Sy on NYG front office

Schoen has been a disaster. Worse than Gettleman

In comment 16658133 HardTruth said:

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In comment 16658122 Blue Baas said: Quote: Schoen rebuilt the scouting department removing a lot of names that were past their expiration date the last few years and grew the analytics group and I think we're seeing the fruits of that labor pay off. They also did well with the OL for the first time in what feels like forever. Last, removing Wink, the Wilkins brothers, and Bobby Johnson all look like great moves, which would give me confidence in further moves if Daboll gets the axe, but if they give him a new QB I can get on board. Didnt Schoen bring in those coaches?

We'll never know for sure the input the coaches had in assembling the staff - but looks like they did a good job of correcting course.

From the outside it really looks like the Wilkins brothers followed Martindale (one even is at Michigan now too) and Johnson followed Daboll. From what I can tell Charlie Bullen has no connection to Bowen (he did know Schoen though) and Bricillo has no connection to Daboll.

That's just the conclusion I drew, but can understand blame and skepticism after the first round of hires.

Whatever happens happens... I remember when I could really care one way or another... This just sucks.

It's hard to defend any of the Giants Big 3 (Schoen, Daboll, Jones) but if you figure the success of any team largely relies on getting the combo of GM/HC/QB right, then to me the question is:

A) do we throw out all 3 and start over, hoping we get the right combination this time?

or

B) do we first try to change out the part(s) that are obviously not working (Jones for sure) and see if that fundamentally changes the dynamic/outcome?

I am inclined to go with B. Let's see what Schoen (and maybe Daboll??) can do with a QB more aligned with the system they want to run (and yes, I understand they resigned Jones but people should at least try to factor in the dynamics that were going on at the time).

all that said, I won't lose a moments sleep if all 3 are fired and we start anew... It's like playing Yahtzee and re-rolling all 5 dice on the chance you hit your number. That's what the Giants seem to do every few years.

of complete indifference that the Giants have gifted to me over the last decade, but I really don't have a strong view on Schoen.

I have seen enough good in what he's done outside of the QB situation to think it's possible that he gets this right.

The glaring mistake was re-signing Jones to term. And that's a big one. At this point it suffices to say that 2022 was absolutely a curse and not a gift. Given the performance by Jones during that season and run into the playoffs, I can see how the evaluation during that offseason vis-a-vis the QB situation was a difficult one. In the end, it's pretty clear they got it wrong, and even if they were right to have a shred of paranoia about letting Jones walk, it was foolish not to use the Franchise Tag instead of giving him a longer deal.

That is a major, major mistake no doubt. But, given all of the noise and situation there, it doesn't kill my belief that he's a competent guy to select a new quarterback now that we're in a 100% crytal clear place of knowing that we need a new one. And I'd be very interested to see what Daboll could do with better raw materials there.

This is not to say that Schoen and or Daboll "deserve" this or that.

If there is a clear GM and/or Coach in the crosshairs that is surely available and clearly an upgrade, I don't have any objection to making the change. But I'm not eager to run these guys out of town and rushing into a Belichick regime that includes significant personnel control. That doesn't feel like an upgrade to me, and I think that puts us right back in a place of rushing timelines to compete, and I feel like we've been there / don that / got the tee shirt.

I think it's pretty feasible to argue this in either direction.

I don’t disagree at all with them choosing Jones and the lack of imagination bringing in competition this season is beyond frustrating.

I’m also not convinced Jones gives them a better chance to win than DeVito, who you can argue has room to improve - can be developed into a good backup - best case scenario maybe even a trade piece. I see a lot of logic in playing him, i see virtually none in continuing to start Jones.

In comment 16658173 GiantGrit said:

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I don’t disagree at all with them choosing Jones and the lack of imagination bringing in competition this season is beyond frustrating. I’m also not convinced Jones gives them a better chance to win than DeVito, who you can argue has room to improve - can be developed into a good backup - best case scenario maybe even a trade piece. I see a lot of logic in playing him, i see virtually none in continuing to start Jones.

This is the more important thing to me than whether Schoen or Daboll is fired.

Not to quibble with your word choice, but there is actually NEGATIVE logic in starting Jones.

This season is going nowhere, and continuing to trot him out there with the potential to light $23M of a finite resource on fire is malfeasance.

