Sy on NYG front office

For me.

gets at least two coaching hires. But one of them sure as shit has to go if not both.

This draft class looking so promising might be the saving grace for Schoen.

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off from having a watchable team on the field? I'm not talking about competitive, I'm talking about watchable.

This front office paid the quarterback, drafted no quarterbacks, signed Lock to be the backup, then had Lock make public statements confirming that he was the backup.

I can't reconcile it.

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He failed at the #1 responsibility of a GM: protect the franchise

This epic blowback and it is epic as its not normal from the kind of reaction to a QB in G1 of a season comes from everyone recognizing the problem

He needed some form of hope at the QB when Jones failed

Thats why we are where are right now in full fledged fan revolt. Its Schoens fault . Its his job.

He needed an alternative at QB that provided hope. He neglected his most basic responsibility and the franchise is suffering and its only the beginning

I'm sure that's the situation today.

But...presuming the Giants get destroyed by the Steelers, combined with another awful performance by Jones, would start the ball rolling. Add an embarrassing potential loss to the Panthers, and blow outs by the Commanders, Bucs and Cowboys, and we may be seeing a whole different story.

If Jones has more disaster games against Pittsburgh and the Commanders, Daboll has to sit him, or everyone will turn against the FO.

I respect Sy's opinion, but I disagree.

has this one backwards. Daboll coached that 2022 team which was largely Gettleman's players. I give Schoen little to no credit for 2022.

If we don't score and we don't win, what difference does it make if Schoen has made our cap position healthier? BFD.

Schoen has had three full drafts. And thus far the only potential superstar is Nabers. Everyone else? Who the hell knows at this point.

At least the dunce Gettleman produced two superstar players in Sexy and Thomas.

I agree with bw's assessment. Daboll has shown more than Schoen, but they can both leave imo

regarding our quarterback situation since he started here....the four year deal with an injury clause....not drafting a QB since he has gotten here.....$5 million absurd dollars for Lock.....and the continuing playing of Jones who has only regressed since he started here.

That is on Schoen. You can say Mara has a hand in it....but to me this is Schoen.

This is where I'm @ with Schoen: after last season & seeing how Jones performed vs. how TT/DeVito performed, it was football malpractice to roll into this season with Jones, Lock, & DeVito on the QB depth chart. Hell, it was football malpractice just to hand Jones the job with no competition. And here we are on 10/22 & the season is all but DOA, our QB is a national punchline, & we're averaging 15 PPG.

& I'm sick of 'Well, he tried to trade up for Drake.' Enough of that BS. I'm starting to come around to the thought that that was just window dressing to appease a fan base that is fed up with Jones in season six, as if they were actually trying to move heaven & earth to get a QB. And hey, if you actually tried to get Maye, but NE wasn't willing to play ball...there are other routes to get a QB, hell even a developmental one. Instead we sign Lock, who was no threat to challenge Jones for the job. Jones has been given a scholarship. Simple as that. Then I have to read/listen about how Joe had to have a convo with Daniel about how it might be uncomfortable seeing guys like Daniels/Maye in the building. Is Daniel that sensitive? It's a fucking business.

Joe & Daboll can both go in my opinion. This is year three & we're regressing.

Discarding the GM after three years has not worked in the past.

Every time you fire a GM you are going back a step.
The new GM will want to create the team in his image.
This means overhauling the roster and starting over.

This is insanity.

If you think you are frustrated now, it can and will get a lot worse than it is now.

Let Schoen continue to build the roster and bring in a new QB.
The Giants have turned over the roster.

They have the youngest starting players. There are (5) starters and a total of (8) rookies or first-year players on the active roster.

The defense is a couple of players away from becoming dominant.

The offense needs a QB, WR, and OL.

Let's see how this team performs with a quality QB.

Last year with his mishandling of the coaching staff - his hires, his process. Unforgivable…we talk about a head coach losing the players; this one lost his staff. Lots of poor game plans, poor decisions….Daboll can go. Give me Vrabel over him any day.

Schoen has done both good and bad in my view. I’d give him more time to build the roster and get the QB. If he’s gone too I won’t lose sleep over it, but think it’s a step back short term to reset the GM position. A coach and a QB and we have a pretty good team.

for restructuring the Giants scouting staff and modernizing certain aspects while still failing him for the other stuff a GM does.

with the Schoen part of Sy's take and the HC at this point should be done at years end imv. JS has done some good things personnel wise but plenty of misses. He also hired BD and is aligned with BD's philosophy which is another problem imv.

Perhaps he will join the thread and give more details to his thought process.

But right now no way does he deserve to come back however still this year there is more time to see any evolution. But, many of us wouldn't have signed Jones, so who made the decision? So he made an enormous blunder with the QB.

