Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll are viewed as linked up but should they be? I like them both and I am not saying either should go. But if one does, it should be Schoen, not Dabes.
Personnel is on the GM and look at the picks to see what has happened.
2022
1-5: Thibs. I'll give this a passing grade. But it's not an A or even a B. More like a B- or C+. Thibs plays his role and is responsible in the run game but he isn't a huge difference maker in the pass rush. He gets some pressure but lacks consistent finishing ability. Good player. 5th pick overall? Ok.
1-7: Evan Neal. On the one hand, everyone felt he was almost can't miss. On the other hand, everyone is not the Giants GM. So this goes on Schoen as an F to this point. Worse, 2 picks later went Charles Cross, who has been a better player at the same position.
2-43: Wan'Dale. Passing grade but his limitations were predictable. Small catch radius means the QB has a smaller target and small frame limit tackle breaking ability. It's worse because Jones isn't accurate within the target. He often hits the target but not in good places. With Wan'Dale, that's an immediate tackle or incomplete. And Wan'Dale drops the ball too often.
3-67: Ezeudu. A bust to this point. Failed at OG and now out of place at tackle. Making it worse, 5 pick later was when Abraham Lucas went and if you wanted a tackle, that was the way to go.
3-81: Flott. I'll put this in TBD. A young player who needed a lot of runway, he is looking better now and I hope that continues but it's not assured.
4-112: Bellinger. I like him. But he has clearly fallen out of favor and was drafted over by Theo Johnson and they prefer Manhertz as the blocker. And I preferred Jake Ferguson myself and he went 17 picks later. So the team seems to have graded the pick down themselves. Hard to see this as better than a C- and probably a D right now.
4-114: Belton.
5-146: McFadden
5-147: Davidson
Belton has never found the field consistently. McFadden is a good pick. Davidson is a JAG but fine. Hard to be too hard here because it's 4th/5th round but players shortly after Belton were Michael Clemons and Jack Jones and players shortly after McFadden/Davidson were Tariq Woolen and Daron Bland.
6-182: Beavers. Whether injury or just not good enough, Beavers hasn't given us anything. 6th round pick and all so, again, not going to get too upset but an F.
So 2022, the first Schoen draft, gave us some contributors but no difference makers. But also a huge swing and miss in Neal, a miss in Ezeudu and Bellinger and players shortly afterwards at the same positions who are good NFL players.
It's somewhat early to grade 2023 but let's say that Banks is fine as a later 1st round CB but giving some reason for concern on effort. Schmitz is TBD. Some good, some bad but not a clear pass or fail either way. Hyatt is developmental so being generous and grading him as TBD is how I'd look at it. But also factor in we traded up for him.
Eric Gray, Tre Hawkins, Jordon Riley and Ger Owens all have had chances and not done much but could still develop. So mostly TBD with the 5th round and later discount.
And, of course, the handling of the Barkley/Jones negotiations is on Schoen. That has gone south. It could be defended at the time of course. But subsequent events make the decisions look worse.
The question is whether Schoen's personnel job has hurt Daboll so much that Daboll is doing a good job with what he has. I don't think Schoen has earned the right to pick another HC. But I also think Dabes has done a pretty good job at keeping the team playing and getting the most out of the talent.
Dabs is also not special. He's ok, but he is also not a difference maker.
Suspect we're going to be stuck with Schoen awhile longer, knowing how ownership tends to operate with change, half measures, and scapegoats.
New GM New HC and hopefully it’s better than these two clowns
(And I do agree that once in a while he unexpectedly gets his team to play and I have been complimentary of that, but when you score one td at home in four games and you are the offensive guy in year 3–bye and good riddance).
This OP post is absurd
Wow great let’s get Schoen locked up for another 5 years! What other GM can pick a late round RB that flashes a little while also blowing every other major personnel decision.
He deserves to be fired.
Are you just assuming the coaching he has received since being drafted is unrelated to him regressing significantly? If so, I agree with the grade, but help us understand how his development has nothing to to with Daboll and the staff Daboll hired?
