Nick Falato
@nickfalato
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5m
The #Giants currently rank dead last in the NFL in yards per carry. They average just 3.4 YPC through four weeks.
Their only successful rushing game was Week 2 at Washington. |
in 2022 as a team they were 5th best at 4.8 yards per carry and had 4th most rushing TDs with 20 despite the worse OL.
they had 150 rushing 1st downs so they averaged almost 10 per game, so far this year they only have 21 which so about half that number. both barkley and jones were among the top 10 in rushing first downs that year from individual players.
amazingly they dont even have that many more passing first downs this year - they had 170 in 2022 so exactly 10 per game, this year they have 44 so 11 per game.
so essentially they strategically sacrificed what was the most productive feature of their 1 successful season and with a QB coming off a torn ACL increased the degree of difficulty for the whole offense.
nabers has obviously been spectacular but if their entire strategic plan was force feeding a rookie with the most targets ever while praying he has the stamina/durability to handle that many hits, that doesnt seem like such a good plan.
because id imagine going into this season the plan was to succeed like 2022 and not embarrass themselves like 2023?
a) no one cares about Singltary who is on his 3rd team in 3 years for a reason.
b) Jones scares no one with his passing; teams are free to crowd the LOS. The Jonesians here do not understand that interplay between the passing game and the run game
c) Runyan is not a good run blocker. He is here for his pass blocking. Van Roten is on his 7th team in his career and that is not counting a year in the CFL. He's only in there due to the failure of the draft picks to take over the RT position.
Well, they could have done both. I’m not advocating that it should have happened, but it could have.
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And why is 2022 being pointed to like a success story? That offense stunk too.
It's been 3 years of lousy football, with the first being fairly propped up by luck and the NFL's parity structure.
The whole operation is a mess.
they didnt need to not sign Elumeanor. singletary and barkley have the same cap hits this year, so technically if they just did the same contract philly did they didn't need to do anything differently.
So what's the point?
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And why is 2022 being pointed to like a success story? That offense stunk too.
It's been 3 years of lousy football, with the first being fairly propped up by luck and the NFL's parity structure.
The whole operation is a mess.
you can't pick and choose when to apply the 'you are what your record is' principle.
yes the league is full of parity. goes without saying. nobody is saying they deserve a medal for 2022, it was in many ways the bare minimum of what should be expected any season - competitiveness in every game, win more than you lose even if only by 1.
the goal should obviously always be progress which 2 years later should clearly be improvement on 2022, especially if it was as low of a bar as everyone seems to think it is. they have had 2 chances to improve on 2022 in whatever ways they saw fit and havent.
So what's the point?
who gives a shit whether it was smoke and mirrors or not? they have now had 2 separate seasons to adapt an offense better than smoke/mirrors and haven't. that's the point.
the worse you think the 2022 offense the easier it should have been to field something better right?
This organization is not honest with itself.
This organization is not honest with itself.
how many starting players from the 2022 offense remain? 3? and one of them is Andrew Thomas. not sure how we wouldn't call that a rebuild.
so as usual your gripe is with QB where the actual alternatives were mostly nibbling around margins. they couldnt get up for Daniels (or Stroud) and tried to move up for Maye. even if they could have added either what confidence do we have that any of them would have succeeded here anyway? remember the 2024 guys wouldn't have nabers.
The worst part about all of this is that the owner likely thinks along these lines as well.
which qb would you have chosen in either the 2023 or 2024 offseasons that has this team in a different position today?
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Teams caught on to what the Giants were doing and it stopped being effective in the second half. It was scheming around a weak QB, and it was also reliant on Jones running for 700 yards at a 6 ypc clip, something he'll never do again.
So what's the point?
who gives a shit whether it was smoke and mirrors or not? they have now had 2 separate seasons to adapt an offense better than smoke/mirrors and haven't. that's the point.
the worse you think the 2022 offense the easier it should have been to field something better right?
Pointing out that it was smoke and mirrors is saying that it wasn't replicable. Many fans, and apparently the FO, thought it would be easy to return to the heights of 2022, but it was never realistic because it was...smoke and mirrors...
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And, shockingly enough, that hasn't paid off despite a better OL and a gifted young star receiver
which qb would you have chosen in either the 2023 or 2024 offseasons that has this team in a different position today?
I don't think that is the point. The point is even if we drafted JJM and were in the same position, we could believe we are investing in the future and look to better times ahead. DJ is a dead end, he isn't getting any better
The goal of an offense is to create points. Pushing the ball down the field to score points was the goal this year. Despite better Oline blocking and the addition of a budding superstar WR, it isn't happening.
