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Offense strategy and a lot of bias

flyswimwalk : 9/30/2024 6:35 pm
After watching last weekend's games and reading the discussion/reviews, it’s clear there’s plenty to discuss regarding offensive strategy. And the bias is obvious—many had a narrative in mind before the game even started, and they’re now just twisting the events to fit that storyline.

Compare the performance of last weekend's games:

Giants
Passing: 12 first downs, 1 INT, 29/40 and 277 yards, 6.8 YPP, 2 passes over 20 yards
Rushing: 4 first downs, 24 attempts, 26 yards, 1.1 YPR

Commanders
Passing: 14 first downs, 1 TD and 1 INT, 26/30 and 233 yards, 7.8 YPP, 1 pass over 20 yards
Rushing: 13 first downs, 4 TD, 37 attemps, 216 yards, 5.8 YPR

The takeaway is pretty clear if there's no bias or agenda:

- The Commanders' passing game is slightly better than the Giants', but it’s not a game-changer.
- The key difference is the running game, with a 190-yard gap between the two teams.
- Neither team had many explosive plays. I’m not saying the Commanders couldn’t have made those plays, but they didn’t.

On another note, while Jones' performance wasn’t stellar, it wasn’t awful either. The passing game didn’t lose the game. The Giants' run game, which was the worst of any team this season, is what ultimately lost it.

Despite this, the post-game discussion focused solely on how bad Jones was, using a different standard. This brings me to the offensive strategy.

The Commanders have a clear strategy: mix short to mid-range passes with a strong running game, and minimize turnovers. It’s working, and their roster supports the strategy. But if we are using the same standard, why isn’t there criticism of their QB for not making explosive plays? Didn't folks say that you need deeps passes to open up the game for running plays to work?

The Giants' strategy, however, seems baffling to me.
I would say the strategy and expectations  
56goat : 9/30/2024 6:43 pm : link
for a rookie QB in his 4th start versus an experienced QB in his 6th year are vastly different. What does your own data say if the game plan for DJ is similar to a rookie in his 4th start? And is Daniels missing reads and throws like DJ is?
Our strategy is to keep games close  
kelly : 9/30/2024 6:53 pm : link
So no matter the outcome Daboll and Schoen can claim we are competitive and keep their jobs.

Since when did competitive replace winning for the Giants??

When Mara said he wanted to see a competitive instead of saying he wanted to see a winning team.

Talk about setting a low bar.

If you watched the game  
gary_from_chester : 9/30/2024 6:58 pm : link
Daniels had some amazing throws into tight windows. He made the winning plays. Statistically, you can argue there was not a major difference between Jones and Daniels; you really need to watch the game. Daniels had some legit amazing throws showing great anticipation, creativity, and moxie. He is a smooth, plus athlete and runner who is making great decisions at an early stage in his career. Stats can be misleading…Jones played ok, but missed some very makeable big play opportunities that would have put us in the win column. It’s not bias, it’s a rational assessment based on knowledge of the game and actually viewing the game.
The Giants don’t have a good run blocking line  
BillT : 9/30/2024 7:01 pm : link
Good at pass protection but below average in the run game. We won’t have a balanced offense for probably half our games. We’re probably a stud RG away from a complete OL. Maybe next year.
Relook at the passing numbers  
cosmicj : 9/30/2024 7:09 pm : link
Those are very different statistical results.

Daniels had a much much better game, just according to the YPA and completion %.
Are you just ignoring Daniels historic  
HardTruth : 9/30/2024 7:14 pm : link
Completion %

And the fact that they are winning and rarely punt

And that they beat us?

Otherwise yeah the situations are the same
The  
Giants4me : 9/30/2024 7:23 pm : link
Commanders scored on 15 consecutive possessions.

Punted yesterday for the fist time since game one.

Not sure what you're comparing but results matter.
I will agree that when looking at passing, DJ is roughly the same as a  
PatersonPlank : 9/30/2024 7:24 pm : link
rookie playing his 4th game.

However I would also point out that Jayden Daniels ran for 41 yds and 1 TD. He was moving the chains via his running too.

