This will be the question that Mara and Tisch will be faced with at the end of the year when this team inevitably goes 5-12 or 6-11 at the end of the season. Let’s look a list of Pros and Cons I created.
Pros
1. Schoen has created a good situation for the next QB. A Franchise LT signed at a reasonable rate for the next few seasons. A No. 1 Receiver on a rookie contract. A No. 2/3 receiver in Robinson that will be on the last year of his rookie contract.
2. Schoen built a defense with three Pro Bowl caliber veterans locked up for a few seasons in Dex, Burns, and Okereke. Plus young players that a few young pieces that are still on rookie deals (Kayvon, Banks, McFadden, Nubin).
3. Say what you want about Daboll, but the guy is a good coach who has gotten the most out of deeply flawed rosters with bad QBs (Jones and DeVito)
Cons
1. Schoen blew the No. 7 overall pick in Evan Neal. Not sure why Neal has not worked out (injuries or bad coaching) but right now we are not getting anything out of that pick.
2. Schoen and Daboll signed of on extending Jones after the 2022. This has been proven to be a mistake as the Giants have not gotten a good return on the Jones experiment. We’ve lost 2 seasons and 20+ mill dead cap in 2025 after he is released.
3. Schoen and Daboll’s has been questionable at times with not having specific roles for players at opportune times. I.E No swing tackle at the start of 2023 season, No kicker for hurt Gano on 2 occasions and etc.
4. The roster still has holes that need to be addressed in the future. DTs, starting Corner, starting RB, and O-Line depth.
Where do you stand?
Do I think this will happen? Of course not. I fully expect Schoen, Daboll and DJ back for another year in 2025, with more weapons for Daniel coming in April.
Do I think this will happen? Of course not. I fully expect Schoen, Daboll and DJ back for another year in 2025, with more weapons for Daniel coming in April.
Man, really? You were optimistic it was finally over after week 1.
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Maybe the focus should shift from everything serving the quarterback to actually building and managing an entire football team.
I want a head coach that watches the game and doesn't spend it staring at a play sheet.
Come on man. Most of the top coaches in the league are offensive play callers.
Yeah, and they aren't coming here. You bringing McVay, Reid, or Shanahan here? Great. I'm on board.
The sad truth though is that there are a bunch of guys pretending to be one of those guys. And that includes Daboll.
For every McVay how many Matt Nagys and Pat Shurmurs exist?
I like Dabs. I think he, given a credible QB, can win in this league. Hell, look @ what he did with Cutlets. But @ this point, I want an entire house cleaning. And I'm so over Schoen. Not only has he scored the QB position like a freshman taking a Calc exam on a 3 day beneder, he just seems like an empty suit. I wasn't impressed with him at all in 'Hard Knocks'.
Do I think this will happen? Of course not. I fully expect Schoen, Daboll and DJ back for another year in 2025, with more weapons for Daniel coming in April.
Normally, I would endorse this wholeheartedly.
But there is a ray of hope via poster Woodstock, a recent member of the BBI Asshats, who is insistent that Jones is gone once the time his double zeroes on January 5th, 2025. The final game v Philly.
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Do I think this will happen? Of course not. I fully expect Schoen, Daboll and DJ back for another year in 2025, with more weapons for Daniel coming in April.
Normally, I would endorse this wholeheartedly.
But there is a ray of hope via poster Woodstock, a recent member of the BBI Asshats, who is insistent that Jones is gone once the time his double zeroes on January 5th, 2025. The final game v Philly.
I hope you're right BW! But the combination of the dead cap hit and the injury guarantee were sneaky shrewd maneuvers by team DJ... They will no doubt be arguing the cheap marginal cost of "just one more year for a possible Sam Darnold like seventh year resurrection".
So yeah, I trust him to chose the QB.
I hope you're right BW! But the combination of the dead cap hit and the injury guarantee were sneaky shrewd maneuvers by team DJ... They will no doubt be arguing the cheap marginal cost of "just one more year for a possible Sam Darnold like seventh year resurrection".
I'm trying not to think too much about it for fear of disappointment.
It took me several days to mentally recover when Schoen head-faked the fans by his mild interest in the Pats pick for the draft. And then proceeded to look the other way at every opportunity to select a QB.
So yeah, I trust him to chose the QB.