The goal was not to have the highest average YPC we could - duplicating an offense that didn't score enough points. It was to improve the offense. That isn't happening.
a) no one cares about Singltary who is on his 3rd team in 3 years for a reason.
b) Jones scares no one with his passing; teams are free to crowd the LOS. The Jonesians here do not understand that interplay between the passing game and the run game
c) Runyan is not a good run blocker. He is here for his pass blocking. Van Roten is on his 7th team in his career and that is not counting a year in the CFL. He's only in there due to the failure of the draft picks to take over the RT position.
To expand on that, for those who are now complaining about the running game, Runyan, Eluemunor, Van Roten and I think even Stinnie came as stronger in the passing game than in the run game. If they were strong at both, Giants would not have gotten them for the contracts they did. This line will better with the run when Neal replaces Van Roten next season.
The running back position is more important even in this new era passing age then most realize.
49ers and Eagles have high end talent ay all these positions and still find the money. So that's Schoen's job.
Pointing out that it was smoke and mirrors is saying that it wasn't replicable. Many fans, and apparently the FO, thought it would be easy to return to the heights of 2022, but it was never realistic because it was...smoke and mirrors...
they have replaced 8 of the 11 starters from 2022. i dont think they were obtuse to the need to improve post-2022, the problem is that they failed to do so not that they didnt try.
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In comment 16631512 Greg from LI said:
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And, shockingly enough, that hasn't paid off despite a better OL and a gifted young star receiver
which qb would you have chosen in either the 2023 or 2024 offseasons that has this team in a different position today?
I don't think that is the point. The point is even if we drafted JJM and were in the same position, we could believe we are investing in the future and look to better times ahead. DJ is a dead end, he isn't getting any better
i was all for JJM, but tell me what you think this offense looks like today with him (healthy), the dead last running game, and no nabers?
having a young qb may have been a fig leaf of hope but practically speaking it wouldnt have made the ytd failures of this offense elsewhere any better.
Can't wait to hear this is why Jones is struggling.
The worst part about all of this is that the owner likely thinks along these lines as well.
you know what other owner's team thinks along these lines? the one that used derrick henry to beat the bills to a pulp yesterday with just 19 passing attempts and 156 passing yards.
The goal of an offense is to create points. Pushing the ball down the field to score points was the goal this year. Despite better Oline blocking and the addition of a budding superstar WR, it isn't happening.
The goal was not to have the highest average YPC we could - duplicating an offense that didn't score enough points. It was to improve the offense. That isn't happening.
generally speaking do you think having a better running game with all the same personnel otherwise would have help open up any passing game?
my problem with this offense right now is they are basically just force feeding nabers. that is no knock on the reality that nabers is the best thing on the offense by far, but it's not sustainable.
even if the running game isnt the focus, the passing game needs to be more diverse than just nabers. they have gotten nothing out of their tight ends and nothing out of their 3rd WR. hard to be a high volume passing attacked funneled to just 2 guys.
The running back position is more important even in this new era passing age then most realize.
good point. I think a lot of ppl are missing this. defense has countered the wide open passing game with the proliferation of this shell coverage. It's all about preventing explosive plays (attempts are down 30% ish across the NFL) , then playing good red zone/ situaltional D. It is at the expense of the short passing game and running which is essentially being conceded. Scoring is down, passing yds, explosives etc. It's been trending this way for a cpl years but it is very evident this year.
I do think the running game will get sorted. I think this OL needs an identity - instead of trying to use all run schemes get really good at 1. Tracey is getting more integrated. I don't think Neal will play until there is an injury (nor should he) hopefully this time has been a benefit.
Because 2022 fits his narrative
he actually got $500k less guaranteed than they gave singletary.
Even the 2nd rounder JMS was not considered a glowing prospect from a physical standpoint. Van Roten struggles to survive in the League as a journeyman who plays multiple positions poorly.
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Because 2022 fits his narrative
they have not been able to run the ball at all this year. that's not a narrative it's reality.
forget barkley, forget 2022. does it seem like a good decision to have guaranteed singletary more $ than derrick henry got?
No, having a QB who can connect on a pass more than 15 yards downfield is what would open up the passing game, and make it easier to run as well.
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generally speaking do you think having a better running game with all the same personnel otherwise would have help open up any passing game?
No, having a QB who can connect on a pass more than 15 yards downfield is what would open up the passing game, and make it easier to run as well.
assuming you have that QB is it better for them to also have a running game or not?
do the ravens look better with derrick henry or not?
this is such a fundamentally obvious thing. one can hold these 2 thoughts in their head at the same time - running the football isnt as important as passing but having the ability to do it is better than not.
The running back position is more important even in this new era passing age then most realize.
This.
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of guys back there and get the same production huh....smh
The running back position is more important even in this new era passing age then most realize.