I'm indifferent enough about Schoen and Daboll to say that the Jones injury clause kind of makes me prefer that Mara tell JS/BD right now that their jobs for next year are safe and that they don't need to take senseless risks to try and prove something in 10 meaningless games.

Once they know they will have a fresh bite at the apple in the QB market, the losses become a feature and not a bug.

In comment 16657857 Sam Huff said:

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why is it that we don't have Russell Wilson or Marcus Mariota or McCarthy or Penix or Nix as as current starting QB?

The Giants spoke with Russell Wilson - presumably he wanted to go to a team where he would be the starter. With the way he played in Denver there's no way the Giants could guarantee that.

Marcus Mariota looked terrible playing as the backup for the Eagles the previous year. It's the reason why they let him go - Drew Lock was the better option as a backup.

JJ McCarthy would have been a reach if he were drafted at #6 by the Giants - no draft board had him rated that high. Nabers was the correct, and least risky choice.

Same thing applies to Penix. It's amazing to me that the people who most desperately want to see Daniel Jones gone by any means necessary are clamoring for the Giants to essentially try and repeat the exact same mistake . . . by drafting another QB with a #6 pick just to draft a QB.

They were never going to realistically be competitive this year. The focus is and should be this year on building up the roster so that when we're finally in position to get the right QB (next year) they're already in a position to succeed right away. That requires being patient with the GM and HC.

That the best way to get a top QB is to to keep playing Jones this season

I remember on Hard Knocks when JS said to the room, " we're rolling with Daniel" the air was sucked right out of that room maybe JS is just giving Mara what he wants to finally get Mara to understand that Jones is not the guy?

In comment 16658148 KingBlue said:

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Whatever happens happens... I remember when I could really care one way or another... This just sucks.

I'm lost.
If they replace Schoen, then think of the hiring process. Mara is going to have his mistaken beliefs about the team which will influence who he appoints. He hired Gettleman because Gettleman went along with Mara's notion that we were close to competing for a Superbowl and didn't need a tear down. He hired Schoen because Schoen went along with Mara's belief in Jones.
The signs are not encouraging if Mara is in charge of hiring another GM.

In comment 16658197 eclipz928 said:

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In comment 16657857 Sam Huff said: Quote: why is it that we don't have Russell Wilson or Marcus Mariota or McCarthy or Penix or Nix as as current starting QB? The Giants spoke with Russell Wilson - presumably he wanted to go to a team where he would be the starter. With the way he played in Denver there's no way the Giants could guarantee that. Marcus Mariota looked terrible playing as the backup for the Eagles the previous year. It's the reason why they let him go - Drew Lock was the better option as a backup. JJ McCarthy would have been a reach if he were drafted at #6 by the Giants - no draft board had him rated that high. Nabers was the correct, and least risky choice. Same thing applies to Penix. It's amazing to me that the people who most desperately want to see Daniel Jones gone by any means necessary are clamoring for the Giants to essentially try and repeat the exact same mistake . . . by drafting another QB with a #6 pick just to draft a QB. They were never going to realistically be competitive this year. The focus is and should be this year on building up the roster so that when we're finally in position to get the right QB (next year) they're already in a position to succeed right away. That requires being patient with the GM and HC.

While drafting jones was a mistake, the bigger mistake is him still being on the team in year 6.

So unless they were going to give an underperforming Nix/Penix/JJM a 6 year scholarship, no it wouldn't have been the same mistake

In comment 16657864 dd in Mass said:

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Schoen was told to build the team around DJ. I think he has done that. The last draft with his scouts was the best in 10 years. He's not going anywhere. If DJ was an above average QB the team would still be in the hunt. Daboll looks to be the scapegoat especially if they continue to spiral downward. He really needs 6-7 wins to save his job.

Pay attention. Asshats be speaking.

In comment 16658148 KingBlue said:

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Whatever happens happens... I remember when I could really care one way or another... This just sucks.

This is the point I am getting to as well. I don't think Schoen or Daboll has earned the right to continue in their roles, but with John Mara and Tim McDonnell making the decisions on who would replace them, are we expecting anyone better?

This is just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

some mistakes, but his last draft looks to be exceptional and many players from his previous drafts are contributing and are improving, like Flott.

