John Mara said he does not anticipate making changes after the season. Part of reason he is committed to Joe Schoen & Brian Daboll — he still has confidence in them. Thinks he has not been patient enough in recent years. Mara - ( New Window )
Keeping Shurmur a 3rd year seems indisputable as the right call in the rear mirror. They could have pulled a Coughlinafter2007 move and forced him to hire a real DC and OC.
a struggling team by changing the coach and gm every 2 years because you then end up constantly having a completely new plan and starting from scratch every year. It takes time to build a winning team. Can't be pandering to fans like that, we generally don't know shit and make emotional decisions.
What examples can you cite of a team that stuck it with ineptitude for a few seasons and then finally hit it big with a turnaround in Y4?
The Steelers in 1971. The owners have since admitted they considered firing Chuck Noll after a third straight losing season, but decided they were seeing progress. The rest is history.
I am sick of him, his mouth and loser ways. Grow a set and get rid of the QB, coach GM all of them and let someone not named Mara run the team as the ultimate decision maker.
Otherwise enjoy losing another 10+ years
Mara owns the team and like EVERY owner it's his job to answer these types of questions... If you knew anything about football you would know he's one of the LEAST hands on owners in the league, despite the FAKE narrative found on these forums...
Is maybe they have been told they are coming back and that they are saddled with Jones for this season. *I don't really get it but makes sense on why they seem to be sticking with Jones instead of playing the undrafted FA ...
But, 2-5, in most games might be far different than being destroyed , 0 for in the division and sitting at 3-12 late in the season.
Starting to get an idea where we will be going QB wise after the season- maybe even at the deadline..
The Steelers in 1971. The owners have since admitted they considered firing Chuck Noll after a third straight losing season, but decided they were seeing progress. The rest is history.
Is maybe they have been told they are coming back and that they are saddled with Jones for this season. *I don't really get it but makes sense on why they seem to be sticking with Jones instead of playing the undrafted FA ...
But, 2-5, in most games might be far different than being destroyed , 0 for in the division and sitting at 3-12 late in the season.
Starting to get an idea where we will be going QB wise after the season- maybe even at the deadline..
But why risk the injury guarantee? That would make their jobs more difficult next year having to deal with a $45M Jones cap hit.
The Steelers in 1971. The owners have since admitted they considered firing Chuck Noll after a third straight losing season, but decided they were seeing progress. The rest is history.
The Steelers in 1971. The owners have since admitted they considered firing Chuck Noll after a third straight losing season, but decided they were seeing progress. The rest is history.
Coughlin after 2006 is another example.
Tom Coughlin is not an example here. The Giants were on a solid upward trajectory as the team improved from 4-12 before him to 6-10 with a rebuild spearheaded by the Eli trade and then an 11-5 NFC East division title and then an 8-8 wild card appearance that had a last second FG loss on the road to the Eagles
That team had back to back playoffs and a clear foundation of star players Strahan, Toomer, Tiki, Shockey, Plaxico, Pierce, Osi and a younger core coming up with Tuck, Jacobs around Eli who went from 6 TDs to 24 TDs back to bavk years
Accorsi told the team after the Philly loss there was a “championship in this room”
They werent an inept team scoring no TDs and getting whacked week in and week out that could only beat other bad teams
and the owner are currently reacting to a 2-5 start.
Things will be much different if this team is 4-13 and 0-6 in the NFC East.
And the sad reality is it’s not even the poor record (again). The Giants didn’t belong on the same field as the Eagles on Sunday. Not remotely competitive against one of our arch rivals, who could have score 50 or 60 if they wanted to run it up
I don’t want to speak for others, but as a fan I can handle losing. I want to see the Giants competitive, and showing signs they’ll be better in the future
Right now the QB and coach are worse in year 3 than they were in year 1
The Steelers in 1971. The owners have since admitted they considered firing Chuck Noll after a third straight losing season, but decided they were seeing progress. The rest is history.
Your example is 1971?
You’re asking for evidence with a tiny data set. I thought the example was germane. You think Steelers fan thought Noll was a good coach after the team closed the season by dropping 5 of 6 games to end 1970? Certainly not. But yet there he is, in Canton.
No doubt Schoen , Daboll and Mara have had conversations andknow
Daboll annd Schoen have been told they are safe and the agreement is play jones at least for now. This tells us Mara likes Daboll and Schoen. To me though it doesn't mean anything for Jones. My guess this is it for Jones.
I don't disagree. I don't excuse this regime at all. It's year 3 of a Daniel Jones trial run. Wasting years.
Given the QB play we're seeing right now, I can't get over telling Russell Wilson to take a hike.
-Was it because they were hoping to draft a QB? well, they failed at it, so not a positive mark in their favor.
-Was it because they paid Jones $40 million and wanted to salvage some value? THat's sounds like being overly prideful/buying into sunk cost fallacy, so not good either.
