some games. if not let's try hiring someone who actually has a history of doing that next time instead of hoping a first timer can learn on the job.

In comment 16631017 Shirk130 said:

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we've discussed it over and over and over. A lot of us just don't buy it since even after the "magical" 2022 run many of us still wanted to move on from Jones.

So did I but we don't work for Mara.

I remember specifically what was out there if we moved on. You had Derek Carr, Jimmy G, Taylor Heinicke, Jacoby Brissett, Mike White, Andy Dalton, and some less heralded guys.

My preference was a bridge year with Brissett. But I knew that could never happen given the dynamics of the season prior and ownership. You put yourself in Schoen's shoes and you walk into Mara's office and tell him you're not going to attempt to re-sign Jones, you want to sign a Brissett or Andy Dalton to reset the franchise and hopefully get a top pick for your QB. I know exactly how that's going to go for you.

Mara is going to give you two options...this team has never made decisions like this and Mara expects to win every year even against all logic or practicality. He will dream up the most implausible scenario in his head, and think it could happen, and the Giants could win the SB with DJ. Maybe Eli ruined him for this in 2007, lol.

And I know many of you are going to bring up the franchise tag option. The eventual deal allowed Daniel's cap # was $19M for 2023. The non-exclusive tag was $32M and the exclusive tag was $45M.

These numbers were problematic with a bad roster, and more than $48M in cap hit charges for Leonard Williams and Kenny Golladay, neither of whom were on the 2023 roster.

Schoen's first order of business for the Giants was to bring soundness to the Giants' cap, and I think people have forgotten he was still dealing with Gentleman's legacy contracts in terms of significant dead money just last year.

It's doubtful you get Okereke in here had you done a tag with Daniel, and then you still have Barkley, who the team wanted to use the tag on, at $10M, so they didn't have to commit higher long-term money to a RB, which isn't how Schoen wanted to prioritize cap allocation.

So a deal made the most sense, I was bummed as any when I saw how giddy Mara was about that Vikings win, bc I knew we were going to be stuck with DJ for longer, and I was pretty happy that Schoen gave himself the ability to move on after two seasons.

Since that contract was done, my eyes have always been on 2025. And I thought Schoen made the best out of that, I thought it would be longer.

In case you were wondering, cutting DJ this off-season would result in a $22M cap hit next with nothing going forward. With a rookie QB on the roster, that is a very manageable number for the position.

In comment 16631099 christian said:

Quote:

In comment 16631088 Blueworm said: Quote: They had every opportunity to go in the direction of their choice after the 2022 season but they chose to give Jones the big deal that he got. Remember this! They wanted Jones. He may have been drafted by the previous regime but they chose to commit to him. There is no "give them another chance". They made their bed with Jones. We all knew that when they re-signed him. The WC win painted them into a corner. The WC win earned Jones a contract, but it didn't predestine this contract. Franchising Jones wasn't some exotic maneuver. Schoen literally said before the season it was an option if Jones had a good season.

I honestly don't know why you and some others put souch stock into what a GM or coach publicly states. Of course he's going to say that. You don't sign Al to DJ's agent that you're not willing to use that tool in the toolbox and weaken your negotiation position.

If Schoen was so sold on Jones, he would've given him more security than what was basically a 2-yr prove it deal, and that's what this was. With a lot of money tied up in performance incentives. It was a better deal in terms of money and cap flexibility than the deal Derek Carr got, so Schoen didn't overpay, even though I thought that at the time. Given what QBs are getting now, it's a bargain.

People are such idiots. They're fed up with losing, but ask them the way the forward, it's waiting for Cooper Manning's kid to declare for the draft two years from now. [/quote]


The way forward is move on from Jones at season end and Schoen/Daboll a

The way forward is to reestablish a competitive QB culture the very next and expunge all excuse making that comes from removing competition and anointing
one

You do that by signing a legitimate veteran QB in FA as the Bucs did with Mayfield and the Vikings did with Darnold. But this needs to be a QB on a 1 yr deal

You then add an asset in the draft at the position with as high a pick as feasible

Potentially you could sign a Darnold or Fields. But not if they wind up playing so well that they are getting multiyear big time deals.