I'm hoping that some of the early mistakes were either growing pains of a young GM and/or him getting more of his own people involved in the scouting process.

So my vote would be to give him another year.

There are so many moves that Schoen has made that have left me scratching my head. He throws draft picks away like they’re Halloween candy. He blew a 3rd rounder on Waller. He traded a 4th & a 7th to move up 1 spot to take Banks, when the next CB wasn’t taken until the 7th round. He traded a 4th to move up to take Hyatt, who can’t get on the field.

He’s butchered all of his OL draft picks, forcing him to spend in FA to fill those holes. His FA record is spotty as well. He openly talked about moving up in the draft to take a QB due largely to Jones’s injury history, yet goes into the season with Drew Lock as his backup.

3 years in and we’re looking at yet another 5 or 6 win season. Sure, we can blame some of that on coaching, but what players are stepping up? 3 years in, and the 2 best players are STILL Gettleman picks. I just don’t see evidence that Dchoen knows what he’s doing.

are just beyond comprehension. This is a man who has blown premium picks and has done an awful job not only in retaining our talent, but picking up other talent around the league. The best pickups have been Okreke and maybe Burns (but we paid a lot to get Burns so the book is still out on it). He has blown two high picks on busts OL, his first two drafts have been awful, and we look worse than we did before he got here. People should not forget the last month of Joe Judge was downright awful and Joe Judge was a miserable coach, but the QBs he was starting was like Jake Fromm and Mike McMahon or whoever that month. The front office is part of the problem.


The people who try to make Schoen and Daboll like Cain and Abel, meaning there is one good and one bad guy here lose every ounce of credibility with me.

In comment 16657854 christian said:

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I don't think anyone can say with a straight face the roster is architected in such a way they are close to competing for a championship. The Giants don't have an offense. That's sort of a big deal.

be more specific. What are they missing on offense?

In comment 16658304 Section331 said:

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There are so many moves that Schoen has made that have left me scratching my head. He throws draft picks away like they’re Halloween candy. He blew a 3rd rounder on Waller. He traded a 4th & a 7th to move up 1 spot to take Banks, when the next CB wasn’t taken until the 7th round. He traded a 4th to move up to take Hyatt, who can’t get on the field. He’s butchered all of his OL draft picks, forcing him to spend in FA to fill those holes. His FA record is spotty as well. He openly talked about moving up in the draft to take a QB due largely to Jones’s injury history, yet goes into the season with Drew Lock as his backup. 3 years in and we’re looking at yet another 5 or 6 win season. Sure, we can blame some of that on coaching, but what players are stepping up? 3 years in, and the 2 best players are STILL Gettleman picks. I just don’t see evidence that Dchoen knows what he’s doing.

+1

In comment 16658337 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 16657854 christian said: Quote: I don't think anyone can say with a straight face the roster is architected in such a way they are close to competing for a championship. The Giants don't have an offense. That's sort of a big deal. be more specific. What are they missing on offense?

I don't know a QB, a good RB (maybe Tracy becomes one jury still out), WR2-4 WR, a TE, a RG and probably a LG, a C. Just stuff like that.

In comment 16658349 Essex said:

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In comment 16658337 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 16657854 christian said: Quote: I don't think anyone can say with a straight face the roster is architected in such a way they are close to competing for a championship. The Giants don't have an offense. That's sort of a big deal. be more specific. What are they missing on offense? I don't know a QB, a good RB (maybe Tracy becomes one jury still out), WR2-4 WR, a TE, a RG and probably a LG, a C. Just stuff like that.

You make a choice to be overdramatic if you want to. Not sure how that makes you feel any better about things.

The WRs are good enough, especially with Nabers. They were good enough last year too. The idiot pretending to play QB makes everyone look worse from missing throws on timing to walking into sacks.

One game suddenly means they need 3 offensive line positions? You felt this way before sunday too?

In comment 16658304 Section331 said:

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There are so many moves that Schoen has made that have left me scratching my head. He throws draft picks away like they’re Halloween candy. He blew a 3rd rounder on Waller. He traded a 4th & a 7th to move up 1 spot to take Banks, when the next CB wasn’t taken until the 7th round. He traded a 4th to move up to take Hyatt, who can’t get on the field. He’s butchered all of his OL draft picks, forcing him to spend in FA to fill those holes. His FA record is spotty as well. He openly talked about moving up in the draft to take a QB due largely to Jones’s injury history, yet goes into the season with Drew Lock as his backup. 3 years in and we’re looking at yet another 5 or 6 win season. Sure, we can blame some of that on coaching, but what players are stepping up? 3 years in, and the 2 best players are STILL Gettleman picks. I just don’t see evidence that Dchoen knows what he’s doing.