Getting players in and developing them is a joint effort between the GM and the coaching staff. If the GM reaches for a guy with flaws, put it on the GM. When the GM picks a guy everyone loves and he fails, coaching likely had something to do with it.
How has he improved the overall talent? The 2 best players by far on this roster are from Gettleman. He’s had 3 top 7 picks and a lot of draft capital.
I don’t think he’s improved the talent level of this roster.
love @ 6m aav
barkley @ 12m aav
mckinney @ 16m aav
(total 34m)
and instead chose to pay:
waller @ 17m aav
campbell @ 4m aav
slayton @ 6m aav
singletary @ 5.5m aav
lock @ 5m aav
(total 37.5m)
what's more remarkable is that the first 3 who are all likely pro bowl bound this year were captains aged 26 or younger when they chose to move on and shift resources towards the bottom bucket who were almost all uniformly older less effective players.
they also chose to not bring back engram, hernandez, and peppers who signed and then later extended for raises at their next destinations, though they never directly coached any of them.
they also let Bredeson go for the same amount they ended up paying GVR and a lot less than they paid Runyan. He is ranked similar to both on PFF and hasnt allowed a sack yet this year.
and that is all apart from the fact that they zip tied themselves to jones, then off a torn ACL didnt hedge better than Drew Lock. they effectively tripled down between the injury, no backup, and shifting the offense to pass first.
the few glimmers of coaching success in SEA/CLE are meaningless if they are equaled out by glimmers of uncut raw ineptitude like the beating from philly and the kicker fiasco vs washington.
when players who leave do better elsewhere,
and players who arrive do worse than elsewhere,
what are the obvious conclusions?
love @ 6m aav
barkley @ 12m aav
mckinney @ 16m aav
(total 34m)
and instead chose to pay:
waller @ 17m aav
campbell @ 4m aav
slayton @ 6m aav
singletary @ 5.5m aav
lock @ 5m aav
(total 37.5m)
what's more remarkable is that the first 3 who are all likely pro bowl bound this year were captains aged 26 or younger when they chose to move on and shift resources towards the bottom bucket who were almost all uniformly older less effective players.
they also chose to not bring back engram, hernandez, and peppers who signed and then later extended for raises at their next destinations, though they never directly coached any of them.
they also let Bredeson go for the same amount they ended up paying GVR and a lot less than they paid Runyan. He is ranked similar to both on PFF and hasnt allowed a sack yet this year.
and that is all apart from the fact that they zip tied themselves to jones, then off a torn ACL didnt hedge better than Drew Lock. they effectively tripled down between the injury, no backup, and shifting the offense to pass first.
the few glimmers of coaching success in SEA/CLE are meaningless if they are equaled out by glimmers of uncut raw ineptitude like the beating from philly and the kicker fiasco vs washington.
this is just devastating when you look at it this way against what they kept vs what they let go. Schoen and Daboll shold be out tomorrow.
Quote:
Putting aside re-signing Jones (which I think Mara had his thumb on the scale for) Schoen has improved the overall talent on the very talentless NYG team he inherited. Daboll should be fired IMHO. He's inconsistent, and the team comes out flat too often. I'd hire Vrabel to take his place.
How has he improved the overall talent? The 2 best players by far on this roster are from Gettleman. He’s had 3 top 7 picks and a lot of draft capital.
I don’t think he’s improved the talent level of this roster.
Wide receiver position is better. The OL is better. The DL is better, and so are the linebackers. RB is deeper overall. There are still some weak spots (CB, TE). Others are about the same (S). Overall, it's a more talented team.
Instead of giving passes based on excuses, tell us why Dabes deserves to remain as the HC. What has he done?
Instead of giving passes based on excuses, tell us why Dabes deserves to remain as the HC. What has he done?
I think he needs to go too. But, to be fair, he was NFL coach of the year his 1st year and led the team to a playoff win.
In that construct (whether you agree with the approach or not), you can't get the 40M AAV, 80M guaranteed investment wrong.
The Giants are not the only team guilty of this, but they fell into the trap of chasing the quarterback market rocket ship.
It appears like they defined success with Jones as "by 2024 his AAV will actually not be so bad compared to other QBs."
