Most of his rookie successes were against god-awful defenses. And then in 2022 Daboll got him and Saquon to keep a few others off balance, but it didn't last long.
In between, playing well hardly ever occurred (except against maybe a few WFT games) so don't think there was a real factor to point to.
When playing on the road. He hates playing at home.
And yet the win loss record is virtually identical (losing record in both cases, 12-21 & 12-20-1). So what do we make of this? He sucks equally at home and on the road.
And he needs to be stationary when he passes. If one of these two conditions is absent, the outcome is usually not good. And if both conditions are absent, just move on to the next play.
When he plays well, he’s much more reactionary than his poor games where he seems to sit and think in the pocket.
For a physically tough kid, he isn’t very mentally tough, you can rattle him pretty easily and if he gets knocked out of rhythm early on, its very rare he gets back into it.
RE: RE: He has all the physical tools you are looking
for, which is why I think they have stuck with him for this long.
But mentally he cannot hack it if something negative happens especially at the beginning of the game. He can't recover.
And that is what separates a franchise QB from a mediocre one.
I understand the physical tools you are referring to, but Daniel Jones is also missing two very critical physical tools:
(1) He doesn't have the quicks. Nothing he does is speeded up, especially in the pocket. He doesn't slip and slide very well, he doesn't dart the ball out of his hand, and he doesn't accelerate very quickly. He's gangly and it takes him some time to get full control of his limbs.
(2) He does not throw very well on the run -- he can't torque he body very well to get any authority on the ball.
When he's off, all levels of his passing tree are an adventure. Even if he is doing everything else sort of right, when the ball isn't on the money, it's hard to look 'good'.
That said, he rarely looks good. A mediocre game is usually what people call good for DJ.
His team mates often let the team down, and that affects DJ stats and final score, but that isn't DJ not playing well.
Obviously, the opposing defense has a big impact. If they're shutting down WR, and the run game, it's hard for a QB to look good. In the past, this was the huge argument for not being able to judge DJ - that it was too easy to dominate the OL, and thus the run game and the pass rush, and the WR were meh, at best.
Typical shot down comment that this pathetic forum fanbase has become.... It's like you can't wait to be the clever putdown guy.
Sure, it's a sarcastic quip. But, nobody is waiting to be clever and nobody is rooting to be right about Jones sucking. Everybody would love to see a lights out QB (and overall team play) from now until week 17. But, the reality is, even the optimistic nature of the thread starter question is ridiculous.
First, he has not played "well" with any kind of consistency, so there is nothing to take from it and nothing to build on. The issue is JONES can't replicate it consistently, not the scheme, coaching, etc.
Second, his playing "well" is not really a very good game. Look at Seattle, for example. By all accounts, that was his best game in forever and some called it his best game as a Giant or since his rookie year. 257 yards and 2 TDs with 11 carries for 38 yards. That's not a great stat line. It is decent. It is not special; it is what is expected routinely from a good QB. That's like a barometer game for a good QB and this is the absolute, far and away best we've seen from Jones in forever. And then, what does he follow that up with the next week against a shitty passing D? A complete shitshow.
I find it more frustrating that if by some miracle we do play well and win on Sunday, that people will point to the 1 game as an example that we can win with Jones moving forward. That is way more frustrating than the wise-ass put downs that are too easy and just seem like piling on at this point (and of which I have probably been a little guilty of myself). 1 fucking game is proof of nothing. We get that with the Minny playoff game far too often. It's like the following week, which was far worse than the Minny game was good, never happened. It's like the overwhelming collection of absolute stinkers over 6 seasons never happened. And then we are supposed to hang our hats and hopes on the 2022 season as a whole, which itself was underwhelming as far as modern QB play. It was MEDIOCRE, but because Jones was overwhelmingly so bad, a lot people mistook that for good. It was a meh season for a QB that overall team play overcame.
He's like a #4 or #5 starting pitcher in a baseball rotation. Sure, occasionally he'll have good games. The problem is he absolutely cannot do it consistently because he has a number of defects. Sometimes the stars align and he looks ok or even good, it just doesn't happen often enough.