-Was it because they thought Jones was 100 percent better than WIlson? So laughably bad that it basically deserves no comment and indicates Schoen/the org thinks like a segment of the fanbase that has been wrong about everything since 2017.
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
I agree with you. This was about getting Jones a supporting cast and to assess his performance. I think Daboll has shined the light on the deficiency at QB and will continue to do so to prove to the brass that this is not going to cut it and a change must be made after this year. The one aspect of this they have to be careful weighing is how much you play him in respect to the injury clause if they want to part ways after this season.
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
You're most likely right. This HK clip confirms it. "This is the year for Daniel." Wasting time. Link - ( New Window )
That clip is a great insight into the utter chaos and dysfunction of the New York Giants.
The idiot relative taking the GM to task for losing a RB who was the foundational piece of a terrible offense. The GM being defensive - in a way that makes it sound like he didn't want to pay the QB $40M and is throwing that back in the face of the idiot relative who was part of that decision.
All of the culinating in the 2024 strategy, which is The Year of Daniel Jones. Not the team, not the 52 other players...Daniel Jones. We have to help Daniel!!!
They would give Jones one more chance this year in a sink or swim season. If Jones succeeds, Mara is justified in his stance and the organization wins overall. If Jones fails as expected Daboll and Schoen are justified in moving on from him and get a free pass this season. Additionally The team will be in position to draft a QB which is what they want after missing out on whoever they wanted in last years draft. The unofficial tank job is on!
Daboll's play calling and comments in pressers almost feel to me like he's been trying to "prove" to Mara how bad Jones is.
I wouldn't be shocked to learn that there was a "listen, you're not getting a QB this year but we won't hold it against you if Jones is what tanks the team" type deal with Mara/Schoen and Daboll.
the problem is that John Mara is not a proactive leader. He is not setting a vision and staying with it through the difficult times because he believes in it.
Mara is a petulant child who reacts emotionally to the a) the data points he likes, and b) the most recent data point. He keeps hiring and firing people so often it is difficult to understand if he is just terrible at hiring, or too impatient (maybe both).
Mara is to incompetent, emotional and reactive to run a franchise well. Whether he fires Schoen and/or Daboll at season end is almost irrelevant. Until there are intelligent adults running this team, you can just expect more of the same.
Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, Schoen, Daboll...all just symptoms of the problem - weak and incompetent leadership.
RE: RE: RE: Good, this is what I want to see happen
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
You're most likely right. This HK clip confirms it. "This is the year for Daniel." Wasting time. Link - ( New Window )
That clip is a great insight into the utter chaos and dysfunction of the New York Giants.
The idiot relative taking the GM to task for losing a RB who was the foundational piece of a terrible offense. The GM being defensive - in a way that makes it sound like he didn't want to pay the QB $40M and is throwing that back in the face of the idiot relative who was part of that decision.
All of the culinating in the 2024 strategy, which is The Year of Daniel Jones. Not the team, not the 52 other players...Daniel Jones. We have to help Daniel!!!
Yeah, there's a passive aggressiveness from Schoen in this that is not endearing. Well, fine if you want to put it all on Jones to show everyone that he's not the answer, but then you shuold've either not even entertained starting him in 2022 or just walk away from the negotiating table in 2023. WTF was the Mara family going to do in either of those scenarios?
1- Seems like Mara in his indirect mealy mouthed way communicated that he really wanted Daniel to have one more chance, but if there was an absolute 100% sure fire QB in the draft, Schoen had permission to take him. Mara is a DJFC guy and this is a DJFC perspective
2- Schoen wants a new QB (hence all the scouting) but did not want to fire a bullet at a tier 2 prospect this year because of Maras guidance. Note, we will draft that caliber of prospect this year. I think Schoen may have thought that Daniel is ok but not a guy you can really win with. His perspective is the hardest to figure out.
3- Daboll has been out on Jones for a while but has minimal influence. He's taking the "prove Daniel can't play" role very seriously this year, after much regret for the system he designed in 2022
This is all very stupid obviously. But the Giants are a stupid organization and are likely to remain so for a long time.
RE: RE: Feels like a “bet” was made between Daboll/Schoen and the Maras
I wouldn't be shocked to learn that there was a "listen, you're not getting a QB this year but we won't hold it against you if Jones is what tanks the team" type deal with Mara/Schoen and Daboll.
That’s what I believe. I also think Schoen and Daboll then went quiet conspiracy mode into a soft tank.
How to explain the fact that Greg Joseph remains the kicker? He missed his first two FGs, which were makeable. Then against the Eagles, he had a pretty easy one that he almost missed. I can’t imagine any situation in the NFL where a kicker with that debut wouldn’t have been already replaced.
Anyone have an explanation for Joseph continuing to be on the roster?
The basic point is that GM/HC have not been given long enough so they just need more time to have their plans and process play out to success.
It’s been 3 years.
So you would think there would be some examples amongst all the bad/losing teams every year and over the years of this playing out.