Country mouse Schoen outsmarts himself again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t2sAFYGpy8
It's interesting to see what Buffalo has done since he left. That short passing game (IMO) was looked at as an extension of the running game.
Dorsey came in after Daboll and tried to run the same offense. He lasted two years. The lack of a run game was what really did him in.
Now they have Brady running a much more balanced offense.
It'll be intersting to see how this offense develops.
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In comment 16631481 Greg from LI said:
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Because 2022 fits his narrative
they have not been able to run the ball at all this year. that's not a narrative it's reality.
forget barkley, forget 2022. does it seem like a good decision to have guaranteed singletary more $ than derrick henry got?
Nobody predicted Derrick Henry going off like he has been. Obviously in hindsight (4 games into the season) it seems somehow keeping Barkley or signing Henry would be better but at the time I feel the right decisions were made. I do agree about the use of Nabors though, we are going to end up ruining that guy's career if we cant stop forcing the ball to him. It looked like he was injured after every single catch he had on Thursday.
he probably wouldnt be but i think he'd be running better than they've had at roughly the same investment level.
their job is find players who succeed not players who dont succeed. if every player is better elsewhere than here what does that say?
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It's way, way too early to start using statistical averages and comparing to past seasons. There is for sure room for improvement in our running game, but we're not the worst running team in the NFL.
This.
it is functionally 1/4 into the season. first thing daboll in his postgame said he thought the difference in the dallas game was that they were able to run the ball and stop the run, we tried but couldnt run.
BRIAN DABOLL: Tough game. Competitive game. Comes down there to the end. Missed a couple opportunities to advance the ball or keep drives going. But the quarterback (Daniel Jones) played well and made a lot of good decisions, throws. Couldn't get our run game going, tried a variety of runs. Give them credit, they did a good job of shutting down our run game. So that was huge. The big play to #88 (Dallas Cowboys wide receiver CeeDee Lamb). But again, competitive game. Give them a lot of credit. Tough one.
Q: Were there any common denominators to not getting across the goal line or not getting down there?
BRIAN DABOLL: We were 0 for 2 when we got down there. Some of those were third down conversions where we had some opportunities to get there. I think we punted one time. Hit some fourth downs, but ultimately, we threw the ball out there to (wide receiver) Wan'Dale (Robinson) on the one and they made a good tackle on him. We had an opportunity there, on the right hand side, to keep the drive going. I thought a big difference was we controlled the game in the passing game, but we didn't do enough in the running game. Give them credit. We knew they were going get some of it fixed, but we have to do a better job than that.
singletary has looked good at times so i dont think he is the problem but he has some limitations and they thrust him into a bigger role than he's ever had before without anything in the way of proven alternatives. tracy looks promising but gray again doesnt look like an nfl athlete. it's singletary's 3rd team in 3 years for a reason. the fumbles arent new either.
they have their work ahead of them if they want the numbers to improve beyond the 1/4 mark and if they can't by the 1/2 way mark it may not matter.
But as others have said, it's early. And that number is being dragged down by the Dallas game, which surprised all of us.
Who the hell envisioned 24 carries for 26 yards in a reasonably tight game against a team that was getting gashed defending the run?
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if you can't throw the football. All off season, what did we hear? We have to push the ball down the field. We need to create explosive plays in the pass game. In 2022 we couldn't do that because the Oline couldn't pass block (and Jones is limited) so they schemed a way to run the ball effectively. It worked - the first half of the year. The offense, despite running the ball well, did not create points.
The goal of an offense is to create points. Pushing the ball down the field to score points was the goal this year. Despite better Oline blocking and the addition of a budding superstar WR, it isn't happening.
The goal was not to have the highest average YPC we could - duplicating an offense that didn't score enough points. It was to improve the offense. That isn't happening.
generally speaking do you think having a better running game with all the same personnel otherwise would have help open up any passing game?
Yes, the exact same way having a passing game would help opening up the running game. They have to work together. You can't just pick which one you want to be good at.
The offense wasn't very good in 2022. I am not sure why we would be trying to ape that.
ok i answered your question let's give you another chance to answer mine. if greg from LI was gm who would his QB right now from the 23/24 offseasons?
how would you expect this offense to look right now with whoever that person is?
would whatever your answer is be acceptable performance for a regime in year 3?
Sitting him without trying makes no sense.
But Daboll is not good with personnel decisions.
a) no one cares about Singltary who is on his 3rd team in 3 years for a reason.
b) Jones scares no one with his passing; teams are free to crowd the LOS. The Jonesians here do not understand that interplay between the passing game and the run game
c) Runyan is not a good run blocker. He is here for his pass blocking. Van Roten is on his 7th team in his career and that is not counting a year in the CFL. He's only in there due to the failure of the draft picks to take over the RT position.