7th round should read 2nd round, thanks auto-correct!

In comment 16658359 Section331 said:

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He traded a 4th & a 7th to move up 1 spot to take Banks, when the next CB wasn’t taken until the 7th round.

You trade up for a player because you think someone's going to take him before you.

The next Corner went 7 picks later. Not sure what this is about.

but now we’re in the territory of he’s not allowed to make a mistake with one of the toughest positions to get right, and going with the groupthink to bring DJ back. It would be disingenuous to fire him over that.

If you like the direction of the team other than DJ, that’s arguably enough to let him try again with another QB.

If you don’t like the direction other than QB, bh all means get rid of him. But there are signs the roster around DJ is headed in the right direction, and coaching and/or QB play is holding them back.

The lack of using the run game effectively (coaching) combined with bad QB play.

Some ppl still will not face it.

Schoen/Daboll inherited Jones and when it was contract time, there were no real good viable alternatives in free agency unless you're a Carr fan, and I would rather be terrible than have Carr and 7-10 to 9-8 mediocrity.

They didn't have a premium draft pick bc Daboll won coach of the year and they won all those close games and a playoff game.

And after an 11-year playoff win drought, there's no way anyone convince me that there was an acceptable alternative to sell to Mara other than bringing Jones back, particularly after Mara's public comments regarding Jones.

The so-called awful contract Schoen gave Jones allows this team to move on after this season. It was as good a contract you could've asked for if you weren't a Jones fan, and anyone who remembers my posts from back then knows I have never been a believer and didn't want him back. But I knew they were going to do it, because Mara wasn't going to go for a Jacoby Brissett bridge year QB type of thing that I would've preferred.

This team has showed a lot of progress under this regime. Particularly on defense.

The offense is ugly and it will remain so until there is a QB replacement, and losing Thomas is making it worse.

This team's biggest crimes have been they have won too many games the last two years. Those wins with DeVito took them out of a chance for the top 3. And honestly, they don't get that many wins in either year with most coaches.

Excited to see Daboll get to work with a good QB.

In comment 16658365 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 16658359 Section331 said: Quote: He traded a 4th & a 7th to move up 1 spot to take Banks, when the next CB wasn’t taken until the 7th round. You trade up for a player because you think someone's going to take him before you. The next Corner went 7 picks later. Not sure what this is about.

Autocorrect changed my 2nd rd to 7th rd, but trading 2 picks to move up one spot is a horrible use of resources, especially given that no team picking after them in rd 1 took a CB. Part of running a draft is having an idea of who the teams around you may be interested in. Not an exact science to be sure, but the results show an error in judgement.

Was Banks really worth that investment when you were guaranteed to be able to get him or Joey Porter? I don’t think so.

In comment 16658358 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 16658349 Essex said: Quote: In comment 16658337 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 16657854 christian said: Quote: I don't think anyone can say with a straight face the roster is architected in such a way they are close to competing for a championship. The Giants don't have an offense. That's sort of a big deal. be more specific. What are they missing on offense? I don't know a QB, a good RB (maybe Tracy becomes one jury still out), WR2-4 WR, a TE, a RG and probably a LG, a C. Just stuff like that. You make a choice to be overdramatic if you want to. Not sure how that makes you feel any better about things. The WRs are good enough, especially with Nabers. They were good enough last year too. The idiot pretending to play QB makes everyone look worse from missing throws on timing to walking into sacks. One game suddenly means they need 3 offensive line positions? You felt this way before sunday too?

The offense needs a lot, most importantly the hardest position in sports to find.

Next year they'll probably need a WR2, RB1, 2-3 offensive lineman and obviously a new QB room.

That is a lot.

