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| Quote: |
| WBG84 @WBG84 "The NFL is largely cool on the 2025 QB class right now. That isn't to say the first round will be devoid of QBs. I suspect that we could have five first-rounders if all the top QBs declare. But this class is viewed far less favorably than the 2024 group." - @FieldYates #NFLDraft |
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thats not a very high bar. The goal is to get a QB you can win consistently with and compete for SBs.
No one said that's the goal. Just illustrates the point though. A rookie 8 games in, and we're still spinning the Jones wheels.
I would love to have Nix and his future potential on this team right now, but let's pump the brakes a little. Jones had a pretty good rookie year, and there were many on this board (including me) giddy about the future. We all know how that is turning out.
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In comment 16666310 Go Terps said:
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Another thing you could see from miles away: fans rationalizing the 2025 QB class once the Giants didn't take one in 2024. And if the Giants don't take one in 2025, that tune will change to "well the class wasn't that good anyway".
The Giants should take two quarterbacks in this upcoming draft. It doesn't mean it was smart to take Nabers in 2024; it wasn't.
I can agree with this for sure. Take a QB in round 1, and then another in 3 or 4.
They'll be QBs in the first round that can help us. We need to scout and get the right one. There isn't a consensus #1 in 2025, but I think there will be multiple with similar grades to the QBs we had a shot at in 2024; Penis, Nix, JJ.
If we don't take a QB, it will be a joke.
The problem is there's no reason to trust the Giants' grades on QBs. These are the same people that paid Daniel Jones.
They aren't going to draft two QBs. They may not even draft one. Is there a QB in this draft worthy of their full bloom love? Because that's what it's going to take.
You continue the faulty logic
They re-signed Daniel Jones, therefore they cannot be trusted to draft and develop a QB
1. The fact Daniel Jones played so well in 2022 is a credit (not reason to criticize) Daboll
2. They picked 25th in the 2023 draft, who should they have taken?
3. The 2025 draft seems to have several guys with "first round talent" that is at least arguably equivalent to JJM, Penix and Nix as prospects
Interesting way of looking at it. Problem is the Giants will still be looking at someone the caliber of Nix or lower. I’m not yet convinced that Nix is better than Jones. If the 2025 draft class grades out like 2019 draft class, and the Giants are picking 6th, they will be getting the 2nd best QB in the class. How did that work out in 2019?
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In comment 16666337 IchabodGiant said:
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In comment 16666310 Go Terps said:
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Another thing you could see from miles away: fans rationalizing the 2025 QB class once the Giants didn't take one in 2024. And if the Giants don't take one in 2025, that tune will change to "well the class wasn't that good anyway".
The Giants should take two quarterbacks in this upcoming draft. It doesn't mean it was smart to take Nabers in 2024; it wasn't.
I can agree with this for sure. Take a QB in round 1, and then another in 3 or 4.
They'll be QBs in the first round that can help us. We need to scout and get the right one. There isn't a consensus #1 in 2025, but I think there will be multiple with similar grades to the QBs we had a shot at in 2024; Penis, Nix, JJ.
If we don't take a QB, it will be a joke.
The problem is there's no reason to trust the Giants' grades on QBs. These are the same people that paid Daniel Jones.
They aren't going to draft two QBs. They may not even draft one. Is there a QB in this draft worthy of their full bloom love? Because that's what it's going to take.
You continue the faulty logic
They re-signed Daniel Jones, therefore they cannot be trusted to draft and develop a QB
1. The fact Daniel Jones played so well in 2022 is a credit (not reason to criticize) Daboll
2. They picked 25th in the 2023 draft, who should they have taken?
3. The 2025 draft seems to have several guys with "first round talent" that is at least arguably equivalent to JJM, Penix and Nix as prospects
That's really the key. How do next year's top guys compare to the guys that were available to the Giants? How they compare to Williams, Daniels, and Maye is kind of irrelevant.