It’s no different than when Mitch Trubisky would play well. You give any reasonably talented NFL QB enough starts and some of them are going to be good.
The problem is that with Jones too many people assume the good games are the real him and everything else are anomalies, as opposed to vice versa.
When he plays well, he’s much more reactionary than his poor games where he seems to sit and think in the pocket.
For a physically tough kid, he isn’t very mentally tough, you can rattle him pretty easily and if he gets knocked out of rhythm early on, its very rare he gets back into it.
As has been said often he's very mechanical.
I can relate, as when I was doing CrossFit my Olympic lifts were very mechanical. I had to think about every step of the lift, which slowed me down. I couldn't develop the feel and muscle memory.
Moving to powerlifting, my lifts are much more natural and the muscle memory is there, I don't have to think "okay I need the bar here, my elbows here" so on
Most do. It's not the fact that he did well against bad defenses. It's that he ONLY does well against bad defenses. A good QB, a top 10 QB (which is how he was paid when the contract was signed) plays well more often than not, regardless of the defense and wins more often than not.
When playing on the road. He hates playing at home.
And yet the win loss record is virtually identical (losing record in both cases, 12-21 & 12-20-1). So what do we make of this? He sucks equally at home and on the road.
Was the losses offensive, defensive, coaching blunders or a gumbo of failures?
When playing on the road. He hates playing at home.
And yet the win loss record is virtually identical (losing record in both cases, 12-21 & 12-20-1). So what do we make of this? He sucks equally at home and on the road.
Was the losses offensive, defensive, coaching blunders or a gumbo of failures?
With apologies to Dr Suess
DJ doesn't win games here or there
DJ does not win games anywhere
If the running game (including Jones scrambles) gets going, he's often able to put together a respectable game. Competent defenses that can take that away and make Jones beat them through the air make him look silly.
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
This must the most fundamentally inaccurate post in the history of this site.
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
This must the most fundamentally inaccurate post in the history of this site.
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
This must the most fundamentally inaccurate post in the history of this site.
When he plays well, he’s much more reactionary than his poor games where he seems to sit and think in the pocket.
For a physically tough kid, he isn’t very mentally tough, you can rattle him pretty easily and if he gets knocked out of rhythm early on, its very rare he gets back into it.
Yep.
Likely, he's much better when he sees the fronts and coverages that he prepared for.
When he gets looks other than the one's he saw on tape, he's thinking instead of simply reacting. It could be something as simple as leverage. If he thinks his 1st read is taken away he's doesn't seem quick to pivot another 1st read so he checks down or looks to run.
I also think that if he thinks that he's going to get pressure, he is quick to throw a hot read, which may not be there if the WR doesn't get the same presnap read.
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
Almost everything stated in this post is wrong. You may want to take some time to learn about the NFL, the QB position, etc.
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
Almost everything stated in this post is wrong. You may want to take some time to learn about the NFL, the QB position, etc.
Explain how. You don't understand the cobcept that more recivers=more route trees= more coverages=more reads for the QB?
The running game. When the giants can run, it makes the giants less predictable and allows the giants to become a little more creative. Otherwise, the opposing team can stay in the 2 deep shell and force the giants to dink and dunk.
In between, playing well hardly ever occurred (except against maybe a few WFT games) so don't think there was a real factor to point to.
So we just need to draft a college QB that has a good home record, and rotate them?
And yet the win loss record is virtually identical (losing record in both cases, 12-21 & 12-20-1). So what do we make of this? He sucks equally at home and on the road.
Nearly a third of those were from 3 games from his rookie season. It’s 28 and 14 since then.
So he is a ... back up QB?
But mentally he cannot hack it if something negative happens especially at the beginning of the game. He can't recover.
And that is what separates a franchise QB from a mediocre one.
Second half against Az last year, not sure.
Seattle played Detroit the week prior. There is a hangover effect playing Det. Wasn't just Jones, the run game was working too.
Sucks Dal is on their bye this week because it would've been interesting to see after playing Det last week.
Those are the last 3 times I recall Jones "playing well"
I was at the Arizona game. It looked like on every play the assignment for the Arizona defense in the second half was just:
Stand there, apply no push rush, we need to lose to improve our draft, the Giants aren't getting in our way.