In comment 16658393 Section331 said:

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In comment 16658365 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 16658359 Section331 said: Quote: He traded a 4th & a 7th to move up 1 spot to take Banks, when the next CB wasn’t taken until the 7th round. You trade up for a player because you think someone's going to take him before you. The next Corner went 7 picks later. Not sure what this is about. Autocorrect changed my 2nd rd to 7th rd, but trading 2 picks to move up one spot is a horrible use of resources, especially given that no team picking after them in rd 1 took a CB. Part of running a draft is having an idea of who the teams around you may be interested in. Not an exact science to be sure, but the results show an error in judgement. Was Banks really worth that investment when you were guaranteed to be able to get him or Joey Porter? I don’t think so.

Did you consider that maybe Banks was largely regarded as the only first round corner, and once the Giants moved up to take him, other teams who were interested simply picked someone at a different position?

The conclusion you seem to be reaching that nobody else wanted a corner doesn't make sense unless you just think Banks was overdrafted.

Even though they cleaned house in the scouting department after Gettleman, there have still been too many draft misses, particularly on premium picks. GMs rely on the scouting. If the scouting sucks. The picks will suck.

The old Bill Walsh 20% Failure Factor rule from Finding the Winning Edge

If a personnel department is doing an outstanding job of evaluating and acquiring talent through the draft and free agency, its failure rate (i.e., the number of players who don't "pan out" for whatever reason) can be expected to be around twenty percent. In other words, regardless of how capable and efficient your scouts and coaches are in identifying, researching and projecting the potential value of a particular player, a fall out of approximately twenty percent will occur.

Over the years, every team in the NFL has experienced some degree of disappointment in its acquisitions. Top draft choices have turned out to be "busts," and expensive free agent signings have not lived up to their expectations.

The point to be emphasized is that no matter how much time and effort a team puts into the acquisitions process (i.e., no matter how thoroughly a team "studies" a given athlete), some miscalculations will happen. The process simply involves too many variables to be able to accurately account for every factor.

On the other hand, if the percentage of a team's acquisitions failures climbs to over twenty percent, then shortcomings exist in the team's system of evaluating and acquiring players. If disappointment after disappointment occurs, they can't all be related to "bad luck."

All factors considered, a failure rate of approximately twenty percent in this regard is about all a franchise can absorb and continue to be competitive. Capable, experienced management will have a firm grasp of this reality.

The Giants have had this problem since the last years of Reece. Schoen's failure rate is higher than 20%, yet still better than DG's.

And despite his self-inflicted wounds, you could easily argue Schoen's had ZERO good luck. A friend of mine once told me: Not everything can suck ALL the time. Eventually the law of averages works in your favor, and things improve. I've found that to be generally true, but the Giants are WELL overdue for some better luck. It doesn't seem to be on the horizon.

The 2024 draft looks better than the first two, so maybe the drafting is improving.

Quick snapshot of Schoen's picks at this point in time:

2024
Nabers - star in the making.
Nubin - starting, should only get better.
Phillips - starting, should only get better.
Johnson - green, but playing as a rookie. Huge upside.
Tracey - looks like a possible steal thus far.
Muasau - playing, ST and role player.

2023
Banks - average starter. Needs to be more.
Schmitz - below to average starter. Should improve some. Ceiling is quality starer.
Hyatt - A trade up. One trick pony JAG so far. Needs to be more.
Gray - below to average RB. Misused as a returner. Fumble and error-prone. Don't see upside. JAG.
Hawkins - low quality backup.
Riley - Below average backup (or he'd be starting).
Owens - practice squad.

2022
Thibodeaux - Good player, but not a difference maker by himself.
Neal - A consensus blue chip OT prospect. Bust so far. Too much talent and work ethic to give up yet.
If these two picks had been home runs, the team might look significantly better than it does. KT is only a double, and Neal is a foul ball. College OLs are taking longer to develop than they used to. There still some hope for Neal, but the Giants haven't gotten lucky anywhere.

Robinson - Too many dropped passes. JAG. Needs to be more.
Ezeudu - Currently having his career ruined by the Giants. Might have been a decent starting OG. Will never be, now.
Flott - Starting to become an average starter.
Bellinger - Role player. Kind of invisible since his injury.
Belton - ST and depth player.
McFadden - Average starter. Schoen's only mid round pick who's starting.
Davidson - Below average backup (or he'd be starting).
McKethan - off the team
Beavers - off the team.