If they grade out similarly or better, then taken as a whole, the two year package of players may ultimately be better (i.e., Nabers + 2025 QB vs. Penix/McCarthy and 2025 Other).
Lets not say how impressive he has been...lol
Against SD after three quarter he had 35 yards and built his stats when the game was essentially over.
Outside the raiders and Panthers game:
171 yards per game
3 TDs (1 Td if you discount his 2 garbage time TDs against LA)
5 INTs
59% completion percentage
Now before anyone gets into these numbers - many of you discounted Jones rookie year totals cause he padded his tats against the worst defenses in the league. So if we did that with Jones, we sure as hell should should do it with Nix.
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In comment 16666343 Go Terps said:
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In comment 16666337 IchabodGiant said:
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In comment 16666310 Go Terps said:
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Another thing you could see from miles away: fans rationalizing the 2025 QB class once the Giants didn't take one in 2024. And if the Giants don't take one in 2025, that tune will change to "well the class wasn't that good anyway".
The Giants should take two quarterbacks in this upcoming draft. It doesn't mean it was smart to take Nabers in 2024; it wasn't.
I can agree with this for sure. Take a QB in round 1, and then another in 3 or 4.
They'll be QBs in the first round that can help us. We need to scout and get the right one. There isn't a consensus #1 in 2025, but I think there will be multiple with similar grades to the QBs we had a shot at in 2024; Penis, Nix, JJ.
If we don't take a QB, it will be a joke.
The problem is there's no reason to trust the Giants' grades on QBs. These are the same people that paid Daniel Jones.
They aren't going to draft two QBs. They may not even draft one. Is there a QB in this draft worthy of their full bloom love? Because that's what it's going to take.
You continue the faulty logic
They re-signed Daniel Jones, therefore they cannot be trusted to draft and develop a QB
1. The fact Daniel Jones played so well in 2022 is a credit (not reason to criticize) Daboll
2. They picked 25th in the 2023 draft, who should they have taken?
3. The 2025 draft seems to have several guys with "first round talent" that is at least arguably equivalent to JJM, Penix and Nix as prospects
That's really the key. How do next year's top guys compare to the guys that were available to the Giants? How they compare to Williams, Daniels, and Maye is kind of irrelevant.
If they grade out similarly or better, then taken as a whole, the two year package of players may ultimately be better (i.e., Nabers + 2025 QB vs. Penix/McCarthy and 2025 Other).
Yes
And shoring up the OL and getting a true #1 WR makes this a good team for a rookie QB to play for
And you'll hear "we didn't have a high grade on any of the QB's" as the excuse
Lets not say how impressive he has been...lol
Against SD after three quarter he had 35 yards and built his stats when the game was essentially over.
Outside the raiders and Panthers game:
171 yards per game
3 TDs (1 Td if you discount his 2 garbage time TDs against LA)
5 INTs
59% completion percentage
Now before anyone gets into these numbers - many of you discounted Jones rookie year totals cause he padded his tats against the worst defenses in the league. So if we did that with Jones, we sure as hell should should do it with Nix.
Daniel Jones stat padding his rookie year only gets discounted because he’s never done anything close to similar since, and the supporters of Jones always say how good his rookie year was.
We’ll see if Nix can replicate those performances in non stay padding situations. It’s too early to discount Nix’s performances, whether stat padding or not
With this mindset, this is how you trot out Jones for 6 years. So, improving at QB isn't enough - have to wait until you find an all-pro. All while Jones remains the starter.
We still have 2 more months of games to be played in the college season for the real draft analysts to study game film.
We also don’t know which prospects will stay in school ( Milroe and Nussmeier as examples).
2024 QB class was excellent and deep. 2025 QB class no comparison for sure.
I do believe the Giants will draft a QB and sign a vet FA for the 2025 season.
I see the Giants moving on from Jones after the bye week. I hope !!!
