Don't be forced into drafting a QB

how we do that is up for discussion, but all options should be on the table. And learn from Jones, if it doesn’t look promising, cut bait and move on, cost be damned.

Since they have added anyone.

It's about time.

about getting a franchise QB is that there isn't a slam dunk way to get a guaranteed franchise QB. If there was, everyone would be doing it.

Turns out there's a whole lot of ways to get there.

If draft spot and talent don't line up precisely, we can wait another 5 or 10 years to take a shot at QB.

Again, the lesser problem was missing on Jones. The REAL problem was not identifying what was obvious after year two until year 6.

The idea of missing on a top QB setting the franchise back 5 years is absurd and outdated. With the rookie wage scale it is no more risky than taking a shot on a WR, CB or T (who also tend to bust).

you do what you can to get him, period.

Where teams tend to screw up is they double down on their mistake and keep forcing said draft pick into games thinking something will change, hence us on 6 years of Daniel Jones.

I've said this before, if we were in the 49er's situation, we'd still be starting Trey Lance and we would have never drafted Purdy because the team would have been to afraid to offend Trey...

The Giants could have drafted instead of Eli?

If we draft another QB - particularly one who passes the Mara filters- will the organization behave any differently?

At any cost?

school in the first round if need be. I'm done with Jones.

if it's not a slam dunk and then draft another one. Repeat until we get a good one.

Overdrafting Jones was a mistake but the far bigger mistake was keeping him for 6 years and counting.

part is more important. forcing DJ to take a backups salary is cutting bait in my mind. If not him than you still need to have that position filled before you enter the draft unless you have the top 2 picks or something.

He is unplayable at home.

In comment 16658254 HardTruth said:

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The Giants could have drafted instead of Eli?

I meant that he went to the SB 3 times and has 2 rings..

In comment 16658253 Biteymax22 said:

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you do what you can to get him, period. Where teams tend to screw up is they double down on their mistake and keep forcing said draft pick into games thinking something will change, hence us on 6 years of Daniel Jones. I've said this before, if we were in the 49er's situation, we'd still be starting Trey Lance and we would have never drafted Purdy because the team would have been to afraid to offend Trey...

You said teams (plural) double down in your post...I think that's my biggest issue with the NYG.

Teams don't do this anymore. There's only one that does.

I suppose one can make the argument about the Cards and Jags...but they aren't far along in process as the Giants. SO maybe they made the same mistake - TBD

anyone could make. The fanbase will go nuts. And why would Jones renegotiate?

Sure, don’t draft a QB just to draft one, but there are always serviceable QB’s on the market. Sign one as a bridge QB, or pay to trade up to a spot where you can draft a QB you like.

In comment 16658266 chuckydee9 said:

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In comment 16658254 HardTruth said: Quote: The Giants could have drafted instead of Eli? I meant that he went to the SB 3 times and has 2 rings..

Pittsburgh were a perennial playoff team and contender prior to drafting Ben. He barely threw the ball early in his career and they won in spite of it. Count the Hall of Famers on that 2004 squad if you want, or through Ben's career. Eli has more than 2 in The Steel City.

am typically against trading up for any player in the first round, but especially a QB. The cost is extremely high and 50% of first-round QBs bust. I think the better strategy is to take a QB if one falls to you or use a second or third round pick on a QB every few years until you hit on one who can be your franchise QB.

But I also think Schoen has botched too many draft picks to have earned the right to give up the ton of draft capital necessary to move up for a QB. His player evaluation skills haven't been good enough to trust his judgment with such a major move.

Is treating the QB position different from any other

You dont need to fall in love, you dont need to have conviction, etc

Set out for competition at the QB position and keep looking to improve the position

In comment 16658253 Biteymax22 said:

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you do what you can to get him, period. Where teams tend to screw up is they double down on their mistake and keep forcing said draft pick into games thinking something will change, hence us on 6 years of Daniel Jones. I've said this before, if we were in the 49er's situation, we'd still be starting Trey Lance and we would have never drafted Purdy because the team would have been to afraid to offend Trey...

No, it would be like the 49ers still starting JimmyG.

I was one of the few that completely hated the $160M 4year deal.. but at this stage to just eat all that money over the next 2 years and having to watch Lock play or drafting someone like Zack Wilson might be worse than DJ. We need a backup anyhow. Why not work out a contract that will help us with the cap and give us a safety net. giving him something like 4 year 50M with only $12M for next year guranteed might actually help us extend the cap hit till later down the road. It gives us a backup and Cap room to get better CBs or more OL help..

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Cutting Jones and not getting anyone to replace Lock/Devito is not a good way to go into the draft. If a deal can be agreed upon with DJ something where he gets paid $10-12M next year which can help us out with the CAP next year would be ideal. DJ at $40M is bad.. DJ at $12M is actually a good choice so that we aren't desperate to get a QB.