The scenario is a team that had its first year being the best and got worse each year. They haven’t even posted a double-digit regular season win total. They don’t even have a young QB in place that is showing signs of growing into a star. They don’t even have any foundational pieces that they have brought in (Lawrence & Thomas were a previous regime) . Potentially Nabers or Burns I guess? They don’t even have any discernible identity to show what they are building. They don’t even have a stable coaching staff as it was replaced after 2 seasons. They have whiffed on high draft choices like Neal.
We are largely getting blown out by every good team we faced and that was even in 2022 (Eagles twice, Cowboys, Lions, Seattle) . This has continued each season (Seattle, Dallas, SF, Saints, ) to this year (Vikings, Bengals, Eagles)
So where is an example of a regime that was losing, floundering and shown signs of serious ineptitude without a progressing young core that went on to this great success that vindicated the ownership’s patience?
I know the team was average in year 3 and not terrible but a lot of coaches would have got canned after 99.
But I want to concede your bigger point, HardTruth. I looked through pro football reference and most 3rd year coaches who survive make the playoffs that 3rd year and the 3rd years who don’t but are retained - a small sample size - mostly are fired during/after the 4th.
the problem is that John Mara is not a proactive leader. He is not setting a vision and staying with it through the difficult times because he believes in it.
Mara is a petulant child who reacts emotionally to the a) the data points he likes, and b) the most recent data point. He keeps hiring and firing people so often it is difficult to understand if he is just terrible at hiring, or too impatient (maybe both).
Mara is to incompetent, emotional and reactive to run a franchise well. Whether he fires Schoen and/or Daboll at season end is almost irrelevant. Until there are intelligent adults running this team, you can just expect more of the same.
Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, Schoen, Daboll...all just symptoms of the problem - weak and incompetent leadership.
This is where I'm at. I want to bring Schoen and Daboll back, not so much because I think they're awesome. I think they're fine. But I also think they are probably better than the next people we'd hire and that they can learn and improve. It's 1st time jobs for both of them so they will be learning things about the role. But perhaps more importantly they are leaving about how to navigate amongst the idiots that actually run this franchise.
1- Seems like Mara in his indirect mealy mouthed way communicated that he really wanted Daniel to have one more chance, but if there was an absolute 100% sure fire QB in the draft, Schoen had permission to take him. Mara is a DJFC guy and this is a DJFC perspective
2- Schoen wants a new QB (hence all the scouting) but did not want to fire a bullet at a tier 2 prospect this year because of Maras guidance. Note, we will draft that caliber of prospect this year. I think Schoen may have thought that Daniel is ok but not a guy you can really win with. His perspective is the hardest to figure out.
3- Daboll has been out on Jones for a while but has minimal influence. He's taking the "prove Daniel can't play" role very seriously this year, after much regret for the system he designed in 2022
This is all very stupid obviously. But the Giants are a stupid organization and are likely to remain so for a long time.
Yeah, the conclusion I get is that everyone involved is acting kind of stupid and petty, and it's centered around a QB who has hovered around 26th best for his career who had previously sunk another regime. Hard to conceptualize.
This is where I'm at. I want to bring Schoen and Daboll back, not so much because I think they're awesome. I think they're fine. But I also think they are probably better than the next people we'd hire and that they can learn and improve. It's 1st time jobs for both of them so they will be learning things about the role. But perhaps more importantly they are leaving about how to navigate amongst the idiots that actually run this franchise.
My hope is that Mara and McDonnell were absolutely pushing Schoen to sign and win with Jones. If so, there is a chance both will now realize they were very, very wrong in their evaluation of Jones and put their assessments where they belong - on a fan message board.
(Op Ed) - Given McDonnell's obvious annoyance at Schoen in that clip, my guess is he is part of the reason John loves Jones so much and clings to this "we ruined him" mindset. I think McDonnell sold him on Jones being a great player and now McDonnell can't walk that back. Losing Barkley exposed his error even more, and explains Schoen's "We aren't paying the QB $40M/year to hand off to a 12M/year RB" comment,
This is where I'm at. I want to bring Schoen and Daboll back, not so much because I think they're awesome. I think they're fine. But I also think they are probably better than the next people we'd hire and that they can learn and improve. It's 1st time jobs for both of them so they will be learning things about the role. But perhaps more importantly they are leaving about how to navigate amongst the idiots that actually run this franchise.
My hope is that Mara and McDonnell were absolutely pushing Schoen to sign and win with Jones. If so, there is a chance both will now realize they were very, very wrong in their evaluation of Jones and put their assessments where they belong - on a fan message board.
(Op Ed) - Given McDonnell's obvious annoyance at Schoen in that clip, my guess is he is part of the reason John loves Jones so much and clings to this "we ruined him" mindset. I think McDonnell sold him on Jones being a great player and now McDonnell can't walk that back. Losing Barkley exposed his error even more, and explains Schoen's "We aren't paying the QB $40M/year to hand off to a 12M/year RB" comment,
People talk about the "can't fire a relative" thing with O'Donnell like its the biggest problem with him having his position and it isn't. The biggest problem is that O'Donnell represents another mouthpiece for John that is dead in the middle of the pro personnel department. This would be fine if John and Tim had any track record of success and good decisions, but its the opposite.