Instead of answering yes to "given Jones's ceiling and the talent we can reasonably afford at other positions, can we get to a championship with Jones taking that much of the pie?"
Quote:
In comment 16657359 NBGblue said:
Quote:
Putting aside re-signing Jones (which I think Mara had his thumb on the scale for) Schoen has improved the overall talent on the very talentless NYG team he inherited. Daboll should be fired IMHO. He's inconsistent, and the team comes out flat too often. I'd hire Vrabel to take his place.
How has he improved the overall talent? The 2 best players by far on this roster are from Gettleman. He’s had 3 top 7 picks and a lot of draft capital.
I don’t think he’s improved the talent level of this roster.
Wide receiver position is better. The OL is better. The DL is better, and so are the linebackers. RB is deeper overall. There are still some weak spots (CB, TE). Others are about the same (S). Overall, it's a more talented team.
He's made 1 move in 3 years to improve the OLine and the rest of have been terrible.
How is the safety position the same? He let 2 pro bowlers walk for nothing.
He drafted a good WR 6th overall and trade for Burns which the jury is still out on given his cost.
Outside of that I would argue he has made this team worse in 3 years. Do you really think they are in a better position now then when he took over? And if Jones is injured and carries a 50 million cap hit next season- forget it.
The trade for Waller came with risk, but it was a late 3rd and it didn't work. That sucks, I freely admit, but the Burns trade was legitimately a good one. It's a move Philadelphia makes and many on here would have applauded.
The scarier prospect is if Schoen actually believed Jones was the answer, and felt he was being proactive and succeeded by getting four years locked down.
There are investments in life where a good deal isn't the goal. If Jones played great on the franchise tender in 2023, the downside was simply paying a good quarterback a lot of money.
That's so infinitely better than paying a bad quarterback 20% less.
The trade for Waller came with risk, but it was a late 3rd and it didn't work. That sucks, I freely admit, but the Burns trade was legitimately a good one. It's a move Philadelphia makes and many on here would have applauded.
He's been good but they also made him a top 5 highest D lineman and gave up the 39th overall pick.
Not sure a team like the Giants should be making that move.
love @ 6m aav
barkley @ 12m aav
mckinney @ 16m aav
(total 34m)
and instead chose to pay:
waller @ 17m aav
campbell @ 4m aav
slayton @ 6m aav
singletary @ 5.5m aav
lock @ 5m aav
(total 37.5m)
what's more remarkable is that the first 3 who are all likely pro bowl bound this year were captains aged 26 or younger when they chose to move on and shift resources towards the bottom bucket who were almost all uniformly older less effective players.
they also chose to not bring back engram, hernandez, and peppers who signed and then later extended for raises at their next destinations, though they never directly coached any of them.
they also let Bredeson go for the same amount they ended up paying GVR and a lot less than they paid Runyan. He is ranked similar to both on PFF and hasnt allowed a sack yet this year.
and that is all apart from the fact that they zip tied themselves to jones, then off a torn ACL didnt hedge better than Drew Lock. they effectively tripled down between the injury, no backup, and shifting the offense to pass first.
the few glimmers of coaching success in SEA/CLE are meaningless if they are equaled out by glimmers of uncut raw ineptitude like the beating from philly and the kicker fiasco vs washington.
This is a banger of a post
Schoen should be evaluated separate from Daboll and fired.
I've long held the belief that draft, FA, scouting is a group endeavor. Schoen oversees it all, and makes the final call, but a lot of people have a say. Daboll may not have always gotten his way, but I'll bet his fingerprints are on some of the moves.
I don't think Schoen and Daboll are linked, but both are up for a serious review of performance. They both may get the boot, but it's not a case of 'if one goes, the other does, too'.
I think GM is typically given longer leash than HC. It takes longer to evaluate his capability. I lean toward Daboll gets the boot (especially if his voice carried the day on a lot of the misses), while Schoen stays. The only way Schoen goes is if he's failing in areas that us fans are not privy to. He's made good moves, and he's made mistakes. The view from here says he hasn't been bad enough to jettison. But, I don't have a seat that shows all the inner workings, and I don't know whether there's a great candidate available for the job. Daboll needs to go.