Others are Trey Lance, Zach Wilson, Mac Jones.

Andy Dalton is a guy I would consider as well.

In the draft you are looking at spending a 1st-3rd rd pick on a QB. But it cant be either - full bloom love on 1 or QB or bust.

Find a QB to draft and if he comes in here and isnt great, you have an option to move forward in season with your other QB. Above all dont annoint this guy the franchise even if we spend the 2 pick

Most likely the way to go with a high draft pick is to allow this guy a year to sit while a QB like a Dalton establishes a professional atmosphere at QB.

Id say an ideal QB room is Dalton, high draft pick (rd 1), a reclamation like Wilson/Jones/Lance

Or a Fields, draft pick (rd 2-3) and an older vet like Flacco

Failing to realize that 2022 was bullshit.

Self-scouting has been one of the Giants' absolute worst problems, and these guys don't bring any improvement in that area.

And one more general thought: how could you watch Hard Knocks and come away feeling like this was a competent group? The whole thing was a clown show.

In comment 16631272 allstarjim said:

Quote:

It's doubtful you get Okereke in here had you done a tag with Daniel, and then you still have Barkley...

As I've shared a number of times, this was not a difficult outcome to achieve.

If the Giants had used the non-exclusive franchise tender on Jones, his 2023 cap charge would have been ~32M. As it stood, after his restructure, Jones's cap charge on 2023 was 15.4M. The difference being ~16.5M.

To have the exact offseason, including signing Bobby Okereke, A'shawn Robinson, etc. the Giants needed to make 3 changes.

The Giants simply chose to re-sign Jones to a multi-year deal, instead of choosing to re-sign Barkely to a multi-year, because that's what they wanted to do.

1) If Jones had been franchised, Barkley by definition could not be. So he would need to have been re-signed or let go.
2) The Giants would likely not have had enough cap space on 2023 to sign Parris Campbell for 1/5M.
3) The Giants would likely needed to move more of Jacksons

These are real numbers that reflect what happened and what could have happened. These are literally the only numbers that needed to be adjusted. Everything else could have remained identical.

RE: Derek Carr that's not true.

At signing Derek Carr signed a 4/150M agreement with 60M fully guaranteed, with 70M practically guaranteed. At signing, the Saints effectively committed to 70M in cash for two years of service.

The Giants effectively committed to 82M for two years of service.

The Saints have then restructured and functionally guaranteed more money because Derek Carr actually played well last year, and they intend to keep him next year as well.

He stumbled into it with a lot of luck and being a skilled tactical player. The pedigree QBs everyone loves in the NCAA are hot and miss. They play simple schemes and the defensive talent is incredibly patchy. So Purdy is exactly the opposite of Jones. Not super athletic, tall but fast shooter and patient. Tactically smarter with better coaching and good teammates. Jones is not 100% the problem but he is one of the broken legs on a broken 4 legged chair

In comment 16631296 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Failing to realize that 2022 was bullshit. Self-scouting has been one of the Giants' absolute worst problems, and these guys don't bring any improvement in that area. And one more general thought: how could you watch Hard Knocks and come away feeling like this was a competent group? The whole thing was a clown show.

I was out on Schoen the Nov 27th press conference when he said

“We started off, very good drive against Dallas there to open the season, we get a false start, a bad snap, a blocked field goal for a touchdown, and it kind of snowballed from there.”

And

“A: I mean, I've seen it. You guys all saw last season. The guy won 10 games. He won a road playoff game for the Giants. You guys saw the preseason. I just think we got punched in the nose early on and we dug ourselves a hole and we weren't able to get out of it.“

And

“because it is, it's hard to go in and compete week in and week out if you don't have your best players. One of the guys was telling me the other day, going into the season, if you told me (tight end Darren) Waller, (tackle) Andrew Thomas, Saquon and Daniel would play less than 40 plays together, I wouldn't have been real excited about that, and that's the reality of how it played out.“

Once the GM starts with the excuse making and pointing out nonsense such as the preseason drive.

