So much conversation with Jones, and the desire to get Devito in to replace him since there is no future with Lock. Believe me, I am advocate #1 in sending Jones to the bench like yesterday, but I would not go straight to Devito.
People talk about setting the right conditions to evaluate Jones and the QB position. But what about setting the proper conditions to evaluate Daboll and what his scheme needs to be successful? Drew Lock has by far the biggest arm of the QB room, a quality Daboll took advantage of with Josh Allen. Lock's arm means potential opportunities to make certain types of passes and the ability to push the ball down the field in a manner the other QB's cannot. The arm talent of Lock better approximates the version of QB arm talent that enabled everyone to become enamored with what Daboll was doing in Buffalo. Sure, Lock will not be able to produce anywhere near the level of Allen, or as consistently, but he can do some Allen "lite" things the other QB's cannot. I want to see if having a huge arm is a prerequisite to winning in this scheme.
To find out, I propose putting Lock in at QB to evaluate Daboll and his scheme with a big-armed QB. Lock may suck, but the goal is to learn something valuable about Daboll and his system, which traits are most important in the system, so that it can inform future decision making on QB prospects.
Commit to Lock for the next 3 games. Let's see what a rifle and a little reckless abandon looks like in this scheme. If Lock doesn't perform in this time, and there is no reason to think he will, we move to Devito and give him the remainder of the year to discover another side of learnings. Maybe he surprises, who knows. But hopefully we will have seen enough to add to our knowledge base to improve decision making on prospects.
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DeVito proved he can be a good backup based off his play last season. Why waste money on Lock? Should have allocated elsewhere. The third string QB could have been some UDFA.
Like I have said, if Jones stinks this week, you pull him at half time and put in Cutlets. Daboll has shown he wants to run his system a certain way, and Devito is probably better suited to running the 4 wide shotgun system. Jones is the choice if Daboll were to run the system he used 2022 and against Seattle. If Daboll insists on calling plays like he did in the 1st have against Cincinatti, then playing Jones is pointless.
Playing Jones isn't pointless if you are Daboll. He is the best QB on the roster, by far, and Dabs needs to win games.
Continually bringing up 2022 and the Seattle game is so dumb. A legitimate NFL QB should have been able to execute Daboll's game plan against Seattle. He can't read a defense.
Jones is just a bottom tier QB. Jones can play the rest of the year, then we look towards his replacement in 2025.
The fact of the matter is, Jones is better than both.
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In comment 16650011 Eightshamrocks said:
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DeVito proved he can be a good backup based off his play last season. Why waste money on Lock? Should have allocated elsewhere. The third string QB could have been some UDFA.
Like I have said, if Jones stinks this week, you pull him at half time and put in Cutlets. Daboll has shown he wants to run his system a certain way, and Devito is probably better suited to running the 4 wide shotgun system. Jones is the choice if Daboll were to run the system he used 2022 and against Seattle. If Daboll insists on calling plays like he did in the 1st have against Cincinatti, then playing Jones is pointless.
Playing Jones isn't pointless if you are Daboll. He is the best QB on the roster, by far, and Dabs needs to win games.
Continually bringing up 2022 and the Seattle game is so dumb. A legitimate NFL QB should have been able to execute Daboll's game plan against Seattle. He can't read a defense.
Jones is just a bottom tier QB. Jones can play the rest of the year, then we look towards his replacement in 2025.
In a certain way, we are actually in agreement. Jones is not a QB who can run the modern NFL offensive system that the majority of teams prefer to deploy these days. However, I have argued and will continue to argue that Jones can be successful if he were in a system more tailored to old school, run based football. Kind of like the Lions, Steelers, and a small number of other teams run. So to me the bottom line is if Brian Daboll insists on running the modern system of 4 wide shotgun, then Jones obviously is not the QB.
Will you listen to yourself?
Jones is a bottom tier QB. That's it.
Modern NFL system, old school system; Jones can't consistently run EITHER system.