There's no way of knowing right now, but I bet he'd be a big advocate for Jalen Milroe.
My concern is that they will be on the hotseat, causing them to reach for a QB. I think the only remedy is if they do take a QB in 2025, then they need to be open to taking one in 2026 if a prospect is there that they like a lot more than the year prior.
I mean Daboll got coach of the year just 2 seasons ago. Did he hit his head and all of a sudden forget??what the fuck man.
Can we please be better fans and not scream kick and shout for people to be fired all the time.
The reason why this team has failed for so many years is because we keep changing over and over. Success comes with consistency.
yes let the guys get their QB of the future and continue building this roster.
I mean Daboll got coach of the year just 2 seasons ago. Did he hit his head and all of a sudden forget??what the fuck man.
Can we please be better fans and not scream kick and shout for people to be fired all the time.
The reason why this team has failed for so many years is because we keep changing over and over. Success comes with consistency.
yes let the guys get their QB of the future and continue building this roster.
Keeping the wrong people in place for the sake of consistency is a losing strategy. Maybe instead of blaming other fans, blame the guy who keeps making crap hires 🤷♂️
Schoen has been up and down with more downs than ups. I do understand that Schoen and Daboll are a package deal, so I’m willing to give them a chance to pick their QB. Schoen has not mortgaged the future and has built a foundation for whatever QB they get, and I’m confident in Daboll’s coaching. So yes I am willing to trust them in picking the QB and keep the continuity going
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calling for another org change, you are what is wrong with the NFL these days and why I'm having a hard time enjoying football. Zero patience in fans these days....
I mean Daboll got coach of the year just 2 seasons ago. Did he hit his head and all of a sudden forget??what the fuck man.
Can we please be better fans and not scream kick and shout for people to be fired all the time.
The reason why this team has failed for so many years is because we keep changing over and over. Success comes with consistency.
yes let the guys get their QB of the future and continue building this roster.
Keeping the wrong people in place for the sake of consistency is a losing strategy. Maybe instead of blaming other fans, blame the guy who keeps making crap hires 🤷♂️
you can't make that evaluation after 2-1/4 seasons. You just can't.
People get better at their jobs with experience.
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Do I think this will happen? Of course not. I fully expect Schoen, Daboll and DJ back for another year in 2025, with more weapons for Daniel coming in April.
Normally, I would endorse this wholeheartedly.
But there is a ray of hope via poster Woodstock, a recent member of the BBI Asshats, who is insistent that Jones is gone once the time his double zeroes on January 5th, 2025. The final game v Philly.
And just who is this QB that we will be acquiring? Who have they been waiting for?
So yeah, I trust him to chose the QB.
Was there anyone who didn't identify Jayden Daniels as a stud? Every draft publication has him as a top-5 pick and potential franchise QB. He was right about Daniels, but so was 85% of BBI.
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We saw it on HK. He identified the guy that looks like the stud QB.
So yeah, I trust him to chose the QB.
Was there anyone who didn't identify Jayden Daniels as a stud? Every draft publication has him as a top-5 pick and potential franchise QB. He was right about Daniels, but so was 85% of BBI.
While BBI was mostly in on Maye, many did like Daniels but complained about his slight build.
The point was, Daboll didn't mention Williams(because of Bears likely taking him?) and marginally Maye and while they had McCarthy in, it was clear ex-post facto that he was not an option.
And for those crapping on Schoen, go listen to the latest podcast from Eric and John with Sy. Sy does think Schoen is doing a decent job - think he actually had higher praise than that.
And there were several posters who were all-in on Daniels being the #1 overall pick even before the Heisman trophy was awarded.
People get better at their jobs with experience.
Exactly, though you need to make an educated evaluation of that improvement. For example, which coaching mistakes are repeated vs which are not.
Just like a player, a coach and GM can develop their knowledge and skill sets. I guess the trick is somehow determining whether they will adapt, or whether they possess some sort of block or deficiency that will prevent adaptation. In the Giants' case that evaluation will be made by ownership and others in the front office, who *themselves* have skill sets and knowledge that can stand to use a lot of improvement and adaptation.