Thus far, from three drafts, Schoen's only gotten only one, blue chip, impact, difference-maker (Nabers) out of seven premium picks. And only one mid rounder (McFadded) has turned into an average NFL starter. That's not a good batting average. And Schoen took the job saddled with a roster of Gettleman's work that was even worse. You could argue that DG's only good pick was Slayton -- a mid round WR4, who's been forced to play above his talent.

Aside from the draft:

Schoen's handling of the Barkley/Jones contracts was a calculated gamble that he lost, but I understood the reasoning at the time. The mistake, as everyone knows, is that Schoen should have traded Barkley a year before he left.

I still believe having Burns is better than having Barkley and McKinney. Not only is Burns a more impactful player, his presence helps Thibodeaux have more impact.

Schoen's FA acquisitions got better when he had more money to spend (duh).

Eluemunor, Runyan, Van Roten, Singletary are at least average NFL starters. All prior FA OLs were garbage, below average backups. Everyone else Schoen brought in is a JAG.

The Toney for Waller trade was worth a shot, but it didn't work out. No luck there.

The Giants haven't had a much luck in any of the personnel areas. The Jones/Barkley thing. The Toney/Waller thing. Neither worked out. No one Schoen has drafted looks like a true steal yet (maybe someone from the 2024 class will).

I actually don't think the Giants need to replace Schoen or probably even Daboll. Both guys are FIRST TIME GM and head coach. There is a learning curve. And the rebuild is unfortunately still a painful, work in-progress.

Daboll infuriates the fuck out of me. For example, I'll never understand Ezudu at OLT, but the guy who won COTY his first season didn't suddenly forget how to coach after that. He remains largely hamstrung by his QB and personnel. Not sure he'd suck on the Chiefs or the Bengals.

Yes, QB1 play is a major problem, and the team won't overcome that (or be competitive) until it changes. But until they upgrade QB1, they still have to add quality pieces (like Nabers and Burns) when and wherever they can. They're trying to building a core of quality starters. But it's painfully SLOW, and there have been too many misses.

To me, Walsh's rule lays the blame more at the feet of the scouting and pro-personal departments. These problems (like not being able to draft starting OLs) has now spanned 3 GMs and their respective staffs. Sure, the buck stops at the GM. He's the one who'll get fired, but a GM's only as good as the data he's given.

Schoen and Daboll are still in their learning curve -- and that shows. I don't know whether it's time to change horses and start over yet. And assuming Mara would even consider giving Belichick the GM/HC combo-job, BB's 72 years old, and he looked very ordinary in NE without Brady. What he would bring is way more experience.

In comment 16658420 Mike from Ohio said:

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In comment 16658393 Section331 said: Quote: In comment 16658365 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: In comment 16658359 Section331 said: Quote: He traded a 4th & a 7th to move up 1 spot to take Banks, when the next CB wasn’t taken until the 7th round. You trade up for a player because you think someone's going to take him before you. The next Corner went 7 picks later. Not sure what this is about. Autocorrect changed my 2nd rd to 7th rd, but trading 2 picks to move up one spot is a horrible use of resources, especially given that no team picking after them in rd 1 took a CB. Part of running a draft is having an idea of who the teams around you may be interested in. Not an exact science to be sure, but the results show an error in judgement. Was Banks really worth that investment when you were guaranteed to be able to get him or Joey Porter? I don’t think so. Did you consider that maybe Banks was largely regarded as the only first round corner, and once the Giants moved up to take him, other teams who were interested simply picked someone at a different position? The conclusion you seem to be reaching that nobody else wanted a corner doesn't make sense unless you just think Banks was overdrafted.

Banks has a QBR against of over 130, 31st out of 32 CB’s who have 18 or more passes attempted against them. Joey Porter Jr was rated pretty evenly with Banks going into the draft as late first-early 2nd rd picks. Right now, Porter is clearly the better player.

Unless you think he’s a gold jacket guy, fixating on one player is what SB contending teams can afford to do, bad teams should not throw away draft picks for marginal differences in upside.

Okereke was a good FA get. Add him to the plus side of the ledger.

we are a more talented team than we were under DG (I know, that sets the bar low) and it appears that we're drafting players to fit the scheme, which is not what the prior regime did.

I'm also willing to give Schoen a pass on signing Jones because I still think there was internal pressure on him to do so. The contract structure, with the 2-year out suggests it was a compromise between Schoen and Mara's beliefs.

