We should go back and look at a transcript of Schoen’s 2022 post season press conference which was right after the loss to the Eagles. He proudly announced that Jones would be back the next year even knowing his contract was up. This showed they thought they could win with Jones and telegraphed that if they didn’t get a contract with Jones done they would use the franchise tag on him.
Mara said he has been told by the front office that it's the "most talented group [of quarterbacks] to come out in years.
"I don't think it has any effect if they have a conviction on a quarterback and fall in love with a quarterback," he said. "I'm certainly not going to stand in the way of them."
Giants owner John Mara gives green light to draft quarterback - ( New Window )
Press conferences, interviews, TV shows, we'll never really know what goes on in the building.
However if you've been a fan of this team for a while, you get a sense of what's happening.
John Mara is similar to his father who dragged this franchise down foyer years before the league had to intervene. And now he's doing the same thing.
It's in his DNA.
This is why I kind of admire Coughlin for simply icing out Collins once he got the job in 2004.
This is why I kind of admire Coughlin for simply icing out Collins once he got the job in 2004.
They needed to move on after 2021. That was the mistake.
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From Shurmur, Judge, Garrett, Gettleman on down, multiple coaches and GMs have come in here and fallen in love with Jones. He looks the part and flatters coaches consistently. Remember him showing up to Daboll's intro press conference and immediately working with him to try to identify plays a liked best, etc.
This is why I kind of admire Coughlin for simply icing out Collins once he got the job in 2004.
They needed to move on after 2021. That was the mistake.
My take is the second you decide you don't want to exercise a players 5th year option you should move on from them. We have the decision on Neal coming up next season, I know we're not exercising it, find a team that thinks they can fix him because they loved him in the draft and get what you an for him.
Yes here and there a guy will play well and break out of it, but more often than not they won't, just get your picks and move on.
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From Shurmur, Judge, Garrett, Gettleman on down, multiple coaches and GMs have come in here and fallen in love with Jones. He looks the part and flatters coaches consistently. Remember him showing up to Daboll's intro press conference and immediately working with him to try to identify plays a liked best, etc.
This is why I kind of admire Coughlin for simply icing out Collins once he got the job in 2004.
They needed to move on after 2021. That was the mistake.
Indeed, it was more half-assery as we've seen from this franchise. Decline his 5th-year option, bring in Tyrod, and by all accounts Tyrod was better in camp in 2022 (and was better than Jones in the games he played in 2023), but nope, Jones is the starter.
Then in retrospect, Jones lucked out majorly in the beginning of 2022. Missed FG by the Titans in a game that Barkley carried and a dropped pick six by the Panthers (in a typical meh Jones home game, though at least he threw a TD) were the difference between 2-1 and 0-3.
This is why I kind of admire Coughlin for simply icing out Collins once he got the job in 2004.
Gettleman drafted him after falling “full bloom in love”, so it’s no wonder he’d have been infatuated with Jones. I 100% disagree about Shurmur, during the press conference with DG, Shurmur looked like he was part of a hostage video while DG went on about how great Jones was.
And Judge nor Garrett had any love for him. Judge forced Garrett to simplify the offense so Jones wouldn’t turn it over so much. Daboll and Schoen went in the eyes open, I think they knew what they had in Jones (hence the decision not to exercise his option), but hoped they could manage his liabilities by maximizing his assets.
So that leaves us with Mara, who has repeatedly gone out of his way to praise Jones at every opportunity, and to whine about how the organization mistreated him.
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From Shurmur, Judge, Garrett, Gettleman on down, multiple coaches and GMs have come in here and fallen in love with Jones. He looks the part and flatters coaches consistently. Remember him showing up to Daboll's intro press conference and immediately working with him to try to identify plays a liked best, etc.
This is why I kind of admire Coughlin for simply icing out Collins once he got the job in 2004.
Gettleman drafted him after falling “full bloom in love”, so it’s no wonder he’d have been infatuated with Jones. I 100% disagree about Shurmur, during the press conference with DG, Shurmur looked like he was part of a hostage video while DG went on about how great Jones was.