Yes, the exact same way having a passing game would help opening up the running game. They have to work together. You can't just pick which one you want to be good at.
The offense wasn't very good in 2022. I am not sure why we would be trying to ape that.
nobody is suggesting they 'ape' the 2022 offense. the idea was to build be to make it better by adding a passing game. as they've tried to do that both of the last 2 offseasons with waller, campbell, hyatt, nabers, etc.
the outcome of their choices so far (jones extension included) is subtract the running game.
what gives you any confidence mayfield would have succeeded here like he has in tampa vs how he performed in carolina?
minshew got benched in the 4th quarter a week ago against carolina and was 14 for 24 for 130 yards no tds yesterday vs cleveland.
in your scenarios they save some money but are still sitting in 4th place just the same. in year 3.
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as he is for Baltimore?
he probably wouldnt be but i think he'd be running better than they've had at roughly the same investment level.
their job is find players who succeed not players who dont succeed. if every player is better elsewhere than here what does that say?
Henry has made over $65 million already.
Perhaps he wants a real shot at a championship?
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In comment 16631633 Greg from LI said:
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as he is for Baltimore?
he probably wouldnt be but i think he'd be running better than they've had at roughly the same investment level.
their job is find players who succeed not players who dont succeed. if every player is better elsewhere than here what does that say?
Henry has made over $65 million already.
Perhaps he wants a real shot at a championship?
players usually follow the $. i brought up henry specifically just because Baltimore isnt a high volume passing offense and they happened to beat the crap out of the bills yesterday.
ekeler went to Washington for just 4.25m guaranteed and pre concussion was doing well in a pass catching role.
aaron jones went to minnesota for just 7m fully guaranteed.
considering how dallas run defense had been prior to thursday i agree with daboll it was a big difference in that game.
always an excuse for why this team sucks other than QB. even though every other position is exponentially easier to actually solve than QB.
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for a chance to win a title. He wasn't coming here to win 7 games and answer questions ever week about why the team is letting down the QB.
always an excuse for why this team sucks other than QB. even though every other position is exponentially easier to actually solve than QB.
This is a passing league. All the rules are tilted to make throwing the ball down the field easier. Trying to build a functional offense that has no ability to spread the field or back the safeties up is going to be much more difficult.
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In comment 16631716 Mike from Ohio said:
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for a chance to win a title. He wasn't coming here to win 7 games and answer questions ever week about why the team is letting down the QB.
always an excuse for why this team sucks other than QB. even though every other position is exponentially easier to actually solve than QB.
This is a passing league. All the rules are tilted to make throwing the ball down the field easier. Trying to build a functional offense that has no ability to spread the field or back the safeties up is going to be much more difficult.
again this is a strawman. you acknowledged above that a running game can help a passing game and vice versa. it didnt need to be either/or. they could have both barkley and nabers. or nabers and any better running game than they have right now at a not so different cost than singletary. the intention being that the better running game is also helping compliment a better passing game by giving defenses more to defend.
why is it unfair to hold them accountable to the results? trust me ill be first in line to give them credit if the results get better. i happen to agree with daboll's assessment that the lack of running game was a big factor in Thursday's loss.
Sure they could have had an aging Barkley getting paid $12.5M per and keep their fingers crossed he didn't get hurt again...IF he wanted to come back here at all. Remember, he was offered a contract to stay here the year before and he turned it down.
Until the Giants can connect on some plays down the field, the running game will be looking at 8 man boxes in most games, and the running game will continue to struggle.
I am all for holding people accountable for results. I would not blink if both Schoen and Daboll were let go after this year because I am not sure what the case is to keep them other than "Well they really couldn't do much with the QB they extended."
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its Jones fault...
Can't wait to hear this is why Jones is struggling.
Jones isn't struggling.
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In comment 16631476 JT039 said:
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its Jones fault...
Can't wait to hear this is why Jones is struggling.
Jones isn't struggling.
True. The 17 TD, 13 INT pace he's on is about his ceiling.
Sure they could have had an aging Barkley getting paid $12.5M per and keep their fingers crossed he didn't get hurt again...IF he wanted to come back here at all. Remember, he was offered a contract to stay here the year before and he turned it down.
Until the Giants can connect on some plays down the field, the running game will be looking at 8 man boxes in most games, and the running game will continue to struggle.