Where Schoen and company miscalculated was bringing in a viable backup option this season. The only thing I can think of is that the pro-personnel people felt that Lock was a bargain and they had to save some cash after Runyan asked for more than they planned.

What I'm getting at is, my preference is to not do another regime change, because I don't think they're as bad as their record suggests. I think Jones is dragging the entire team and franchise down. That being said, if they made change, it is what it is. This franchise has been a joke for long enough that these changes are white noise.

In comment 16658453 David B. said:

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Okereke was a good FA get. Add him to the plus side of the ledger.

He’s been invisible this year. Plays every snap and has barely made a play.

In comment 16657797 Go Terps said:

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This front office paid the quarterback, drafted no quarterbacks, signed Lock to be the backup, then had Lock make public statements confirming that he was the backup. I can't reconcile it.

I wholeheartedly agree. Just because Sy says it doesn’t make it so. I will never understand JS’s handling of DJ and SB….never!

I think the coach and GM should get a shot at their own QB.

I hate the product right now. But I have more faith in these two since TC left the building.

In comment 16657826 Archer said:

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Discarding the GM after three years has not worked in the past. Every time you fire a GM you are going back a step. The new GM will want to create the team in his image. This means overhauling the roster and starting over. This is insanity. If you think you are frustrated now, it can and will get a lot worse than it is now . Let Schoen continue to build the roster and bring in a new QB. The Giants have turned over the roster. They have the youngest starting players. There are (5) starters and a total of (8) rookies or first-year players on the active roster. The defense is a couple of players away from becoming dominant. The offense needs a QB, WR, and OL. Let's see how this team performs with a quality QB.

Don’t forget TE

Would be a push if not monkey victory VS JS picks….both Neal and Thomas have had physical issues with their feet/ankles, and Neal has turned out to be a total bust…..

In comment 16657828 gary_from_chester said:

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Last year with his mishandling of the coaching staff - his hires, his process. Unforgivable…we talk about a head coach losing the players; this one lost his staff. Lots of poor game plans, poor decisions….Daboll can go. Give me Vrabel over him any day. Schoen has done both good and bad in my view. I’d give him more time to build the roster and get the QB. If he’s gone too I won’t lose sleep over it, but think it’s a step back short term to reset the GM position. A coach and a QB and we have a pretty good team.

Really? How long did it take the Lions?!!

In comment 16658489 Mayo2JZ said:

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In comment 16657828 gary_from_chester said: Quote: Last year with his mishandling of the coaching staff - his hires, his process. Unforgivable…we talk about a head coach losing the players; this one lost his staff. Lots of poor game plans, poor decisions….Daboll can go. Give me Vrabel over him any day. Schoen has done both good and bad in my view. I’d give him more time to build the roster and get the QB. If he’s gone too I won’t lose sleep over it, but think it’s a step back short term to reset the GM position. A coach and a QB and we have a pretty good team. Really? How long did it take the Lions?!!

3 years until the Lions reached the playoffs, so 2 more than the Giants.
The Giants were pleasantly/surprisingly a winning team in '22 and were still dealing with cap issues.
No excuses, Schoen make the decisions he did but to have to overcome a horrific cap situation after a winning first season has impacted the rebuild.
Year 4 is ultra important to the franchise, but most importantly Schoen.

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You could tell the Lions were on the right path in year two, with a number of successful draft picks and moves. It was a huge jump from years 1 to 2 before vaulting to contender status.

The Giants have gone backwards.

Pound-for-pound the team he inherited is just as good as the team today.

My favorite Radiohead lyrics apply each year: I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

In comment 16658566 christian said:

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Pound-for-pound the team he inherited is just as good as the team today. My favorite Radiohead lyrics apply each year: I'm not living, I'm just killing time.

This is where I end up. Where are the data points suggesting we're on the right path?

Outside of Nabers, do we have a single acquisition on offense that we should really like? I don't think so. It's a pathetic showing three years into the regime. And if you want to argue it's hard to analyze them given the QB situation... well, who made the choices at that position?

I think they've both got to go.

The Giants don't have an offense, they have a receiver.

In comment 16658569 christian said:

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The Giants don't have an offense, they have a receiver.

If you are using offense to mean a QB, I agree.