So I give you that Washingtons rush game makes a difference. However since this is a comparison, the 4 game rookie passes as well as Jones and also rushes much better (and his running is a weapon not just navigating the pocket).

I'd take Daniels every day, and his passing will get better while Jones passing will not.
What I struggle to understand  
flyswimwalk : 9/30/2024 7:31 pm : link
is what is our offensive strategy. Based on roster movements and preseason games, it seemed like the plan was to focus on deep passes with some run plays mixed in. But over the last four games, that hasn’t been the case. While a few of DJ’s deep pass attempts didn’t work out, it’s way too early to abandon that strategy if it was part of the original plan. With so few attempts in just four games, it's hard to see where we’re trying to execute it.

What we’ve actually seen is more of the Commanders' approach—short-to-mid passes combined with the run game. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s not how we played in preseason, nor is it how the roster was built. Our short-to-mid passing game has been quite solid, but the run game has really struggled.

In the last game, passing stats were skewed by late-game drops and last second desperate throws. For most of the game, the passing was very effective—over 80%, maybe even 90% completion, with around 10 yards per play. What’s puzzling is why the team kept running straight into the defense when it was clearly not working, averaging just 1 yard per run. So, what exactly was the strategy there?
Hey, did you happen to notice the Giants threw the ball  
ThomasG : 9/30/2024 7:37 pm : link
more times, for more completions and more yards.

But less first downs and less points.

How ‘bout that?
RE: Hey, did you happen to notice the Giants threw the ball  
flyswimwalk : 9/30/2024 7:51 pm : link
What are you trying to say? I showed theose stats in the post.

In comment 16632215 ThomasG said:
Quote:
more times, for more completions and more yards.

But less first downs and less points.

How ‘bout that?
Most comments here are just missing the point  
flyswimwalk : 9/30/2024 7:53 pm : link
as always
RE: Most comments here are just missing the point  
ThomasG : 9/30/2024 8:01 pm : link
In comment 16632226 flyswimwalk said:
Quote:
as always


The point you are missing is points.

It’s all about scoring points. Jones-led offenses don’t score points. And haven’t for years. The offensive players continue to get changed out (other than Jones) and the results are the same.

"They beat us"  
Toth029 : 9/30/2024 8:55 pm : link
Giants beat themselves with idiotic coaching errors.
Part of the Washington rushing success  
ajr2456 : 10/1/2024 6:23 am : link
Is that teams need to account for Daniels.

The run blocking grades for the players on the Washington line in 2023 vs 2024:

Wylie: 66/59.3
Coleman: NA/60.3
Biadasz: 68/63
Cosmi: 80.9/62.4
Allegretti: 65/62.2

So they aren’t run blocking well, everyone is having a worse year in 2024.
The only stat that wins games  
gridirony : 10/1/2024 10:29 am : link
is scoring more points than the other team.

You said that WAS had basically no explosive plays. They had 5 of them, 5 TDs. The Giants had 0. You missed the most glaring difference between the two teams.

All of the other stats you list can have a correlation to winning, but are not the causation of winning.
RE: If you watched the game  
joe48 : 10/1/2024 10:37 am : link
In comment 16632161 gary_from_chester said:
Quote:
Daniels had some amazing throws into tight windows. He made the winning plays. Statistically, you can argue there was not a major difference between Jones and Daniels; you really need to watch the game. Daniels had some legit amazing throws showing great anticipation, creativity, and moxie. He is a smooth, plus athlete and runner who is making great decisions at an early stage in his career. Stats can be misleading…Jones played ok, but missed some very makeable big play opportunities that would have put us in the win column. It’s not bias, it’s a rational assessment based on knowledge of the game and actually viewing the game.

I don’t buy this tight window theory. It is a new one. The line is not moving people out because the teams stack the box. Where are our TEs in the offense. Where are the schemes ? How many deep throws do we need a game? How far down field? Splitting hairs.
RE: What I struggle to understand  
gridirony : 10/1/2024 10:47 am : link
In comment 16632208 flyswimwalk said:
Quote:
is what is our offensive strategy. Based on roster movements and preseason games, it seemed like the plan was to focus on deep passes with some run plays mixed in. But over the last four games, that hasn’t been the case. While a few of DJ’s deep pass attempts didn’t work out, it’s way too early to abandon that strategy if it was part of the original plan. With so few attempts in just four games, it's hard to see where we’re trying to execute it.