We just need to let this play out and be optimistic
Now before anyone gets into these numbers - many of you discounted Jones rookie year totals cause he padded his tats against the worst defenses in the league. So if we did that with Jones, we sure as hell should should do it with Nix.
If Bo Nix stays on DJ's career trajectory, he won't be 19% of Denver's cap in his sixth year.
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thats not a very high bar. The goal is to get a QB you can win consistently with and compete for SBs.
With this mindset, this is how you trot out Jones for 6 years. So, improving at QB isn't enough - have to wait until you find an all-pro. All while Jones remains the starter.
"The draft is a crapshoot"
ALSO
"You can only draft a QB if you're certain he's going to win the Super Bowl.
This isn’t new
And even better news, its just as strong if not better than past years WRs
Are you saying the 2025 WR class is good?
Outside of McMillan, I don't see a deep crop. All of the high value guys are younger. If anything, it's a good draft to need a RB.
Why do we keep saying this?
Three things - 1. Will Arch Manning even turn out to be a Franchise-type guy? He hasnt played enough yet to even figure that out, 2. Where will we even be drafting? What if we bring in a Vet and he wins 9 to 10 games?, 3. Why would we put that much pressure on another Manning, even if we could draft him? How does he live up to his Uncle's success?
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thats not a very high bar. The goal is to get a QB you can win consistently with and compete for SBs.
With this mindset, this is how you trot out Jones for 6 years. So, improving at QB isn't enough - have to wait until you find an all-pro. All while Jones remains the starter.
Way to put words into my mouth. Not even close to anything I even remotely said.
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and tell us which all world QB you would have picked at 6 instead of Nabers??? Your refusal to do so tell us that you know there was no QB worthy of the 6 pick.
I must have said a thousand times that I'd have drafted Penix. If we had I think we'd be sitting at 4-4 or better right now, let alone what it would mean for the future.
But I'd have drafted any of Penix, McCarthy, Nix, Latu, Murphy, Verse, Latham, or Fashanu over Nabers.
I wasn't referring to you.....you've made your itntentions well known.
But do you honestly feel that all of those QB's will be better than anyone we might get in this years draft?
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Now before anyone gets into these numbers - many of you discounted Jones rookie year totals cause he padded his tats against the worst defenses in the league. So if we did that with Jones, we sure as hell should should do it with Nix.
If Bo Nix stays on DJ's career trajectory, he won't be 19% of Denver's cap in his sixth year.
What does that have to do with comparing how Nix and Jones played their rookie year.
People started threads this week showing how great Nix has been over a months time, and I just showed how faulty that logic could be. Because we used the reasons why Jones rookie season wasnt nearly as good as the stats showed.
Daniel Jones stat padding his rookie year only gets discounted because he’s never done anything close to similar since, and the supporters of Jones always say how good his rookie year was.
We’ll see if Nix can replicate those performances in non stay padding situations. It’s too early to discount Nix’s performances, whether stat padding or not
This is correct. I agree with you. Its WAYYYYYYY too early saying that Nix is or was the right pick. Some posters are saying hes already better than Jones cause he had 2 good games against probably the two worst teams in the league. Its way too early to say that.
Williams and Daniels have been difference makers and played well agaisnt good teams. I see a big difference between the 3 of them.
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In comment 16666385 JT039 said:
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thats not a very high bar. The goal is to get a QB you can win consistently with and compete for SBs.
With this mindset, this is how you trot out Jones for 6 years. So, improving at QB isn't enough - have to wait until you find an all-pro. All while Jones remains the starter.
Way to put words into my mouth. Not even close to anything I even remotely said.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. It's just the flaw that comes with that mindset and I don't doubt that's how NYG thinks.
There is no requirement that the next QB drafted has to be "the guy".
There is no requirement that the next QB drafted has to be "the guy".
EXACTLY. With the rookie wage scale, QBs should be treated like any other position.
Evan Neal for example. As soon as you realize he's not the guy, you bench him and start trying to find a replacement.
What we should have done with Jones years ago.