But I think there are some good parts in place. The OL was functioning much better, the RBBC was looking bullish, the receivers looks more promising than ever, and Dabka know offense.

And then there is Jones...

In comment 16658451 Section331 said:

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Unless you think he’s a gold jacket guy, fixating on one player is what SB contending teams can afford to do, bad teams should not throw away draft picks for marginal differences in upside.

We can't cherry pick on a case by case basis how you want your GM to work. Either you want them to trust their evaluations and get the players they believe are the best fit, or you want them to take a less aggressive approach and take what the draft plays out ahead of you.

Gettlemen and Reese rarely/never moved around in the draft for players, Schoen has no issue with it. It's just picking between vanilla and chocolate. There is no 'correct' answer. If you don't like his scouting it doesn't matter if he hoarded all his picks anyway, does it? They won't be good anyway.


The reality for Banks is the same as for the WRs and everyone else on this roster: whether it's a dropped pass or a missed tackle, or a bad coverage, the *offense* cannot recover from a one-score deficit, so anyone that fucks up is the cause of that week's loss. 3-4 solid weeks for Banks doesn't matter because he had one awful play, now he's a bad pick.


This is how people lose perspective.

In comment 16658601 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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In comment 16658451 Section331 said: Quote: Unless you think he’s a gold jacket guy, fixating on one player is what SB contending teams can afford to do, bad teams should not throw away draft picks for marginal differences in upside. We can't cherry pick on a case by case basis how you want your GM to work. Either you want them to trust their evaluations and get the players they believe are the best fit, or you want them to take a less aggressive approach and take what the draft plays out ahead of you. Gettlemen and Reese rarely/never moved around in the draft for players, Schoen has no issue with it. It's just picking between vanilla and chocolate. There is no 'correct' answer. If you don't like his scouting it doesn't matter if he hoarded all his picks anyway, does it? They won't be good anyway. The reality for Banks is the same as for the WRs and everyone else on this roster: whether it's a dropped pass or a missed tackle, or a bad coverage, the *offense* cannot recover from a one-score deficit, so anyone that fucks up is the cause of that week's loss. 3-4 solid weeks for Banks doesn't matter because he had one awful play, now he's a bad pick. This is how people lose perspective.

I don't disagree about cherry picking, but my point is more about process than player. Banks was a fine pick, my issue is throwing picks away for someone who may be marginally better than some other guys still on the board. Bad teams shouldn't do that.

To disagree with SY on this one basically for having no plan for the QB room that is perhaps the worsr in the NFL there is no excuse for it.

In comment 16658590 bw in dc said:

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In comment 16658569 christian said: Quote: The Giants don't have an offense, they have a receiver. If you are using offense to mean a QB, I agree. But I think there are some good parts in place. The OL was functioning much better, the RBBC was looking bullish, the receivers looks more promising than ever, and Dabka know offense. And then there is Jones...

Shades of 98/99 with Kanell/Graham and Ike, Toomer, and Tiki.

In comment 16658610 Section331 said:

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I don't disagree about cherry picking, but my point is more about process than player. Banks was a fine pick, my issue is throwing picks away for someone who may be marginally better than some other guys still on the board. Bad teams shouldn't do that.

And this brings me to one of my biggest gripes with the Giants org, and it predates Schoen, but has continued under him, and that is the utter lack of self-scouting. They bought into 2022's success when it was crystal clear that the playoff run was more mirage than anything else.

It's fine to think you've got a base to build on, but to think you're a SB contender when you got your ass handed to you by a team that actually made it there? Just so short-sighted, and likely led to evaluations like Banks. Sure, he can be the difference-maker that gets us to the SB. A total lack of self-awareness.

In comment 16658617 Lambuth_Special said:

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In comment 16658590 bw in dc said: Quote: In comment 16658569 christian said: Quote: The Giants don't have an offense, they have a receiver. If you are using offense to mean a QB, I agree. But I think there are some good parts in place. The OL was functioning much better, the RBBC was looking bullish, the receivers looks more promising than ever, and Dabka know offense. And then there is Jones... Shades of 98/99 with Kanell/Graham and Ike, Toomer, and Tiki.

And also why I refuse to give up on Wan'Dale, who had more explosive plays with Tyrod and DeVito in the lineup