And Judge nor Garrett had any love for him. Judge forced Garrett to simplify the offense so Jones wouldn’t turn it over so much. Daboll and Schoen went in the eyes open, I think they knew what they had in Jones (hence the decision not to exercise his option), but hoped they could manage his liabilities by maximizing his assets.
So that leaves us with Mara, who has repeatedly gone out of his way to praise Jones at every opportunity, and to whine about how the organization mistreated him.
I don't know about Shurmur, but the first thing Judge did after getting fired was volunteer how much he liked Daniel Jones. Jones also attended his Irish wake after he got canned. As for Garrett, he was over-the-moon as an analyst after Jones won the playoff game in Minnesota.
Jones is 6"5" and a teacher's pet/grinder type in the training facility and the locker room, so he presents all the qualities that flatter NFL coaches and personnel, who for the most part are morons. In some ways he reminds me of Ben Simmons in that we had to hear constantly about the game-changing combination of physique, skill and intelligence he possessed that never consistently showed up on the basketball court, and he eventually regressed to near-uselessness like we're seeing with Jones now.
And they're sort of right. Mara probably would not be that explicit. Mara is a spineless, cowardly type of leader. The type that wants influence but shirks accountability. The passive aggressive type that won't actually say what they want but will fire his less favored employees if they don't deliver exactly what he's looking for. We've all worked with people like this and it sucks. It's shitty, cowardly leadership.
We do know that Mara loves Daniel Jones. Loves him. And we know that Mara fires people frequently. We also know he's always hanging around the facility, going to meeting, chiming in with his mumbly comments.
So he's doing something. He has strong opinions. He doesn't give direct instruction. And he's more than willing to fire people if he doesn't get what he wants. It's up to everyone else to fill in the blanks.
The one thing we do know though is that the CEO isn't getting fired.
make wink highest paid DC then blow up the relationship?
hire bobby johnson then sign glowinski/feliciano?
draft neal/thibs top 7?
let love/mckinney go for nothing?
trade a 3rd round pick for waller to get hurt like always then retire?
sign parris campbell for $4m to be an inactive after the first month?
lose multiple games playing unhealthy kickers?
go all in on a pass first offense with daniel jones coming off torn acl?
i mean the one thing we know with certainty is that mara loved barkley yet didnt make them bring him back over a prolonged 2 year negotiation where the difference between offers exchanged was miniscule. and now barkley is having a career year in PHI avg'ing 130 total ypg and 1 td per game at 6.1 ypc while the same aged 206 pound rb they signed in his place has with a bigger workload gotten banged up and reverted back to his fumbling ways.
make wink highest paid DC then blow up the relationship?
hire bobby johnson then sign glowinski/feliciano?
draft neal/thibs top 7?
let love/mckinney go for nothing?
trade a 3rd round pick for waller to get hurt like always then retire?
sign parris campbell for $4m to be an inactive after the first month?
lose multiple games playing unhealthy kickers?
go all in on a pass first offense with daniel jones coming off torn acl?
i mean the one thing we know with certainty is that mara loved barkley yet didnt make them bring him back over a prolonged 2 year negotiation where the difference between offers exchanged was miniscule. and now barkley is having a career year in PHI avg'ing 130 total ypg and 1 td per game at 6.1 ypc while the same aged 206 pound rb they signed in his place has with a bigger workload gotten banged up and reverted back to his fumbling ways.
I'm here. I'm over the Mara excuse. This is Schoen & Daboll's team.
It's on them.
I don't think it's a coincidence that every coach John Mara has hired has been essentially a first time head coach. They're going to be easier to control.
Hopefully the next guy is someone with some experience.
And they're sort of right. Mara probably would not be that explicit. Mara is a spineless, cowardly type of leader. The type that wants influence but shirks accountability. The passive aggressive type that won't actually say what they want but will fire his less favored employees if they don't deliver exactly what he's looking for. We've all worked with people like this and it sucks. It's shitty, cowardly leadership.
We do know that Mara loves Daniel Jones. Loves him. And we know that Mara fires people frequently. We also know he's always hanging around the facility, going to meeting, chiming in with his mumbly comments.
Mara certainly likes Jones but he's given plenty of opportunities for multiple coach/GM combos to shut the door on him but they haven't.