On top of the fact that the DJ era has to end, there's not a shot in hell his agent would allow that to happen, or the NFLPA for that matter.

"Hey we want you on the roster in 2025, but instead of what we agreed to pay you, we want you to play for $12 million."

You think that's going to fly when he's guaranteed that exact amount if he's on the roster on the 5th day of the 2025 NFL year, and a $30 million base salary for the 2025 season?

Of all the insane ways to cling to this asshole for another year, this one is by far the most ludicrous.

In comment 16658274 Section331 said:

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In comment 16658253 Biteymax22 said: Quote: you do what you can to get him, period. Where teams tend to screw up is they double down on their mistake and keep forcing said draft pick into games thinking something will change, hence us on 6 years of Daniel Jones. I've said this before, if we were in the 49er's situation, we'd still be starting Trey Lance and we would have never drafted Purdy because the team would have been to afraid to offend Trey... No, it would be like the 49ers still starting JimmyG.

Lol, you may be right

They haven't drafted a single QB in any round in 6 years, longest in the NFL.

The fact of the matter is they are going to be forced to draft a QB. The fact is that they are incredibly desperate with a GM and HC that are on hot seats. They lost their opportunity to not force it. It's something many of us have said for a while.

In comment 16658280 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

Quote: Cutting Jones and not getting anyone to replace Lock/Devito is not a good way to go into the draft. If a deal can be agreed upon with DJ something where he gets paid $10-12M next year which can help us out with the CAP next year would be ideal. DJ at $40M is bad.. DJ at $12M is actually a good choice so that we aren't desperate to get a QB. On top of the fact that the DJ era has to end, there's not a shot in hell his agent would allow that to happen, or the NFLPA for that matter. "Hey we want you on the roster in 2025, but instead of what we agreed to pay you, we want you to play for $12 million." You think that's going to fly when he's guaranteed that exact amount if he's on the roster on the 5th day of the 2025 NFL year, and a $30 million base salary for the 2025 season? Of all the insane ways to cling to this asshole for another year, this one is by far the most ludicrous.

I don't think NFLPA has a choice. We can cut him anytime we want after this season is over barring an injury. So he and his agent have an option now. We bench his ass the rest of the year so he can't get injured and then they can run around in the offseason looking for another contract or they can accept a re-done contract. This is the NFL. players re-do their contracts all the time to stay on a team.

Teams around the league don't double down on terrible QBs. That is a New York Giants thing. And it has nothing to do with the play on the field. It has to do with the owner putting more emphasis on what the QB says and does off the field than on.

If John Mara can't realize how his affection for making a media spokesman our QB has screwed this team over, we will make the same mistake with the next QB we bring in.

is his cap hit this year.
Im convinced there WILL be a new QB room next year, be it vets acquired by FA or trade or via the draft.

I think Schoen would have preferred to have a top draftee for this season to be playing by now. Long term for the organization, getting a talent like Nabers as “consolation”, was a good move IF they get a QB in here next year who can actually play!

In comment 16658291 chuckydee9 said:

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I don't think NFLPA has a choice. We can cut him anytime we want after this season is over barring an injury. So he and his agent have an option now. We bench his ass the rest of the year so he can't get injured and then they can run around in the offseason looking for another contract or they can accept a re-done contract. This is the NFL. players re-do their contracts all the time to stay on a team.

Fair, but I'd suggest that Jones and his agent would say "thanks but no thanks" and look for somewhere else to go. Someone will take a shot at him, guys like him bounce around for 12 years.

In comment 16658280 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

Quote: Cutting Jones and not getting anyone to replace Lock/Devito is not a good way to go into the draft. If a deal can be agreed upon with DJ something where he gets paid $10-12M next year which can help us out with the CAP next year would be ideal. DJ at $40M is bad.. DJ at $12M is actually a good choice so that we aren't desperate to get a QB. On top of the fact that the DJ era has to end, there's not a shot in hell his agent would allow that to happen, or the NFLPA for that matter. "Hey we want you on the roster in 2025, but instead of what we agreed to pay you, we want you to play for $12 million." You think that's going to fly when he's guaranteed that exact amount if he's on the roster on the 5th day of the 2025 NFL year, and a $30 million base salary for the 2025 season? Of all the insane ways to cling to this asshole for another year, this one is by far the most ludicrous.

I wonder how this poster would react if their boss came to them today and said "Contractually, we owe you your full salary, but we'd like to pay you only a fraction of that. How about it?"