After last season did the Giants look to reload or rebuild? The looked this year as a rebuild, correct? Yet the prior year what was done? We didn't change the OL much, did we? So shouldn't JS "get credit" for assembling one of the worst OL's in sports NFL History in this modern history? How can it be THAT bad if they must've known it wasn't even good in 2022? So a bench wasn't built. Whose fault is that?

So after 2022 they expected to be a good team. Yet 1 year they realize the team was no good but didn’t know before? They were THAT confident in their talent? Whose fault is it for blundering on the QB and blundering on the TE and putting forth a historically bad OL that you only realize these parts are bad one year later in which the prior year you were sold they were good?. That's half the team the GM was clueless on. He’s supposed to get points for not understanding the quality of his team?

Now there is also questions about the Coach? Well who hired the coach? So, we're supposed to ignore the poor QB Decision, the poor OL decisions, the poor TE decision, and the sub-par coaching decision?

I'm not saying dump him as of this moment. More time to see it all. But right now imo JS appears to be very incompetent. For example, the OL has been pretty good overall before our terrific Left Tackle A Thomas, injury. If this OL sinks to being subpar or bad this would be THREE YEARS that JS hasn't gotten the job done on a position so obvious that it needed help.


So, I'm not saying "dump him" yet, but if this OL ends up being subpar - not even being average yet again- how can we say this dude is competent? Anyone should be able to understand you have a guy like Jones, or next tear a rookie QB, you need to get him a good OL. It's the most important position on the field, and so far what has our GM accomplished? oh yeah he can "brag" the OL is better than last year.

In comment 16657820 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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This is where I'm @ with Schoen: after last season & seeing how Jones performed vs. how TT/DeVito performed, it was football malpractice to roll into this season with Jones, Lock, & DeVito on the QB depth chart. Hell, it was football malpractice just to hand Jones the job with no competition. And here we are on 10/22 & the season is all but DOA, our QB is a national punchline, & we're averaging 15 PPG. & I'm sick of 'Well, he tried to trade up for Drake.' Enough of that BS. I'm starting to come around to the thought that that was just window dressing to appease a fan base that is fed up with Jones in season six, as if they were actually trying to move heaven & earth to get a QB. And hey, if you actually tried to get Maye, but NE wasn't willing to play ball...there are other routes to get a QB, hell even a developmental one. Instead we sign Lock, who was no threat to challenge Jones for the job. Jones has been given a scholarship. Simple as that. Then I have to read/listen about how Joe had to have a convo with Daniel about how it might be uncomfortable seeing guys like Daniels/Maye in the building. Is Daniel that sensitive? It's a fucking business. Joe & Daboll can both go in my opinion. This is year three & we're regressing.

It struck me out of nowhere today that in 1/3 of the time Jones has been with the Giants, the Steelers drafted Kenny Pickett in the 1st round, traded him with value, signed a washed up HOF QB who is still 10x’s the QB Jones will ever be on his best day, and traded for a former first round QB to hedge their bet on said washed up HOF’er.

And the Joe Scheon led NYG has basically done Jack Squat on the QB position.

problems with players executing, coaches coaching, and the front-office building the roster, tend to get conflated. So you have Schoen, Daboll, and individual players getting undeserved heat for missteps made by others in the food chain.

And Mara ultimately gets blamed for everything, which is even more of a useless exercise, because unlike everyone else in the building, he's not even theoretically going anywhere.

Anyway, I agree with Sy that Schoen's done a good enough job to justify his continued employment. But the major caveat here is that, if this team can't crack five wins this season, all bets are off.

We really don't know if Schoen/Dabool have a free hand on dealing with Jones. If Mara stuck his nose in, and insisted that there was no option other than Jones, then Schoen isn't to blame (at least with the QB position).

Yes, everyone in 1925 Giants Way is denying this, but we saw what happened with Mara hiring only Coaches and GM's that would keep Eli and now Jones before Schoen. Does anyone think that Mara has changed his stripes?

John Mara isn't blind. He's seeing the same QB we see. He has to know Jones isn't the answer. I doubt that Daboll would be still starting Jones if he had a free hand.

Were to tell me that Schoen had way more heavy lifting to do in rebuilding the front office than we even realize, I’d believe it.

It also may explain why this year’s draft was significantly better than the last 2.

I’d still like to know what the actual plan for a QB is. Unless this is a legit tank and they don’t want to admit it, not at least getting competition for Jones is completely asinine.

The need for a new QB was obvious to everyone after Jones 2023 performance. Downgrading from Taylor to Lock is a fireable offense .