I am all for holding people accountable for results. I would not blink if both Schoen and Daboll were let go after this year because I am not sure what the case is to keep them other than "Well they really couldn't do much with the QB they extended."
totally agree with your last paragraph. the intention of this thread wasn't to stump for barkley or defend the QB, but rather to point out that they have so far this year failed to build a consistent running game and it's been a problem (especially the fumbles).
they had plenty of options in FA this year to field a competent running game, it didn't have to be barkley.
re barkley, the deal he turned down from them would have paid him less than he got from Philly, and it incorporated the $10m they paid him on last year's tag. his ask from the giants in July 2023 per garafolo was 22-23m guaranteed, with the $10m they paid him on the tag included in that. he got paid that $10m by the giants, then got another $26m guaranteed from philly, which is a total of $36m guaranteed. and he did that off his worst season. imagine what he may have gotten off a good year? schoen completely misjudged his value and the market.
had they given barkley the extension he wanted in 2023, he'd have entered this season with just $12m guaranteed remaining on his giants deal. not doing that deal was their mistake by far more than passing on the philly deal this offseason. what compounds that mistake is that so far singletary has had his issues and they dont have any proven depth behind him if he continues to have fumbling issues or gets hurt under the bigger workload.
henry wanted to go there, that was a big miss.
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That's a huge part of the issue. We can point to Jones and Daboll on that. The interior Oline not getting enough push either. I know I'm going to get killed for it, but I have a suspicion we may see Neal in at RT and Eluemunor sliding in. Neal is a beast at run blocking at least and GVR isn't good enough in pass pro to justify not doing.
my problem with this offense right now is they are basically just force feeding nabers. that is no knock on the reality that nabers is the best thing on the offense by far, but it's not sustainable.
even if the running game isnt the focus, the passing game needs to be more diverse than just nabers. they have gotten nothing out of their tight ends and nothing out of their 3rd WR. hard to be a high volume passing attacked funneled to just 2 guys.
Yep. I haven't taken the time to study the games, but I get the sense the TEs are helping a lot with blocking, at least chipping, etc. We absolutely need to get them more involved in the passing attack. Nabers, Robinson out of slot and RBs is it. Almost literally nothing else.
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In comment 16631595 56goat said:
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In comment 16631476 JT039 said:
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its Jones fault...
Can't wait to hear this is why Jones is struggling.
Jones isn't struggling.
True. The 17 TD, 13 INT pace he's on is about his ceiling.
Well he sure as shit isn't excelling.
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In comment 16631476 JT039 said:
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its Jones fault...
Can't wait to hear this is why Jones is struggling.
Jones isn't struggling.
Jones is on pace for 16 TDs and 12 INTs. He’s averaging 6.1 per attempt. He’s 2-14 with an Interception on passes over 20 yards downfield. The team is averaging 15 points per game and is 1-3 against the soft part of the schedule.
The fact that some of you look at this as “not struggling” says all we need to know about the player you love
Y/C - 27th
TD% - 25th
Success % - 24th
Jones isn't struggling. He's just being himself.
Stealing the words of President John Kennedy's inauguration speed in 1960...
Ask not what Daniel Jones can do for the team. Ask what the team can do for Daniel Jones...
It’s completely mind boggling. You can tell that members of the DJFC simply do not watch other games that the Giants aren’t involved in. If they did, they’d know how stupid they all sound
Well, the DJFC was re-energized by the news that the Giants receivers have the second most drops so far.
So, if you factor in all of that critical yardage - I'm trying to think like a DJFC member - Jones is much better with his production.
They aren't saying it, but my guess is we are days or hours away from the DJFC arguing that Jones actually needs another WR1 to really maximize he dramatic upside. If he looks this decent with Nabers, imagine the results with another great WR...
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How’s the Yards Per Passing Attempt?
Well, the DJFC was re-energized by the news that the Giants receivers have the second most drops so far.
So, if you factor in all of that critical yardage - I'm trying to think like a DJFC member - Jones is much better with his production.
They aren't saying it, but my guess is we are days or hours away from the DJFC arguing that Jones actually needs another WR1 to really maximize he dramatic upside. If he looks this decent with Nabers, imagine the results with another great WR...
Well there’s this thread and another one that I just seen (plus other random clowns scattered on other threads) so it’s clear that the message they took away from their meeting at the clubhouse this weekend was “it’s the run blockings fault”.
How to play winning NFL football.
They are doing what a lot of people do - starting with a conclusion and working backwards to see how the existing facts can be fit to the conclusion. The first step in that is picking the facts you like and the facts you don't, and then over-emphasizing the facts you like and dismissing the importance of the facts you don't.
Y/C - 27th
TD% - 25th
Success % - 24th
Jones isn't struggling. He's just being himself.
you are right he is being himself - but himself as it has always been is right in the middle 1/3 of starters.