In comment 16658298 rsjem1979 said:

Quote:

In comment 16658291 chuckydee9 said: Quote: I don't think NFLPA has a choice. We can cut him anytime we want after this season is over barring an injury. So he and his agent have an option now. We bench his ass the rest of the year so he can't get injured and then they can run around in the offseason looking for another contract or they can accept a re-done contract. This is the NFL. players re-do their contracts all the time to stay on a team. Fair, but I'd suggest that Jones and his agent would say "thanks but no thanks" and look for somewhere else to go. Someone will take a shot at him, guys like him bounce around for 12 years.

Thats fine. If he leaves he leaves. We bench him the rest of the year and suck it up with Lock. Don't have him run around out there waiting to get injured then. The negatives of DJ playing far outweigh the positive.

In comment 16658300 Mike from Ohio said:

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In comment 16658280 rsjem1979 said: Quote: Quote: Cutting Jones and not getting anyone to replace Lock/Devito is not a good way to go into the draft. If a deal can be agreed upon with DJ something where he gets paid $10-12M next year which can help us out with the CAP next year would be ideal. DJ at $40M is bad.. DJ at $12M is actually a good choice so that we aren't desperate to get a QB. On top of the fact that the DJ era has to end, there's not a shot in hell his agent would allow that to happen, or the NFLPA for that matter. "Hey we want you on the roster in 2025, but instead of what we agreed to pay you, we want you to play for $12 million." You think that's going to fly when he's guaranteed that exact amount if he's on the roster on the 5th day of the 2025 NFL year, and a $30 million base salary for the 2025 season? Of all the insane ways to cling to this asshole for another year, this one is by far the most ludicrous. I wonder how this poster would react if their boss came to them today and said "Contractually, we owe you your full salary, but we'd like to pay you only a fraction of that. How about it?"

All employees in any At-will employment state live with this posibility. Didn't the giants do this to Sterling Shepard not too long ago?

I was one who thought the Giants could rationalize bringing him back. But it's been too bad. If the current regime stays, they're drafting a QB. New regime will make a clean start whether it's draft or QB.

You can't bring Jones back at any price.

I've always been gung ho about drafting QBs, but I'm getting gunshy about the Giants doing it because of the Jones experience. The whole "set the franchise back 5 years" is BS. But it might be true for the Giants.

But there is more than one path here. We've seen a few recent cases where superbowls were won by QBs who weren't on their first team, so we shouldn't exclude those options and blind ourselves into thinking there is only one path here. The obvious and preferred answer is to draft one in round 1, but I agree, you can't force it. Another option is to sign a veteran FA QB who can be your starter and still draft a QB, but not necessarily in round 1 and possibly in need some developing. Thirdly, you trade for a starting QB.

That is intriguing to me is Darnold. I doubt Minn lets him walk if he keeps playing like this.

So, unless you want Jameis Winston, Dalton, or Zach Wilson as plan A, they absolutely have to draft a QB early.

In comment 16658305 Jerry in_DC said:

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I've always been gung ho about drafting QBs, but I'm getting gunshy about the Giants doing it because of the Jones experience. The whole "set the franchise back 5 years" is BS. But it might be true for the Giants.

This is the big question. People are acting like the next QB will be a savior. The odds are very high the next QB will bust. Will the Giants be as dishonest with themselves about the new guy as they were with Jones?

I think they will be. The full bloom love approach to QBs lends itself to it. Shit they did it with Eli.

David Cutcliffe coached QB because that was the driver of going with Jones.

In various days/rounds.

Let’s make up for lost time.

In comment 16658319 Go Terps said:

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In comment 16658305 Jerry in_DC said: Quote: I've always been gung ho about drafting QBs, but I'm getting gunshy about the Giants doing it because of the Jones experience. The whole "set the franchise back 5 years" is BS. But it might be true for the Giants. This is the big question. People are acting like the next QB will be a savior. The odds are very high the next QB will bust. Will the Giants be as dishonest with themselves about the new guy as they were with Jones? I think they will be. The full bloom love approach to QBs lends itself to it. Shit they did it with Eli.

I agree. This was my point going back to 2017. and telling your QB who is getting paid like Mahomes that he will get in line and take a 12M deal cause it helps the team would be the step in the right direction.

God forbid DJ gets injured and then collects another $40M next year. Instead doing something small like this actually helps fill a hole at backup QB position. DJ is a great guy and he can help the young QB if nothing else than make the new QB look better cause he sucks so bad. Signing Jones to a backup deal now allows us all the options to replace him as a starter next year as well as give us the ability to wait till 5th or 6th pick to take the BPA.

I would cut him today.

What needs to change is the team's approach to QB. They've got to stop treating these guys like they're US Senators.

They should draft two in April, not one. Then those guys should only get two years to prove they belong before the team explores options on replacing them.

I have long said that drafting a "top 3" QB means you have a bad team, and that getting "your guy" at any price usually means making your bad team worse (ask Cleveland about "any price").