He said that they could've drafted a QB in April. He let them decline Jones's 5th year option. Hell, we'd all feel better right now if that 2023 pick was spent on Hendon Hooker instead of Jaylin Hyatt and I doubt Mara would've stammered over it.
Tom Coughlin iced Kerry Collins out the second he was hired despite Wellington loving KC. Jim Fassell took five games to nail Dave Brown's ass to the bench despite being explicitly hired to salvage him by George Young, and Young loved Brown (coincidentally comparing his career trajectory to Simms the way some tried to do with Jones).
Occam's razor is that Schoen and Daboll like Jones and just aren't that smart or competent. NFL teams win 57 percent of their games at home. Jones's home splits going into this season were a big flashing warning sign that I posted about, before it has become the fiasco it is now. Do you think Daboll/Schoen were aware of this? That they might have looked at the tape and figured what plays/game plans worked for him in the few home games that he's played well? I doubt it, instead they did likely did what every other bozo associated with this team did from Schmeelk to Dottino to Banks: "herr derr hard worker, first in the building muh OL muh receivers."
Seeing how Schoen was perfectly fine letting Barkley walk away when he had Mara in his office talking about his pending sleep cycle gives you a window into exactly what the owner/GM dynamic is. If Schoen wanted to let Jones walk away after the '22 season, he had all the leverage he needed to let it happen without Mara interfering.
Schoen wanted to keep Jones. Daboll wanted to keep Jones. Mara probably wanting to keep Jones as well was ultimately beside the point.
Seeing how Schoen was perfectly fine letting Barkley walk away when he had Mara in his office talking about his pending sleep cycle gives you a window into exactly what the owner/GM dynamic is. If Schoen wanted to let Jones walk away after the '22 season, he had all the leverage he needed to let it happen without Mara interfering.
Schoen wanted to keep Jones. Daboll wanted to keep Jones. Mara probably wanting to keep Jones as well was ultimately beside the point.
Occam's razor says 80 percent of GMs/coaches in the NFL suck at their jobs and the Giants unfortunately have strung together a few bad ones.
I don't think it's a coincidence that every coach John Mara has hired has been essentially a first time head coach. They're going to be easier to control.
Hopefully the next guy is someone with some experience.
Shurmur was not a first-time head coach; he coached two years in Cleveland in 2011 and 2012 where he didn't win more than five games in either season (a bigger question would be why the Giants wanted him in the first place with that track record).
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I don't doubt Mara has an influence. He needs to be managed. Schoen failed to do it.
I don't think it's a coincidence that every coach John Mara has hired has been essentially a first time head coach. They're going to be easier to control.
Hopefully the next guy is someone with some experience.
Shurmur was not a first-time head coach; he coached two years in Cleveland in 2011 and 2012 where he didn't win more than five games in either season (a bigger question would be why the Giants wanted him in the first place with that track record).
Also hired him after his offense got wrecked by our division rival in the conference championship!
And they're sort of right. Mara probably would not be that explicit. Mara is a spineless, cowardly type of leader. The type that wants influence but shirks accountability. The passive aggressive type that won't actually say what they want but will fire his less favored employees if they don't deliver exactly what he's looking for. We've all worked with people like this and it sucks. It's shitty, cowardly leadership.
We do know that Mara loves Daniel Jones. Loves him. And we know that Mara fires people frequently. We also know he's always hanging around the facility, going to meeting, chiming in with his mumbly comments.
So he's doing something. He has strong opinions. He doesn't give direct instruction. And he's more than willing to fire people if he doesn't get what he wants. It's up to everyone else to fill in the blanks.
The one thing we do know though is that the CEO isn't getting fired.
Jerry, I agree with everything you posted here.
Watching Hard Knocks this was my main takeaway about ownership. Mara and the rest of his clan are not giving direct demands like prime Al Davis, but they are certainly PRESENT and have opinions that Schoen & co. are smart enough to pick up on. McDowell has an official front office position, even.