In other words, Schoen has an employee that's more loyal to his inept boss than he is to Joe. That isn't a good situation for the franchise.
I know the team was average in year 3 and not terrible but a lot of coaches would have got canned after 99.
But I want to concede your bigger point, HardTruth. I looked through pro football reference and most 3rd year coaches who survive make the playoffs that 3rd year and the 3rd years who don’t but are retained - a small sample size - mostly are fired during/after the 4th.
Fassel is an interesting example as he did decline each of his 3 seasons. 10-5-1 and a NFC East division title to 8-8 and then 7-9 and no playoffs for 2 years. They even had acquired Collins for a QB and he wasn’t good at 2-5 with 8 TDs to 11 INts
The Giants did seem to have a strong defensive core with Strahan, Sehorn, Armstead and Hammer as an identity and top unit
But they also lost last 3 and 6 of last 8.
So this is a pretty good example I think.
RE: RE: RE: Good, this is what I want to see happen
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
You're most likely right. This HK clip confirms it. "This is the year for Daniel." Wasting time. Link - ( New Window )
That clip is a great insight into the utter chaos and dysfunction of the New York Giants.
The idiot relative taking the GM to task for losing a RB who was the foundational piece of a terrible offense. The GM being defensive - in a way that makes it sound like he didn't want to pay the QB $40M and is throwing that back in the face of the idiot relative who was part of that decision.
All of the culinating in the 2024 strategy, which is The Year of Daniel Jones. Not the team, not the 52 other players...Daniel Jones. We have to help Daniel!!!
Sounds like the kind of dysfunction commonly found in mom and pop shops to be very honest.
That is the exact point and the problem with having McDonnell where he is. You know that regardless of what the org chart says, he sees his real boss as John Mara.
If you are John Mara and you actually believe Tim McDonnell is brilliant and a widely respected personnel guy around the league, why isn't he the GM? Why do you put someone else in that chair and then saddle him with a relative of the owner who technically works for him, but in reality is responsible only the owner?
It is just another example of John Mara's complete incompetence in running a business he never had to earn, but was dropped in his lap.
loses control of the situation, he's not getting fired in season, and certainly not right now.
Mara will give Daboll (and Schoen) his full public support, right up to the press conference announcing the firing. Anything he says publicly is to be taken with a grain of salt.
Before the season, Mara said he wanted to see improvement. That's as negative as he's going to get.
a struggling team by changing the coach and gm every 2 years because you then end up constantly having a completely new plan and starting from scratch every year. It takes time to build a winning team. Can't be pandering to fans like that, we generally don't know shit and make emotional decisions.
Oh please. You also don't turn it around by hiring incompetents or mediocrities and then leaving them in charge.
My gut tells me that we will likely lose on Monday night to the Steelers in Pittsburgh. 2-6 awaits and there will be no run towards the playoffs this year.
But Daboll and Schoen need another year to draft and develop. Year 1 2022 killed us on two levels: a poor draft and poor choices, namely not keeping the 5th-year option "somehow" on Jones, which led to a successful year and big contract.
The successful year led to more bad choices because, in truth, we weren't good at all after a fast start. The playoff win was an aberration.
The 2023 draft looks ok and 2024 is looking to be a superb one.
Lets see how we do as the year goes on and as long as the team doesn't quit on Daboll I see no issue retaining him for another year.
My gut tells me that we will likely lose on Monday night to the Steelers in Pittsburgh. 2-6 awaits and there will be no run towards the playoffs this year.
But Daboll and Schoen need another year to draft and develop. Year 1 2022 killed us on two levels: a poor draft and poor choices, namely not keeping the 5th-year option "somehow" on Jones, which led to a successful year and big contract.
The successful year led to more bad choices because, in truth, we weren't good at all after a fast start. The playoff win was an aberration.
The 2023 draft looks ok and 2024 is looking to be a superb one.
Lets see how we do as the year goes on and as long as the team doesn't quit on Daboll I see no issue retaining him for another year.
Time will tell on the draft. Everyone thought last year's draft was the cat's ass, and now Banks may have gone around the bend, Hyatt has done nothing, Gray a fumbling bum, Schmitz has struggled, Riley a turnstyle etc etc etc
Let's see some of these guys put together 2 or 3 good seasons in a row.
That is the exact point and the problem with having McDonnell where he is. You know that regardless of what the org chart says, he sees his real boss as John Mara.
If you are John Mara and you actually believe Tim McDonnell is brilliant and a widely respected personnel guy around the league, why isn't he the GM? Why do you put someone else in that chair and then saddle him with a relative of the owner who technically works for him, but in reality is responsible only the owner?