What we’ve actually seen is more of the Commanders' approach—short-to-mid passes combined with the run game. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s not how we played in preseason, nor is it how the roster was built. Our short-to-mid passing game has been quite solid, but the run game has really struggled.

In the last game, passing stats were skewed by late-game drops and last second desperate throws. For most of the game, the passing was very effective—over 80%, maybe even 90% completion, with around 10 yards per play. What’s puzzling is why the team kept running straight into the defense when it was clearly not working, averaging just 1 yard per run. So, what exactly was the strategy there?
No struggle to understand the strategy, here.

The Giants are the first team to innovate in the building of a "prevent offense", with the overall Da-ball-less strategy of playing not to lose.
RE: RE: What I struggle to understand  
Blueworm : 10/1/2024 11:46 am : link
In comment 16632607 gridirony said:
Quote:
In comment 16632208 flyswimwalk said:


Quote:


is what is our offensive strategy. Based on roster movements and preseason games, it seemed like the plan was to focus on deep passes with some run plays mixed in. But over the last four games, that hasn’t been the case. While a few of DJ’s deep pass attempts didn’t work out, it’s way too early to abandon that strategy if it was part of the original plan. With so few attempts in just four games, it's hard to see where we’re trying to execute it.

What we’ve actually seen is more of the Commanders' approach—short-to-mid passes combined with the run game. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s not how we played in preseason, nor is it how the roster was built. Our short-to-mid passing game has been quite solid, but the run game has really struggled.

In the last game, passing stats were skewed by late-game drops and last second desperate throws. For most of the game, the passing was very effective—over 80%, maybe even 90% completion, with around 10 yards per play. What’s puzzling is why the team kept running straight into the defense when it was clearly not working, averaging just 1 yard per run. So, what exactly was the strategy there?

No struggle to understand the strategy, here.

The Giants are the first team to innovate in the building of a "prevent offense", with the overall Da-ball-less strategy of playing not to lose.


OK, fling it downfield with this guy. See what happens, if you haven't seen enough.
The Giants had to invest  
Lambuth_Special : 10/1/2024 11:57 am : link
A ton of resources into pass-blocking resources because hisotrically, Jones's pressure-to-sack ratio isn't good and he creates his own pressure.

So now the Giants have a good pass-blocking OL, but can't block for the run. Jones is now passing above-average in efficiency, but can't really hit explosive plays. Therefore, the Giants are struggling to put a ton of points on the board compared to Washington because they have to depend entirely on short-and-medium passing efficiency.
RE: RE: RE: What I struggle to understand  
gridirony : 10/1/2024 12:47 pm : link
In comment 16632690 Blueworm said:
Quote:
In comment 16632607 gridirony said:


Quote:


In comment 16632208 flyswimwalk said:


Quote:


is what is our offensive strategy. Based on roster movements and preseason games, it seemed like the plan was to focus on deep passes with some run plays mixed in. But over the last four games, that hasn’t been the case. While a few of DJ’s deep pass attempts didn’t work out, it’s way too early to abandon that strategy if it was part of the original plan. With so few attempts in just four games, it's hard to see where we’re trying to execute it.

What we’ve actually seen is more of the Commanders' approach—short-to-mid passes combined with the run game. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s not how we played in preseason, nor is it how the roster was built. Our short-to-mid passing game has been quite solid, but the run game has really struggled.

In the last game, passing stats were skewed by late-game drops and last second desperate throws. For most of the game, the passing was very effective—over 80%, maybe even 90% completion, with around 10 yards per play. What’s puzzling is why the team kept running straight into the defense when it was clearly not working, averaging just 1 yard per run. So, what exactly was the strategy there?

No struggle to understand the strategy, here.

The Giants are the first team to innovate in the building of a "prevent offense", with the overall Da-ball-less strategy of playing not to lose.