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In comment 16650014 IchabodGiant said:
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In comment 16650011 Eightshamrocks said:
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DeVito proved he can be a good backup based off his play last season. Why waste money on Lock? Should have allocated elsewhere. The third string QB could have been some UDFA.
Like I have said, if Jones stinks this week, you pull him at half time and put in Cutlets. Daboll has shown he wants to run his system a certain way, and Devito is probably better suited to running the 4 wide shotgun system. Jones is the choice if Daboll were to run the system he used 2022 and against Seattle. If Daboll insists on calling plays like he did in the 1st have against Cincinatti, then playing Jones is pointless.
Playing Jones isn't pointless if you are Daboll. He is the best QB on the roster, by far, and Dabs needs to win games.
Continually bringing up 2022 and the Seattle game is so dumb. A legitimate NFL QB should have been able to execute Daboll's game plan against Seattle. He can't read a defense.
Jones is just a bottom tier QB. Jones can play the rest of the year, then we look towards his replacement in 2025.
In a certain way, we are actually in agreement. Jones is not a QB who can run the modern NFL offensive system that the majority of teams prefer to deploy these days. However, I have argued and will continue to argue that Jones can be successful if he were in a system more tailored to old school, run based football. Kind of like the Lions, Steelers, and a small number of other teams run. So to me the bottom line is if Brian Daboll insists on running the modern system of 4 wide shotgun, then Jones obviously is not the QB.
Will you listen to yourself?
Jones is a bottom tier QB. That's it.
Modern NFL system, old school system; Jones can't consistently run EITHER system.
Unfortunately that means we have to also; but hopefully brighter days ahead with a new QB in 2025.
2013 NFL Draft QB's: Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, Mike Glennon, Matt Barkley, Ryan Nassib, + six others.
2014: Derek Carr, Teddy Bridgewater, Jimmy Garoppolo, + nine others.
2015: Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota (#1 and #2 in the draft!), + five others.
Not one elite QB in three years. So, beware of hanging your hopes on next year's draft.
Bottom tier QB. Can't run an old school offense or modern offense consistently.
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In comment 16649854 The Jake said:
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I said it during the pre season
and I'll say it here again:
Tommy DeVito is the best QB on this roster.
full stop.
You were wrong last year, wrong in the preseason and you're wrong now.
And finishing your post with the words, "full stop" doesn't make DeVito any better than the #3 QB.
The evidence says
Jones is 3-9 with 8 TDs and 10 ints in 12 starts last 2 seasons
DeVito is 3-3 with 8 TDs and 3 ints in 6 games in last 2 seasons
DeVito also beat a playoff bound Packers team in prime time with 3 TDs (something Jones hasnt done in 5 years) and a game winning drive
Whats your evidence?
My evidence is not based on DeVito’s 6 game sample size.
My evidence is that in 2023, 32 NFL teams drafted 259 players, including 14 QBs and none of those teams thought that DeVito was worth even a 7th RD choice.
My evidence is also based on how Schoen and Daboll approached the backup QB position this past offseason. After watching DeVito in every practice and every game in 2023, if the Giants actually thought that DeVito was even close to the QB that Jones is, why would they spend the money on Lock? No team that thinks they have a viable, low-cost, backup QB on the roster, would spend $5M of their limited cap money to secure a 2nd-string QB… especially a team that has a number of other needs.
And while you mentioned DeVito’s win against Green Bay (which had more to do with the Giants D and the Packer’s ineptitude) you left out the fact that DeVito’s two other wins came against Washington and NE, two teams with the 2nd and 3rd worst records last year.
I’m as anti-Jones as any other Giants fan and I have no problem if the Giants want to sit Jones at some point this season. But if they do, Lock is the next QB up, not DeVito.
So glad the Steelers were brought up. You know what else the Steelers have done well? They've committed to organizational stability. The kind that allows front office execs, scouts, coaching staffs, and players to develop and grow in this uber competitive environment that is the NFL.
As we see, they're always competitive. When they have a difference maker at QB, they're dangerous. They're rarely a laughingstock. (Diva WRs have tested them though)
Some people just can't understand this though.