It is just another example of John Mara's complete incompetence in running a business he never had to earn, but was dropped in his lap.
To me there's a simple solution and that is Tim leaving the pro-personnel department to work under John. I don't think that will happen because John likes having a "mole" in there, just another sign of a dysfunctional franchise.
That is the exact point and the problem with having McDonnell where he is. You know that regardless of what the org chart says, he sees his real boss as John Mara.
Correction: Tim McDonnell does not see John Mara as his boss. His mom is just as much of an owner as John Mara is. McDonnell sees himself as his own boss.
Where there is no talent, patience is nothing more than a self-preservation crutch for the indecisive, the ill-informed, the congenitally obtuse and the delusionally myopic.
We don't need more time on Schoen and Daboll. If the disastrous record, nauseating on field performance and now apparent loss of the locker room isn't enough, how about the two worst decisions in Giants history in the DJ contract and the handling of Barkley? Their credibility is shot. Every future decision will be second guessed with a degree of cynicism that now eclipses that reserved for the likes of Gettleman and Judge.
The fact that Mara can't see this is ridiculous but not surprising. Does he really believe his comments to support Schoen and Daboll will somehow assuage the growing malcontent when the growing malcontent is directly attributable to the rock bottom judgment of these two guys? What happened to his expectation of sixty days ago when he needed to see progress and a "big step forward"?
The only two things that matter now are 1) trading away as many assets as possible in the next ten days to accumulate 2025 draft capital and 2) benching DJ asap to preclude any possible injury settlement risk. Everything else is just gaslighting nonsense.
It’s really hard to gauge a team with a bad qb,
Add a qb and I think we would all start feeling a lot better about a lot of players around here
Why do you separate Schoen and Daboll from the fact there is no QB?
What examples can you cite of a team that stuck it with ineptitude for a few seasons and then finally hit it big with a turnaround in Y4?
It’s really hard to gauge a team with a bad qb,
Add a qb and I think we would all start feeling a lot better about a lot of players around here
Oh great more of the “we cant evaluate Jones without an OL/WR, etc “ nonsense
Otherwise enjoy losing another 10+ years
Mara owns the team and like EVERY owner it's his job to answer these types of questions... If you knew anything about football you would know he's one of the LEAST hands on owners in the league, despite the FAKE narrative found on these forums...
But, 2-5, in most games might be far different than being destroyed , 0 for in the division and sitting at 3-12 late in the season.
Starting to get an idea where we will be going QB wise after the season- maybe even at the deadline..
Coughlin after 2006 is another example.
But, 2-5, in most games might be far different than being destroyed , 0 for in the division and sitting at 3-12 late in the season.
Starting to get an idea where we will be going QB wise after the season- maybe even at the deadline..
But why risk the injury guarantee? That would make their jobs more difficult next year having to deal with a $45M Jones cap hit.
Your example is 1971?
Quote:
The Steelers in 1971. The owners have since admitted they considered firing Chuck Noll after a third straight losing season, but decided they were seeing progress. The rest is history.
Coughlin after 2006 is another example.
Tom Coughlin is not an example here. The Giants were on a solid upward trajectory as the team improved from 4-12 before him to 6-10 with a rebuild spearheaded by the Eli trade and then an 11-5 NFC East division title and then an 8-8 wild card appearance that had a last second FG loss on the road to the Eagles
That team had back to back playoffs and a clear foundation of star players Strahan, Toomer, Tiki, Shockey, Plaxico, Pierce, Osi and a younger core coming up with Tuck, Jacobs around Eli who went from 6 TDs to 24 TDs back to bavk years
Accorsi told the team after the Philly loss there was a “championship in this room”
They werent an inept team scoring no TDs and getting whacked week in and week out that could only beat other bad teams
Things will be much different if this team is 4-13 and 0-6 in the NFC East.
And the sad reality is it’s not even the poor record (again). The Giants didn’t belong on the same field as the Eagles on Sunday. Not remotely competitive against one of our arch rivals, who could have score 50 or 60 if they wanted to run it up
I don’t want to speak for others, but as a fan I can handle losing. I want to see the Giants competitive, and showing signs they’ll be better in the future
Right now the QB and coach are worse in year 3 than they were in year 1
Quote:
The Steelers in 1971. The owners have since admitted they considered firing Chuck Noll after a third straight losing season, but decided they were seeing progress. The rest is history.
Your example is 1971?
You’re asking for evidence with a tiny data set. I thought the example was germane. You think Steelers fan thought Noll was a good coach after the team closed the season by dropping 5 of 6 games to end 1970? Certainly not. But yet there he is, in Canton.
Given the QB play we're seeing right now, I can't get over telling Russell Wilson to take a hike.
-Was it because they were hoping to draft a QB? well, they failed at it, so not a positive mark in their favor.
-Was it because they paid Jones $40 million and wanted to salvage some value? THat's sounds like being overly prideful/buying into sunk cost fallacy, so not good either.