Super Bowl winning QBs since 2001 show a slight preference for first round mid-range (mid-range teams already have talent and can be carried the last mile by a star QB). There are more (5 vs 3) SB winning QBs drafted after the first round than in the top of the first; here's the data:

12 individuals have won 23 Super Bowls since the 2001 season.

7 first round (3 position 1, then 10, 11, 18, 24)
1 second round 32
2 third round 75, 88
1 sixth round 199
1 ninth round 227

The winners are:

2001 Tom Brady (6th round 199)
2002 Brad Johnson (9th round 227)
2003 Tom Brady (6th round 199)
2004 Tom Brady (6th round 199)
2005 Ben Roethlisberger (1st round 11)
2006 Peyton Manning (1st round 1)
2007 Eli Manning (1st round 1)
2008 Ben Roethlisberger (1st round 11)
2009 Drew Brees (2nd round 32)
2010 Aaron Rodgers (1st round 24)
2011 Eli Manning (1st round 1)
2012 Joe Flacco (1st round 18)
2013 Russell Wilson (3rd round 75)
2014 Tom Brady (6th round 199)
2015 Peyton Manning (1st round 1)
2016 Tom Brady (6th round 199)
2017 Nick Foles (3rd round 88)
2018 Tom Brady (6th round 199)
2019 Patrick Mahomes (1st round 10)
2020 Tom Brady (6th round 199)
2021 Matthew Stafford (1st round 1)
2022 Patrick Mahomes (1st round 10)
2023 Patrick Mahomes (1st round 10)

I think the data says that if you are picking in the top 3-5 sopts, your team isn't ready to win, even with:

Trevor Lawrence
Zach Wilson
Trey Lance
Baker Mayfield
Kyler Murray
Mitch Trubisky
(the list is very long)

Bottom line: Bad teams pick high and ruin potentially championship winning QBs. Build your team, win some games, get your guy lower 1st round or after.

The other guy with three rings had defenses that averaged being in the top three the majority of his entire of his carrer. His early days with the NY media would have been a disaster.

In comment 16658350 Go Terps said:

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I would cut him today. What needs to change is the team's approach to QB. They've got to stop treating these guys like they're US Senators. They should draft two in April, not one. Then those guys should only get two years to prove they belong before the team explores options on replacing them.

I wanted them to pick one in last years draft, simply because I believe Daboll was able to take an UDFA QB and make him a respectable back up. Someone with slightly more physical ability would be a great way to move on from DJ. But my conspiracy theory is that Daboll and Schoen didn't want to give Mara any 'out' on DJ and picked up Lock as that limited ceiling potential QB. This way when DJ flops they can move on cleanly. I just wonder if they will be able to survive the year with this plan....again, my conspiracy theory.

plays the same as DJ for a fraction of the cost.

I see no downside. If he isn't working out draft another one next year or the year after, and sign a vet if you want.

In comment 16658357 Simms said:

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The other guy with three rings had defenses that averaged being in the top three the majority of his entire of his carrer. His early days with the NY media would have been a disaster.

Why would the NY media be a problem. We have had a bad QB for 6 years and nobody in the media has been anything but kind and deferential to him.

In comment 16658350 Go Terps said:

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I would cut him today. What needs to change is the team's approach to QB. They've got to stop treating these guys like they're US Senators. They should draft two in April, not one. Then those guys should only get two years to prove they belong before the team explores options on replacing them.

this. and i would also sign a FA that can actually play.

Have to pull the trigger eventually. They have backed themselves into a corner. This team even had an Andy dalton at QB right now and we would have a winning recorded and be competing for the the division

Then make a priority to draft one. Ideally you get one in the first, but you can't force something if it's not there. If you can't get one at first round grade, you get one later. But the key is to set the floor for your team in FA because you can't control how the draft will play out.

your argument, but why didn't you mention the 'Atlanta model' of bringing in Cousins and having him in the barn already as a starter/fallback while you went after a QB in the first round of the draft and were able to land Penix? Seems like that would have fit the scenario you're pushing perfectly.

Maybe we hit on one.

In comment 16658404 FranknWeezer said:

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your argument, but why didn't you mention the 'Atlanta model' of bringing in Cousins and having him in the barn already as a starter/fallback while you went after a QB in the first round of the draft and were able to land Penix? Seems like that would have fit the scenario you're pushing perfectly.

Cause Cousins is a highly paid QB. I want to pay DJ a backup salary.. higher than the likes of Lock but not anywhere close to Cousins. But yes that was a good plan by Atlanta if they hadn't spend their entire bank on Cousins.

fans of 30 teams would agree that Ben is at least in the same level/tier of QB as Eli..but if you think otherwise then great for you.. My point is its not like we got Peyton and they got leaf.. I am not going to discuss the merit of Ben vs Eli in this thread..