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I want whatever is going to get a new regime here.
You're still stuck on getting wins this year. Short term thinking.
I fully understand some of the rage that exists amongst Giants fans on this board. It's hard to watch the Giants and Daniel Jones continue to struggle in the primetime spotlight. It's hard to keep taking the shots that come our way from friends, family, co-workers that root for other teams. (My brother's family are Eagles fans)
Ownership stepped out of their comfort zone and hired a young first time GM and his pick at head coach. They are aligned and they have improved this roster. They chose to set the QB floor with Jones while developing the rest of the roster. They looked to upgrade that floor this past draft but were unable to do so. They'll continue the work of upgrading the roster, including QB, this offseason.
You may disagree with the floor Jones sets vs other QB options that were out there, and the cap dollars those options result in. We don't know the whole story. We don't know the culture/locker room dynamic, for example. The two "bridge" QBs the Steelers brought in stepped into an established environment, years in the making. The next Giants QB will hopefully get to do the same, next year.
Tanking (intentional losing), plucking the OC du jour from some other established environment or a retread HC, along with drafting (potentially overdrafting) a rookie QB and demanding they win consistently in two years or else.......well that's short term thinking in my book.
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The organization wanted Jones, so they need to eat the DJ shit sandwich every week. No cop outs; no exit ramp. All season.
Unfortunately that means we have to also; but hopefully brighter days ahead with a new QB in 2025.
2013 NFL Draft QB's: Geno Smith, EJ Manuel, Mike Glennon, Matt Barkley, Ryan Nassib, + six others.
2014: Derek Carr, Teddy Bridgewater, Jimmy Garoppolo, + nine others.
2015: Jameis Winston, Marcus Mariota (#1 and #2 in the draft!), + five others.
Not one elite QB in three years. So, beware of hanging your hopes on next year's draft.
Geno Smith and Derek Carr turned out okay. Bridgewater and Mariota were marred by injuries.
What you posted there just tells me that QBs can be found and if developed properly can get the job done.
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I said it during the pre season
and I'll say it here again:
Tommy DeVito is the best QB on this roster.
full stop.
You were wrong last year, wrong in the preseason and you're wrong now.
And finishing your post with the words, "full stop" doesn't make DeVito any better than the #3 QB.
Haha - Well done Jim!
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In comment 16649924 Jim in Tampa said:
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In comment 16649854 The Jake said:
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I said it during the pre season
and I'll say it here again:
Tommy DeVito is the best QB on this roster.
full stop.
You were wrong last year, wrong in the preseason and you're wrong now.
And finishing your post with the words, "full stop" doesn't make DeVito any better than the #3 QB.
The evidence says
Jones is 3-9 with 8 TDs and 10 ints in 12 starts last 2 seasons
DeVito is 3-3 with 8 TDs and 3 ints in 6 games in last 2 seasons
DeVito also beat a playoff bound Packers team in prime time with 3 TDs (something Jones hasnt done in 5 years) and a game winning drive
Whats your evidence?
My evidence is not based on DeVito’s 6 game sample size.
My evidence is that in 2023, 32 NFL teams drafted 259 players, including 14 QBs and none of those teams thought that DeVito was worth even a 7th RD choice.
My evidence is also based on how Schoen and Daboll approached the backup QB position this past offseason. After watching DeVito in every practice and every game in 2023, if the Giants actually thought that DeVito was even close to the QB that Jones is, why would they spend the money on Lock? No team that thinks they have a viable, low-cost, backup QB on the roster, would spend $5M of their limited cap money to secure a 2nd-string QB… especially a team that has a number of other needs.
And while you mentioned DeVito’s win against Green Bay (which had more to do with the Giants D and the Packer’s ineptitude) you left out the fact that DeVito’s two other wins came against Washington and NE, two teams with the 2nd and 3rd worst records last year.
I’m as anti-Jones as any other Giants fan and I have no problem if the Giants want to sit Jones at some point this season. But if they do, Lock is the next QB up, not DeVito.