-Was it because they thought Jones was 100 percent better than WIlson? So laughably bad that it basically deserves no comment and indicates Schoen/the org thinks like a segment of the fanbase that has been wrong about everything since 2017.
Basically nothing here makes me feel good.
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
I agree with you. This was about getting Jones a supporting cast and to assess his performance. I think Daboll has shined the light on the deficiency at QB and will continue to do so to prove to the brass that this is not going to cut it and a change must be made after this year. The one aspect of this they have to be careful weighing is how much you play him in respect to the injury clause if they want to part ways after this season.
Quote:
Keep Daboll and Schoen, change out DJ
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
You're most likely right. This HK clip confirms it. "This is the year for Daniel." Wasting time. Link - ( New Window )
That clip is a great insight into the utter chaos and dysfunction of the New York Giants.
The idiot relative taking the GM to task for losing a RB who was the foundational piece of a terrible offense. The GM being defensive - in a way that makes it sound like he didn't want to pay the QB $40M and is throwing that back in the face of the idiot relative who was part of that decision.
All of the culinating in the 2024 strategy, which is The Year of Daniel Jones. Not the team, not the 52 other players...Daniel Jones. We have to help Daniel!!!
I'll say this, if you were willing to be overly patient with Jones, you at least owe Daboll a year with a QB he feels comfortable with.
Mike Vrabel is sitting there unemployed. Don't tell me John Mara pulls out all the stops to win.
Who is telling you John Mara pulls out all the stops to win?
Daboll's play calling and comments in pressers almost feel to me like he's been trying to "prove" to Mara how bad Jones is.
I wouldn't be shocked to learn that there was a "listen, you're not getting a QB this year but we won't hold it against you if Jones is what tanks the team" type deal with Mara/Schoen and Daboll.
Mara is a petulant child who reacts emotionally to the a) the data points he likes, and b) the most recent data point. He keeps hiring and firing people so often it is difficult to understand if he is just terrible at hiring, or too impatient (maybe both).
Mara is to incompetent, emotional and reactive to run a franchise well. Whether he fires Schoen and/or Daboll at season end is almost irrelevant. Until there are intelligent adults running this team, you can just expect more of the same.
Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, Schoen, Daboll...all just symptoms of the problem - weak and incompetent leadership.
Quote:
In comment 16658886 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Keep Daboll and Schoen, change out DJ
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
You're most likely right. This HK clip confirms it. "This is the year for Daniel." Wasting time. Link - ( New Window )
That clip is a great insight into the utter chaos and dysfunction of the New York Giants.
The idiot relative taking the GM to task for losing a RB who was the foundational piece of a terrible offense. The GM being defensive - in a way that makes it sound like he didn't want to pay the QB $40M and is throwing that back in the face of the idiot relative who was part of that decision.
All of the culinating in the 2024 strategy, which is The Year of Daniel Jones. Not the team, not the 52 other players...Daniel Jones. We have to help Daniel!!!
Yeah, there's a passive aggressiveness from Schoen in this that is not endearing. Well, fine if you want to put it all on Jones to show everyone that he's not the answer, but then you shuold've either not even entertained starting him in 2022 or just walk away from the negotiating table in 2023. WTF was the Mara family going to do in either of those scenarios?
2- Schoen wants a new QB (hence all the scouting) but did not want to fire a bullet at a tier 2 prospect this year because of Maras guidance. Note, we will draft that caliber of prospect this year. I think Schoen may have thought that Daniel is ok but not a guy you can really win with. His perspective is the hardest to figure out.
3- Daboll has been out on Jones for a while but has minimal influence. He's taking the "prove Daniel can't play" role very seriously this year, after much regret for the system he designed in 2022
This is all very stupid obviously. But the Giants are a stupid organization and are likely to remain so for a long time.
I wouldn't be shocked to learn that there was a "listen, you're not getting a QB this year but we won't hold it against you if Jones is what tanks the team" type deal with Mara/Schoen and Daboll.
That’s what I believe. I also think Schoen and Daboll then went quiet conspiracy mode into a soft tank.
How to explain the fact that Greg Joseph remains the kicker? He missed his first two FGs, which were makeable. Then against the Eagles, he had a pretty easy one that he almost missed. I can’t imagine any situation in the NFL where a kicker with that debut wouldn’t have been already replaced.
Anyone have an explanation for Joseph continuing to be on the roster?
It’s been 3 years.
So you would think there would be some examples amongst all the bad/losing teams every year and over the years of this playing out.
The scenario is a team that had its first year being the best and got worse each year. They haven’t even posted a double-digit regular season win total. They don’t even have a young QB in place that is showing signs of growing into a star. They don’t even have any foundational pieces that they have brought in (Lawrence & Thomas were a previous regime) . Potentially Nabers or Burns I guess? They don’t even have any discernible identity to show what they are building. They don’t even have a stable coaching staff as it was replaced after 2 seasons. They have whiffed on high draft choices like Neal.