If you had a clean slate, would you hire Schoen and Daboll, knowing that it was their judgment to bet the ranch on Daniel Jones, rather than prudently either applying the tag, or signing a comparable guy (Mayfield/Darnold) at one quarter the price? The latter of which would have enabled you to not only keep guys like Saquon, McKinney and Love, but to also sign a top notch free agent guard like Robert Hunt, instead of settling for Jon Runyan.
For me, the answer could not be more clear. The locker room needs a fresh start. Schoen will always be known as the guy who bet on Daniel Jones. His credibility and judgment for this and the Hard Knocks series have taken lethal hits. And Daboll, who is unfortunately a casualty of his own success, has now lost the one thing that made him special - authenticity - by becoming the quarterback's apologist in chief and proud presenter of DJ's weekly participation trophies. Daboll must have forgotten the ancient wisdom that it is pride that goeth before a fall.
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Agreed, the impatience and constant replacement of front office and coaching is killing the franchise. (Humorously, this was sentiment after the Judge fiasco of John Mara, who I think is a fool.)
People get better at their jobs with experience.
Exactly, though you need to make an educated evaluation of that improvement. For example, which coaching mistakes are repeated vs which are not.
Just like a player, a coach and GM can develop their knowledge and skill sets. I guess the trick is somehow determining whether they will adapt, or whether they possess some sort of block or deficiency that will prevent adaptation. In the Giants' case that evaluation will be made by ownership and others in the front office, who *themselves* have skill sets and knowledge that can stand to use a lot of improvement and adaptation.
Santacruz, great response and I appreciate the intellect you added.
My whole thesis statement here is that the body of work presented by this leadership group is too small to make a defined decision on.
For one its split into 2 different series of performance
2022 - started the year strong, injuries caused that to slow, then made adjustments and changes to the approach of games, followed up with players on the roster becoming more experienced and confidence built. Then came a playoff birth
2023 - started the year weak, injuries incurred again, but this time the roster is 25% younger and depth is tested, management made a no going back move at the trade deadline and then settled on planning for 2024.
2024 - 4 games in, few critical changes in personnel have made pos/neg impacts, no injuries yet but a key player coming off a major injury is like an injury (Jones) and regression should be expected. ...so far that's it....
So how can anyone in their right mind take all that into account and then fairly and rationally make the determination that's enough body of work to validate a massive change.
A change that will completely undercut all the positive improvement we have seen on the roster and don't forget the cap. A lot of relationships would be at risk and would totally reset the franchise back another 3 years.
I'm sick of the change it and break it philosophy, Stay the dam course for once and stop letting your emotions on game day own your well being.
If you had a clean slate, would you hire Schoen and Daboll, knowing that it was their judgment to bet the ranch on Daniel Jones, rather than prudently either applying the tag, or signing a comparable guy (Mayfield/Darnold) at one quarter the price? The latter of which would have enabled you to not only keep guys like Saquon, McKinney and Love, but to also sign a top notch free agent guard like Robert Hunt, instead of settling for Jon Runyan.
For me, the answer could not be more clear. The locker room needs a fresh start. Schoen will always be known as the guy who bet on Daniel Jones. His credibility and judgment for this and the Hard Knocks series have taken lethal hits. And Daboll, who is unfortunately a casualty of his own success, has now lost the one thing that made him special - authenticity - by becoming the quarterback's apologist in chief and proud presenter of DJ's weekly participation trophies. Daboll must have forgotten the ancient wisdom that it is pride that goeth before a fall.
ughh. no way man.
did you forget??, did everyone forget.??, Jones had just won a playoff game against one of the Super Bowl favs
do you remember the QB market then?? Drafting wasn't an option either....Of course the org was going to give him a contract. Any other team would have as well. Also ....THE DEAL WAS STRUCTURED FAVORABLY ...meaning if he falters we can cut him.
I don't get it guys.....is it selective memory people? please explain to me how you get to ignore this when you get all upset about Schoen signing him.
what happened to Giants fans? We used to be considered the smartest fanbase
We have changed coaches 4 times now in the last decade. come fucking on ....smarten up.
If you had a clean slate, would you hire Schoen and Daboll, knowing that it was their judgment to bet the ranch on Daniel Jones, rather than prudently either applying the tag, or signing a comparable guy (Mayfield/Darnold) at one quarter the price? The latter of which would have enabled you to not only keep guys like Saquon, McKinney and Love, but to also sign a top notch free agent guard like Robert Hunt, instead of settling for Jon Runyan.