It was a litany of excuses throughout from injuries, to the schedule, to “snowballing “ effects. The singling of some players and positions but not others. The rose colored glasses on Jones despite a historically bad season and the lies & manipulation over Wink.


A: What was the report, I didn't see – what was the report?
Q. You didn't see the report?
A: That Wink's not going to make it through the season?

Q. Jay Glazer from FOX reported that there is a chance that Martindale might not make it through the season and that he probably wouldn't be back after the year. It was yesterday during FOX's national broadcast.

A: I didn't realize he said that he wasn't going to make through the year. Yeah, I don't know,


This held up well

A: Listen, there is always going to be noise. There is a lot of noise in this market. It is what it is. I know what we think inside those four walls and that's what matters. I've got a great relationship with Wink, I don't know where some of this stuff comes from.”

It was obvious that the emperor had no clothes, he was in denial and had zero plan to right the ship. At 4-8 that moment demanded leadership through clarity and truth and he gave none.

It left me hopeless because the GM was walking around saying dont see what you see. See what im telling you to see

In comment 16631296 Go Terps said:

Quote:

Failing to realize that 2022 was bullshit. Self-scouting has been one of the Giants' absolute worst problems, and these guys don't bring any improvement in that area. And one more general thought: how could you watch Hard Knocks and come away feeling like this was a competent group? The whole thing was a clown show.

This

It's possible this year's draft could save Joe Schoen but he's had 3 years to improve the Giants roster and I think it's still a bottom 5 NFL roster. I think he's failed. Plus the two of them work for detached from reality, entitled, lucky sperm club members who surround themselves with yes men who shield them from transparency and accountability. The GM and HC are always the fall guys while the job for life Mara football bureaucracy survives regime after regime. That's the Giants Way.

In comment 16631421 arniefez said:

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It's possible this year's draft could save Joe Schoen but he's had 3 years to improve the Giants roster and I think it's still a bottom 5 NFL roster. I think he's failed. Plus the two of them work for detached from reality, entitled, lucky sperm club members who surround themselves with yes men who shield them from transparency and accountability. The GM and HC are always the fall guys while the job for life Mara football bureaucracy survives regime after regime. That's the Giants Way.

It seems you've come around in the last few weeks. I recall you saying you wanted Schoen & Daboll to be back a few weeks ago.

Quote:

Nick Falato @nickfalato · The #Giants currently rank dead last in the NFL in yards per carry. They average just 3.4 YPC through four weeks. Their only successful rushing game was Week 2 at Washington.

anyone care to guess who is currently at the top of the NFL with a career best 6 ypc despite mediocre at best QB play?

In comment 16630839 The Mike said:

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Literally and symbolically, the DJ Era must be excised from this franchise with zero ambiguity or this nightmare will continue.

Terminate with extreme prejudice. Great post.

In comment 16631350 christian said:

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RE: Derek Carr that's not true. At signing Derek Carr signed a 4/150M agreement with 60M fully guaranteed, with 70M practically guaranteed. At signing, the Saints effectively committed to 70M in cash for two years of service. The Giants effectively committed to 82M for two years of service. The Saints have then restructured and functionally guaranteed more money because Derek Carr actually played well last year, and they intend to keep him next year as well.

With more dead money in future years against the cap and a void year. Contracts like that is what Schoen is trying to avoid. I'll concede the more money GTD over two years, I believe I had read $100M of Carr's contract was GTD.

But if both QB's were jettisoned after 2 seasons from their respective ball clubs, the future cap implications are friendlier to the Giants.

In year 1 and probably in year 2 (given the injuries)

Despite that, he came into year 3 on the hot seat. If he wins at par with talent this year (6 or 7 games), he will probably be fired. That is not a serious approach to running an organization.

Say we draft a QB next year and win 5 games. Is the next coach on the hot seat going into year 2? Because that will have been the case with the last 4 coaches.

successor in the offseason (or choose to stick with Jones in 2025; God help us).