QBR is 14th,
EPA per play is 20th,
PFF grade is 20th,
completion% above expected is 13th,
the one thing abnormal is his avg air yards intended is 11th highest - which is from all the deep balls he cant hit.
if you take out week 1 where he was a lot worse than his usual league average, he has been a better version of himself other than the deep balls he cant hit and the drops.
you guys can keep pretending something would be different if minshew or baker were the qb, or if they had some extra cap room. or if they were the team smart enough to sign Darnold. but it wouldnt. Anyone at QB here would more likely be the Carolina versions of Darnold and Baker because the people running the organization making every decision have far more impact on the main goal (winning) than anyone else. the raiders, broncos, colts, bears, falcons have all gotten worse QB play than NYG with just as recently hired regimes and yet they are 2-2. herbert is injured and having his worst year averaging under 170 ypg, harbough turned them around and has them 2-2 despite it.
when there is enough of a trend of players leaving the organization and getting better while getting replaced with worse production here, that's when it's time to realize the problems run deeper than the players. Those are strategic flaws in design. A lot of us believed in Daboll going into this season, a lot of us appear to have been wrong about that.
https://rbsdm.com/stats/stats/ - ( New Window )
did you read what i wrote? the rankings i quoted were all full season, i posted the chart to show that in the last 3 games he's actually been better than his norms, with week 1 included he is almost exactly on the league average intersections. this is probably in line with his career norms but worse than 2022:
What are we doing here? How are we still making arguments that Jones isn't what we know he is?
But what are we doing here with Jones? The guy has been awful this year. It is what it is.
What are we doing here? How are we still making arguments that Jones isn't what we know he is?
the argument isnt that we dont know what he is.
the argument is that we know precisely what he is - and its basically alex smith. or ryan tannehill. ironically enough the exact players he was comp'd to most frequently coming out of college.
that is not an endorsement, any team should be looking for better than that. the reality is however finding better than that is not so simple for any organization (even the really well run ones, which the nyg most certainly have not been). It took Andy Reid 5 years of Alex Smith (and just 1 playoff win in that time period) before he switched to Mahomes. We'd be happy with Vrabel right? Remember which QB he won most of his games with?
Jones is the lightning rod of this organizations ineptitude to the point where even a thread about their poor running game comes back to him but the problems have been above him. just as eli was the lightning rod for his final few years but the problems were above him. remember when it was eli that was holding the organization back? and how obj was going to explode in Cleveland now that he had a QB who wasnt cooked? Eli's been gone for a half decade now and we've seen 3 head coaches hired/fired by 2 different gms since. bad hires are what have held this organization back far more than the quarterbacks.
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I can't stand the rationalizing for this guy anymore. The chopping up and massaging of the numbers.
What are we doing here? How are we still making arguments that Jones isn't what we know he is?
the argument isnt that we dont know what he is.
the argument is that we know precisely what he is - and its basically alex smith. or ryan tannehill. ironically enough the exact players he was comp'd to most frequently coming out of college.
that is not an endorsement, any team should be looking for better than that. the reality is however finding better than that is not so simple for any organization (even the really well run ones, which the nyg most certainly have not been). It took Andy Reid 5 years of Alex Smith (and just 1 playoff win in that time period) before he switched to Mahomes. We'd be happy with Vrabel right? Remember which QB he won most of his games with?
Jones is the lightning rod of this organizations ineptitude to the point where even a thread about their poor running game comes back to him but the problems have been above him. just as eli was the lightning rod for his final few years but the problems were above him. remember when it was eli that was holding the organization back? and how obj was going to explode in Cleveland now that he had a QB who wasnt cooked? Eli's been gone for a half decade now and we've seen 3 head coaches hired/fired by 2 different gms since. bad hires are what have held this organization back far more than the quarterbacks.
3 head coaches and 2 GMs. And ya know the one constant through all of that? The QB. I guess it’s easier for some of you to just say that every single coach must suck and every single GM must suck rather than look towards the one constant on the team throughout it all.
As another poster once said, Daniel Jones has more pelts on his belt than Daniel Boone.
15 points per game so far this year. 30th in league only ahead of Patriots who won't let Drake Maye start yet and Miami who lost their QB to injury.
This is who he is, basically every year. And you don't need any graphs.
I can't believe we're still litigating this guy.
This is what hole-plugging as a team-building strategy gets you.
Jones is the lightning rod of this organizations ineptitude to the point where even a thread about their poor running game comes back to him but the problems have been above him. just as eli was the lightning rod for his final few years but the problems were above him. remember when it was eli that was holding the organization back? and how obj was going to explode in Cleveland now that he had a QB who wasnt cooked? Eli's been gone for a half decade now and we've seen 3 head coaches hired/fired by 2 different gms since. bad hires are what have held this organization back far more than the quarterbacks.
Per the bold, it reads as if you are suggesting Jones is a victim of a bad organization. But he's been just as poor as the organization. So, you really need to hold him more accountable.