For me, the answer could not be more clear. The locker room needs a fresh start. Schoen will always be known as the guy who bet on Daniel Jones. His credibility and judgment for this and the Hard Knocks series have taken lethal hits. And Daboll, who is unfortunately a casualty of his own success, has now lost the one thing that made him special - authenticity - by becoming the quarterback's apologist in chief and proud presenter of DJ's weekly participation trophies. Daboll must have forgotten the ancient wisdom that it is pride that goeth before a fall.
I wonder if Joe Schoen goes home every night to his son saying "I told you so"
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The operative question is "what is best for the Giants franchise?"
If you had a clean slate, would you hire Schoen and Daboll, knowing that it was their judgment to bet the ranch on Daniel Jones, rather than prudently either applying the tag, or signing a comparable guy (Mayfield/Darnold) at one quarter the price? The latter of which would have enabled you to not only keep guys like Saquon, McKinney and Love, but to also sign a top notch free agent guard like Robert Hunt, instead of settling for Jon Runyan.
For me, the answer could not be more clear. The locker room needs a fresh start. Schoen will always be known as the guy who bet on Daniel Jones. His credibility and judgment for this and the Hard Knocks series have taken lethal hits. And Daboll, who is unfortunately a casualty of his own success, has now lost the one thing that made him special - authenticity - by becoming the quarterback's apologist in chief and proud presenter of DJ's weekly participation trophies. Daboll must have forgotten the ancient wisdom that it is pride that goeth before a fall.
ughh. no way man.
did you forget??, did everyone forget.??, Jones had just won a playoff game against one of the Super Bowl favs
do you remember the QB market then?? Drafting wasn't an option either....Of course the org was going to give him a contract. Any other team would have as well. Also ....THE DEAL WAS STRUCTURED FAVORABLY ...meaning if he falters we can cut him.
I don't get it guys.....is it selective memory people? please explain to me how you get to ignore this when you get all upset about Schoen signing him.
what happened to Giants fans? We used to be considered the smartest fanbase
This has nothing to do with the fans. It has to do with the credibility among players and key NFL constituencies as to the way the NY Giants are being run. It is no different from Pete Rozelle intervening on behalf of the league to insert George Young in 1979. This franchise was a laughingstock when Schoen and Daboll arrived. If anything, after the DJ contract and Hard Knock series, it is more of a laughingstock today. The Minnesota game was the exception to the rule, which was reinforced with prejudice exactly one week later by the Eagles.
The fans are not the enemy here. And btw, the NY Giants have by far the best fanbase in all of sports so you are even more off base on your assessment of the fans as well.
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The operative question is "what is best for the Giants franchise?"
If you had a clean slate, would you hire Schoen and Daboll, knowing that it was their judgment to bet the ranch on Daniel Jones, rather than prudently either applying the tag, or signing a comparable guy (Mayfield/Darnold) at one quarter the price? The latter of which would have enabled you to not only keep guys like Saquon, McKinney and Love, but to also sign a top notch free agent guard like Robert Hunt, instead of settling for Jon Runyan.
For me, the answer could not be more clear. The locker room needs a fresh start. Schoen will always be known as the guy who bet on Daniel Jones. His credibility and judgment for this and the Hard Knocks series have taken lethal hits. And Daboll, who is unfortunately a casualty of his own success, has now lost the one thing that made him special - authenticity - by becoming the quarterback's apologist in chief and proud presenter of DJ's weekly participation trophies. Daboll must have forgotten the ancient wisdom that it is pride that goeth before a fall.
ughh. no way man.
did you forget??, did everyone forget.??, Jones had just won a playoff game against one of the Super Bowl favs
do you remember the QB market then?? Drafting wasn't an option either....Of course the org was going to give him a contract. Any other team would have as well. Also ....THE DEAL WAS STRUCTURED FAVORABLY ...meaning if he falters we can cut him.
I don't get it guys.....is it selective memory people? please explain to me how you get to ignore this when you get all upset about Schoen signing him.
what happened to Giants fans? We used to be considered the smartest fanbase
So throwing away 2 more seasons of an entire franchise because they won a wild card playoff game is structuring the deal of one player favorably?