Drafting a QB doesn't guarantee success. But sticking with the wrong guy too long will guarantee failure.
There is no requirement that the next QB drafted has to be "the guy".
QB should be viewed as any other position. There are so little truly transcendent QBs that can carry a franchise. People talk like it's easy to find.
Schoen has acquired a new TE each offseason either through draft or trade. Yet with QB, there is this fear with drafting someone.
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The fundamental flaw in the system is drafting a quarterback and acting like he has to be "the guy". That may have been the case when the #1 overall pick QB instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league on a 6 year contract, but that has been eliminated with the rookie wage scale.
There is no requirement that the next QB drafted has to be "the guy".
QB should be viewed as any other position. There are so little truly transcendent QBs that can carry a franchise. People talk like it's easy to find.
Schoen has acquired a new TE each offseason either through draft or trade. Yet with QB, there is this fear with drafting someone.
That's because the Giants continue to view the position like it's a US senator.
So I ask for the millionth time: who is the guy in the 2025 class that is going to make their hearts go pitter patter?
The only guy I could see is Allar.
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In comment 16666460 Go Terps said:
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The fundamental flaw in the system is drafting a quarterback and acting like he has to be "the guy". That may have been the case when the #1 overall pick QB instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league on a 6 year contract, but that has been eliminated with the rookie wage scale.
There is no requirement that the next QB drafted has to be "the guy".
QB should be viewed as any other position. There are so little truly transcendent QBs that can carry a franchise. People talk like it's easy to find.
Schoen has acquired a new TE each offseason either through draft or trade. Yet with QB, there is this fear with drafting someone.
That's because the Giants continue to view the position like it's a US senator.
So I ask for the millionth time: who is the guy in the 2025 class that is going to make their hearts go pitter patter?
The only guy I could see is Allar.
"The Giants" is not the same
Schoen and Daboll will get their guy
If this was the same ol Giants they would have drafted Odunze over Nabers
My point being is these QBs actually are pretty good, but they don't have the hype of last years class that was built up for YEARS. I mean we talked about 5 star Bo Nix when he was a FR at Auburn in 2004 20 years ago I believe. Don't quote me on the timing on that. They took all the talk and now people are like what do we have? We have a good class in Milroe, Bech, Ward, Sanders, Ewers, etc depending who comes out of course.
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In comment 16666436 Sean said:
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In comment 16666385 JT039 said:
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thats not a very high bar. The goal is to get a QB you can win consistently with and compete for SBs.
With this mindset, this is how you trot out Jones for 6 years. So, improving at QB isn't enough - have to wait until you find an all-pro. All while Jones remains the starter.
Way to put words into my mouth. Not even close to anything I even remotely said.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. It's just the flaw that comes with that mindset and I don't doubt that's how NYG thinks.
There’s a clear dinsticntion in saying finding a franchise QBs that helps you win games and finding an all pro.
We need a QB to help us win games - there’s about 12-15 now in the NFL that fall in that category. So drafting one should be doable. They don’t need to be all pros.
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In comment 16666460 Go Terps said:
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The fundamental flaw in the system is drafting a quarterback and acting like he has to be "the guy". That may have been the case when the #1 overall pick QB instantly became one of the highest paid players in the league on a 6 year contract, but that has been eliminated with the rookie wage scale.
There is no requirement that the next QB drafted has to be "the guy".
QB should be viewed as any other position. There are so little truly transcendent QBs that can carry a franchise. People talk like it's easy to find.
Schoen has acquired a new TE each offseason either through draft or trade. Yet with QB, there is this fear with drafting someone.
That's because the Giants continue to view the position like it's a US senator.
So I ask for the millionth time: who is the guy in the 2025 class that is going to make their hearts go pitter patter?
The only guy I could see is Allar.
If we still have the current regime (I would probably move on), I think Dabs will love the skill set that Sanders has.
There is no requirement that the next QB drafted has to be "the guy".