So, yeah, Mara gave the green light to get a new QB. If it was full bloom love, if it was a sure thing, if if if...so when he's deciding what to do about QB, Schoen is fully aware that there is a social cost to going against ownership's preference. He only gets to go against the grain so many times before his leash gets tighter, and since he already did that with Barkley I'm sure he's not eager to do it again. He wants to keep his job so of course he is going to err on conservative side of these types of decisions and tend to bend towards the owner's preference. Except as we can see, ownership has HORRIBLE football instincts.
To sum it up, ask yourself what qualities you want to see in a successful GM. Ability to scout, negotiate, plan a roster, build a staff - check. But to be a successful GM of the Giants, you ALSO need to have the social & political skills to do all of that while working around a team of Know-Nothings that you can't fire, ignore, or sideline because they are also your bosses. It is too much. I think all of our front office people get bogged down with the latter that they can't properly focus on the shit that matters.
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when people us verbs like "forced", "mandated", or "imposed"...naturally they tend to think "oh Mara would never FORCE them to do something."
And they're sort of right. Mara probably would not be that explicit. Mara is a spineless, cowardly type of leader. The type that wants influence but shirks accountability. The passive aggressive type that won't actually say what they want but will fire his less favored employees if they don't deliver exactly what he's looking for. We've all worked with people like this and it sucks. It's shitty, cowardly leadership.
We do know that Mara loves Daniel Jones. Loves him. And we know that Mara fires people frequently. We also know he's always hanging around the facility, going to meeting, chiming in with his mumbly comments.
So he's doing something. He has strong opinions. He doesn't give direct instruction. And he's more than willing to fire people if he doesn't get what he wants. It's up to everyone else to fill in the blanks.
The one thing we do know though is that the CEO isn't getting fired.
Jerry, I agree with everything you posted here.
Watching Hard Knocks this was my main takeaway about ownership. Mara and the rest of his clan are not giving direct demands like prime Al Davis, but they are certainly PRESENT and have opinions that Schoen & co. are smart enough to pick up on. McDowell has an official front office position, even.
So, yeah, Mara gave the green light to get a new QB. If it was full bloom love, if it was a sure thing, if if if...so when he's deciding what to do about QB, Schoen is fully aware that there is a social cost to going against ownership's preference. He only gets to go against the grain so many times before his leash gets tighter, and since he already did that with Barkley I'm sure he's not eager to do it again. He wants to keep his job so of course he is going to err on conservative side of these types of decisions and tend to bend towards the owner's preference. Except as we can see, ownership has HORRIBLE football instincts.
To sum it up, ask yourself what qualities you want to see in a successful GM. Ability to scout, negotiate, plan a roster, build a staff - check. But to be a successful GM of the Giants, you ALSO need to have the social & political skills to do all of that while working around a team of Know-Nothings that you can't fire, ignore, or sideline because they are also your bosses. It is too much. I think all of our front office people get bogged down with the latter that they can't properly focus on the shit that matters.
Schoen doesn't have the stomach for the job then. You have leverage over your owner at certain points of the process: 1.) when you are first hired and 2.) when you win
Schoen didn't use either of these opportunities when he had them. Schoen/Daboll could've easily pulled a Coughlin with Kerry Collins and iced Jones out when they were hired...wtf was Mara, who was just bullied into firing Judge and hiring outside the org, going to do about it? But no, they took the half-assed route and declined his 5th year option but made him the starter when (from Sy's accounts) Tyrod was just as good or better in camp. Honestly they would've been better off just optioning him.
Schoen had leverage again after winning in 22' - simply by walking away from the negotiating table. Again, wtf was Mara gonna do? Fire the GM who just generated the first good season in six years?
And again Schoen had leverage this past offseason through Jones looking like trash and getting injured. He's made his own grave along with every other front office guy and coach who loves Jones because he looks the part and is a company man.
managing an owner is part of the job with any high profile executive position. if an executive is getting bullied against his better judgement by john wet noodle mara that is the problem far bigger than whatever john mara's opinions are.
Some of us remember George Young. He was a powerful presence figuratively and literally. I think it's going to take a person with that type of gravitas to revive the Giants franchise. I don't see John and Chris Mara ever steeping out of the spotlight and hiring someone who will become the face of the franchise like George Young was.