I agree...what has happened to Giants fans.
do you remember the QB market then?? Drafting wasn't an option either....Of course the org was going to give him a contract. Any other team would have as well. Also ....THE DEAL WAS STRUCTURED FAVORABLY ...meaning if he falters we can cut him.
It's been explained hundreds of times. The more favorable move with either the FT or TT.
Minnesota was not a Super Bowl favorite going into the playoffs. They were 30/1. The same as the 8-9 Buccaneers that year.
And, all of this is based off of 1 mediocre season and a playoff win against one of the worst defenses in the league. It completely ignored the horrific playoff loss and the rest of the similar type performances against above .500 teams.`
And, all of this is based off of 1 mediocre season and a playoff win against one of the worst defenses in the league. It completely ignored the horrific playoff loss and the rest of the similar type performances against above .500 teams.`
Put another way, Team Jones won a unanimous decision over Schoen. One might even argue it was a TKO.
Making constant org changes every 2-3 years shows a level of instability. For that reason you are viewed as an organization with no mission statement.
no Giants fans are not the best in the world. They have become the most entitled though. .
Making constant org changes every 2-3 years shows a level of instability. For that reason you are viewed as an organization with no mission statement.
no Giants fans are not the best in the world. They have become the most entitled though. .
Stability isn't an objective when the people in the building are incompetent.
Schoen and Daboll are incompetent in their respective positions. They are living off the anomalous start to the 2022 season and the performance of Josh Allen for another team.
John Mara is incapable of judging talent, as was his father.
If Mara has any shed of intelligence he will hire sometime who can actually identify a football to run the entire football operation.
John Mara is THE problem.
Making constant org changes every 2-3 years shows a level of instability. For that reason you are viewed as an organization with no mission statement.
.
I would say that an organization that has to make constant org changes because each change fails to result in meaningful improvement has worse problems than being viewed as lacking a mission Statement.
WM wanted to retain Parcells when Young was looking to move on. Wellington identified Coughlin when he was a WR coach and later hired him. Four SB wins with those two.
John's far bigger mistakes have been dealing with the FO. First Reese (should have been gone after '13 and if he was bold and honest after '12). Then Dave and now Schoen. Then he hired two HC's who were not serious about fixing the underlying issues that have plagued this franchise. Schoen hired the current HC and he looks a lot like the others after TC imv.
Bringing him back on the tag might have shown him the door after '23, but it is also a good possibility he'd be here this year on a prove it deal after the injury.
IF we are, again, picking at the top of the draft, Schoen is making the pick. Daboll will be gone. IF we're within reach of a top QB prospect, the status of the rest of the team makes the Giants a nice landing spot for a quality HC candidate.
The question is really about Daboll. IF there are quality candidates interested in his job, do you roll Dabs back for another year? We have to see how the rest of this year pans out, but if his seat is warm, I'd rather a new coach be working with the new QB. You don't want Dabs fired after '25/26 season, putting a young QB into a regime change after only one year.
Making constant org changes every 2-3 years shows a level of instability. For that reason you are viewed as an organization with no mission statement.
no Giants fans are not the best in the world. They have become the most entitled though. .
Need to get a GM and Coach who can be here longer than an average NFL career.
Not keep them just for longevity purposes.
A GM has to be outstandingly bad to get the hook after 3 years (Gettleman level bad) as it takes longer to evaluate the vision.
A HC, though, should be in his prime after 3 years, and it should be known if you have someone worth keeping. When in doubt, length of Daboll's contract comes into play. If it is 4 years, do you want to wait til after 4 to renew? or extend his contract adding to the amount the team is on the hook for if he doesn't step up?
for the 7th time ....
2 seasons is not long enough to make a evaluated opinion on a head coach and GM. Especially when 1 was considered a successful season.
for the 7th time ....
2 seasons is not long enough to make a evaluated opinion on a head coach and GM. Especially when 1 was considered a successful season.
Maybe you are right. Hell, the evaluation on Daniel Jones is now in Year 6 after all, and that clock is still ticking.
If ownership wants a scapegoat after this season crashes, Davoli's out and we're stuck with Bro, given NYG's history for choosing half measures.
for the 7th time ....
2 seasons is not long enough to make a evaluated opinion on a head coach and GM. Especially when 1 was considered a successful season.
When those 3 offseasons are littered with major errors, and the 2 seasons (+4 games) are also littered with errors... it's long enough.