It's like you find the one class he is doing fairly well in (your graph) but ignore all of the other classes he is failing or barely passing.
Jones, on the other hand, has not shown the ability to elevate the play of his offense around him. I am very confident, in year 6, saying he is a HUGE part of the problem here.
I can't believe we're still litigating this guy.
Yeah, like what are we doing? He isn’t a good QB.
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Jones is the lightning rod of this organizations ineptitude to the point where even a thread about their poor running game comes back to him but the problems have been above him. just as eli was the lightning rod for his final few years but the problems were above him. remember when it was eli that was holding the organization back? and how obj was going to explode in Cleveland now that he had a QB who wasnt cooked? Eli's been gone for a half decade now and we've seen 3 head coaches hired/fired by 2 different gms since. bad hires are what have held this organization back far more than the quarterbacks.
Per the bold, it reads as if you are suggesting Jones is a victim of a bad organization. But he's been just as poor as the organization. So, you really need to hold him more accountable.
It's like you find the one class he is doing fairly well in (your graph) but ignore all of the other classes he is failing or barely passing.
Also in regards to the bold and the part right before it and a thread on the running game turning into a Jones thread, it was turned into a Jones thread with the very first post. By a Jones apologist…
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Jones is the lightning rod of this organizations ineptitude to the point where even a thread about their poor running game comes back to him but the problems have been above him. just as eli was the lightning rod for his final few years but the problems were above him. remember when it was eli that was holding the organization back? and how obj was going to explode in Cleveland now that he had a QB who wasnt cooked? Eli's been gone for a half decade now and we've seen 3 head coaches hired/fired by 2 different gms since. bad hires are what have held this organization back far more than the quarterbacks.
Per the bold, it reads as if you are suggesting Jones is a victim of a bad organization. But he's been just as poor as the organization. So, you really need to hold him more accountable.
It's like you find the one class he is doing fairly well in (your graph) but ignore all of the other classes he is failing or barely passing.
Also I think the simplest explanation here, which many fans don't want to admit, is that both Daniel Jones and late-career Eli needed a ton of supporting resources invested in order to get adequate performances. This if of course messes up the roster build.
Jones's weakness is managing pressure, so we load up on passing blocking OLs and can no longer run the ball. Over the last 4-5 years of Eli, there was a 1st round receiver, a 2nd round receiver, a 1st round TE, and 1st round RB drafted, and they all took the field in 2018 only to be barely mediocre on offense.
Trying to mask mediocre QB play exposes a ton of issues with teams and create a hole-plugging mentality. We have posters on here earnestly arguing that Jones needs a high-round pass-catching TE now, as if he didn't already have one in the past with Engram and Waller and do next to nothing with it!
Jones, on the other hand, has not shown the ability to elevate the play of his offense around him. I am very confident, in year 6, saying he is a HUGE part of the problem here.
I agree on Jones but also think Eli simply wasn't as good, especially from 2016-on regardless of the OL. The problem with this org has been consistently trying to solve subpar QB play instead of just trying more options at the position.
Giants run game (3.4ypc/83y) and a huge drop form '22. Pass game needs to average 277 yards per/game to hit that target. 60/40 pass run split. SF and Detroit are and have been about 50/50. Both QB's have a high Y/A and with those schemes PA is a much bigger factor so that Y/A is not surprising.
I don't think the issue is all above the QB but I agree with Eric that at least a good amount of it is.
It worked in 2022 and the Minnesota Wild Card victory, I seem to recall.
I can't believe we're still litigating this guy.
in 69 games blaine gabbert had a 56% completion percentage with 51 tds and 50 ints. never eclipsed the 2200 yards he threw for as a rookie (completing just 50% of his passes). just not even close.
here's a trivia question that may surprise you, what year of alex smith's career was his first year over 3k passing yards and first winning season?
'13 139/4.7 '14 120/4.6 '15 128/4.7 '16 110/4.2 '17 119/4.7
Reid didn't try to make Smith something he wasn't. I don't think the 5k passer is a sound strategy for the vast majority of QB's and that approach has significant downsides.
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Jones is the lightning rod of this organizations ineptitude to the point where even a thread about their poor running game comes back to him but the problems have been above him. just as eli was the lightning rod for his final few years but the problems were above him. remember when it was eli that was holding the organization back? and how obj was going to explode in Cleveland now that he had a QB who wasnt cooked? Eli's been gone for a half decade now and we've seen 3 head coaches hired/fired by 2 different gms since. bad hires are what have held this organization back far more than the quarterbacks.
Per the bold, it reads as if you are suggesting Jones is a victim of a bad organization. But he's been just as poor as the organization. So, you really need to hold him more accountable.