I agree, but when you have the #6 pick you want to have a pretty good chance of becoming "the guy". If we're talking about pipeline and small bets - definitely keep trying stuff, see if you can get lucky or even just get some decent cheap option. At #6 though, the opportunity cost is high. I'm looking for a 30-40% chance that the guy is "the guy" (ie a top 10-ish QB for multiple years).
What did the NFL think of Brady, and Purdy? For that matter, what did they think of Joe Montana (3rd round #82), Brett Favre (2nd round #33), Drew Brees (2nd round #32), Russell Wilson (3rd round #75), Joe Theismann (Round 4 #99)?
What did the NFL think of JaMarcus Russell, Michael Vick, David Carr, Carson Palmer, Sam Bradford, or Mitch Trubisky? All drafted as pick #1 or #2, no Super Bowl wins.
"The NFL" misses more than it hits early in Round 1. This is because to draft that high, you have to have a really bad team, and it's rare that a QB fixes that.
If we still have the current regime (I would probably move on), I think Dabs will love the skill set that Sanders has.
Daboll isn't making the call on QB. Neither is Schoen.
I'd bet my house that the Giants would not draft Sanders.
I agree, but when you have the #6 pick you want to have a pretty good chance of becoming "the guy". If we're talking about pipeline and small bets - definitely keep trying stuff, see if you can get lucky or even just get some decent cheap option. At #6 though, the opportunity cost is high. I'm looking for a 30-40% chance that the guy is "the guy" (ie a top 10-ish QB for multiple years).
Like Brady? Or Bart Starr? Or Joe Montana?
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If we still have the current regime (I would probably move on), I think Dabs will love the skill set that Sanders has.
Daboll isn't making the call on QB. Neither is Schoen.
I'd bet my house that the Giants would not draft Sanders.
Unfortunately I don’t think we’ll get to find out. I think we’ll have to trade up if we want him.
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If we still have the current regime (I would probably move on), I think Dabs will love the skill set that Sanders has.
Daboll isn't making the call on QB. Neither is Schoen.
I'd bet my house that the Giants would not draft Sanders.
I'm not trying to be patronizing here, but you seem like a pretty bright guy.
But I don't know how anyone could have watched "Hard Knocks" and concluded Schoen is not in the driver's seat for this organization with all personnel.
For example, when Mara is claiming he is having palpitations because Schoen may make a deal to move up to possibly acquire a QB, how is that not a convincing piece of evidence that Schoen is in charge?
And then Mara walks in Brown's office and recounts the same situation in 2004 when Accorsi decided to draft Eli. There was zero indication in that discussion that Mara made that call...
Or both.
Well, QB4 was right there for the taking in 2024. Let's see how things turn out. I doubt we're in position to get QB1 in 2025.
If true, he needs to go. If he can't identify what he's seeing in Jones, why should he be the one to pick the next franchise QB?
Schoen should have identified Jones as something close to that.
But in your scenario, I would have hoped Mara should/would have said then why not utilize the transition tag to sort out value. Or Franchise tag if he wanted to force the issue.
Well, Schoen convinced Mara to let Barkley, their "most popular" player, walk. And that guy actually put asses in seats and moved merchandise for Mara.
So, yes, per your example, I believe if Schoen had a plan that made sense to replace and transition from Jones, Mara doesn't interfere. But it was never going to get there because Schoen was a sold-on Jones, which is why he offered and signed him to $160M contract. If Mara was really running the show, I believe he would have compelled Schoen in 2022 to pick-up Jones's 5th year option. Why didn't that happen?
Obviously, this is all subjective...
Even though Daboll said publicly he was good and would be cleared for spring team practicing.
Such a scenario runs counter to everything I've observed with this team over many years. It's not how they operate.
Remember who had to be convinced to move on from Phil Simms and Kerry Collins. Those were not GM calls.
QB and head coach are both ownership-level calls. One of the few things Gettleman got right is that the GM of the New York Giants is support staff.