To be fair, DeVito being a UDFA is evidence for nothing at this point. He has actual NFL film and if he had somehow re-entered last year's draft he wouldn't have been a UDFA. If the Giants cut him he'd have quite a few teams interested.
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Pittsburgh has put on a clinic on how to manage the QB position until you find the right long-term solution.
So glad the Steelers were brought up. You know what else the Steelers have done well? They've committed to organizational stability. The kind that allows front office execs, scouts, coaching staffs, and players to develop and grow in this uber competitive environment that is the NFL.
As we see, they're always competitive. When they have a difference maker at QB, they're dangerous. They're rarely a laughingstock. (Diva WRs have tested them though)
Some people just can't understand this though.
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Go Terps : 10/16/2024 7:44 pm :
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I want whatever is going to get a new regime here.
You're still stuck on getting wins this year. Short term thinking.
I fully understand some of the rage that exists amongst Giants fans on this board. It's hard to watch the Giants and Daniel Jones continue to struggle in the primetime spotlight. It's hard to keep taking the shots that come our way from friends, family, co-workers that root for other teams. (My brother's family are Eagles fans)
Ownership stepped out of their comfort zone and hired a young first time GM and his pick at head coach. They are aligned and they have improved this roster. They chose to set the QB floor with Jones while developing the rest of the roster. They looked to upgrade that floor this past draft but were unable to do so. They'll continue the work of upgrading the roster, including QB, this offseason.
You may disagree with the floor Jones sets vs other QB options that were out there, and the cap dollars those options result in. We don't know the whole story. We don't know the culture/locker room dynamic, for example. The two "bridge" QBs the Steelers brought in stepped into an established environment, years in the making. The next Giants QB will hopefully get to do the same, next year.
Tanking (intentional losing), plucking the OC du jour from some other established environment or a retread HC, along with drafting (potentially overdrafting) a rookie QB and demanding they win consistently in two years or else.......well that's short term thinking in my book.
Have they improved the roster? Here we are 2-4 (win 1/3 of their games which is exactly what they have done since 2022) with a last place schedule and with two losses in a struggling division. Their choice next season is to either extend their shaky qb or pay him the equivalent of Andrew Thomas' LT salary to be rid of him. The OL is better at pass blocking but worse at run blocking. It can certainly appear to reasonable people that Schoen and Daboll have done nothing but re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.
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In comment 16649944 HardTruth said:
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In comment 16649924 Jim in Tampa said:
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In comment 16649854 The Jake said:
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I said it during the pre season
and I'll say it here again:
Tommy DeVito is the best QB on this roster.
full stop.
You were wrong last year, wrong in the preseason and you're wrong now.
And finishing your post with the words, "full stop" doesn't make DeVito any better than the #3 QB.
The evidence says
Jones is 3-9 with 8 TDs and 10 ints in 12 starts last 2 seasons
DeVito is 3-3 with 8 TDs and 3 ints in 6 games in last 2 seasons
DeVito also beat a playoff bound Packers team in prime time with 3 TDs (something Jones hasnt done in 5 years) and a game winning drive
Whats your evidence?
My evidence is not based on DeVito’s 6 game sample size.
My evidence is that in 2023, 32 NFL teams drafted 259 players, including 14 QBs and none of those teams thought that DeVito was worth even a 7th RD choice.
My evidence is also based on how Schoen and Daboll approached the backup QB position this past offseason. After watching DeVito in every practice and every game in 2023, if the Giants actually thought that DeVito was even close to the QB that Jones is, why would they spend the money on Lock? No team that thinks they have a viable, low-cost, backup QB on the roster, would spend $5M of their limited cap money to secure a 2nd-string QB… especially a team that has a number of other needs.
And while you mentioned DeVito’s win against Green Bay (which had more to do with the Giants D and the Packer’s ineptitude) you left out the fact that DeVito’s two other wins came against Washington and NE, two teams with the 2nd and 3rd worst records last year.