It's like you find the one class he is doing fairly well in (your graph) but ignore all of the other classes he is failing or barely passing.
how is there any argument every NYG player the last decade isnt a victim of a bad organization?
do you realize how many giants have left and gone on to being more productive elsewhere, often winning at winning orgs, in the last decade?
linval joseph,
jonathan hankins,
prince,
justin pugh,
ereck flowers,
eli apple,
evan engram,
dalvin tomlinson,
romeo okwara,
devon kennard,
will hernandez,
bj hill,
lorenzo carter,
kevin zeitler,
jabrill peppers,
julian love,
barkley,
mckinney,
that's just off the top of my head im sure there are some others im missing.
so many of those guys were cut or wished away because they were considered "busts" or "cancers" only to go on to being productive starters after for better teams while the NYG replaced them with inferior players.
any player close to league average at their position is performing way better comparatively than the quality of performance we've gotten from our GMs and HCs.
if the only thing that mattered were QB performance what's the explanation for wasting the back half of Eli's prime? SB46 was his age 30 season.
I'm agreeing the organization has been poor. But so has Jones.
And you seem to be sidestepping that a bit.
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But he's been just as poor as the organization. So, you really need to hold him more accountable.
I'm agreeing the organization has been poor. But so has Jones.
And you seem to be sidestepping that a bit.
i am not sidestepping anything - i've long posted that his performance has been that of a middle 1/3 qb. there are plenty of non-subjective numbers supporting that.
do you think there is a single metric to support that the giants organization as a whole has been middle 1/3 the last decade?
and as is the case with jones the leaders of the organization are the ones who chose the players in the first place. so however much you fault any player for holding the organization back is it's still just as entirely the fault of the organization for choosing that player in the first place.
The Cleveland Browns would like a word.
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The problem with this org has been consistently trying to solve subpar QB play instead of just trying more options at the position.
The Cleveland Browns would like a word.
Well, they ran Baker Mayfield out of town during a down season that would still rank among Jones's best, so that's on them. It's not like Tim Couch, Johnny Manziel, and Derek Anderson were awesome players that the organization failed. Sometimes you just take a lot of bad QBs.
Why we've made this shift, I don't know.
But I also bring this up because oftentimes, fans want simply answers to things. Running game bad = Because Jones ineffective.
But sometimes there are more nuanced causes of problems.
Why we've made this shift, I don't know.
But I also bring this up because oftentimes, fans want simply answers to things. Running game bad = Because Jones ineffective.
But sometimes there are more nuanced causes of problems.
especially so since the margins between winning/losing in the nfl are very slight. im not sure if people think daboll is lying to us or to himself, but the first thing he cited as the difference against dallas was the running game. and that was widely speculated as an area they should have been able to take advantage of going in since dallas had struggled on both ends. and instead dallas flipped the script.
prior to the dallas game i thought the giants run game had been pretty good other than the fumbles but seeing the stat from Nick Falato that sparked this thread that collectively they are last in YPC seemed like a pretty telling metric that this wasnt just 1 isolated bad performance.
Browns. Prior the the last drive they were 27c/70y/2.5y. That would be through 58 minutes. Then the Dallas disaster.
I think it is a combination of personnel, scheme and commitment/philosophy.
Now Mike: Some discussion on that duo concept above in a thread. It does leave an unblocked LB that the RB has to read correctly.
the fumbles have been his biggest problem, along with the fact that the backups have been meaningfully worse than him. gray has 4 rushes for just 7 yards, tracy has 12 for 29.
those 19 runs are basically 1/3 of the runs singletary has (56), so as a team if singletary's performing middle of the pack then the team success is weighted down by that 1/3 that is way below average so far. plus the fumbles.
Browns. Prior the the last drive they were 27c/70y/2.5y. That would be through 58 minutes. Then the Dallas disaster.
I think it is a combination of personnel, scheme and commitment/philosophy.
Now Mike: Some discussion on that duo concept above in a thread. It does leave an unblocked LB that the RB has to read correctly.
I get that, but if you look at the plays our linemen just don't look athletic enough to pull that off. JMS in particular seems to struggle "crossing the face" of the DL
Something is very wrong the last two games.
Some of these "8 man fronts" are in response to offensive formations imv. Detroit faced these last night and they seem to handle it and have a effective PA game because of it.
I don't think BD is lying though frustrated with some deep misses.
and as is the case with jones the leaders of the organization are the ones who chose the players in the first place. so however much you fault any player for holding the organization back is it's still just as entirely the fault of the organization for choosing that player in the first place.
Again, I'm not taking NYG off the hook. They are certainly at fault for misjudging Jones pre-draft, and since he's been here with the doubling and tripling down.