Parcells was.
you are saying two things here. He doesnt have an influence but then Schoen was unable to manage him? So does that mean Schoen allowed Mara to have influence?
If Mara really wanted to have the influence he had on Gettleman, he would have simply promoted Kevin Abrams.
This is why I always gave Mara credit for hiring a GM outside the walls of 1925 Giants Way. Unfortunately, or fortunately for Mara, he found a non-baptized candidate who also liked Jones.
If Mara really wanted to have the influence he had on Gettleman, he would have simply promoted Kevin Abrams.
This is why I always gave Mara credit for hiring a GM outside the walls of 1925 Giants Way. Unfortunately, or fortunately for Mara, he found a non-baptized candidate who also liked Jones.
they also continue to miss that he had no issue declining the 5yo in 2022.
he could have just tagged him in 2023. he clearly wouldnt have been so torn up to potentially lose barkley since he ultimately did so anyway.
and if he was off the bandwagon the ACL was perfect cover to draft over jones in April.
we saw them take the owners through it on HK, they didnt see another top 10 QB in the draft when they were gaming out their scenarios. not for them or anyone else. they correctly assessed the MIN smoke re JJM wasnt strong enough for them to move up. nix is the only one who has played and he hasnt been very good so that's something they may be right about, but that doesnt matter. sean payton is still winning games even if he was wrong.
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I don't doubt Mara has an influence. He needs to be managed. Schoen failed to do it.
you are saying two things here. He doesnt have an influence but then Schoen was unable to manage him? So does that mean Schoen allowed Mara to have influence?
I said I don't doubt that Mara has an influence. There's is no question he does, and I'd bet anything he hired these guys on the pretense that Daniel would be the quarterback.
This is an organization where the owner is a fool who thinks his actions resulted in Super Bowl rings (see his absurd behavior in Seattle). The owner needs to be managed by the GM and head coach. It is crucial to the job description at this particular football team.
This is an organization where the owner is a fool who thinks his actions resulted in Super Bowl rings (see his absurd behavior in Seattle). The owner needs to be managed by the GM and head coach. It is crucial to the job description at this particular football team.
And on that note, I don't think Belichick truly believes that Saquon should have been re-signed. But he, and everyone else that watched Hard Knocks, knows that Mara wanted to keep Barkley before Schoen finally closed that door. Belichick wants the job, and Schoen's record to date is helping him.
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I don't doubt Mara has an influence. He needs to be managed. Schoen failed to do it.
I don't think it's a coincidence that every coach John Mara has hired has been essentially a first time head coach. They're going to be easier to control.
Hopefully the next guy is someone with some experience.
Shurmur was not a first-time head coach; he coached two years in Cleveland in 2011 and 2012 where he didn't win more than five games in either season (a bigger question would be why the Giants wanted him in the first place with that track record).
Shurmur was hired for the same reason Barkley was drafted - to try to prop up a fading Eli.
If Mara really wanted to have the influence he had on Gettleman, he would have simply promoted Kevin Abrams.
This is why I always gave Mara credit for hiring a GM outside the walls of 1925 Giants Way. Unfortunately, or fortunately for Mara, he found a non-baptized candidate who also liked Jones.
He hired outside but looked for someone who would tell him what he wanted to hear.
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the very real possibility that Schoen actually likes Jones. And he's always been comfortable keeping him at QB1. Which we saw when he gave Jones the second contract and his willingness to keep moving forward with Jones despite his half-assed attempt to move up last April.
If Mara really wanted to have the influence he had on Gettleman, he would have simply promoted Kevin Abrams.
This is why I always gave Mara credit for hiring a GM outside the walls of 1925 Giants Way. Unfortunately, or fortunately for Mara, he found a non-baptized candidate who also liked Jones.
He hired outside but looked for someone who would tell him what he wanted to hear.
I can just imagine John Mara asking "so what do you think of Jones?" with an eager beaver proud father-figure face during the interviews.
But ultimately, a savvy coach or gm knows how to say what they need to say to get in the building then leverage their power afterward. I'm sure Coughlin had to say some nice or clipped things about Kerry Collins to Wellington before he iced him out when he got the job. Jim Fassell announced his commitment to Dave Brown in his opening presser - who was George Young's boy - and then promptly benched him the first legit chance he got. And Fassell was never known as a big tough guy.