But mentally he cannot hack it if something negative happens especially at the beginning of the game. He can't recover.
And that is what separates a franchise QB from a mediocre one.
You know its coming, too.
I was surprised 0% when he threw that moron interception vs the Bengals.
But mentally he cannot hack it if something negative happens especially at the beginning of the game. He can't recover.
And that is what separates a franchise QB from a mediocre one.
Nah, his arm is average at best at this point. Especially compared to all the other QBs in the league.
But mentally he cannot hack it if something negative happens especially at the beginning of the game. He can't recover.
And that is what separates a franchise QB from a mediocre one.
The franchise has stuck with him because they aren't good at their jobs. They mentally cannot hack it.
That is what separates a good franchise from a bad one.
For a physically tough kid, he isn’t very mentally tough, you can rattle him pretty easily and if he gets knocked out of rhythm early on, its very rare he gets back into it.
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for, which is why I think they have stuck with him for this long.
But mentally he cannot hack it if something negative happens especially at the beginning of the game. He can't recover.
And that is what separates a franchise QB from a mediocre one.
The franchise has stuck with him because they aren't good at their jobs. They mentally cannot hack it.
That is what separates a good franchise from a bad one.
Both of these takes are correct. The front office suffers from the same type of mental blocks as the QB they can’t quit.
But mentally he cannot hack it if something negative happens especially at the beginning of the game. He can't recover.
And that is what separates a franchise QB from a mediocre one.
I understand the physical tools you are referring to, but Daniel Jones is also missing two very critical physical tools:
(1) He doesn't have the quicks. Nothing he does is speeded up, especially in the pocket. He doesn't slip and slide very well, he doesn't dart the ball out of his hand, and he doesn't accelerate very quickly. He's gangly and it takes him some time to get full control of his limbs.
(2) He does not throw very well on the run -- he can't torque he body very well to get any authority on the ball.
That said, he rarely looks good. A mediocre game is usually what people call good for DJ.
His team mates often let the team down, and that affects DJ stats and final score, but that isn't DJ not playing well.
Obviously, the opposing defense has a big impact. If they're shutting down WR, and the run game, it's hard for a QB to look good. In the past, this was the huge argument for not being able to judge DJ - that it was too easy to dominate the OL, and thus the run game and the pass rush, and the WR were meh, at best.
Typical shot down comment that this pathetic forum fanbase has become.... It's like you can't wait to be the clever putdown guy.
Quote:
I'll let you know when it happens
Typical shot down comment that this pathetic forum fanbase has become.... It's like you can't wait to be the clever putdown guy.
Laughing at it is all we have left. And guys like you that help make it happen.
So thanks.
And at this point in time after 6 f’n years who cares? He ain’t the guy, period.
Quote:
I'll let you know when it happens
Typical shot down comment that this pathetic forum fanbase has become.... It's like you can't wait to be the clever putdown guy.
First, he has not played "well" with any kind of consistency, so there is nothing to take from it and nothing to build on. The issue is JONES can't replicate it consistently, not the scheme, coaching, etc.
Second, his playing "well" is not really a very good game. Look at Seattle, for example. By all accounts, that was his best game in forever and some called it his best game as a Giant or since his rookie year. 257 yards and 2 TDs with 11 carries for 38 yards. That's not a great stat line. It is decent. It is not special; it is what is expected routinely from a good QB. That's like a barometer game for a good QB and this is the absolute, far and away best we've seen from Jones in forever. And then, what does he follow that up with the next week against a shitty passing D? A complete shitshow.
I find it more frustrating that if by some miracle we do play well and win on Sunday, that people will point to the 1 game as an example that we can win with Jones moving forward. That is way more frustrating than the wise-ass put downs that are too easy and just seem like piling on at this point (and of which I have probably been a little guilty of myself). 1 fucking game is proof of nothing. We get that with the Minny playoff game far too often. It's like the following week, which was far worse than the Minny game was good, never happened. It's like the overwhelming collection of absolute stinkers over 6 seasons never happened. And then we are supposed to hang our hats and hopes on the 2022 season as a whole, which itself was underwhelming as far as modern QB play. It was MEDIOCRE, but because Jones was overwhelmingly so bad, a lot people mistook that for good. It was a meh season for a QB that overall team play overcame.