OK, fling it downfield with this guy. See what happens, if you haven't seen enough.
2nd and short to medium, fling it downfield to see what happens. Perhaps flinging it downfield, with the other two guys?

There's been running on 1st and 15, 3rd and 8 throwing it low or behind the receiver 5 yards down field, producing 1-2 yards after catch, then punting, or field goal attempts deep in opponent's end. Nothing says trying to win, only not trying to lose.

The worst thing about the Dallas game, at home, is that after Dallas took the lead, the Giants never attempted to take the lead back.

Entirely on Da-ball-less.
RE: RE: RE: RE: What I struggle to understand  
flyswimwalk : 10/1/2024 2:44 pm : link
Agreed. Those were the plays I didn't understand at all what the strategy was and why. And we saw those plays in previous games too.

In comment 16632747 gridirony said:
Quote:
In comment 16632690 Blueworm said:


Quote:


In comment 16632607 gridirony said:


Quote:


In comment 16632208 flyswimwalk said:


Quote:


is what is our offensive strategy. Based on roster movements and preseason games, it seemed like the plan was to focus on deep passes with some run plays mixed in. But over the last four games, that hasn’t been the case. While a few of DJ’s deep pass attempts didn’t work out, it’s way too early to abandon that strategy if it was part of the original plan. With so few attempts in just four games, it's hard to see where we’re trying to execute it.

What we’ve actually seen is more of the Commanders' approach—short-to-mid passes combined with the run game. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s not how we played in preseason, nor is it how the roster was built. Our short-to-mid passing game has been quite solid, but the run game has really struggled.

In the last game, passing stats were skewed by late-game drops and last second desperate throws. For most of the game, the passing was very effective—over 80%, maybe even 90% completion, with around 10 yards per play. What’s puzzling is why the team kept running straight into the defense when it was clearly not working, averaging just 1 yard per run. So, what exactly was the strategy there?

No struggle to understand the strategy, here.

The Giants are the first team to innovate in the building of a "prevent offense", with the overall Da-ball-less strategy of playing not to lose.



OK, fling it downfield with this guy. See what happens, if you haven't seen enough.

2nd and short to medium, fling it downfield to see what happens. Perhaps flinging it downfield, with the other two guys?

There's been running on 1st and 15, 3rd and 8 throwing it low or behind the receiver 5 yards down field, producing 1-2 yards after catch, then punting, or field goal attempts deep in opponent's end. Nothing says trying to win, only not trying to lose.

The worst thing about the Dallas game, at home, is that after Dallas took the lead, the Giants never attempted to take the lead back.

Entirely on Da-ball-less.
RE: Part of the Washington rushing success  
flyswimwalk : 10/1/2024 2:49 pm : link
Daniels only displayed his short to mid passes ability in the game. He was very accurate, no doubt about it. But if that's what you mean that the oppoent team needs to account for, the same to Jones. As I mentioned in the post, Jones was very accruate in the Cowboys game too. He was over 80-90% completion rate and 10 yards per pass before the end of game drops and desparate throws. Shouldn't Cowboy team account for that? If they didn't, why didn't we throw more? If they did, why our running game didn't benefit from that?


In comment 16632440 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Is that teams need to account for Daniels.

The run blocking grades for the players on the Washington line in 2023 vs 2024:

Wylie: 66/59.3
Coleman: NA/60.3
Biadasz: 68/63
Cosmi: 80.9/62.4
Allegretti: 65/62.2

So they aren’t run blocking well, everyone is having a worse year in 2024.
Jones was accurate because  
ajr2456 : 10/1/2024 10:09 pm : link
Dallas gave them the short/intermediate stuff


Teams need to account for Daniels deep ball and he’s a better runner than Jones
RE: Are you just ignoring Daniels historic  
The Jake : 10/2/2024 1:46 am : link
In comment 16632180 HardTruth said:
Quote:
Completion %

And the fact that they are winning and rarely punt

And that they beat us?

Otherwise yeah the situations are the same


LOL. So much stupid on this thread (and any others making excuses for our league-worst QB). Thank you for pointing out the obvious.
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