In comment 16657839 JohnF said:

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We really don't know if Schoen/Dabool have a free hand on dealing with Jones. If Mara stuck his nose in, and insisted that there was no option other than Jones, then Schoen isn't to blame (at least with the QB position). Yes, everyone in 1925 Giants Way is denying this, but we saw what happened with Mara hiring only Coaches and GM's that would keep Eli and now Jones before Schoen. Does anyone think that Mara has changed his stripes? John Mara isn't blind. He's seeing the same QB we see. He has to know Jones isn't the answer. I doubt that Daboll would be still starting Jones if he had a free hand.

No Offense by imo your post is all about excuse-making.

I think the last two drafts will grade out pretty well for Schoen. I think this current team is much more talented than when he took over, especially on defense with a number of good young guys. I want to give them a chance to get a new QB

that produces any confidence in this organization directionally. squint hard enough and u can find something that isnt totally fucked like the pass rush but what does it mean if everything still adds up to embarrassing efforts?

In comment 16657839 JohnF said:

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We really don't know if Schoen/Dabool have a free hand on dealing with Jones. If Mara stuck his nose in, and insisted that there was no option other than Jones, then Schoen isn't to blame (at least with the QB position). Yes, everyone in 1925 Giants Way is denying this, but we saw what happened with Mara hiring only Coaches and GM's that would keep Eli and now Jones before Schoen. Does anyone think that Mara has changed his stripes?

We saw it in Hard Knocks - John Mara standing in Schoen's office, telling him how he wouldn't be able to sleep if Saquon wound up in Philly. Schoen let him walk anyway. He had a plan, and he wasn't going to let the owner's sleep cycle dictate his gameplan. And that was coming off a 6-11 season.

Now think back to the end of the 2022 season. We just finished going 9-7 and winning a road playoff game, in Schoen's first season. If there was every any conflict between what the owner wanted and what the GM wanted, Schoen had all the leverage he needed to insist on His Way.

If Schoen was willing to go against Mara after 2023, then it's only fair to assume he'd have been willing to do so after 2022. The fact that he didn't - and the fact that both he and Daboll gave a full-throated endorsement of Daniel Jones in their first post-season press conference after getting bounced from the playoffs, tells me that Schoen wanted Jones back irrespective of what Mara wanted.

But this is his opinion. I think the BBI divide on Schoen’s long term viability here is probably 50/50. I personally think Schoen has enough sins here to warrant immediate termination right now.

If they can learn from their mistakes.

That being said if the Schoen is fired I would be for promoting Brandon Brown.

I don't think anyone can say with a straight face the roster is architected in such a way they are close to competing for a championship.

The Giants don't have an offense. That's sort of a big deal.

The operation that was depicted on Hard Knocks was amateur hour. It was unimpressive, unserious, and scary if you care about wins and losses.

I'll repeat: the Giants would be in a better situation if they entered 2025 as an expansion team.

why is it that we don't have Russell Wilson or Marcus Mariota or McCarthy or Penix or Nix as as current starting QB?

Schoen was told to build the team around DJ. I think he has done that. The last draft with his scouts was the best in 10 years. He's not going anywhere. If DJ was an above average QB the team would still be in the hunt.

Daboll looks to be the scapegoat especially if they continue to spiral downward. He really needs 6-7 wins to save his job.

You’re looking for a long term relationship with the GM, Coach and QB. If you keep JS & BD and draft a QB and there’s no improvement then you’re going into year 2 or 3 with a GM & coach getting fired and the new GM/HC might prefer their own QB. You don’t want to mess up a young QB with a different coach and coordinator and have him learn a new system every year. That’s not the recipe for success.

If you’re keeping Schoen then you want him here long term. If you keep Dabs then you’re keeping him at least 2-3 years to develop the new QB.

Has Schoen done enough to warrant drafting the next QB and then committing to him for the next 3-4 years? I’m not so sure. That’s the big question.

Like BW said, the 2 best players on the team were drafted by DG. Nabers does look like a stud I think this draft looks pretty good. But a lot of his draft pick leave a lot to be desired. The OL still leaves a lot to be desired. He’s done a terrible job with the OL. So I have mixed feelings about him and Daboll. I really liked them both but something is just off with this team. It’s beyond just the QB situation.

Just saying.

Joe Schoen failed to invest significant draft capital on defensive lineman.

Just saying.

In comment 16657890 M.S. said:

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Just saying. Joe Schoen failed to invest significant draft capital on defensive lineman. Just saying.

This means nothing of import.

I don't think DJ was a unilateral decision, I actually think Hard Knocks showed they have a lot of contempt for Jones. I see two guys who are proving Jones is terrible at the expense of this season.