We are largely getting blown out by every good team we faced and that was even in 2022 (Eagles twice, Cowboys, Lions, Seattle) . This has continued each season (Seattle, Dallas, SF, Saints, ) to this year (Vikings, Bengals, Eagles)
So where is an example of a regime that was losing, floundering and shown signs of serious ineptitude without a progressing young core that went on to this great success that vindicated the ownership’s patience?
But I want to concede your bigger point, HardTruth. I looked through pro football reference and most 3rd year coaches who survive make the playoffs that 3rd year and the 3rd years who don’t but are retained - a small sample size - mostly are fired during/after the 4th.
Mara is a petulant child who reacts emotionally to the a) the data points he likes, and b) the most recent data point. He keeps hiring and firing people so often it is difficult to understand if he is just terrible at hiring, or too impatient (maybe both).
Mara is to incompetent, emotional and reactive to run a franchise well. Whether he fires Schoen and/or Daboll at season end is almost irrelevant. Until there are intelligent adults running this team, you can just expect more of the same.
Gettleman, McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, Schoen, Daboll...all just symptoms of the problem - weak and incompetent leadership.
This is where I'm at. I want to bring Schoen and Daboll back, not so much because I think they're awesome. I think they're fine. But I also think they are probably better than the next people we'd hire and that they can learn and improve. It's 1st time jobs for both of them so they will be learning things about the role. But perhaps more importantly they are leaving about how to navigate amongst the idiots that actually run this franchise.
2- Schoen wants a new QB (hence all the scouting) but did not want to fire a bullet at a tier 2 prospect this year because of Maras guidance. Note, we will draft that caliber of prospect this year. I think Schoen may have thought that Daniel is ok but not a guy you can really win with. His perspective is the hardest to figure out.
3- Daboll has been out on Jones for a while but has minimal influence. He's taking the "prove Daniel can't play" role very seriously this year, after much regret for the system he designed in 2022
This is all very stupid obviously. But the Giants are a stupid organization and are likely to remain so for a long time.
Yeah, the conclusion I get is that everyone involved is acting kind of stupid and petty, and it's centered around a QB who has hovered around 26th best for his career who had previously sunk another regime. Hard to conceptualize.
This is where I'm at. I want to bring Schoen and Daboll back, not so much because I think they're awesome. I think they're fine. But I also think they are probably better than the next people we'd hire and that they can learn and improve. It's 1st time jobs for both of them so they will be learning things about the role. But perhaps more importantly they are leaving about how to navigate amongst the idiots that actually run this franchise.
My hope is that Mara and McDonnell were absolutely pushing Schoen to sign and win with Jones. If so, there is a chance both will now realize they were very, very wrong in their evaluation of Jones and put their assessments where they belong - on a fan message board.
(Op Ed) - Given McDonnell's obvious annoyance at Schoen in that clip, my guess is he is part of the reason John loves Jones so much and clings to this "we ruined him" mindset. I think McDonnell sold him on Jones being a great player and now McDonnell can't walk that back. Losing Barkley exposed his error even more, and explains Schoen's "We aren't paying the QB $40M/year to hand off to a 12M/year RB" comment,
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This is where I'm at. I want to bring Schoen and Daboll back, not so much because I think they're awesome. I think they're fine. But I also think they are probably better than the next people we'd hire and that they can learn and improve. It's 1st time jobs for both of them so they will be learning things about the role. But perhaps more importantly they are leaving about how to navigate amongst the idiots that actually run this franchise.
My hope is that Mara and McDonnell were absolutely pushing Schoen to sign and win with Jones. If so, there is a chance both will now realize they were very, very wrong in their evaluation of Jones and put their assessments where they belong - on a fan message board.
(Op Ed) - Given McDonnell's obvious annoyance at Schoen in that clip, my guess is he is part of the reason John loves Jones so much and clings to this "we ruined him" mindset. I think McDonnell sold him on Jones being a great player and now McDonnell can't walk that back. Losing Barkley exposed his error even more, and explains Schoen's "We aren't paying the QB $40M/year to hand off to a 12M/year RB" comment,
People talk about the "can't fire a relative" thing with O'Donnell like its the biggest problem with him having his position and it isn't. The biggest problem is that O'Donnell represents another mouthpiece for John that is dead in the middle of the pro personnel department. This would be fine if John and Tim had any track record of success and good decisions, but its the opposite.
In other words, Schoen has an employee that's more loyal to his inept boss than he is to Joe. That isn't a good situation for the franchise.
But I want to concede your bigger point, HardTruth. I looked through pro football reference and most 3rd year coaches who survive make the playoffs that 3rd year and the 3rd years who don’t but are retained - a small sample size - mostly are fired during/after the 4th.
Fassel is an interesting example as he did decline each of his 3 seasons. 10-5-1 and a NFC East division title to 8-8 and then 7-9 and no playoffs for 2 years. They even had acquired Collins for a QB and he wasn’t good at 2-5 with 8 TDs to 11 INts
The Giants did seem to have a strong defensive core with Strahan, Sehorn, Armstead and Hammer as an identity and top unit
But they also lost last 3 and 6 of last 8.