Giants fired McAdoo after 2 years (technically less than), and then Shurmur after 2 years). Judge wasn't going to get fired after 2 years, with Mara coming out and saying that it's a bad perception only to give a head coach two years. But Judge forced Mara's hand with his unhinged press conference and the infamous QB sneaks.

Daboll got us to the playoffs in Year 1, then we regressed big time in Year 2. Assuming we don't really improve in Year 3, that would have been two lackluster years. Again, not something Mara is going to want to go for. Do you really want prospective hires to know if you have a bad year, you're now on the hot seat and coaching for your job.

As for Schoen, Giants have had 5 GMs in 45 years. Many of us have had more cars in that time. They're not dumping Schoen after two bad years.

if DJ is overpaid. In all likelihood, any medium-long term contract would see him being the starter today. We could have used the cap differently, possibly kept/obtained some talent, but DJ's role as starting QB is probably the same. The amount of overpay probably isn't going to dramatically change the talent level of the team. The size of the contract does not dictate the level of his play.

Bottom line is that DJ is the starter chosen by Schoen/Daboll/Mara. It's a stretch to say any one of them did not have a hand in DJ's current role. He is their QB. I don't buy any line that has Mara the sole/main culprit with S/D having limited say.

DJ will not, by himself, cause the loss of a job by Schoen/Daboll. The sum total of all their choices/actions will seal their fate. If they've done enough right to have them return, they'll get the chance to bring in a new QB. If not, then either a new GM, and/or a new HC will be working with a new QB. My bet is Schoen returning, with Daboll being TBD.

In comment 16631514 Bramton1 said:

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successor in the offseason (or choose to stick with Jones in 2025; God help us). Giants fired McAdoo after 2 years (technically less than), and then Shurmur after 2 years). Judge wasn't going to get fired after 2 years, with Mara coming out and saying that it's a bad perception only to give a head coach two years. But Judge forced Mara's hand with his unhinged press conference and the infamous QB sneaks. Daboll got us to the playoffs in Year 1, then we regressed big time in Year 2. Assuming we don't really improve in Year 3, that would have been two lackluster years. Again, not something Mara is going to want to go for. Do you really want prospective hires to know if you have a bad year, you're now on the hot seat and coaching for your job. As for Schoen, Giants have had 5 GMs in 45 years. Many of us have had more cars in that time. They're not dumping Schoen after two bad years.

Last year was not lackluster. It was a shitty year that saw a fair amount of coaching shuffle.

If Daboll can't show that he's on track to return to 2022 form (which not all that high a bar), then he shouldn't come back for a fourth year.

2 years is a quick hook. 3, not so quick. Daboll got 3. results are still TBD. 1 good year, 1 shitty. getting year 3 up to lackluster might see him return.

The foundations of the franchise. The wins and losses come later as a result of foundations built properly.

The roster should be constructed around the things that consistently win games year after year and that begins with the OL and DL.

Do have lines built that consistently rush the ball/protect the passer and that will stop the run/protect the passer?

Without those two things in place you simply cannot win long term in the NFL.

You need a QB who can execute the offense, lead the team, puts team over self and operate under pressure when everything else is going wrong.

Signs this is not happening is when you see big money thrown at prior problems and rushed problem solving near or during the season.

You would like to build this team on strong foundations of cap and draft. The roster should be managed as cap healthy but not pushing off mistakes to eat up cap space and you should be able to let replaceable talent go and acquire extra draft picks and replace in the draft with a consistent/coherent draft strategy on replacing who is leaving.

They should at least be moving toward these strategies and not adding on to prior problems. Ie cutting players that they signed in FA, trades for more dead cap hits later. Ie needing to sign players in FA to replace failed draft picks. These are signs that this is not a strategy being employed by the GM/HC.

For coaching, you should be able to see evidence of player progressions each year across the board and not just 1 or 2 guys. Evidence that players acquired are being utilized in the ways the coaching promised. You should be able to see offensive & defensive play calling that matches what was promised in player acquisition to the point that an identity emerges of the team. You should see some consistent evidence of a coaching staff that has a plan that makes other teams try and stop it over a staff that relies on trying outsmart people week in and week out. Another sign it’s not working is players who get worse the longer they hear and players who being used in different ways for which they were not acquired.