You can just see the way team Mara was waxing poetic about Barkley that any change we see is looking turning an oil tanker.

I think they deserve to get their QB next year which will buy them two years. The worst thing to happen to this franchise in the past 4 years was the fools gold playoff run in 2022.

Both Daboll and Schoen should go.

You are the GM and you have a very limited qb and no real back up to him.

In that case you build a run blocking o line and put a great back behind it and go play action and RPO.

Instead we build a pass blocking o line, let our star running back go and then have a coach that Schoen hired insist the best way to win is by throwing the ball first and often. I am sure Daboll was in on the decision on how the offense would be built.

So they are both incompetent.

We want to bench players such as Jones when they stink but somehow we want to keep a HC and GM who both stink

They built this Titanic knowing Jones was the iceberg. They both need to go down with the ship.

And we can watch Mara play music in his box as the ship sinks and the fans abandon the sinking ship. Because that is exactly what is going on with the Giants. My opinion of course.

In comment 16657826 Archer said:

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Discarding the GM after three years has not worked in the past. Every time you fire a GM you are going back a step. The new GM will want to create the team in his image. This means overhauling the roster and starting over. This is insanity. If you think you are frustrated now, it can and will get a lot worse than it is now. Let Schoen continue to build the roster and bring in a new QB. The Giants have turned over the roster. They have the youngest starting players. There are (5) starters and a total of (8) rookies or first-year players on the active roster. The defense is a couple of players away from becoming dominant. The offense needs a QB, WR, and OL. Let's see how this team performs with a quality QB.

Agreed. I also really believe there was a ton of organizational rot that needed cleaning by Schoen re: scouting of both players and prospects.

Schoen is in his first GM job. I don't think he's done enough to be fired yet.

Not sure I agree with this.

If Schoen is doing a good job building the roster over three years, and the team is still this putrid, how can you see the coaching staff as a gray area? Wouldn’t a coaching staff who has been blessed with some really good player acquisitions be expected to show progress?

I don’t see how anyone can think Schoen is doing a good job and Daboll and his staff may also be doing a good job, yet this is a team that isn’t competitive against the dregs of the league after three years.

Help me out.

Schoen is the primary problem with this franchise. And if you fire Schoen, you have to fire Daboll, who is unfortunately a casualty of Schoen's dreadful mess.

There can be no half measures here. The absolute worst thing that can happen is Schoen scapegoating and firing Daboll and putting this franchise right back where it was in 2013 when Kevin Gilbride was blamed for Reese's mess, setting in motion the abyss the franchise finds itself in today.

The GM, HC and QB need to be fully aligned on the rebuild timeline or this insane decade will turn into another decade.

In comment 16657912 BlackLight said:

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In comment 16657890 M.S. said: Quote: Just saying. Joe Schoen failed to invest significant draft capital on defensive lineman. Just saying. This means nothing of import.

Except it could get him fired. The Giants LOS play running the ball and stopping the run has descended to the bottom of the NFL.

Or let them get a shot with their own QB. I'm not keeping Schoen and turning him into a lame duck. You go after Vrabel and let him pick his own GM to work with.

This is schoens mess.

In comment 16657992 GiantGrit said:

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Or let them get a shot with their own QB. I'm not keeping Schoen and turning him into a lame duck. You go after Vrabel and let him pick his own GM to work with.

Totally agree with your second thought. I much prefer the HC to pick his GM and have the GM report to him. I think this traditional GM > HC is ancient.

I hear you on the first point, too. Unfortunately, you can make a case they did select their QB with Jones. And Schoen doubled down on Jones with his window-shopping effort for a QB before the draft.

But I know what you mean in terms of actually drafting one.

Remember,he had to clean up the mess He inherited from Gettelman.

In comment 16658014 mitch300 said:

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Remember,he had to clean up the mess He inherited from Gettelman.

So, Schoen should get at least six years...

In comment 16657965 Mike from Ohio said:

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Not sure I agree with this. If Schoen is doing a good job building the roster over three years, and the team is still this putrid, how can you see the coaching staff as a gray area? Wouldn’t a coaching staff who has been blessed with some really good player acquisitions be expected to show progress? I don’t see how anyone can think Schoen is doing a good job and Daboll and his staff may also be doing a good job, yet this is a team that isn’t competitive against the dregs of the league after three years. Help me out.

Don't want to speak for Sy, but I'm guessing his point is the team's performance is due to having a bad QB, and the corresponding trickle down effect. It makes everyone else look bad.

What’s he done that merits keeping him? What is the list of his accomplishments? Where are the shrewd pickups from other teams? We are in year 3, and it’s the same shit show.