So this is a pretty good example I think.
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In comment 16658886 PatersonPlank said:
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Keep Daboll and Schoen, change out DJ
This also plays into my feeling that Daboll was told to play Jones this year and see if he could make it work with him. If not then he can move on next season, but his job would be safe.
Just a feeling I get.
You're most likely right. This HK clip confirms it. "This is the year for Daniel." Wasting time. Link - ( New Window )
That clip is a great insight into the utter chaos and dysfunction of the New York Giants.
The idiot relative taking the GM to task for losing a RB who was the foundational piece of a terrible offense. The GM being defensive - in a way that makes it sound like he didn't want to pay the QB $40M and is throwing that back in the face of the idiot relative who was part of that decision.
All of the culinating in the 2024 strategy, which is The Year of Daniel Jones. Not the team, not the 52 other players...Daniel Jones. We have to help Daniel!!!
Sounds like the kind of dysfunction commonly found in mom and pop shops to be very honest.
If you are John Mara and you actually believe Tim McDonnell is brilliant and a widely respected personnel guy around the league, why isn't he the GM? Why do you put someone else in that chair and then saddle him with a relative of the owner who technically works for him, but in reality is responsible only the owner?
It is just another example of John Mara's complete incompetence in running a business he never had to earn, but was dropped in his lap.
Mara will give Daboll (and Schoen) his full public support, right up to the press conference announcing the firing. Anything he says publicly is to be taken with a grain of salt.
Before the season, Mara said he wanted to see improvement. That's as negative as he's going to get.
But Daboll and Schoen need another year to draft and develop. Year 1 2022 killed us on two levels: a poor draft and poor choices, namely not keeping the 5th-year option "somehow" on Jones, which led to a successful year and big contract.
The successful year led to more bad choices because, in truth, we weren't good at all after a fast start. The playoff win was an aberration.
The 2023 draft looks ok and 2024 is looking to be a superb one.
Lets see how we do as the year goes on and as long as the team doesn't quit on Daboll I see no issue retaining him for another year.
But Daboll and Schoen need another year to draft and develop. Year 1 2022 killed us on two levels: a poor draft and poor choices, namely not keeping the 5th-year option "somehow" on Jones, which led to a successful year and big contract.
The successful year led to more bad choices because, in truth, we weren't good at all after a fast start. The playoff win was an aberration.
The 2023 draft looks ok and 2024 is looking to be a superb one.
Lets see how we do as the year goes on and as long as the team doesn't quit on Daboll I see no issue retaining him for another year.
Let's see some of these guys put together 2 or 3 good seasons in a row.
Lets see how we do as the year goes on and as long as the team doesn't quit on Daboll I see no issue retaining him for another year.
This is the essence of being a Giants fan these days. The bar is to keep the coach as long as the team is trying, lying this is pop warner.
Oh, and we know at least one of the 2023 draft pick is already starting to quit...
22 was nothing to write home about.
23 ditto.
24 looks good right now, but we've been down this road before.
At best Schoen/Daboll get a meh grade in the draft. Not good enough to save their bacon if other considerations weigh against them.
Maybe they do bench Jones. Not saying they're going to "tank", but maybe they shut down some key guys later in the season to play younger players.
They know they need the QB to buy them more time.
If you are John Mara and you actually believe Tim McDonnell is brilliant and a widely respected personnel guy around the league, why isn't he the GM? Why do you put someone else in that chair and then saddle him with a relative of the owner who technically works for him, but in reality is responsible only the owner?
It is just another example of John Mara's complete incompetence in running a business he never had to earn, but was dropped in his lap.
To me there's a simple solution and that is Tim leaving the pro-personnel department to work under John. I don't think that will happen because John likes having a "mole" in there, just another sign of a dysfunctional franchise.
Correction: Tim McDonnell does not see John Mara as his boss. His mom is just as much of an owner as John Mara is. McDonnell sees himself as his own boss.
We don't need more time on Schoen and Daboll. If the disastrous record, nauseating on field performance and now apparent loss of the locker room isn't enough, how about the two worst decisions in Giants history in the DJ contract and the handling of Barkley? Their credibility is shot. Every future decision will be second guessed with a degree of cynicism that now eclipses that reserved for the likes of Gettleman and Judge.
The fact that Mara can't see this is ridiculous but not surprising. Does he really believe his comments to support Schoen and Daboll will somehow assuage the growing malcontent when the growing malcontent is directly attributable to the rock bottom judgment of these two guys? What happened to his expectation of sixty days ago when he needed to see progress and a "big step forward"?
The only two things that matter now are 1) trading away as many assets as possible in the next ten days to accumulate 2025 draft capital and 2) benching DJ asap to preclude any possible injury settlement risk. Everything else is just gaslighting nonsense.