In these scenarios, neither Wellington nor George Young could do shit, just as John Mara wouldn't have been able to do shit if Tyrod was named the starter before 2022, or if Schoen walked away from the negotiating table in 2023. Some people would of course criticize Schoen, but he had the leverage then. He failed to utilize it.
Adam Peters
Ryan Poles
Joe Hortiz
Monti Ossenfort
All the above have GM jobs in the NFL.
Blaming Mara feels like a defense mechanism to excuse Schoen in hopes that he actually has a clue what he's doing. In year 3, there is no evidence that Schoen knows what he's doing.
I used to be there too. Blaming Mara for the Jones contract. Not anymore. It was Schoen.
dont forget the mythical "alignment".
what mara needs to do now is find someone who actually knows how to win, and has proven it, not learning on the job. 1 voice who will lead the organization. accorsi and reese didnt report to coughlin, but because accorsi was at the end and reese was at the beginning the successful part of coughlin's run functioned close to that way. which is how he'd functioned in jax when he was basically HC & GM.
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the very real possibility that Schoen actually likes Jones. And he's always been comfortable keeping him at QB1. Which we saw when he gave Jones the second contract and his willingness to keep moving forward with Jones despite his half-assed attempt to move up last April.
If Mara really wanted to have the influence he had on Gettleman, he would have simply promoted Kevin Abrams.
This is why I always gave Mara credit for hiring a GM outside the walls of 1925 Giants Way. Unfortunately, or fortunately for Mara, he found a non-baptized candidate who also liked Jones.
He hired outside but looked for someone who would tell him what he wanted to hear.
I can't refute that. There is a reasonably good chance that that indeed happened.
Some of us remember George Young. He was a powerful presence figuratively and literally. I think it's going to take a person with that type of gravitas to revive the Giants franchise. I don't see John and Chris Mara ever steeping out of the spotlight and hiring someone who will become the face of the franchise like George Young was.
Based on similar experiences in the corporate world, I'm in on Jerry's original post and all the consensus-gathered posts that quoted him. When you speak to your line manager every day or at least hear what they say or listen to what they're being told, it steers your strategy and how you 'manage up' if you have any common sense.
Coughlin alienated quite a few people in Jacksonville as VP of Football Operations, but I can't think of a better way to attempt to re-wire the NYG leadership than place somebody with credibility both inside the organization and within the league in between ownership and football personnel.
Adam Peters
Ryan Poles
Joe Hortiz
Monti Ossenfort
All the above have GM jobs in the NFL.
Blaming Mara feels like a defense mechanism to excuse Schoen in hopes that he actually has a clue what he's doing. In year 3, there is no evidence that Schoen knows what he's doing.
I used to be there too. Blaming Mara for the Jones contract. Not anymore. It was Schoen.
I think it's funny how some fans will point to the 2024 offseason as proof of how the 2023 offseason played out, with little to no consideration about how the 2023 season itself may have changed the dynamic.
Coming off a playoff season in 2022, it's entirely possible that John Mara had a more direct voice internally about keeping the core together. It's also entirely possible that the same plan was already what Schoen favored. We don't know for sure whether Mara influenced the Jones negotiations and contract (and if so, by how much), but I do know that I wouldn't just assume that the 2024 offseason, on camera, set against a backdrop of a fanbase that had started to openly talk about Mara supposedly meddling, resembled the 2023 offseason that took place entirely in private. It wouldn't be the first time that the Giants' PR machine made sure to paint the picture they wanted the fanbase to accept. Anyone need a reminder of the stories that came out about everyone's favorite drivers ed instructor, Dave Gettleman?
I just don't think what we saw on HK is actually sufficient as proof of Mara's involvement (or lack thereof). And I mean that in both directions. It's not proof that it happened nor is it proof that it didn't. It's simply the way things went a year later (and again, it's how things went on camera - did anyone happen to catch a glimpse of John's office on HK? Me neither. There weren't any cameras in there).
This incompetence wasnt a result of immaculate conception.