This is insane.
Also, charge your phone.
It’s no different than when Mitch Trubisky would play well. You give any reasonably talented NFL QB enough starts and some of them are going to be good.
The problem is that with Jones too many people assume the good games are the real him and everything else are anomalies, as opposed to vice versa.
For a physically tough kid, he isn’t very mentally tough, you can rattle him pretty easily and if he gets knocked out of rhythm early on, its very rare he gets back into it.
As has been said often he's very mechanical.
I can relate, as when I was doing CrossFit my Olympic lifts were very mechanical. I had to think about every step of the lift, which slowed me down. I couldn't develop the feel and muscle memory.
Moving to powerlifting, my lifts are much more natural and the muscle memory is there, I don't have to think "okay I need the bar here, my elbows here" so on
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isn't that what all QB's do to bad defenses?
Most do. It's not the fact that he did well against bad defenses. It's that he ONLY does well against bad defenses.
Exactly.
And more often than not, he doesn't even do well against bad defenses. We witnessed that just the other night versus Cincy.
Actually, it's his only hope.
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When playing on the road. He hates playing at home.
And yet the win loss record is virtually identical (losing record in both cases, 12-21 & 12-20-1). So what do we make of this? He sucks equally at home and on the road.
Was the losses offensive, defensive, coaching blunders or a gumbo of failures?
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In comment 16651908 Amc825 said:
Quote:
When playing on the road. He hates playing at home.
And yet the win loss record is virtually identical (losing record in both cases, 12-21 & 12-20-1). So what do we make of this? He sucks equally at home and on the road.
Was the losses offensive, defensive, coaching blunders or a gumbo of failures?
With apologies to Dr Suess
DJ doesn't win games here or there
DJ does not win games anywhere
This must the most fundamentally inaccurate post in the history of this site.
Quote:
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
This must the most fundamentally inaccurate post in the history of this site.
Quote:
In comment 16652753 Eightshamrocks said:
Quote:
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
This must the most fundamentally inaccurate post in the history of this site.
How so?
Mostly because of your last 3 words.
Daniel Jones would spontaneously combust if he had to run the Gilbride offense Manning ran.
For a physically tough kid, he isn’t very mentally tough, you can rattle him pretty easily and if he gets knocked out of rhythm early on, its very rare he gets back into it.
Likely, he's much better when he sees the fronts and coverages that he prepared for.
When he gets looks other than the one's he saw on tape, he's thinking instead of simply reacting. It could be something as simple as leverage. If he thinks his 1st read is taken away he's doesn't seem quick to pivot another 1st read so he checks down or looks to run.
I also think that if he thinks that he's going to get pressure, he is quick to throw a hot read, which may not be there if the WR doesn't get the same presnap read.
Almost everything stated in this post is wrong. You may want to take some time to learn about the NFL, the QB position, etc.
Daniel Jones would spontaneously combust if he had to run the Gilbride offense Manning ran.
Quote:
I see the majority of people here complaining that Jones is inconsistent. Well, I've got news for you, about 85% of the QB's in the league are inconsistent, and thats not even including colossal busts who flame out. So, what you are expecting of your starting QB is not likely to happen. Even Josh Allen has had God awful games this season. This comes down to the modern NFL and the spread, shut gun system that is employed which requires the QB to be able to accurately read muliple coverages every shap. That neber existed back in the day. As a result, it is much more difficult to find a truly elite QB. Blame the current system in the NFL. Don't blame Jones.
Almost everything stated in this post is wrong. You may want to take some time to learn about the NFL, the QB position, etc.
Daniel Jones would spontaneously combust if he had to run the Gilbride offense Manning ran.
But the Gilbide scheme was not the norm in the NFL. That was the run and shoot with multiple route options by the receivers.
Yes, that is an example of a difficult offense. The spread concepts most NFL teams use, and the elements Daboll specifically uses are not.
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The law of average. Any QB can have a good game here and there.
So he is a ... back up QB?
Always was.