The teams that can consistently do these things will win consistently nearly every season.

In comment 16631454 allstarjim said:

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Derek Carr that's not true. At signing Derek Carr signed a 4/150M agreement with 60M fully guaranteed, with 70M practically guaranteed. At signing, the Saints effectively committed to 70M in cash for two years of service. The Giants effectively committed to 82M for two years of service. The Saints have then restructured and functionally guaranteed more money because Derek Carr actually played well last year, and they intend to keep him next year as well. With more dead money in future years against the cap and a void year. Contracts like that is what Schoen is trying to avoid. I'll concede the more money GTD over two years, I believe I had read $100M of Carr's contract was GTD. But if both QB's were jettisoned after 2 seasons from their respective ball clubs, the future cap implications are friendlier to the Giants.

Restructuring Jackson would have increased dead money in 2024 by about 8M, but the net cap impact would have left the Giants with net cap benefit of +22M in 2024.

You can see in the table I posted above that the Giants would have enjoyed a net cap benefit in every year from 2023-2025.

RE: as the contracts stood at signing the minimum the Giants would have paid Jones for 2 years of service was 82M. The minimum the Saints would have owed Carr for 2 years of service was 70M.

The Saints have restructured his deal since, assuring him 3 years of pay, because he's actually pretty good and they don't want to cut him.

He's hired 4 coaches, which is a pretty big sample. YMMV, but I think Daboll is clearly the best of the 4.

He's hired 2 GMs - less of a sample, so it's harder to say anything definitive- but Schoen is a million miles better than the other one.

I think 1) it's likely that the next guys are worse, 2) it's bad to have people constantly operating with their jobs on the line, 3) it might be good to give people an opportunity to learn, improve, and work through adversity.

I know i know - be tough, tough business, get results all that. But if you're firing 5 coaches in 10 years, you are doing something wrong

In comment 16631647 Jerry in_DC said:

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He's hired 4 coaches, which is a pretty big sample. YMMV, but I think Daboll is clearly the best of the 4. He's hired 2 GMs - less of a sample, so it's harder to say anything definitive- but Schoen is a million miles better than the other one. I think 1) it's likely that the next guys are worse, 2) it's bad to have people constantly operating with their jobs on the line, 3) it might be good to give people an opportunity to learn, improve, and work through adversity. I know i know - be tough, tough business, get results all that. But if you're firing 5 coaches in 10 years, you are doing something wrong

The Knicks (Dolan) hired better people

In comment 16631659 HardTruth said:

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In comment 16631647 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: He's hired 4 coaches, which is a pretty big sample. YMMV, but I think Daboll is clearly the best of the 4. He's hired 2 GMs - less of a sample, so it's harder to say anything definitive- but Schoen is a million miles better than the other one. I think 1) it's likely that the next guys are worse, 2) it's bad to have people constantly operating with their jobs on the line, 3) it might be good to give people an opportunity to learn, improve, and work through adversity. I know i know - be tough, tough business, get results all that. But if you're firing 5 coaches in 10 years, you are doing something wrong The Knicks (Dolan) hired better people

This is exactly the point. We need to get our Leon Rose asap. Until we do, we should shuffle GMs in and out of here as quickly as possible. The idea that we have to suffer through more time than necessary of Joe Schoen just because that is the Giants Way is precisely the problem. There is no shame in fast failure. Only in prolonged ineptitude.

I'd rather have Leon Black than Joe Schoen.

If they can get out of the Jones contract after this year and bring in a new Vet ( Darnold ) and draft a QB in the next years draft then lets see how 2025 goes.

We keep starting over and that is not good for team development.

In comment 16631724 Rjanyg said:

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If they can get out of the Jones contract after this year and bring in a new Vet ( Darnold ) and draft a QB in the next years draft then lets see how 2025 goes. We keep starting over and that is not good for team development.

Continuity doesn’t help if its bad continuity