I’m as anti-Jones as any other Giants fan and I have no problem if the Giants want to sit Jones at some point this season. But if they do, Lock is the next QB up, not DeVito.
To be fair, DeVito being a UDFA is evidence for nothing at this point. He has actual NFL film and if he had somehow re-entered last year's draft he wouldn't have been a UDFA. If the Giants cut him he'd have quite a few teams interested.
I agree that (based on his play last year) if DeVito were somehow eligible for the most recent NFL draft, he would have been drafted. But it wouldn't be as anything more than a 3rd string QB. I don't think there are any teams (including the Giants) that currently view DeVito as a viable #2 QB. Do you?
And as far as DeVito being an UDFA, I do think that it has at least some relevance.
Let's compare DeVito to another undrafted QB, Tony Romo. In Romo's rookie season of 2004 he threw exactly ZERO passes in a regular season game. Yet in 2005 the Cowboys carried just 2 QBs, Bledsoe (the starter) and Romo.
Despite the fact that Romo had almost no experience and hadn't even attempted a pass yet, the Cowboys thought enough of Romo in 2005 to make him the backup QB. They didn't spend money on another 2nd string QB.
Kurt Warner is another example of an undrafted QB with limited experience in his rookie season of 1998 (1 game, 4 completions for 39 yrds.) The Rams thought highly enough of Warner, despite his inexperience, to go into the 1999 season with Warner as the backup to Trent Green.
So after Devito played in 9 games, including 6 starts, while throwing 178 passes... Why did the Giants spend give a $5M guaranteed contract to Lock and declare him to be the backup QB?
Daboll might not be a good HC, but I think that he, along with Kafka and Tierney, know QB talent when they see it. And they don't think that DeVito is ready to be a #2 QB, let alone start over Jones.
Have they improved the roster? Here we are 2-4 (win 1/3 of their games which is exactly what they have done since 2022) with a last place schedule and with two losses in a struggling division. Their choice next season is to either extend their shaky qb or pay him the equivalent of Andrew Thomas' LT salary to be rid of him. The OL is better at pass blocking but worse at run blocking. It can certainly appear to reasonable people that Schoen and Daboll have done nothing but re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic.
Fair counterpoint Homer. Although with all due respect, you've established yourself in this community as one of the most bitter and jaded posters. I can appreciate an elder statesman who cautions against repeating past mistakes he's lived through. But after having to sift through your usual hyperbolic terms like "Jawn", "train wreck", and "steaming dump", I imagine anyone interested in finding solutions would have to escort you out of the board room.
We do agree the stability exited with TC. There needed to be someone to pass the torch to, and there wasn't. TC shares some accountability there as his tree was bare. There also needed to be someone to pass the GM torch to. A lot of folks have accountability there as it appears the scouting ranks and development of executives was severely lacking. I could be wrong, but it appeared the focus on that under Schoen (seen on Hard Knocks) is an improvement. No?
With regards to the roster, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Simply pointing to the record to declare this regime's competence and the state of the roster at this point is just more jaded "rage". I notice you left out the defense and only focused on the QB and OL.
This whole QB situation is in Joe Schoen's lap. He offered Jones the ridiculously high contract that was approved by the co-owner of the team, but Schoen created the contract that Jones signed.
Schoen is also responsible for the lack of quality in the QB room by signing Drew Lock and not cutting Tommy DeVito.
Joe Schoen is surviving on borrowed time, and he should hear the wrath of the fans while we continue hollering about the level of ineptness at that position on Schoen's team.
If I was the HC of the Giants I would bench Jones and hand the ball to Drew Lock. If Lock is as lousy as everyone claims, then the Giants will have to draft their next starting QB in the 2025 NFL Draft.
Maybe because it is Jones or bust. If he signed a Andy Dalton or Flacco there would be pressure to play them and end up winning 7 or 8 games thereby keeping the Giants in QB hell longer. If Jones had a huge resurgence they would go with him and not go for a QB next year
That's why he hasn't replaced Daniel Jones